View Full Version : At last... (Audiolab) - part VII


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Joe P
25-10-11, 12:41 PM
John,

Do you expect the new Audiolab stock to hit the colonies around the same time as it becomes available in the UK?

Joe

Steven Toy
25-10-11, 12:42 PM
The CDQ as it is is still very good indeed though. It has does both visceral impact and subtlety with ease. Jack Johnson is currently very entertaining as well as helping to burn in a new mains transformer and brand new Sovtek KT120 output valves.

badgeratu
25-10-11, 12:43 PM
Hi Sergiox,

Any Transport that can be Clock-Locked to the MDAC - Old Arcams, Cambridge Audio CDT (Diskmagic), Deltec / DPA.

But these will be hard to find (working) these days, although I understand that DPA will add a "Clock-Lock" board to most CD players for GBP250... But I'm only going by what I hear via the Internet...

Otherwise, any transport that passes MDAC's Bit Perfect test.

We will have a matching "Transport device" within the next 6 months...

John
That's encouraging - I have an old 2002 Arcam FMJ DV27 that's in mint condition, which I wanted to use just as a disc transport for my pre-ordered M-DAC. It's a bit behind the times as a DVD player, but is still a beautiful piece of kit with a rock-solid disc transport.

John - do you know if this particular model has the ability to be clock-locked to the M-DAC? If so through which output - optical or coax?

PS: Can't wait for my M-DAC now! :)

PhilCTTE
25-10-11, 12:56 PM
HI PhilCTTE,

With the addition of the MDAC's upgrade PSU (with AV Bypass), I dont see why you could not use the MDAC in your AV System.

With the PSU/AV bypass - you AV system should work exactly as is does now - but with the advantage of higher quality audio in "Two Channel Stereo" Mode.

John
Thanks for your patience John

Just re-reading post 30#

"No the MDAC output will be directly Relay switched - so no extra active electronics - just connected to the MDAC's XLR outputs - then switched by relay to the "XLR / RCA" on the PSU "Bypass" outputs. Clean simple signal path. If you don’t need to use the PSU bypass function, then you would just connect the MDAC directly to your Power-Amps as usual.
Obviously the Single-end "Bypass" input is "actively" converted to Balance outputs / Buffered RCA outputs."

So would this infer that 2 channels from AV processor and 2 channels from MDAC switched via relay ?

The Marantz power amp requires 4 inputs in order to bi-wire my speakers. There's a confugration switch in the processor to duplicate the L to SBL and R to SBR. So I'd require a 4way bypass. I could unswitch the bi-amp option but would still require the 2 to output to 4 for the power amp.

I'm sure I'll get huge gains which ever way I implement the MDAC even if its only via 7.1 ch av bypass input on processor.

JohnW
25-10-11, 01:29 PM
That's encouraging - I have an old 2002 Arcam FMJ DV27 that's in mint condition, which I wanted to use just as a disc transport for my pre-ordered M-DAC. It's a bit behind the times as a DVD player, but is still a beautiful piece of kit with a rock-solid disc transport.

John - do you know if this particular model has the ability to be clock-locked to the M-DAC? If so through which output - optical or coax?

PS: Can't wait for my M-DAC now! :)

Hi badgeratu,

Is far as I'm aware, only the Arcam CD Transport can be Clock-Locked (using the Optical connections).

To isolate RF and Mains Hum products - I'd recommand using the Optical output. The MDAC will attenuate the Optical connection's higher level of Random Jitter.

John

bludragon
25-10-11, 02:30 PM
Thanks for your patience John

Just re-reading post 30#

"No the MDAC output will be directly Relay switched - so no extra active electronics - just connected to the MDAC's XLR outputs - then switched by relay to the "XLR / RCA" on the PSU "Bypass" outputs. Clean simple signal path. If you don’t need to use the PSU bypass function, then you would just connect the MDAC directly to your Power-Amps as usual.
Obviously the Single-end "Bypass" input is "actively" converted to Balance outputs / Buffered RCA outputs."

So would this infer that 2 channels from AV processor and 2 channels from MDAC switched via relay ?

The Marantz power amp requires 4 inputs in order to bi-wire my speakers. There's a confugration switch in the processor to duplicate the L to SBL and R to SBR. So I'd require a 4way bypass. I could unswitch the bi-amp option but would still require the 2 to output to 4 for the power amp.

I'm sure I'll get huge gains which ever way I implement the MDAC even if its only via 7.1 ch av bypass input on processor.

What sources do you want to have play through the power amp? Is it just the MDAC, or do you also want multi-channel video from your processor or other sources?

You could use the MDAC to drive the Marantz power amp directly. You just need some cables that split each channel into two, one for each input on the power amp.

Alternatively, if your processor has a stereo input, you could feed the MDAC into that.

The more complex setup is where you have both processor and MDAC connected directly into the power amp via a switch. The upcoming MDAC power supply will include that switch for you, but only for a stereo pair.

dlcastles
25-10-11, 02:30 PM
Hi John,
Can I tease some more information from your tease about the transport?! Will this new device have an Ethernet connection to enable it to stream music files?
Best, Duncan

Hi Steven Toy,

The Transport will be the same size as the MDAC,

John

PhilCTTE
25-10-11, 02:50 PM
What sources do you want to have play through the power amp? Is it just the MDAC, or do you also want multi-channel video from your processor or other sources?

You could use the MDAC to drive the Marantz power amp directly. You just need some cables that split each channel into two, one for each input on the power amp.

Alternatively, if your processor has a stereo input, you could feed the MDAC into that.

The more complex setup is where you have both processor and MDAC connected directly into the power amp via a switch. The upcoming MDAC power supply will include that switch for you, but only for a stereo pair.

Both MDAC and multi AV are required so the upcoming PSU with bypass would have been the way to go, if I wasn't bi-amping. Problem is the Marantz is a 8 ch power amp which requires a stereo signal from 4 inputs to utilise each power amp channel. I actually hadn't thought of a split cable if thats what you mean't. I will do some research on these ... cheers

vishnu737
25-10-11, 03:29 PM
Hi John,

Good to meet you at the show on Saturday.

Can you or Dominik give me some info, a few months ago Dominik gave me the following IR codes for the CDQ:

VIDEO sys 5, cmd 63
USB sys 20, cmd 101

These work fine, thanks

Can you let me know what the codes are for Volume up, Volume Down and Mute.

Will these codes also be the same for the DQ? If not can i have the above for that as well.

Also I have tried using the IR input on the back of the CDQ but this does not seem to work?

Thanks

Richard

Mr Ian
25-10-11, 10:54 PM
haha yes obviously a term I see to often on some of the other threads.

Not sure I'll be able to use the digital pre-amp of either DQ or MDAC in my Marantz AV setup , as I'm bi-amping. It uses FL, SBL and FR, SBR output from the processor to achieve this. Might have to get something built in order to split 2 channel into 4 :confused:

I was planning to try routing the digital signal from my DVD and Blu Ray players via the Mdac and on to the Processor to see if the re-clocking gave any improvement.

As I route the front outputs from the processor to the pre amp and then on to the power amp I cant see that I will be able to use the MDac pre amp feature. The analogue bypass ( on the PSU) sounded interesting but I dont think it going to work in this set up. I would need to tell the Mdac which digital signal to pass through then play the analogue pass through. Guess it would need something like play and record features some pre amps have. It would be great if there was a way :D :D

JohnW
25-10-11, 11:56 PM
I was planning to try routing the digital signal from my DVD and Blu Ray players via the Mdac and on to the Processor to see if the re-clocking gave any improvement.

As I route the front outputs from the processor to the pre amp and then on to the power amp I cant see that I will be able to use the MDac pre amp feature. The analogue bypass ( on the PSU) sounded interesting but I dont think it going to work in this set up. I would need to tell the Mdac which digital signal to pass through then play the analogue pass through. Guess it would need something like play and record features some pre amps have. It would be great if there was a way :D :D

Hi Mr Ian,

We can add a "work-around" in the software (somehow) meeting your requirement... Its a practical suggestion...

:)

John

JohnW
26-10-11, 12:02 AM
Hi John,

Good to meet you at the show on Saturday.

Can you or Dominik give me some info, a few months ago Dominik gave me the following IR codes for the CDQ:

VIDEO sys 5, cmd 63
USB sys 20, cmd 101

These work fine, thanks

Can you let me know what the codes are for Volume up, Volume Down and Mute.

Will these codes also be the same for the DQ? If not can i have the above for that as well.

Also I have tried using the IR input on the back of the CDQ but this does not seem to work?

Thanks

Richard

Hi Richard,

Very good to meet you and your dearest Wife at the show :) I'll bring Bobby and Co. next time.

As far as I'm aware (and I could be mistaken), there is no standard for the RC connection - so we have our own:-

Open Collector - Inverted Logic

Sleeve is Ground

Tip is Signel

No Power

Not sure if this helps, but we designed the RC loop really for our own Lakewest / Peachtree products - thus the Audiolab follows.

I'll ask Dom to post the full RC Code list

John

JohnW
26-10-11, 12:05 AM
Hi John,
Can I tease some more information from your tease about the transport?! Will this new device have an Ethernet connection to enable it to stream music files?
Best, Duncan

Are you bugging our conversations???? :) we where just talking about this last night....

Early days, but the "transport" will really be a "digital source component", so along with other features we are looking into DLNA streaming.

John

JohnW
26-10-11, 12:07 AM
John,

Do you expect the new Audiolab stock to hit the colonies around the same time as it becomes available in the UK?

Joe

Hi Joe,

Meeting UK's demains going to be a struggle - all bets are off about the rest of the world.

I've heard that a few distrubuters are not keen to stock the MDAC due to "Tight" margins... Dont even get me started!

John

PhilCTTE
26-10-11, 01:20 AM
@Mr Ian - This is my understanding. The ideal implementation for the ultimate SQ is to use the MDAC as a digital pre-amp. To route your main digital source for music (2ch) directly into the MDAC and then onto your power amp.

For those who have AV processors a PSU/bypass unit is planned so you can route the main analogue stereo output from your processor/pre into the PSU as well as the two channel output from the MDAC. If I am correct in reading earlier posts. Using the PSU to switch which input to use (via some sort of wired comms link from MDAC to PSU) and then send 2ch output from PSU unit onto power amp.

So following configurations are possible :

DVD AV 7ch > processor > PSU > Power amp.
SKY > processor > PSU > Power amp.
DVD Music 2ch > MDAC > PSU > Power amp.
Digitial Streamer > MDAC > PSU > Power Amp.

Ideally all AV processor's would have 2 channel digital output and we would not need the PSU switcher, but unfortunately most digital outputs I've seen are for digital recorders. Where you have to manually select one digital input source to output via an options menu and not a simple button on the remote. Which is a pain as everytime you switch between SKY / DVD and digital streamer you would have to set this as the input manually each time.

I guess if your digital source is a DVD player for music as well as AV you could possibly use 2 DVD outputs one into processor and one output into the MDAC. Or for those players which have internal decoding you would use the analogue 7.1 input on processor. Of course the input into the MDAC would have to be a stereo signal.

Of course this is all still in the design stages with John.

vishnu737
26-10-11, 01:31 AM
Hi Richard,

Very good to meet you and your dearest Wife at the show :) I'll bring Bobby and Co. next time.

As far as I'm aware (and I could be mistaken), there is no standard for the RC connection - so we have our own:-

Open Collector - Inverted Logic

Sleeve is Ground

Tip is Signel

No Power

Not sure if this helps, but we designed the RC loop really for our own Lakewest / Peachtree products - thus the Audiolab follows.

I'll ask Dom to post the full RC Code list

John

(She is my girlfriend by the way :) ), would you believe one of the reasons she came along with me was to see Bobby again....oh and to go to Harvey Nichols of course....for some reason she thinks shoes and handbags are more interesting than Hi-Fi! She does enjoy looking around the shows though.

Shame there is no standard for the RC connection, i just assumed they were all the same. I have just purchased a Global Cache unit to work with irule, it works when i directly connect it to my Onkyo processors RC input also i had a usb-uirt that connection also worked with other devices.
Any idea if i can do anything to get the GC unit to work with the CDQ/DQ (http://www.globalcache.com/products/itach/ip2irspecs/)

The RC code list will be really helpful

thanks

Richard

JohnW
26-10-11, 02:30 AM
Hi Richard,

Not much info about the Electrical interface of the GC unit, but if you send me your unit I can probe it + modify it to work with our RC interface loop,

John

JTC
26-10-11, 03:05 AM
Hi John, if you get a moment can you PM some contact details so that we can organise your visit around Christmastime (I told my wife about the dogs and she was thrilled and wants to know whether she can take them out for a walk with our sons and leave us 'sad hifi types' to it (!)). I got my CDQ last Friday and very fine it is indeed, a quality product indeed (even if I can't read the display during the day...)

vishnu737
26-10-11, 03:18 AM
Hi Richard,

Not much info about the Electrical interface of the GC unit, but if you send me your unit I can probe it + modify it to work with our RC interface loop,

John

Thanks for the offer, trouble is I was planning to daisy chain it, so GC out to Onkyo in, Onkyo out to DQ in, DQ out to IR emitter. I can probably get around it by using the ir blaster emitter for the DQ I wll know for sure once I get Dominik's RC code list and give it a try.

Even after our conversation on Saturday I think I will still go with the DQ I have on order, just fits in to my system better with the bypass/size etc and I am really happy with the CDQ sound quality I think you said that the DQ is slightly better so I will be more than happy with that.

Also with your talk of a new "transport" in the future when that is out i will probably upgrade to that, especially if it has DLNA streaming so would take the PC out of the loop. I know its early days but can you consider putting an XLR bypass in it as standard :)

thanks

Richard

arthur
26-10-11, 03:44 AM
Hi John, if you get a moment can you PM some contact details so that we can organise your visit around Christmastime (I told my wife about the dogs and she was thrilled and wants to know whether she can take them out for a walk with our sons and leave us 'sad hifi types' to it (!)). I got my CDQ last Friday and very fine it is indeed, a quality product indeed (even if I can't read the display during the day...)

Lo J. The upgraded screen is easy to read from about 25 feet (large) and about 15 feet(small) even in bright daylight.

ChrisPa
26-10-11, 03:58 AM
Lo J. The upgraded screen is easy to read from about 25 feet (large) and about 15 feet(small) even in bright daylight.YEMV

(Your Eyes May Vary) :)

arthur
26-10-11, 04:00 AM
YEMV

(Your Eyes May Vary) :)

Indeed, but mine are crap even with specticlaculars.

Without them I can't see it from 10 inches. :(

Vodnik
26-10-11, 04:51 AM
Hi John,

I hope you can find a way to help me! It's probably going to be a bit long post, but if you are not interested in my recent "audio adventures", then please just skip to the last paragraphs! I decided to post it here, not use your PM, as I think it may be interesting to read for others.

I'm located in Poland and I just had a really crazy last two weeks "HiFi-wise" :)

Here's how it went:
1. two weeks ago I received some unexpected money and decided spend at least some of it to improve my HiFi equipment.

2. because of my current home/family situation I can't listen through my speakers much (old Monitor Audio PMC 702), so I decided to improve my headphone setup first. I already had Sennheisers HD565, which I considered good at the time, but none of my devices used for listening stereo (Copland CDA-288 + TAG McLaren AV32R + Audiolab 8000P) had a headphone socket. My Pioneer AV Receiver has headphone socket, but using it as a headphone amp didn't seem to be a good idea - not practical and poor sounding.

3. So I quickly ordered Graham Slee Solo headphone amp. I quickly received it and it sounded sooo good! It actually sounded so good that I realized that my headphones are probably limiting factor now and Solo can only show its full worth with better cans.

4. So I quickly ordered AKG K701 headphones :) These also arrived quicky and what a difference they made! Wow!

5. At the same time I borrowed a HK made USB-SPDIF converter from my colleague to see what difference it makes connected to my media center PC instead of my standard SPDIF-to-onboard-soundcard connection. Wow again! It sounded so much better, really close to listening to CD player, even though the converter was not capable of asynch USB transfer.

6. So I quickly ordered a Musical Fidelity V-Link II (was going to order V-Link, but V-Link II has just arrived to UK retailers at the time) from a UK based Audio Affair online shop (as it is not available in Poland yet).

7. While waiting for the MF V-Link to arrive, I started to rediscover my entire collection of CDs and AKG headphones, when... my Copland CD has died on me... It was a very old unit and I had already invested some money in repairing it in the past, so this time I decided not to repair it anymore, but to replace it.

6. So I quickly ordered a 8200CD :) But it turned out that the online shop that took my order had an error on their website and did not have 8200CD in stock, but 8200CDQ instead. They offered to order 8200CD from me from their source (more about it later), but I would have to wait a week longer. Instead I decided to change my order and take the 8200CDQ.

7. CDQ arrived the next day and WOW! What a wonderful sound! Initially I connected it as a CD transport only (yeah, I know...), as this is how I used my Copland recently.

8. Then I started to test other ways to use the 8200CDQ and the results of these tests turned everything upside down...

Let me explain here what TMA AV32R was doing in my stereo setup. Some 11 years ago I was building a new stereo / AV setup and managed to buy AV32R at a good price (at that time in Poland a good price meant that I still paid more for it than I would in the UK... But it was before Poland joined the EU, when prices here got more in line with UK ones). Earlier I used Audiolab 8000S amp for stereo. I bought second hand another 8000S and one 8000P cheaply and used all of them as power amps only for AV32R (8000P for L/R and 2x8000S for C/SL/SR). At this time I already had a Copland CD and a decent DVD player. This setup served me well until early 2010 when I decided to upgrade my video experience to HD and bought a Bluray player. As AV32R is not capable to decode HD audio formats, I bought a Pioneer AV Receiver for video duties (and a set of new 6.1 speakers for it) and this way TMA AV32R was "degraded" to stereo DAC/pre-amp only, as it still did much better job with music than the Pioneer. At that time I really couldn't afford a AV Receiver good enough for both music and HD movie audio tasks... So I had two separate audio sets: one for movies and one for music (although it had a AV32R in it). Then a couple of weeks ago... see point 1. above :)

Getting back to the CDQ tests. As this post is already very long, I will just say that careful tests and comparisons with other equipment resulted in the following:
- Graham Slee Solo was sent back to the shop for a refund. No need for it whatsoever with CDQ, which to my ears sounds much better with AKGs!!!
- AV32R was retired completely from both DAC and pre-amp duties and will be sold as soon as I find someone interested in it.
- MF V-Link II was sent back to the UK shop for a refund as soon as it arrived - it became completely redundant.

Needless to say, I LOVE the CDQ!!! But what a crazy two weeks these were...


But not everything is so rosy... Two days ago I started reading this thread (focusing mainly on yours and Dominik's posts) and realized a few things:
- I received an old CDQ from the first production batch, w/o triggers...

- I received it from a Polish online shop, but they got it from the German distribution channel. This means that I cannot register it for extended warranty and can't expect Polish distributor to help me with software and hardware upgrades...

- Luckilly my unit was upgraded in Germany to 1.1A software and V86 servo, so at least it's not using the original mainboard software, but I have faulty servo soft...

- Chances of getting it upgraded with OLED/new transformer are slim using normal service channels (if it is even possible with the first batch sample?).

9. So now I decided to send my CDQ back to where I got it from and get a new one, preferably from a Polish distribution channel (or some other way that would leave the upgrade path open for me), as I now can not live without one :)


And here is where hopefully you could help me, John! I spoke to the Polish distributor (Horn Distribution) and they told me that they still have a significant stock of CDQ, which they got about three months ago. So they will not order any OLED CDQ anytime soon, if ever (not sure they will decide to order it at all for the Polish market). They actually were not even able to tell me if the devices they have are equipped with triggers or not!!! I also spoke to both their sales and service departments and they were completely unaware of OLED upgrade kit's existance... This does not sound optimistic for me, as I would really like to get the latest and greatest CDQ version now. How do you think, is there any way you could help me in getting the OLED CDQ here in Poland? Or at least an OLED/transformer upgrade kit? Preferably somehow through the Horn Distribution, so that they don't have issues with servicing it later? But I probably could pay for shipping from some UK source if that would be the only choice.

Regards,
Pawel

Gracey
26-10-11, 04:52 AM
Hi all,

I have just joined but have been reading this thread for a while.

I have an Apple Tv (1st gen), MF amp and Monopulse speakers and have been considering a Dac for a while but none seemed to have the feature set I want (remote, optical and coaxial, asynchronous USB) at reasonable prices. Enter the MDAC!

I was at Manchester on Sunday and listened to it. Obviously it's difficult to 'listen' to a particular component when it's connected to others but what I heard sounded very good indeed and I am going to place an order soon. I had a quick chat with one of the Audiolab guys there, I didn't catch his name (it wasn't John as he was getting lunch I think) but he was very friendly and helpful and shared my enthusiasm for the product!

Ultimately I'd like to sell my integrated amp and get a power amp connected to the MDAC using balanced connections. I note above the potential for a transport in the same dimensions as the MDAC - perhaps a power amp is in the pipeline too John?!

Anyhow, that's enough from me for my first post, hi to all again.

Gracey

JohnW
26-10-11, 05:08 AM
Hi Pawel,

How far are you from Jeseniky (Mountins) in the Czech republic - I know we are only a few KM from the Polish boarder.

We often visit Jeseniky - and we can meet there oneday, I can update your unit with transformer / OLED.

John

JohnW
26-10-11, 05:11 AM
Hi all,

I have just joined but have been reading this thread for a while.

I have an Apple Tv (1st gen), MF amp and Monopulse speakers and have been considering a Dac for a while but none seemed to have the feature set I want (remote, optical and coaxial, asynchronous USB) at reasonable prices. Enter the MDAC!

I was at Manchester on Sunday and listened to it. Obviously it's difficult to 'listen' to a particular component when it's connected to others but what I heard sounded very good indeed and I am going to place an order soon. I had a quick chat with one of the Audiolab guys there, I didn't catch his name (it wasn't John as he was getting lunch I think) but he was very friendly and helpful and shared my enthusiasm for the product!

Ultimately I'd like to sell my integrated amp and get a power amp connected to the MDAC using balanced connections. I note above the potential for a transport in the same dimensions as the MDAC - perhaps a power amp is in the pipeline too John?!

Anyhow, that's enough from me for my first post, hi to all again.

Gracey

Hi Gracey,

Welcome, Sorry missed you at the show.

First new product will be the upgrade PSU, then Power amps, then matching "transport" - we aim to have the above released within the next 6 months.

John

Gracey
26-10-11, 05:14 AM
That sounds great John!

Vodnik
26-10-11, 05:33 AM
Hi Pawel,

How far are you from Jeseniky (Mountins) in the Czech republic - I know we are only a few KM from the Polish boarder.

We often visit Jeseniky - and we can meet there oneday, I can update your unit with transformer / OLED.

John

Thanks for your reply! I'm in Warsaw, so quite far from the Czech border, but I think I could make such trip by car if necessary :)

Pawel

sq225917
26-10-11, 05:37 AM
Hi Pawel,

How far are you from Jeseniky (Mountins) in the Czech republic - I know we are only a few KM from the Polish boarder.

We often visit Jeseniky - and we can meet there oneday, I can update your unit with transformer / OLED.

John


Jesus, John do you never wake up and just think "i'll f_ck someone over today, just for a change!" ;-)

arthur
26-10-11, 05:45 AM
Hi John and Dominic.

Am I right in assumong there will be a price increase for the CDQ's that arrive with the new oled and Transformer upgrades? Just a guess here, but I am curious as I'm persuading a friend to get one instead of his ancient Marantz cd player.

JohnW
26-10-11, 05:49 AM
Jesus, John do you never wake up and just think "i'll f_ck someone over today, just for a change!" ;-)

Not yet - but I feel like I'm being "F-over" when I take our car to be serviced here in CZ... I'm dreading the next service... :(

JohnW
26-10-11, 05:51 AM
Hi John and Dominic.

Am I right in assumong there will be a price increase for the CDQ's that arrive with the new oled and Transformer upgrades? Just a guess here, but I am curious as I'm persuading a friend to get one instead of his ancient Marantz cd player.

There has been a small increase already - I believe the CDQ's now selling for GBP950 - this will remain for the OLED versions.

John

Joe P
26-10-11, 05:52 AM
John,

I've heard that a few distrubuters are not keen to stock the MDAC due to "Tight" margins... Dont even get me started!
One shop owner told me he wasn't interested in carrying the CDQ because it's not expensive enough.

OK, but it's not like every customer is going to be Cordelia Chase.*

Joe

* "It's like when I go shopping. I have to have the most expensive thing. Not because it's expensive, but because it costs more."

JohnW
26-10-11, 05:53 AM
Thanks for your reply! I'm in Warsaw, so quite far from the Czech border, but I think I could make such trip by car if necessary :)

Pawel

Hi Pawel,

OK - great, I need to collect a couple of update Kits from China, so we can meet sometime in December?

John

PhilCTTE
26-10-11, 05:54 AM
Hi John, So whats your view on my predicament, in regards to sending L/R signal from PSU to Power via 4 connections to enable bi-amping?

Split cable 2 -> 4 or a separate box which will take 2 inputs and allow 4 connections out duplicating L/R * 2 ?

Cheers.

JohnW
26-10-11, 05:56 AM
John,


One shop owner told me he wasn't interested in carrying the CDQ because it's not expensive enough.

OK, but it's not like every customer is going to be Cordelia Chase.*

Joe

* "It's like when I go shopping. I have to have the most expensive thing. Not because it's expensive, but because it costs more."

:mad: Thats what makes me sick - CDQ kills more expensive units, so to retain there profits, they dont dare stock the CDQ...

There are good and bad delaers, while most dealers are genuine, some just rip-off there customers... As I say, dont get me started...

John

JohnW
26-10-11, 05:58 AM
Hi PhilCTTE,

Yes, you can use a splitter cable to drive 2 or more sets of amps from the PSU Switcher box.. The MDAC has a decent high current output stage, as does the Switcher, so no problem to drive parrelled Amps.

John

PhilCTTE
26-10-11, 06:05 AM
Cheers John . (patiently tapping fingers in anticipation on MDAC delivery)

Really looking forward to peoples findings on use of various digital sources.
I've moved away from disc spinning other than my PS3 for games and DVD's.

Been looking at alternatives to the Sonos I have would prefer a hi-res solution. It seems some sort of bespoke PC solution might be the way to go and use bitperfect/itunes. Still doing the research. :confused::confused:

Regarding USB isolation is that built into the MDAC usb input or would we require a usb isolator as per posts a while back?.

Cheers again

JohnW
26-10-11, 06:13 AM
Cheers John . (patiently tapping fingers in anticipation on MDAC delivery)

Really looking forward to peoples findings on use of various digital sources.
I've moved away from disc spinning other than my PS3 for games and DVD's.

Been looking at alternatives to the Sonos I have would prefer a hi-res solution. It seems some sort of bespoke PC solution might be the way to go and use bitperfect/itunes. Still doing the research. :confused::confused:

Regarding USB isolation is that built into the MDAC usb input or would we require a usb isolator as per posts a while back?.

Cheers again

Depends upon your computer system - But, its worthwhile getting an external USB isolator.

John

Vodnik
26-10-11, 06:25 AM
Hi Pawel,

OK - great, I need to collect a couple of update Kits from China, so we can meet sometime in December?

John

Absolutely! Just let me know when we could meet there (the sooner, the better - driving through mountains in snow wouldn't be much fun...) and I'll plan a trip - it's about 7 hours drive from Warsaw. And of course let me know the cost involved and how to pay.
My email is vodnikpk(at)gmail.com, where (at) = @ of course.
Thanks again!

Now I need to actually buy a new CDQ - the one with triggers this time!!! :mad:

JTC
26-10-11, 06:49 AM
Was going to post this to the other thread but it's become locked, so...

FAO: JohnW, did you get my message??? (tried to PM but your box is chuckit fu', and added it to the previous thread but got buried on approximately page 23834...). If not, I was wondering if you might PM me at some point re: CDQ upgrades, dogs and preferred brand of tea.

Meanwhile, just to keep this OT: here's a question about the CDQ: is the decoding bandwidth rate independent for each input or is it a global setting? I'm asking because I had drop-out issues with Freeview from the TV into the optical input, although no such problems from non Freeview content via the same TV/lead/connection, so I changed the decoding thingumy, but the manual suggests that this might impair the quality somewhat so if it were to reduce the sound quality across the board I might rethink connecting the TV through the CDQ...

Ta.


Edit: JTC, I've merged your post to the shiny new Audiolab pt. VII thread as this seems to be where it belongs. Markus

Markus S
26-10-11, 06:49 AM
John, were you involved with the Peachtree Grand Pre?

Steven Toy
26-10-11, 06:54 AM
Not yet - but I feel like I'm being "F-over" when I take our car to be serviced here in CZ... I'm dreading the next service...

Would it be cheaper to get it serviced elsewhere like Austria, at an independent garage using genuine parts?

JohnW
26-10-11, 07:40 AM
John, were you involved with the Peachtree Grand Pre?

Hi Markus,

No, its not our type of product... I'm not into the US style massive "expensive" boxes.... As I understand, its designed by the "Wired for sound" designer.

John

JohnW
26-10-11, 07:42 AM
Was going to post this to the other thread but it's become locked, so...

FAO: JohnW, did you get my message??? (tried to PM but your box is chuckit fu', and added it to the previous thread but got buried on approximately page 23834...). If not, I was wondering if you might PM me at some point re: CDQ upgrades, dogs and preferred brand of tea.

Meanwhile, just to keep this OT: here's a question about the CDQ: is the decoding bandwidth rate independent for each input or is it a global setting? I'm asking because I had drop-out issues with Freeview from the TV into the optical input, although no such problems from non Freeview content via the same TV/lead/connection, so I changed the decoding thingumy, but the manual suggests that this might impair the quality somewhat so if it were to reduce the sound quality across the board I might rethink connecting the TV through the CDQ...

Ta.


Edit: JTC, I've merged your post to the shiny new Audiolab pt. VII thread as this seems to be where it belongs. Markus

The DPLL BW setting is stored for each input - so does not effect Globel settings. Freeview must have massive Jitter...

John

JTC
26-10-11, 07:44 AM
OK, ta. Can you PM me with details about when you're planning to be up this way so that I can organise to be here, ensure that your preferred brand of tea is present and so forth? Cheers.

JohnW
26-10-11, 07:45 AM
Would it be cheaper to get it serviced elsewhere like Austria, at an independent garage using genuine parts?

Yes, thats where we end up going... But its a long day out...

John

JohnW
26-10-11, 07:46 AM
OK, ta. Can you PM me with details about when you're planning to be up this way so that I can organise to be here, ensure that your preferred brand of tea is present and so forth? Cheers.

Hi JTC,

It will be around Christmas time, I need to return to China for 3 to 4 weeks first :(

I'll let you know in advance,

John

JTC
26-10-11, 07:49 AM
OK, great. My wife is well up for taking the dogs out for a walk (along with my two boys) and leaving us 'sad hifi types' to get on with it :)

Interzone
26-10-11, 07:50 AM
Hi John. Sorry if you have confirmed this already (and I'm not nagging or whining or anything, just wondering) but do you know what the dealer ETA for the silver MDACs is yet?

JohnW
26-10-11, 08:35 AM
Interzone,

50pcs Silver, 100Pcs Black have been shipped via air, so end of this week - latest next week you will have your unit... they are just making there way though the system.

The rest will follow....

John

sq225917
26-10-11, 08:40 AM
and every one a piece of gold....

JohnW
26-10-11, 08:43 AM
and every one a piece of gold....

As you and I both know... ;)

Steven Toy
26-10-11, 08:44 AM
As I would now like to find out...

JohnW
26-10-11, 08:56 AM
As I would now like to find out...

MDAC's are going to be like Gold dust... despite my pre-warnings to IAG about the demand - needless to say they took no notice... I guess they are still not accustomed to having "Hot" selling products.

John

Interzone
26-10-11, 09:02 AM
Thanks for the update :)

JohnW
26-10-11, 09:10 AM
OK, great. My wife is well up for taking the dogs out for a walk (along with my two boys) and leaving us 'sad hifi types' to get on with it :)

:) The update should only take an hour or so - Bobby and Paris are not to sure about the cold - and its still not snowed here yet - The snows going to be a shock to Paris - Poor little thing...

John

Butuz
26-10-11, 09:17 AM
I am looking forward to when MDACs are in stock in regular dealers so I can take one home of a weekend.

I take it that kind of supply will be early 2012 John?

Butuz

Interzone
26-10-11, 09:20 AM
BTW if anyone local to me (london/surrey) wants to hear one in a few weeks I would be willing to do a short loan........

Steven Toy
26-10-11, 09:56 AM
I am in no major rush though. As the CDQ with the new transformer is quite a delight.

bennyboyph
26-10-11, 10:24 AM
Are you bugging our conversations???? :) we where just talking about this last night....

Early days, but the "transport" will really be a "digital source component", so along with other features we are looking into DLNA streaming.

John

This is exactly what I've been looking for

JohnW
26-10-11, 10:25 AM
I take it that kind of supply will be early 2012 John?

:( hard to say, I think they are going to be hard to source for a while to come... :( we are ramping up production... :)

arthur
26-10-11, 10:40 AM
Perhaps IAG might employ a European type production/sourcing manager if they really can't get up to speed or understand a giant selling opportunity?

Very glad I made the pre-order list now, otherwise it could conceivably be spring before the ready availability of the Mdac had one flinging itself my way.

I'm as excited a small excited thing getting all excited up :)

gints
26-10-11, 10:52 AM
Early days, but the "transport" will really be a "digital source component", so along with other features we are looking into DLNA streaming.

John

Major feature for me would be ability to work without an extra computer in system. Plug in USB stick with music and simple display and remote control to select tracks, folders will be fine.

arthur
26-10-11, 11:10 AM
Major feature for me would be ability to work without an extra computer in system. Plug in USB stick with music and simple display and remote control to select tracks, folders will be fine.

Indeed! Me too.

I'd love to be able to just lob in a big usb or hdd and go straight on from there, no computer buggeration. :mad:

Is that even possible? Or feasible?

mark.king
26-10-11, 11:21 AM
Perhaps IAG might employ a European type production/sourcing manager if they really can't get up to speed or understand a giant selling opportunity?

Very glad I made the pre-order list now, otherwise it could conceivably be spring before the ready availability of the Mdac had one flinging itself my way.

I'm as excited a small excited thing getting all excited up :)

I must admit I'm getting sillily exited. Quite rediculous for someone 50 next month lol. I think the fact is I sold my Copland CD player a few months ago to go the NAS route and I'm desperate to get that quality sound back.when I sold it I thought I would just go out and get one but nothing fit the bill until until i ventured onto here.

So im with you Arthur excited and glad to be on the list

Oh and its getting hard to keep the £500 away from my wife's attention ;-)

Vodnik
26-10-11, 11:48 AM
Now I need to actually buy a new CDQ - the one with triggers this time!!! :mad:

OK, That was quick. I already have a new CDQ :) Short bargaining and I got a good price (for a unit from official Polish distribution channel). So I'm ready for a trip to Jeseniki! :cool:
My previous unit was serial number 121, the new one is 889 and it is trigger equipped. The same software versions though, so I still have faulty v86 servo software...

My new CDQ has already "hanged" today... I was playing some music from a PC using foobar and had some problems with controlling it with CDQ remote, so I sent a lot of remote commands in a short time. The result was that the music kept playing, but all the remote and front panel button functions stopped working. I had to power the unit off and on again to wake it up, but after that all my recent settings were lost and the unit reset to previously stored values.
I hope it was just a single odd incident, not indication of some hardware problem...

By the way I have a suggestion for a software change. Well, at least I hope it can be changed it software. Now when I'm playing a CD and change the input to e.g. VIDEO, the CD keeps playing, but the CD digital outputs are muted. Also the playback stops after some time if I remember correctly. Now I would like to see an option to have the CD out active even when the pre-out input set to VIDEO. The reason for this is that I have several DTS and Dolby Surround encoded CDs and would like to be able to play them on my CDQ but with the signal output to the AV receiver for processing, with L/R signal only going back to CDQs VIDEO input for playback in HT mode. Also the auto-stop feature would have to be delayed to at least 80 minutes to allow for a full lenght CD playback.

Pawel

Mr Ian
26-10-11, 12:00 PM
Hi Mr Ian,

We can add a "work-around" in the software (somehow) meeting your requirement... Its a practical suggestion...

:)

John

sounds great to me. But it even better to know that forum feedback can prompt, possibly new, thought and thinking on additional functionality

JohnW
26-10-11, 12:06 PM
Hi Vodnik,

What software versions is your new machine? the OLED update software also fixes all known ealier issues. Dominik is in the process of bring the LCD software upto date... Its got left behind with all the work on the OLED software.

Foobar does not implement HID commands correctly (Cue back / Cue foward are known issues) - MS Media player works correctly...

We could stop the disc after a full 80 minutes, would have to talk with Dominik to see if we have a counter free (or if the current counter can be extended too so long). I'm not sure why we Muted the the digital outputs when selecting an Analogue input - again I'll talk with Dom.

John

Vodnik
26-10-11, 12:13 PM
What software versions is your new machine?


1.1B main, 1.6B panel and 86 servo.

Pawel

JohnW
26-10-11, 12:27 PM
sounds great to me. But it even better to know that forum feedback can prompt, possibly new, thought and thinking on additional functionality

We are more then happy to add featuers at owners request. Luckly the MDAC can be updated by the user,

John

Interzone
26-10-11, 12:34 PM
We are more then happy to add featuers at owners request. Luckly the MDAC can be updated by the user,

John

The mind boggles as to what suggestions I could come up with......

gints
26-10-11, 01:28 PM
Indeed! Me too.

I'd love to be able to just lob in a big usb or hdd and go straight on from there, no computer buggeration. :mad:

Is that even possible? Or feasible?

It is, for example this one Aune file player http://www.hllyhifi.com/aune-mini-wav-ape-flac-player-24bit-192k-dac-p-283.html
If we take MDAC form factor, then there is space for nice quiet 2.5" hdd inside and proper oled display. Also will be space for all that audio/video bypass sockets what others asking for. That two units will look great together.

AndyU
26-10-11, 01:52 PM
Hard drives belong on networks, not inside products. Just put a upnp renderer inside the thing, an ethernet socket on the back and clean up.

gints
26-10-11, 02:14 PM
hard drive, usb stick, memory card - there is no difference. I just do not want extra piece of equipment (most likely noisy). Keep it simple, just something not overpriced to replace a CD media and CD mechanism.

mark.king
26-10-11, 02:57 PM
Hard drives belong on networks, not inside products. Just put a upnp renderer inside the thing, an ethernet socket on the back and clean up.

I agree. Right tool for right job. Keep network products on the network. I would not buy anything that stores data and costs a fortune to update or is not scalable. For me the last component which is the dac is what countts for SQ

PhilCTTE
26-10-11, 05:07 PM
John/Dominik can you ever see yourselves entering into the digital streaming market?

PC based stripped down and bespoke components geared not for multi room just a dedicated audiophile processor based product which allows the user to pick and choose the software of their choice. No DAC just a quality digital signal :cool:output to interface to the MDAC or DQ

Tenson
26-10-11, 06:02 PM
John (Westlake), could you please clear your PM box, I tried to send a message but it failed.

Cheers

gints
26-10-11, 09:51 PM
I agree. Right tool for right job. Keep network products on the network. I would not buy anything that stores data and costs a fortune to update or is not scalable. For me the last component which is the dac is what countts for SQ

Hard drive is the storage device, not network device. And we are talking about transport device, not dac. External portable usb hdd for me also will be fine enough.

ChrisPa
27-10-11, 12:01 AM
HDDs too noisy for me, so put them in another room

ChrisPa
27-10-11, 12:03 AM
John/Dominik can you ever see yourselves entering into the digital streaming market?

PC based stripped down and bespoke components geared not for multi room just a dedicated audiophile processor based product which allows the user to pick and choose the software of their choice. No DAC just a quality digital signal :cool:output to interface to the MDAC or DQI think that's what this is referring to:
Are you bugging our conversations???? :) we where just talking about this last night....

Early days, but the "transport" will really be a "digital source component", so along with other features we are looking into DLNA streaming.

JohnHint from this (reference to DNLA) is that data (storage) would be elsewhere

LesterT
27-10-11, 12:50 AM
Can someone help to sum up or point me to any link/doc for M-DAC /8200CD(Q) comparison ?

strocky
27-10-11, 01:52 AM
HDDs too noisy for me, so put them in another room

SSD's have no moving parts ;)

vishnu737
27-10-11, 01:56 AM
Can someone help to sum up or point me to any link/doc for M-DAC /8200CD(Q) comparison ?

Audiolab have updated their website so some details are now there.

http://www.audiolab.co.uk/Product.aspx?lang=En&Tab=4

ChrisPa
27-10-11, 02:02 AM
SSD's have no moving parts ;)Yup - an SSD isn't an HDD

price of 500GB SSD vs 1TB HDD anyone?
(£850 vs £100)

JTC
27-10-11, 02:08 AM
240Gb SSD is roughly £250 now, maybe slightly less. 64Gb for around £60.

Dik Dolan
27-10-11, 02:26 AM
Hi guys,
I just received the newsletter from Nottingham superfi, which says they are having an Audiolab open event with the 8000DQ and mdac (mdac from Friday, apparently)- and 20% discount.
Just a heads up for anyone interested.
No connection to them apart from an occasional customer.

Here's the link (http://www.superfi.co.uk/emails/oct11/Nottingham-Eshot-27-10-11.html?utm_source=DM&utm_medium=email&utm_term=webview&utm_content=Nottingham-Eshot-27-10-11&utm_campaign=Nottingham-Eshot-27-10-11)

Mods: if this is inapropiate in any way, apologies and please remove, I just thought that maybe any local fellow pfm'ers might be interested.

dtd
27-10-11, 02:28 AM
SSD's have no moving parts ;)

Bare in mind the long term reliability of SSDs is in question, although since its not a desktop workload it might fair much better in these scenarios.

JohnW
27-10-11, 02:46 AM
Audiolab have updated their website so some details are now there.

http://www.audiolab.co.uk/Product.aspx?lang=En&Tab=4

I've just visited the site - full or errors and incorrect information.... Of course zero attempt has been made to pass the information to Dom or myself to check...why, we would just be the English speaking designers... :rolleyes:

JohnW
27-10-11, 02:49 AM
Hi guys,
I just received the newsletter from Nottingham superfi, which says they are having an Audiolab open event with the 8000DQ and mdac (mdac from Friday, apparently)- and 20% discount.
Just a heads up for anyone interested.
No connection to them apart from an occasional customer.

Here's the link (http://www.superfi.co.uk/emails/oct11/Nottingham-Eshot-27-10-11.html?utm_source=DM&utm_medium=email&utm_term=webview&utm_content=Nottingham-Eshot-27-10-11&utm_campaign=Nottingham-Eshot-27-10-11)

Mods: if this is inapropiate in any way, apologies and please remove, I just thought that maybe any local fellow pfm'ers might be interested.

20% off on MDAC!!!! now thats a deal!!! (If true)... but expect a long backorder waiting time...

JohnW
27-10-11, 02:51 AM
John (Westlake), could you please clear your PM box, I tried to send a message but it failed.

Cheers

Sadly I cannot clear ATM, as I need the information for the Pre-orders...

John

Space is the Place
27-10-11, 02:52 AM
I think if id have know that the finish on the front panel on these wasn't going to be the 'brushed' finish like the rest of the range id have gone for the silver now, it does show the finish as 'brushed' on the website, but its obviously got a bead blasted type finish.

brumjam
27-10-11, 03:00 AM
20% off on MDAC!!!! now thats a deal!!! (If true)... but expect a long backorder waiting time...

My thoughts exactly.......that's a massive saving. Worth going on a back order list for.

James

vishnu737
27-10-11, 03:01 AM
Hi John,

Don't mean to hassle you but any idea when Dominik will be able to post the RC codes?

thanks

Richard

mark.king
27-10-11, 03:10 AM
Yes my mistake. A hard drive is a storage not network device. My point still stands in that I don't want my storage being part of my hi fi. The original streamers had really small drives and not that scalable. Things like storage will always evolve, get bigger and cheaper. As we know hi from years ago still sounds good. So keeping them seperate is the way I like to go. Totally understand someone wanting the all in one box though

JTC
27-10-11, 03:11 AM
Bare in mind the long term reliability of SSDs is in question, although since its not a desktop workload it might fair much better in these scenarios.

If manufacturer's specs are to be believed, we're talking 1,000,000 hours MTBF. Which is good enough for me.

JohnW
27-10-11, 03:12 AM
I think if id have know that the finish on the front panel on these wasn't going to be the 'brushed' finish like the rest of the range id have gone for the silver now, it does show the finish as 'brushed' on the website, but its obviously got a bead blasted type finish.

Yes, I also noticed - the finish is bead blasted - they even have the old silkscreen... I mean how wrong can you be... TOTALLY useless...

JohnW
27-10-11, 03:52 AM
rtrt,

WHF has a good picture - in there current awards issue & on the WHF website,

John

strocky
27-10-11, 03:57 AM
Yup - an SSD isn't an HDD

price of 500GB SSD vs 1TB HDD anyone?
(£850 vs £100)

Who has that amount of "legally" acquired music backed up? :p

And you can pick up a 1TB HDD for £50 :D

sam_cat
27-10-11, 04:01 AM
Who has that amount of "legally" acquired music backed up? :p

And you can pick up a 1TB HDD for £50 :D

I currently have 120gb of legally acquired music, all FLAC rips of my cds, and a number of 24/96 and 24/192 recordings which I purchased and downloaded (which are even larger than the FLAC rips). I do envisage this doubling in the next 5 years or so.

Additionally I also keep a 256kb mp3 version of everything on the same storage, specifically for the purpose of putting on my portable player.

Its all stored on my Home Server (2x2tb drives mirrored), its backed up externally and is on the netbook so fairly low risk of dataloss.

Sam

PhilCTTE
27-10-11, 04:12 AM
I personally wouldn't use an SSD for music libraries. Yes they're quicker, but the main benefit is that it has no moving parts and "arguably" would generate less noise in your pc . And at current prices it would be illogical to store all your flacs. I'd spec the smallest size I could get away with as it would be a dedicated music server and nothing else.

strocky
27-10-11, 04:19 AM
I currently have 120gb of legally acquired music, all FLAC rips of my cds, and a number of 24/96 and 24/192 recordings which I purchased and downloaded (which are even larger than the FLAC rips). I do envisage this doubling in the next 5 years or so.

Additionally I also keep a 256kb mp3 version of everything on the same storage, specifically for the purpose of putting on my portable player.

Its all stored on my Home Server (2x2tb drives mirrored), its backed up externally and is on the netbook so fairly low risk of dataloss.

Sam

Nobody likes a show off :p

AndyU
27-10-11, 04:21 AM
Music libraries belong on networks! Not inside players! A player should be able to 'see' all the music on your network, whichever pc/laptop/NAS it is on.

sam_cat
27-10-11, 04:24 AM
Nobody likes a show off :p

:p



..

strocky
27-10-11, 04:44 AM
Music libraries belong on networks! Not inside players! A player should be able to 'see' all the music on your network, whichever pc/laptop/NAS it is on.

Although I agree with what your saying, not everyone can run cables or have a server in their home

Vodnik
27-10-11, 04:48 AM
Who has that amount of "legally" acquired music backed up? :p

I currently have about 120GB in flac's - all "backups" of CDs from my collection and a couple of legaly purchased downloads. Plus 28GB of mp3 (converted from those flac's - for my portable devices use).

I now have 64GB SSD in my mediacenter PC - but this is just for the OS and mediacenter/players applications, not for media storage. For this I have a NAS with 2x2TB HDDs.

Pawel

AndyU
27-10-11, 05:10 AM
Although I agree with what your saying, not everyone can run cables or have a server in their home

.. So have a wireless network, and if you don't want a server, don't have one - just put your music on your pc or laptop, or any number of them. Even if you had a drive inside your player, it would most probably still need to be on a network in order to get music onto it.

ChrisPa
27-10-11, 05:50 AM
Who has that amount of "legally" acquired music backed up? :p

And you can pick up a 1TB HDD for £50 :DUsed as a single store for audio - FLAC and mp3 duplicates, photos and movies

All available via DLNA so any compatible device can access the files.
Installed in computer with virtual Vortexbox installation, hidden away in the hall

Then need 2nd disk as full backup, so that I won't lose my files in case of HDD failure

I prefer the £50-100 cost per disk, which leaves me more money to spend on hifi, CDs and beer and wine

I do have a 60Gb SSD in my hifi PC (so it sits silently next to the hifi)

dtd
27-10-11, 06:23 AM
If manufacturer's specs are to be believed, we're talking 1,000,000 hours MTBF. Which is good enough for me.

I wouldn't count on it. The situation has improved, but I seriously wouldn't trust the MTBF.

JohnW
27-10-11, 06:51 AM
I'd like to hear your thoughts on why you would not just buy the Cambridge Audio NP30 streamer or the Squeezebox offerings?

I cannot understand how anyone would spend more then the Squeezebox - what do the other offerings offer that the SB does not?

I'm talking about a streamer connected to an external DAC - so forget the internal DAC quality.

MDAC attenuates Jitter to such a large extent - I would have a hard time recommending spending anymore on a streamer then the cost of the SB... So I'd be interested to hear your opinions.

Where does the Squeezebox fail? (it has a great screen, User Interface etc)?

John

JTC
27-10-11, 06:58 AM
Where does the Squeezebox fail? (it has a great screen, User Interface etc)?
In my opinion it doesn't although it's rather poor at playing videos... :)

Seriously, though, I'm moving away from my Squeezeboxen to (probably) a Mac Mini solution - not for sound quality as such - but to move to something which is easily updatable and offers far more flexibilty...

Adrian
27-10-11, 07:07 AM
I'd like to hear your thoughts on why you would not just buy the Cambridge Audio NP30 streamer or the Squeezebox offerings?

I cannot understand how anyone would spend more then the Squeezebox - what do the other offerings offer that the SB does not?

I'm talking about a streamer connected to an external DAC - so forget the internal DAC quality.

MDAC attenuates Jitter to such a large extent - I would have a hard time recommending spending anymore on a streamer then the cost of the SB... So I'd be interested to hear your opinions.

Where does the Squeezebox fail? (it has a great screen, User Interface etc)?

John

Don't underestimate the amount of code to support all the ancilary features beyond simple streaming of local files (with all your favorite codecs). There's probably as much code in squeezebox for doing internet radio and other stuff + lots of closed source stuff for streaming services & proprietary codecs.

I hope we can make squeezebox work well with an mdac...

AndyU
27-10-11, 07:09 AM
JohnW - why not put a streamer inside your MDAC? Just clock data straight out of the streamers ample buffer into the DAC itself. No spdif so no jitter to attenuate. Most sensible protocol is arguably UPnP - many modest products like £100 Sony Blu-Rays now have UPnP capability so it can't be difficult or expensive. People can choose from an abundance of already existing UPnP servers and control points and remote control apps. Give Linn and Naim a run for their money!

Steven Toy
27-10-11, 07:36 AM
. Give Linn and Naim a run for their money!

This is the key point.

ChrisPa
27-10-11, 07:38 AM
I use
- Squeezebox - SB3 so nowhere near as good a user interface as latest models, but still good nonetheless
- hifi PC - dedicated miniITX PC so I can play Spotify, artists' sites, myspace, Youtube etc.
- use netbook, mobile phone, tablet etc. for remote desktop access into hifi PC

I went for the dedicated PC before spotify plugins were available for the Squeezbox, and so that I'd always be able to use 'son of Spotify' whatever that may be in the future.

I'd like to use the PC as a CD transport, but haven't dedicated the time to find out:
- how to slow down the optical transport ('cause otherwise it's very noisy)
- how (best) to get an inserted CD to autoplay
- the CD remote is easier and more intuitive than a remote PC, so I'd want to implement a dedicated conventional remote


BUT

overall I'd simply recommend a Squeezebox Touch (my preference) or a Sonos.
In particular, because the whole user interface and remote control are so well integrated and can be (more) readily explained to the other occupants of my house

ChrisPa
27-10-11, 08:25 AM
Whatever your thoughts or end result, make it a two-box solution.
Keep any 'data transport' separate from the DAC.
- removes one set of potential interferences from the DAC
- allows the DAC to be upgradeable/replaceable as required

AndyU
27-10-11, 08:31 AM
I disagree! Put the data transport inside the DAC. No s/pdif in sight. No de-jittering needed for there is no embedded clock to de-jitter. The absolutely correct clock frequency is known as it is part of the file's meta-data. Checkout the new Linn DSM stuff, or the Naim NDX.

ChrisPa
27-10-11, 08:35 AM
I disagree! Put the data transport inside the DAC. No s/pdif in sight. No de-jittering needed for there is no embedded clock to de-jitter. The absolutely correct clock frequency is known as it is part of the file's meta-data. Checkout the new Linn DSM stuff, or the Naim NDX.word clock output from DAC (which the MDAC already has) overcomes this problem
And John seems to be extremely confident about the de-jittering capabilities of the MDAC :)

And the DAC and transport will talk to each other so any 'higher level' information can readily be passed from transport to DAC

AndyU
27-10-11, 08:41 AM
You've got a lovely buffer full of data. Why add a clock signal to it, convert it to spdif, put it down a wire into another box which promptly has to strip out the clock signal and put the same data into a very much smaller buffer and clock it using the extracted clock? Even a humble squeezebox clocks data straight out of it's buffer into it's own internal DAC under the control of its own fixed internal clocks. You only have multiples of 44.1 and 48 to worry about for music.

ChrisPa
27-10-11, 08:44 AM
You've got a lovely buffer full of data. Why add a clock signal to it, convert it to spdif, put it down a wire into another box which promptly has to strip out the clock signal and put the same data into a very much smaller buffer and clock it using the extracted clock? Even a humble squeezebox clocks data straight out of it's buffer into it's own internal DAC under the control of its own fixed internal clocks. You only have multiples of 44.1 and 48 to worry about for music.Different ways of killing a cat - I've given my reasons, you've given yours

AndyU
27-10-11, 08:48 AM
My cat's deader than your cat! ;)

PhilCTTE
27-10-11, 08:52 AM
I use
- Squeezebox - SB3 so nowhere near as good a user interface as latest models, but still good nonetheless
- hifi PC - dedicated miniITX PC so I can play Spotify, artists' sites, myspace, Youtube etc.
- use netbook, mobile phone, tablet etc. for remote desktop access into hifi PC

I went for the dedicated PC before spotify plugins were available for the Squeezbox, and so that I'd always be able to use 'son of Spotify' whatever that may be in the future.

I'd like to use the PC as a CD transport, but haven't dedicated the time to find out:
- how to slow down the optical transport ('cause otherwise it's very noisy)
- how (best) to get an inserted CD to autoplay
- the CD remote is easier and more intuitive than a remote PC, so I'd want to implement a dedicated conventional remote


BUT

overall I'd simply recommend a Squeezebox Touch (my preference) or a Sonos.
In particular, because the whole user interface and remote control are so well integrated and can be (more) readily explained to the other occupants of my house

Pretty much agree with all of that Chris.

DLNA music streamers in AV processors seem to be the most basic in UI very poor. To the extent of open folder and scroll to music file with noddy search options.

All down to the extreme costs in software development involved in producing a decent front end UI.

Although the Sonos is basic in terms of the latest iTunes PC offerings it executes everything pretty well without failing. Its even integrated LastFm Napster and most importantly Spotify.

I''ve briefly looked at the UI of the MF MClic (about 1K) and the UI is clunky. Not sure if they have app for that yet ! :)

My criteria is the following

1. Price (for me personally £500 max)
2. Sound quality, clean digital output
3. Reliability. Pausing or crackles in replay or wifi drop outs if used wirelessly, syncing between rooms poorly
4. The ability to decode all the popular file formats
5. Ability to support HiRes formats (can't decide if this is a 4 or 5 having only heard hi-res once)
6. Usability. This can be broken down into many
Easy to use GUI front end on PC and or remote devices is a must (Apple and android)
Gapless playback,
Playlist managment,
library managment ,
Internet music services like lastfm,spotify napster and internet radio.
Other nice to haves like star rating favourites, cross fading, random
7. Flexibility of connections to support interface types optical, coax, async usb hires for connection to DAC
8. Multiroom capability incl different playback or partymodes.
9. Upgradability or future proofing. Not just about online updates but also the stability and ability of a company to provide support if things go wrong.

Waiting to trial the new streamer from Simple Audio at £500 , but again I'm paying for a DAC I don't need.

One of the problems with the streamer market is that there are more and more software services such as Spotify and MOG (not in UK yet) and ITunes or an Apple equivalent I'm sure in the future. The standalone devices are struggling to integrate these , so it's making the PC solution a stronger contender.
Which is why I stated ealier "PC based stripped down and bespoke components geared not for multi room just a dedicated audiophile processor based product which allows the user to pick and choose the software of their choice. No DAC just a quality digital signal output to interface to the MDAC or DQ"
Spend the effort on good hardware design and leave the (expensive) software elements to others. Not sure how isolated or modular you can make the hardware unless its a PC re-housed with better power supply , isolation and SSD. I've hit a brick wall on my knowledge here :D

EIffel
27-10-11, 08:55 AM
I use a squeezebox system (1 duet and 2 radios) and am not sure what a new box would add besides nicer cosmetics than the squeezebox receiver, and a way to eliminate jitter, which a MDAC could almost do.

This sounds like a modded receiver (or touch) if mods could be done on the sync clock, etc. (as the PSU can already be improved), but I'm not sure that this is a valid business model for Audiolab.

I'm also thinking about what one would lose by going with another solution, including:
- money
- logitech's IT experience, expertise and licenses for/compatibility with various formats, feeds, etc.
- integration with the squeezebox system (multizones, VPN, remote access to server, ipeng, etc.)
- multiple interface options (from IR remote to squeezebox controller to ipad/pod/android to PC and IP)
- distracting John and Dominik from their audio pursuits where they're hard to replace: QDAC, amps, power supply, CD transport with world clock, phono preamp... the list is long and they keep on adding to it ;-)!

The same could be said for users of Sonos systems, etc.

PhilCTTE
27-10-11, 08:58 AM
+1 on the Linn DS beating comment.

Just check out the prices

Majik 2.1K
Akurate 3.5K

But they seem to be the market leaders in SQ it seems.

ChrisPa
27-10-11, 08:58 AM
My cat's deader than your cat! ;):D

... and clock it using the extracted clock...although I didn't spot this first time. There's no extracted clock. The clock used throughout is the master clock generated by the DAC

Mind you, any way to kill a cat seems fine by me :)

rtrt
27-10-11, 09:29 AM
re the posts earlier about MDAC finish - had a closer look at the audiolab site just now.

As far as I can see the black/silver swatches on the finish tab are the 'old' brushed finish but the pictures on the image tab are different - presumably the new/correct finish?

Comparing those images to the MDAC video on what hifi site I really cant see any difference - can someone who's seen one in the flesh comment?

JohnW
27-10-11, 10:02 AM
re the posts earlier about MDAC finish - had a closer look at the audiolab site just now.

As far as I can see the black/silver swatches on the finish tab are the 'old' brushed finish but the pictures on the image tab are different - presumably the new/correct finish?

Comparing those images to the MDAC video on what hifi site I really cant see any difference - can someone who's seen one in the flesh comment?

As I posted earlier, the finish shown on the Audiolab website is INCORRECT.

The production finish is bead-blast (as the top lids on the CD/CDQ's) - or as the rear of the iPad - they are NOT "Hair Line" as the exsisting CD/CDQ front panels.

I'm sorry to say that the Audiolab website has MANY errors - nobody comes to us to confirm the information first - thus its a total mess.

John

AndyU
27-10-11, 10:09 AM
:D

although I didn't spot this first time. There's no extracted clock. The clock used throughout is the master clock generated by the DAC

Mind you, any way to kill a cat seems fine by me :)

But the frequency of the clock in the DAC is driven by the (inherently varying) frequency of the clock embedded in the s/pdif input - hence the need to dejitter, through PLLs or ASRC or whatver. No matter how good that is, it can't be as good as not having to in the first place.

gints
27-10-11, 10:10 AM
I also do not like all in box solutions, especially if you know that most of those functions will not be used, they just move price up more then necessary. But we also should not mix different things. For example like Xbox or Playstation where hdd is part of system and something like modern media players which you can run with or without hdd, they just for storage and interchangeable as whole bunch of other types data storage. If box is big enough you can put in inside if you wish.

2.5" 5400rpm hdd are silent things even more inside a portable case. Or if something complete silent - usb memory sticks 16GB for 12 pounds. We anyway need a more serious storage for backup purpose. And yes, they are noisy, not good for music listening.

I do not think that networked data (it does not matter if they call it upnp) is something more easy to work with than spdif. On network you still have all kind of trouble - collisions, bandwith managment, aplications priority, packet loss and who knows what else. You still need to make sure that all data is received. Audio data especially still will heavily depend on software.

I had a fanless computer, quite modern one, based on AMD E350 cpu, thinking about playing music and movies. It was quite useless for everything else. And also you need to think what to do with big bright monitor while listening, otherwise you can not manage playlists (the same thing with media players). Thank you, bye bye. Of course, it is possible to build powerful and silent, but for what money. Unless industry comes up with something simpe and purpose built, I will stick to old way - burn compilations onto CD-R, switch of computer and give a chance to CD player earn its retirement.

dtd
27-10-11, 10:35 AM
For what its worth (prob posted this before) my own solution is just a really cheap matx system (came with mobile cpu so v.quiet) that I sourced second hand for £100, a USB flash stick and the XBMC live cd.

Basically install XBMC, drop down to a shell session and install MPD ontop. Then point that to my storage devices that hold the media, and point the MPD instance to the audiolab's USB impl. You can then control the music from any phone that can get an MPD client (nearly all) as a remote. On top of that, it doubles as a very versatile media playback device for videos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_Player_Daemon

http://xbmc.org/

So in the spirit of JohnW, if anyone is interested in such a setup and wants a hand in setting up their own little setup as such and your in central london, drop me a PM. I wont expect anything but the chance to abuse your hifi ... a little!

Vodnik
27-10-11, 10:42 AM
And also you need to think what to do with big bright monitor while listening, otherwise you can not manage playlists (the same thing with media players).

Sure you can. With Foobar and JRiver you can use a remote control application on an Android phone or tablet to manage playlists and control the player. I use Foobar and my monitor (well actually a 46" plasma TV...) is off :)

Pawel

P.S. XBMC also has a remote control application for Android, but it is not capable of bit perfect playback on 24 bit only USB DACs... Pity as it has an excellent interface and good Android app... :(

dtd
27-10-11, 10:45 AM
Sure you can. With Foobar and JRiver you can use a remote control application on an Android phone or tablet to manage playlists and control the player. I use Foobar and my monitor (well actually a 46" plasma TV...) is off :)

Pawel

P.S. XBMC also has a remote control application for Android, but it is not capable of bit perfect playback on 24 bit only USB DACs... Pity as it has an excellent interface and good Android app... :(

That's true and why I use MPD in addition. However, XBMC when left to 100% volume and playing 16-bit stuff will be bit-perfect as of a recent release.

rtrt
27-10-11, 10:55 AM
As I posted earlier, the finish shown on the Audiolab website is INCORRECT.

The production finish is bead-blast (as the top lids on the CD/CDQ's) - or as the rear of the iPad - they are NOT "Hair Line" as the exsisting CD/CDQ front panels.

I'm sorry to say that the Audiolab website has MANY errors - nobody comes to us to confirm the information first - thus its a total mess.

John
Yep understood John. What I was trying to say (not very well without pictures) was that the MDAC 'finish tab' shows this picture.
http://www.audiolab.co.uk/Iag/UserFiles/image/image/finish.jpg

But to my eyes this from the MDAC 'image tab' looks different
http://www.audiolab.co.uk/images/MDAC/AH_MDAC5.jpg

It actually looks very similar to this from the CDQ 'image tab'
http://www.audiolab.co.uk/images/8200CDQ/8200CDQ02.jpg

So i'm guessing that the 2nd picture might be a fair representation of the MDAC (looks very similar to the what hifi video)?

Understand I could just wait to pick the silver one up and then I'll know for sure what it looks (and sounds) like :D

sq225917
27-10-11, 11:02 AM
it's matt finish, blasted, not linished and anodized

Vodnik
27-10-11, 11:03 AM
That's true and why I use MPD in addition. However, XBMC when left to 100% volume and playing 16-bit stuff will be bit-perfect as of a recent release.

Not with 8200CD, CDQ or rDAC for example, as all these can only accept 24 bit signal on USB and WASAPI in XBMC can only talk to 16/24bit devices and fails to start (what is nicely visible in XBMC log file, but not visible on the screen). So even if you set XBMC to use WASAPI driver on these devices, the XBMC will actually use DirectSound driver, which is not bit perfect...

But indeed with 16/24bit devices like TeraDak Teralink X2, XBMC uses WASAPI correctly and plays bit perfect sound - actually both 16 and 24 bit sources.

dtd
27-10-11, 11:04 AM
Not with 8200CD, CDQ or rDAC for example, as all these can only accept 24 bit signal on USB and WASAPI in XBMC can only talk to 16/24bit devices and fails to start (what is nicely visible in XBMC log file, but not visible on the screen). So even if you set XBMC to use WASAPI driver on these devices, the XBMC will actually use DirectSound driver, which is not bit perfect...

It's different in live CD / linux - its certainly capable and confirmed by the devs of XBMC linux. But yes, that problem exists on the Windows version, rather annoyingly.

Vodnik
27-10-11, 11:11 AM
It's different in live CD / linux - its certainly capable and confirmed by the devs of XBMC linux. But yes, that problem exists on the Windows version, rather annoyingly.

Ah yes, I thought about the Windows version.

JohnW
27-10-11, 11:12 AM
Understand I could just wait to pick the silver one up and then I'll know for sure what it looks (and sounds) like :D

:) Yes - Indeed :)

Vodnik
27-10-11, 11:22 AM
OK, That was quick. I already have a new CDQ :) Short bargaining and I got a good price (for a unit from official Polish distribution channel). So I'm ready for a trip to Jeseniki! :cool:
My previous unit was serial number 121, the new one is 889 and it is trigger equipped. The same software versions though, so I still have faulty v86 servo software...


And just when I thought that my "adventures" are over, that "new" CDQ started making weird noises when the CD tray was closed without a CD on it... As it turned out it wasn't entirely new unit, but an ex-demo unit, which probably survived some crash tests in the past... Luckilly it was quickly replaced with a brand new one straight from the distributor warehouse. The "newest" one is s/n 1012, but still the same software versions as my previous two CDQ units.

JohnW
27-10-11, 11:57 AM
"new" CDQ started making weird noises when the CD tray was closed without a CD on it.

Sounds like the Disc Clamping "Puck" rubbing with no disk in the tray - sadly "Normal" with this loader Mech. Its OK with a Disc loaded (the thickness of the disc prevents the Puck from rubbing within its "Hole" on the top of the support "bridge" - above the loader)...

Vodnik
27-10-11, 12:31 PM
Sounds like the Disc Clamping "Puck" rubbing with no disk in the tray - sadly "Normal" with this loader Mech. Its OK with a Disc loaded (the thickness of the disc prevents the Puck from rubbing within its "Hole" on the top of the support "bridge" - above the loader)...
Yes, it was certainly this kind of noise. Interesting that it was only heard after the device was on for a couple of hours. When cold it wasn't making any unusual noises. Luckilly the one I have now does not make any such annoying noises (the first one I had was also quiet).

Vodnik
27-10-11, 12:55 PM
How is the volume control by USB supposed to work in CDQ when enabled in menu? Should a volume slider eg. in Windows change the attenuation in CDQ?
I noticed one very nasty thing happening with the USB volume control activated - every time my computer was being turned on (or waken from standby) with the CDQ set to USB input, but also when the CDQ was powered on (regardless of the active input), the volume was reset to +3dB!!! NOT FUNNY... I scared myself and my family once with music suddenly playing at all the power my 8000P could provide... Luckily my speakers survived it... Since then I no longer experiment with this option and keep it disabled.

JohnW
27-10-11, 01:16 PM
Vodnik,

That’s why we don’t enable the "Volume via USB control" by default - different O/S perform differently.

MAC OS / IPad work well, but in typical Microsoft style - useless for the reasons you noted.

Also, MS does not implement "feedback" so adjusting the volume on the CDQ does not change the slider on the PC.

It’s only meant to be used by advanced users - with stable well implemented O/S (Not Microsoft products). I believe there is a warning in the user manual for this very reason...

John

dlcastles
27-10-11, 01:36 PM
I'd like to hear your thoughts on why you would not just buy the Cambridge Audio NP30 streamer or the Squeezebox offerings?

I cannot understand how anyone would spend more then the Squeezebox - what do the other offerings offer that the SB does not?

I'm talking about a streamer connected to an external DAC - so forget the internal DAC quality.

MDAC attenuates Jitter to such a large extent - I would have a hard time recommending spending anymore on a streamer then the cost of the SB... So I'd be interested to hear your opinions.

Where does the Squeezebox fail? (it has a great screen, User Interface etc)?

John

Hi John, thanks for the info on the transport. Honest, no illicit surveillance methods going on here!

Your recommendation on the Squeezebox Touch makes me wonder about my own plans for streaming. If you feel the MDAC's jitter attenuation is so good it doesn't matter what device is employed as a streamer, that's great news once the MDAC is out.

My system is CDQ based, and I'm still working out what the best to stream to it is. Thanks to your characteristic generosity I have the transformer upgrade, the obvious benefits of which I had less than a day to explore before the new improved CDQ was packed off on a slow boat to South Africa.

Before it disappeared I had been using an old XP laptop running foobar to stream to the CDQ - a set up that markedly improved once a USB isolator was added to the system. I also bought a Squeezebox to experiment with once the CDQ arrived in Africa and as an interim solution while I wait for it. (You don't even want to know what the SB is currently streaming FLACs to via its RCA outs. Save to say it's impossible to judge the quality of its internal DAC...)

Once the CDQ gets here I'll try the USB-isolated PC against the Squeezebox over optical and see which performs best. If the PC wins, the SB can serve as a streamer/DAC for a second system in the house.

My doubts about the Squeezebox's sound quality come from reading online. Most reviews and reports suggest it has limitations as a streamer even into a high quality DAC like the CDQ. Those have led to a well-used series of suggested modifications to improve the output available here http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeezebox-touch-toolbox-20.html

The most promising solution appears to be to modify the Squeezebox to output over USB and then take advantage of the CDQ's asynchronous USB connection (plus a USB isolator). Despite a lot of effort, though, no one seems to have worked out how to get the SB to USB stream to a CDQ without drop outs...

That's a shame because in most respects the SB solution would be ideal. The interface is great, the integration of internet radio good, it handles 24/96 without problems, and there are some great ancillary programs such as Spicefly Sugarcube which are just a great way to explore a big music library. You can also use the fantastic Squeezepad iPad app as a remote control that does everything I want and more.

I'm extremely interested to hear what your conclusions and recommendations are for both the MDAC and the CDQ. I find it very hard to know what the important characteristics of a good streaming solution are, and bemused by the prices of offerings from the likes of NAIM, Cyrus and Linn.

I've really enjoyed exploring the different ways to listen to music that come with a NAS drive full of lossless music files and, thanks to your good self, I know have a DAC that sounds sublime. It's just the transport from NAS to DAC that remains a conundrum... Be great if you can solve that one too!

Best, Duncan

Vodnik
27-10-11, 01:40 PM
I believe there is a warning in the user manual for this very reason..


I'm a IT professional and engineer - this means that I only read manuals as a last resort when everything else fails :D

EDIT: Just checked the manual and it only informs that the feature is not compatible with Windows and is not recommended, even though it may work with some players. It does not say that it can actually be dangerous if enabled...

JohnW
27-10-11, 02:12 PM
I'm a IT professional and engineer - this means that I only read manuals as a last resort when everything else fails :D

Hi Vodnik,

I just hope it is mentioned in the Manual, I know we did talk about it with the manual writer - but these things can get missed - especially as it was a feature that was added to the software after the first manuals had been written...

It’s hard to keep the Manual in Sync. with our updates - especially when we don’t talk about the additions to anyone in China (as there’s no one who would understand – and they would only say No anyway).... Our manual writer in the UK is great, as he just gets on with it by himself - once he gets the latest units :) Great!!!

John

JohnW
27-10-11, 02:13 PM
Ops - Crossed postings :)

TimR
27-10-11, 02:23 PM
MDAC attenuates Jitter to such a large extent - I would have a hard time recommending spending anymore on a streamer then the cost of the SB...

Hi John, have you managed to get a listen to the SB (or any SPDIF source) into the MDAC and compare it to the Async USB? I've asked here a couple of times but no response.

Also, any idea when the CDQ OLED/Transformer upgrades will become generally available? I wasn't able to get along to the Hi Fi show unfortunately, much as I'd have loved to. I'm still on the very original CDQ software waiting patiently for this so I can kill all my birds with one stone... That should keep me going until the QDAC :)

Cheers,
Tim

TimR
27-10-11, 02:30 PM
I use
- Squeezebox - SB3 so nowhere near as good a user interface as latest models, but still good nonetheless

Hi Chris, I have both the SB3 and Touch, and as far as I know they can both be controlled from an ipod touch (get a cheap one off ebay) using the iPeng app. This removes any user-interface comparisons, and to be honest, I prefer the large uncluttered display of the SB3. I only really bought the touch to see if I could get the Asynch USB working (which I couldn't). The only reason I've left it in place is that it can do 24bit 96kHz, whereas I believe the SB3 is limited to 16/48 (I might slightly wrong, but I know it's less high def capable). If you can live without that, then I think you've done the right thing sticking with the SB3.

TimR
27-10-11, 02:49 PM
Where does the Squeezebox fail? (it has a great screen, User Interface etc)?
Well, since you asked (and since this might feed into your own streamer product)...
I still yearn for the most simple and powerful search engine I've ever used... the one in Winamp. You can type any series of words which it then finds in any tag and in any order and filters the results as you type. So for example, I could type "belle dog" and, without even pressing enter, it will instantly find me "Belle & Sebastian - Dog On Wheels", as would "wheel seb". Because it also searches the genre tag, I was even able to use this to store my own portable star ratings and mood information. Fancy something to relax to with a 3 star rating or more ? Just type "*** [R]" and up they pop. Yes, I'm that sad.

Elegent simplicity, and fantastic for people like me who can never remember the title of the track they want to find. Never seen this implemented anywhere else, although I'm sure it must have been.... hasn't it ?

I really don't get media players that force you to search within specific tags or for fixed phrases (like Squeeze Server does).

TimR
27-10-11, 03:01 PM
I currently have 120gb of legally acquired music, all FLAC rips of my cds, and a number of 24/96 and 24/192 recordings which I purchased and downloaded (which are even larger than the FLAC rips). I do envisage this doubling in the next 5 years or so.

Gig-wars eh? Well, my ripped flacs have already exceeded your 5 year forecast. Bring on the next contender :D

mark.king
27-10-11, 03:01 PM
I use a mini pc because of it's flexiblity. Also things like codecs etc are usually easely downloadable and your not waiting for firmware updates for hardware. Thats if they ever happen. I'm not a MAC person (except iphone) I like to build my own computers so I know what I'm getting. I have no network problems as My NAS and main listening PC are linked by a GigE switch both full duplex (no collisions) Only other pc connected to the switch is my i7 recording studio based pc. All other pc's phones are connected over wi fi . I would consider a SB for other rooms but would not use wireless for my main hi fi PC. It wouldn't work anyway as I have hi def movies and hi bit rate files recorded.

By the way I mix to 32 bit float files which play fine using Cubase or wavelab but other media programs don't recognise this format so I have to convert to 24bit. Does anyone else use this type of file?

TimR
27-10-11, 03:11 PM
I would consider a SB for other rooms but would not use wireless for my main hi fi PC. It wouldn't work anyway as I have hi def movies and hi bit rate files recorded.
The SB Touch is both wired and wireless and does hi def up to 24/96. Obviously no good for movies though :)

edit: oh sorry, you were talking about your PC. I'll just shut up (at last).

ChrisPa
27-10-11, 03:13 PM
But the frequency of the clock in the DAC is driven by the (inherently varying) frequency of the clock embedded in the s/pdif input - hence the need to dejitter, through PLLs or ASRC or whatver. No matter how good that is, it can't be as good as not having to in the first place.No. The whole point about a word clock generated by the dac is that it becomes the master clock and everything else is slaved to that clock. The dac no longer cares if the bits arrive in a slovenly manner because it knows it's in control of when the whole word will be processed.

So there's no dejittering involved.

It's (sort of) analogous to async USB - the dac (master clock) controls the rate and precision with which the data is fed into the dac instead of having to be the slave to the transport

AndyU
27-10-11, 03:59 PM
In other posts JohnW explicitly mentions 3 stages of de-jittering. I think the Sabre chip uses ASRC too. The clock in the MDAC could only be a true master if it was fed to the source and controlled the source clock too. This is common in studios, and used by people like dCS, but not done (so far) in the MDAC.

ChrisPa
27-10-11, 04:01 PM
Hi Chris, I have both the SB3 and Touch, and as far as I know they can both be controlled from an ipod touch (get a cheap one off ebay) using the iPeng app. This removes any user-interface comparisons, and to be honest, I prefer the large uncluttered display of the SB3. I only really bought the touch to see if I could get the Asynch USB working (which I couldn't). The only reason I've left it in place is that it can do 24bit 96kHz, whereas I believe the SB3 is limited to 16/48 (I might slightly wrong, but I know it's less high def capable). If you can live without that, then I think you've done the right thing sticking with the SB3.there's a similar interface for the android

Though I like there being a glossy interface in the device playing. I keep pondering the use of a Windows tablet for the hifi pc so that it's got a built in display and people could wander up to it without wondering who's disappeared with the 'remote'.

But I'm now on something like the 4th or 5th rebuild/update to my hifi pc to get it fast/quiet/cool enough and don't trust a current w7 tablet pc to do the same things

ChrisPa
27-10-11, 04:03 PM
In other posts JohnW explicitly mentions 3 stages of de-jittering. I think the Sabre chip uses ASRC too. The clock in the MDAC could only be a true master if it was fed to the source and controlled the source clock too. This is common in studios, and used by people like dCS, but not done (so far) in the MDAC.Yes it is. That's why I keep repeating this. Look at the back panel of the mdac

..IIRC from previous posts John said the sabre's dejitter downs't really work so is bypassed in the Audiolab products

AndyU
27-10-11, 04:37 PM
So how do you feed the clock from the MDAC to say a squeezebox ...?

Dominik
27-10-11, 09:45 PM
Here's the full list of remote codes for CD/CDQ & DQ:


Audiolab 8200CDQ RC-5 Remote codes
==================================

System code 20:
---------------
NUM_0 0
NUM_1 1
NUM_2 2
NUM_3 3
NUM_4 4
NUM_5 5
NUM_6 6
NUM_7 7
NUM_8 8
NUM_9 9
TIME 11
STORE 20
DISPLAY 21
REPEAT 29
TRACK_UP 32
TRACK_DN 33
TRIG_EN 40
TRIG_DIS 42
OPEN_CLOSE 45
PAUSE 48
SEARCH_DN 50
SEARCH_UP 52
PLAY 53
STOP 54
FILTER 55
DIG_UP 56
DIG_DN 57
MENU 58
PROGRAM 59
USB 101
COAX1 102
COAX2 103
OPT1 104
OPT2 105


System code 16:
---------------
MUTE 13
VOLUME_UP 16
VOLUME_DN 17


System code 5:
--------------
VIDEO 63


System code 17:
----------------
TUNER 63


System code 20:
---------------
CD 63


System code 21:
---------------
AUX 63


Audiolab 8200DQ RC-5 Remote codes
=================================

System code 13:
---------------
NUM_0 0
NUM_1 1
NUM_2 2
NUM_3 3
NUM_4 4
NUM_5 5
NUM_6 6
NUM_7 7
NUM_8 8
NUM_9 9
MUTE 13
MENU 14
INFO 15
VOLUME_UP 16
VOLUME_DN 17
DISPLAY 18
USB 20
AUX 21
OPT1 22
OPT2 23
COAX1 24
COAX2 25
BAL_R 26
BAL_L 27
TRACK_UP 32
TRACK_DN 33
PRE 34
TRIG 35
PRESET 36
FILTER 47
PLAY 53
STOP 54


System code 5:
--------------
VIDEO 63


System code 17:
---------------
TUNER 63

ChrisPa
28-10-11, 12:08 AM
So how do you feed the clock from the MDAC to say a squeezebox ...?Let's start from where I started first...
with a dedicated lakewest data transport, it would be designed to use a word clock whenever it was available

For any other device, the options are
- it may already have a word clock input built in
- you'd have to mod the circuit
- you wouldn't bother
a squeezebox would fit into one of the latter two options

Interestingly, the back panel photos of the mdac show both a word clock out a word clock in connection - the 'sync' connectors

sq225917
28-10-11, 12:32 AM
Not any more they don't the legends are gone from the production units though the function remains. I don't think John can bypass the demurred on the sabre chip, the asrc is part of it for example, he does implement additional features to make things better however.

PhilCTTE
28-10-11, 01:08 AM
Never seen a mention regard sync link in specs. Pictures clearly have it labelled I just thought the lack of it in details was an oversight. I have been toying with the idea of modding my Sonos. Would be good to get this cleared up.

ChrisPa
28-10-11, 01:41 AM
Never seen a mention regard sync link in specs. Pictures clearly have it labelled I just thought the lack of it in details was an oversight. I have been toying with the idea of modding my Sonos. Would be good to get this cleared up.
Hello Mr. Westlake, in your opinion, what are the cd or dvd transport that works better with the m-dac?
thank you!
cheers
sergio
Hi Sergiox,

Any Transport that can be Clock-Locked to the MDAC - Old Arcams, Cambridge Audio CDT (Diskmagic), Deltec / DPA.

But these will be hard to find (working) these days, although I understand that DPA will add a "Clock-Lock" board to most CD players for GBP250... But I'm only going by what I hear via the Internet...

Otherwise, any transport that passes MDAC's Bit Perfect test.

We will have a matching "Transport device" within the next 6 months...hopefully that clears it up

I think SQ's reference is that there is no longer a sync input connector
(I had a look at the back in Manchester, and also thought there was only 1 connector there, but didn't look in any detail)

vishnu737
28-10-11, 01:54 AM
Here's the full list of remote codes for CD/CDQ & DQ:



Thanks Dominik, really appreciated that's a great help.

Richard

ADL
28-10-11, 01:56 AM
I do not think that networked data (it does not matter if they call it upnp) is something more easy to work with than spdif. On network you still have all kind of trouble - collisions, bandwith managment, aplications priority, packet loss and who knows what else. You still need to make sure that all data is received. Audio data especially still will heavily depend on software.
And also you need to think what to do with big bright monitor while listening, otherwise you can not manage playlists (the same thing with media players). Thank you, bye bye. Of course, it is possible to build powerful and silent, but for what money. Unless industry comes up with something simpe and purpose built, I will stick to old way - burn compilations onto CD-R, switch of computer and give a chance to CD player earn its retirement.
Networked data is much more flexible and give you more advantages than you can imagine...
Forget about problems as collision, application priority or bandwidth, all are manged by TCP/IP protocol. Just put a Gigabit cable in your home.

I'm not an expert in networking but in my house I have about 25 IP devices connected in a wired Gigabit network with a WiFi Access Point:
1) Marantz NA7004 Network Player
2) Sonos ZP90 multiroom system
3) Yamaha RXV-3900 AV Amplifier
4) QNAP NMP-1000P media player
5) QNAP TS 210 NAS where I store both FLAC and MP3 files and avi and MKV video files
6) HT format PC
7) Ipad1, iPad2, iPhone4, Samsung GalaxyS2 smartphones
8) some other minor items as modem, router, switches, etc

In such Network I can stream video files with full HD resolution (1080p), so banwidth for Audio streaming is not really a problem...

I can controll Sonos, Marantz and Yamaha from all my mobile devices, using their own App or DLNA app. DLNA is a very user friendly feature, no need of special configuration to connect devices.

Apple is of course at the top of user experience: Yesterday I just upgraded my Marantz with the Airplay feature (FW downloaded via Intenet directly form the Marantz device nad then installed), so I can stream audio files directly from iOS devices. Once upgraded the Marantz, automatically all iOS devices connected to the Marantz identifying it as a Airplay speaker.

Internet Radio is also a very nice feature, of course most of them stream at 128Kbps but Naim radio and others streams at 320Kbps.
The marantz has a good DAC but I'm waiting for the MDAC to improve the SQ.
Having all my CD collection (more than 500 CD) on the NAS is very useful, but I like also to pick a cd and insert it into my old cd player.
The new technolgy can coexist with the old one, simply it will be integrated into a wider environment.

That's the future, dont' fight with it but try to integrate with it, difficult for us because we are not "Digital Native"...

JohnW
28-10-11, 02:09 AM
The MDAC has a Sync Link interface both over Optical, 64Fs, 96Fs, 128Fs, 192Fs, 256Fs or 384Fs - Coax is WordClock Out only.

I'm not sure how you would Sync to the SB - I don’t have one... Nor have I held one in my hands.

The idea behind Clock Syncing is to lock the DAC's Clock to the Data Source - thus allowing the DPLL BW of the ESS to reduce to its lowest setting - thus least intrusive ASRC.

In simple terms, unlike other implementations of ASRC, the ESS leaves the vast majority of Audio samples "Bit Perfect" and only very occasionally say every second will it insert an additional sample (say 1 out of 84 Million) to correct for Time domain energy errors.

"Conventional" Sample rate converters modify EVERY sample - the real beauty of the ESS ASRC is to leave the vast majority of Audio samples untouched - in fact only adding "Correction" pulses...

Locking the MDAC to the Data source - minimises the need to insert these "Correction samples" – and also removes any “Audio related” Modulation – I.e. removes any correlated jitter patterns (and thus Correlated correction pulses).

The Clock Lock interface will work with older CD transports I mentioned earlier + its really intended for our future Transport / Streamer.

We have full control of its function (Clock Rate) via software – so we can increase it functionality via a later software update – i.e. add direct support for units such as the SB (if it has a Clock In interface).

John

strocky
28-10-11, 04:13 AM
Hi guys,
I just received the newsletter from Nottingham superfi, which says they are having an Audiolab open event with the 8000DQ and mdac (mdac from Friday, apparently)- and 20% discount.
Just a heads up for anyone interested.
No connection to them apart from an occasional customer.

Here's the link (http://www.superfi.co.uk/emails/oct11/Nottingham-Eshot-27-10-11.html?utm_source=DM&utm_medium=email&utm_term=webview&utm_content=Nottingham-Eshot-27-10-11&utm_campaign=Nottingham-Eshot-27-10-11)

Mods: if this is inapropiate in any way, apologies and please remove, I just thought that maybe any local fellow pfm'ers might be interested.

Bit of a long shot but could a kindly PinkFisher go down on my behalf and use the voucher to pre-order a MDAC for me?

I've spoke to the shop (it's an instore purchase only :( ) and they require a 10% discount for pre-order, which I can forward immediately via Paypal Gift or BT

Obviously I would re-compensate any fuel/parking/travel charges etc, arrange the uplift from the shop in a Months time (as it's a pre-order) and chuck some Beer tokens your way

TimR
28-10-11, 06:53 AM
But I'm now on something like the 4th or 5th rebuild/update to my hifi pc to get it fast/quiet/cool enough and don't trust a current w7 tablet pc to do the same things

I've read that the (now discontinued) Dell inspiron mini 9 is fanless and has a solid state disk, so it should be silent. I've been tempted to pick one up off ebay to see if it could run softsqueeze (or Winamp if it can be made to output bit-perfect data).

TimR
28-10-11, 06:58 AM
I'm not sure how you would Sync to the SB - I don’t have one... Nor have I held one in my hands.

John, I would happily send you one on loan if it's something you'd like to have a play with. Rip it to bits, by all means!

rtrt
28-10-11, 07:03 AM
I've read that the (now discontinued) Dell inspiron mini 9 is fanless and has a solid state disk, so it should be silent. I've been tempted to pick one up off ebay to see if it could run softsqueeze (or Winamp if it can be made to output bit-perfect data).

have one at home unused currently - hackintoshed it ages ago and messed it up somehow about 6 months ago - will get around to sorting it out sometime before christmas.

can confirm it's definitely fanless and has a small ssd. iirc ssd's came in 4, 8, 16G versions and because they were early in the ssd market they dont have any form of trim or garbage collection. Think this will mean OS latency would increase over time but not sure that would affect it's ability as an audio source much if at all.

never used it as a usb digital source but did use it with a decent set of headphones a few times - don't remember any background noise specifics so it may well be quite quiet electrically.

vishnu737
28-10-11, 07:27 AM
Hi Richard,
As far as I'm aware (and I could be mistaken), there is no standard for the RC connection - so we have our own:-

Not sure if this helps, but we designed the RC loop really for our own Lakewest / Peachtree products - thus the Audiolab follows.

John


Hi John,

Can you just confirm that as just looking on the Audiolab website and the DQ manual says..

"An external 3.5mm remote control bus is included to facilitate connection to suitably equipped 8200 series components and to multi room controllers etc."

So is the manual incorrect or is there a particular multi room controller that the DQ will work with?

thanks

Richard

ChrisPa
28-10-11, 07:33 AM
I've read that the (now discontinued) Dell inspiron mini 9 is fanless and has a solid state disk, so it should be silent. I've been tempted to pick one up off ebay to see if it could run softsqueeze (or Winamp if it can be made to output bit-perfect data).Interesting, but I'd really be looking for a tablet not a netbook

I'm currently running headless - hence using a netbook, networked PC or tablet as a remote - and I'd intend to do the same thing if I used an adjacent Windows tablet. The pain of running headless is that any time you need access to the machine at boot time (any hardware tweaks etc.) then you need to drag out a monitor, mouse and keyboards. A tablet remote is ideal because of the instant-on - a 20 sec delay to bring a netbook out of hibernation when you want to pause music is less than ideal!

Also I've been through Windows XP and Windows 7 32bit using a 16G CF card as an SSD, to get to where the PC is now. I've now reached the stage of using W7 64bit, which therefore needs minimum 20Gb disk and hence after a temporary period having just gone to a 60Gb SSD... The 16Gb CF card gave disastrous responsiveness after a few windows updates. Whilst I know the CF card wasn't actually designed to be used as a hard disk, but trim and garbage collection are essential to get an effective SSD form my experience.

Effectively a tablet remote imitates how a tablet PC should be in practice. Most of the interface (into spotify) is simply tapping the screen, and if you need to type, which isn't that often, then bring up the on-screen keyboard. The advantage of the remote tablet is that you can always pinch-to zoom if you need finer control

So any suggestions for an affordable, fanless, acceptable performance W7 tablet would be interesting ... (Although at the moment I'd rather save expenditure for the DAC and power amps and speakers)

TimR
28-10-11, 07:35 AM
rtrt, Did you ever have the Dell ruunning XP? Just wondered how creaky it would be. Not that I want to run any more than a media player...

ChrisPa
28-10-11, 07:37 AM
"An external 3.5mm remote control bus is included to facilitate connection to suitably equipped 8200 series components and to multi room controllers etc."

So is the manual incorrect or is there a particular multi room controller that the DQ will work with?Don't think that means the manual is incorrect, but your question about particular controllers is pertinent

TimR
28-10-11, 08:06 AM
Interesting, but I'd really be looking for a tablet not a netbook

I'm currently running headless - hence using a netbook, networked PC or tablet as a remote - and I'd intend to do the same thing if I used an adjacent Windows tablet. The pain of running headless is that any time you need access to the machine at boot time (any hardware tweaks etc.) then you need to drag out a monitor, mouse and keyboards. !
Sounds like you want to solve a different problem to me.
I take it your pc is nowhere near your TV then? The obvious solution being to use the TV VGA in and a wireless keyboard.

A tablet remote is ideal because of the instant-on - a 20 sec delay to bring a netbook out of hibernation when you want to pause music is less than ideal!

I hadn't thought about the bootup time for windows. You're right - that would be quite a pain. I guess it would have to be left on.
All the more apparent that the SB touch ticks every single box other than the async USB/ clock lock issue.

Also I've been through Windows XP and Windows 7 32bit using a 16G CF card as an SSD, to get to where the PC is now. I've now reached the stage of using W7 64bit, which therefore needs minimum 20Gb disk and hence after a temporary period having just gone to a 60Gb SSD... The 16Gb CF card gave disastrous responsiveness after a few windows updates. Whilst I know the CF card wasn't actually designed to be used as a hard disk, but trim and garbage collection are essential to get an effective SSD form my experience.

Linux would probably make a lot of sense in my scenario (i.e. just trying to replace the SB with a similar but Async-USB-friendly streaming device), but unfortunately I don't understand it :p

(Although at the moment I'd rather save expenditure for the DAC and power amps and speakers)

Difficult to argue with that!

rtrt
28-10-11, 08:42 AM
rtrt, Did you ever have the Dell ruunning XP? Just wondered how creaky it would be. Not that I want to run any more than a media player...

No I picked 16G one with Linux as it was cheaper.

Think Windows option was indeed XP - something about MS 'artificially' limiting Vista/7 to machines with larger screens. I'd have a look on the MyDellMini site for XP performance questions.

Upgraded the RAM to max of 2G and put a 32G SDHC card in - sits flush so effectively it has 48G storage - enough for my files, some music, tv and movies (not HD tho) for long journeys, weekends away etc.

Played around with Linux for 1/2 an hour and then got busy with the hackintosh instructions - became the cheapest MacOS device i've ever owned.

I'm hoping to pick up my MDAC soon and use that with my old iMac. If there are issues with the iMac then i'll try the Dell as a fallback.

Whether I would stay MacOS or install Windows/Linux at that point i'm not sure - probably come here for some advice!
------------

If MDAC arrives soon I could test the Dell into it but the rest of my system pretty poor so not sure how much value in that.

ChrisPa
28-10-11, 09:34 AM
Sounds like you want to solve a different problem to me.
I take it your pc is nowhere near your TV then? The obvious solution being to use the TV VGA in and a wireless keyboard.I'd get told off if I stole the TV while configuring other PCs

I hadn't thought about the bootup time for windows. You're right - that would be quite a pain. I guess it would have to be left on.
All the more apparent that the SB touch ticks every single box other than the async USB/ clock lock issue.

Linux would probably make a lot of sense in my scenario (i.e. just trying to replace the SB with a similar but Async-USB-friendly streaming device), but unfortunately I don't understand it :pMy intention behind use of W7 is that (on current standards) anything new will come out on Windows first - Spotify was the prime example. I refuse to ever go down the closed-shop route of Apple (although Hackintosh might be a possibility if I ever feel forced to)

Otherwise, the SB is more 'together'. The criticism it leaves is the total number of remotes in use (I know there are ways round that). And they all walk round the room on their own, and hide down the back of settees.

Although at some point I will investigate the earlier post pointing to remote apps for foobar and jriver

With regards Foobar:
- Can anyone suggest an acceptable user interface for foobar?
- Does anyone know how to get Foobar to autoplay CDs and auto-download CD track data?

dlcastles
28-10-11, 01:20 PM
With regards Foobar:
- Can anyone suggest an acceptable user interface for foobar?
- Does anyone know how to get Foobar to autoplay CDs and auto-download CD track data?

Chris, if you're looking for an iPad, iPhone, Android interface for foobar take a look at foo_touchremote...
http://wintense.com/faq/foo_touchremote

It's a little finicky to set up - I remember having to install the plugin in a very particular way before Foobar recognised it - but it works well. Apple Remote app is reasonably slick, though nowhere near as nice as Squeezepad to use.

Also found a reasonable Foobar substitute for Spicefly Sugarcube that bases itself on MusicIP here...
http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=68068&st=0&p=616151&#entry616151

Shame Squeezepad can't remote control Foobar, Foobar can't interface with Squeezeserver, no one's been to get a Squeezebox to stream properly to asynch DACs, or someone can't come up with a version of Squeezeslave that streams 24/96 over USB....

-- Duncan

Wendonside
28-10-11, 08:32 PM
The marantz has a good DAC but I'm waiting for the MDAC to improve the SQ.

Thanks for the summary of what you're using ADL. I'll be very interested to hear what improvements the MDAC brings to your NA7004. I'm thinking of going down that route myself - biggest problem is that in New Zealand for some reason the NA7004 retails for the equivalent of about £1,250!! Let us know the results when you do the upgrade.

uwe061
29-10-11, 01:58 AM
John, i follow this thread for a long time and i have a question. I have a lot of 24/192 files on hard disc (vinyl rips and hires downloads) and want to play the music from my MacBook Pro with Audirvana Plus (player software). Which will bring better sound quality: to use the MDAC with USB and with Upsampling (not bit perfect…) ore to buy an high quality 24/192 USB/SPDIF-Converter (Audiophilleo2, Stello U3…) and go with the coaxial input? From what i understand the USB input of the MDAC is more jitter-optimized than the coaxial input…? What do you think? Best regards from Berlin, Uwe

andrek
29-10-11, 02:33 AM
Newby here: I'm considering buying the M-DAC, but I also need the AV-bypass option.
I have some questions what to expect of the external power supply update/AV-bypass.

My setup would be :
- Denon 3808 for AV, pre-output RCA
- M-Dac for Stereo, pre-out XLR
- Power-supply/AV bypass: RCA from AV, XLR from M-DAC, output XLR to power-amp.

Questions:
would this setup work ? (RCA and XLR inputs, RCA tranformed into XLR output) ?
when could we expect this power-supply/AV switch ?

nbc
29-10-11, 03:09 AM
Hi andrek,

Yes the psu will be capable of coverting the rca of your reciever to xlr so both your av amp and mdac can be connected to your power amp by the same xlr output on the psu.

Your planned setup is very close to mine without conversion of rca there would be no way of getting both sources connected by the same cable unless you settled for rca from mdac aswell.So the psu should ideal for your setup, IIRC JW said it would be Feb 2012 at the earliest.

JohnW
29-10-11, 11:23 AM
John, i follow this thread for a long time and i have a question. I have a lot of 24/192 files on hard disc (vinyl rips and hires downloads) and want to play the music from my MacBook Pro with Audirvana Plus (player software). Which will bring better sound quality: to use the MDAC with USB and with Upsampling (not bit perfect…) ore to buy an high quality 24/192 USB/SPDIF-Converter (Audiophilleo2, Stello U3…) and go with the coaxial input? From what i understand the USB input of the MDAC is more jitter-optimized than the coaxial input…? What do you think? Best regards from Berlin, Uwe

I don’t recommend using Upsampling on the PC as this will just introduce Transient ringing (standard FIR response) - I suggest just setting the MDAC Digital filter to Optimal Transient or Optimal Transient XD type.

If you can wait for 4-5 months, then our matching CD Transport / Streamer will offer isolated & clock-lock Async. USB to 192 kHz.

Otherwise, yes MDAC's Async. USB input is "Clock-Locked" to the DAC - so in thoery offers better performance then the SPDIF inputs, however I believe the difference should be small.

John

JohnW
29-10-11, 11:27 AM
Newby here: I'm considering buying the M-DAC, but I also need the AV-bypass option.
I have some questions what to expect of the external power supply update/AV-bypass.

My setup would be :
- Denon 3808 for AV, pre-output RCA
- M-Dac for Stereo, pre-out XLR
- Power-supply/AV bypass: RCA from AV, XLR from M-DAC, output XLR to power-amp.

Questions:
would this setup work ? (RCA and XLR inputs, RCA tranformed into XLR output) ?
when could we expect this power-supply/AV switch ?

Yes, the PSU AV bypass will convert a Single-ended RCA input to a nice buffered balanced signal - The PSU should be available in 2 - 3 Months. As we get closer to the date, it would be good to know how many people are interested in units - so we can plan production numbers.

John

JohnW
29-10-11, 11:28 AM
John, I would happily send you one on loan if it's something you'd like to have a play with. Rip it to bits, by all means!

I could look at adding a clock-lock interface to it...

mcoteca
29-10-11, 11:42 AM
Yes, the PSU AV bypass will convert a Single-ended RCA input to a nice buffered balanced signal - The PSU should be available in 2 - 3 Months. As we get closer to the date, it would be good to know how many people are interested in units - so we can plan production numbers.

John

Hi John,

I checked out previous posts going way back, but I must have missed it: what are the characteristics of this upcoming PSU? If it provides sound performance benefits, I would certainly be interested. I'm planning to purchase my M-DAC soon; they are coming out in Canada on Dec. 1st according to Planet of Sound Distribution web site. I haven't heard it (nor any previous Audiolab products for that matter), but the good things I have read on this thread and all your postings have convinced me this is the way to go. Since I have active speakers (Linkwitz Plutos), I intend to make use of the digital preamp. By the way, my previous DAC contender was a Bel Canto 1.5. I currently run a DACMagic (going thru my Arcam AVR280).

Cheers,
Martin

JohnW
29-10-11, 11:56 AM
Absolutely! Just let me know when we could meet there (the sooner, the better - driving through mountains in snow wouldn't be much fun...) and I'll plan a trip - it's about 7 hours drive from Warsaw.

We where just visiting our place in Jeseniky this morning, and thought we would pop over to Poland - the Czech / Polish boarder being only 25km or so... well I can say that unless you have a 4x4 with Diff-Lock and Winter tyres, theres no way you would want to do the jorney in the Snow - not atleast the route we took.

The roads on the Czech side where bad enough, but 50m over into the Polish side, and we did a U-Turn... Pot-Holes & totally covered with damp, wet leaves - as soon as you have Snow and Ice, No way...

Sadly, I dont have any OLED update kits until I visit China this month... so it will be December or so before I'mm be back in Czech with the kits...

John

JohnW
29-10-11, 12:05 PM
Hi John,

I checked out previous posts going way back, but I must have missed it: what are the characteristics of this upcoming PSU? If it provides sound performance benefits, I would certainly be interested. I'm planning to purchase my M-DAC soon; they are coming out in Canada on Dec. 1st according to Planet of Sound Distribution web site. I haven't heard it (nor any previous Audiolab products for that matter), but the good things I have read on this thread and all your postings have convinced me this is the way to go. Since I have active speakers (Linkwitz Plutos), I intend to make use of the digital preamp. By the way, my previous DAC contender was a Bel Canto 1.5. I currently run a DACMagic (going thru my Arcam AVR280).

Cheers,
Martin

Ill be the first to admit that we haven’t listen to the MDAC with "Upgraded" PSU yet, but from past experience upgrading PSU's always results in sonic benefits - so I'd be amazed if it’s not the case with the MDAC... It will just be a question of how much benefit the PSU will bring...

We have some clever tricks that should result in a superb PSU - but nothings for sure with audio...

John

Jo Sharp
29-10-11, 02:27 PM
Shame Squeezepad can't remote control Foobar, Foobar can't interface with Squeezeserver, no one's been to get a Squeezebox to stream properly to asynch DACs, or someone can't come up with a version of Squeezeslave that streams 24/96 over USB....

-- Duncan

Vortexbox might give you options...

mark.king
29-10-11, 03:02 PM
Yes I would be interested in the psu. I take it it will be the same size and choice of finishes?

JohnW
29-10-11, 03:05 PM
Yes I would be interested in the psu. I take it it will be the same size and choice of finishes?

Yes - we will try to match the Colour and Finish... not sure how stable MDAC production will be in this regard... But we will do our best :)

John

Vodnik
29-10-11, 03:37 PM
theres no way you would want to do the jorney in the Snow - not atleast the route we took.

Hmm... Not good... There aren't too many road options available, unless I add a couple more hours to the trip (and the trip was already too long to go there and back in one day, so I would have to find some hotel to spend a night in). But if the road is as bad as you described it then it probably wouldn't be such a good idea to try and drive there in December...
I need to check other routes, but it doesn't look good.
As much as I would love to meet you and have my CDQ upgraded by you personally, maybe I should consider other options. Maybe you could send the kit to me or to Horn Distribution (or arrange to have someone in IAG UK send it) and then folks at Horn would install it. They are supposedly good at all the service work, so once they have the parts and instructions, they should do a decent job. I just wonder if they have the equipment required to upgrade the software?... Payment for the kit shouldn't be a problem, as there are many options available: credit card, bank transfer, PayPal etc.. Actually I started to be a bit worried about the cost of the trip to Jeseniki - with todays petrol price and with the hotel stay included it would make the total cost of my CDQ upgrade quite high...

Pawel

mark.king
29-10-11, 05:03 PM
Well as long as it is silver will do. Everything I have is various types of silver :-) black won't do though ;-)

TimR
30-10-11, 02:51 AM
I could look at adding a clock-lock interface to it...

Hi John, sounds superb. Much as this would be my dream modification, only do this if it's for your own benefit aswell as mine. I know you must be massively busy. If you're serious though, please PM me a postal address and I'll sort that out no problem at all.

JohnW
30-10-11, 03:06 AM
Hmm... Not good... There aren't too many road options available, unless I add a couple more hours to the trip (and the trip was already too long to go there and back in one day, so I would have to find some hotel to spend a night in). But if the road is as bad as you described it then it probably wouldn't be such a good idea to try and drive there in December...
I need to check other routes, but it doesn't look good.
As much as I would love to meet you and have my CDQ upgraded by you personally, maybe I should consider other options. Maybe you could send the kit to me or to Horn Distribution (or arrange to have someone in IAG UK send it) and then folks at Horn would install it. They are supposedly good at all the service work, so once they have the parts and instructions, they should do a decent job. I just wonder if they have the equipment required to upgrade the software?... Payment for the kit shouldn't be a problem, as there are many options available: credit card, bank transfer, PayPal etc.. Actually I started to be a bit worried about the cost of the trip to Jeseniki - with todays petrol price and with the hotel stay included it would make the total cost of my CDQ upgrade quite high...

Pawel

After driving across the “Mountain Pass” between Poland and CZ I can understand - we would offer for you to stay with us - and take a short break, we have a small hotel (Pension) really (I'd not charge you for the room), with a short ski slope with ski lifts behind.... odd really as having grown up in England from the age of five I cannot ski and hate the cold (that’s not to say that it’s not cold an damp in England).... but it’s really beautiful in Jeseniki in the spring / summer...

Might be easier to post to me in CZ - But I worry abut the delivery system - and the risks involved...

John

JohnW
30-10-11, 03:12 AM
Hi John, sounds superb. Much as this would be my dream modification, only do this if it's for your own benefit aswell as mine. I know you must be massively busy. If you're serious though, please PM me a postal address and I'll sort that out no problem at all.

Hi Tim,

Without looking at the clock structure in the SB, I will not promise I can add a clock-lock interface - but I'll sure have a good try :)

Hold on - does this mean you’re going for an MDAC? :)

I knew I'd get you...

I’ll PM you with my address in Czech Rep.

John

Steven Toy
30-10-11, 03:22 AM
Why not cross the border at Česky Ťěšín/Cieszyn near Ostrava? It's a river crossing rather than a mountain pass. There was a nice Italian style restaurant on the Polish side the last time I visited although this was a long time ago.

uwe061
30-10-11, 04:51 AM
John, it was my fault - i did'nt mean "upsampling" but Downsampling (from 24/192 files to 24/96). But if the new transport will feature 24/192 i will wait and buy one :-) What will it cost?
Uwe

TimR
30-10-11, 05:02 AM
Hold on - does this mean you’re going for an MDAC? :)

I knew I'd get you...

Bugger! I've played into the hands of an evil genius :)

gints
30-10-11, 05:19 AM
If you can wait for 4-5 months, then our matching CD Transport / Streamer will offer isolated & clock-lock Async. USB to 192 kHz.

John

If you are going to make a transport with CD mechanism, would it be more logical to update a CDQ with MDAC output stage and other transport/streamer features? As a potential buyer who still is interested in CD and need to make a savings before purchase, I will be confused, especially you earlier said that there is a later plan to update a CDQ with MDAC output stage as well.

JohnW
30-10-11, 05:25 AM
John, it was my fault - i did'nt mean "upsampling" but Downsampling (from 24/192 files to 24/96). But if the new transport will feature 24/192 i will wait and buy one :-) What will it cost?
Uwe

Uwe,

Early days, I'd hope GBP389.... Atleast thats our target price...

John

JohnW
30-10-11, 05:31 AM
If you are going to make a transport with CD mechanism, would it be more logical to update a CDQ with MDAC output stage and other transport/streamer features? As a potential buyer who still is interested in CD and need to make a savings before purchase, I will be confused, especially you earlier said that there is a later plan to update a CDQ with MDAC output stage as well.

Hi Gints,

There's very good technical advantages in separating the Streaming device (with its WiFi connection) and USB (with its PC Ground noise) from the DAC sections...

The units will feature Clock-Locked operation; so much is to be gained from separating the "Noisy" sections from the DAC - with no performance "Disadvantages" (due to Clock-Locking)...

John

JohnW
30-10-11, 05:32 AM
Bugger! I've played into the hands of an evil genius :)

:p I did have to try very hard to win you over, reduced the level of Hiss in digital Pre, Asyn Buffer level indication etc... :D

JohnW
30-10-11, 05:38 AM
If you are going to make a transport with CD mechanism, would it be more logical to update a CDQ with MDAC output stage and other transport/streamer features? As a potential buyer who still is interested in CD and need to make a savings before purchase, I will be confused, especially you earlier said that there is a later plan to update a CDQ with MDAC output stage as well.

We still plan to offer update PCB's for 8200CD / CDQ with 192kHz USB & CROSS OPS - once we have completed the "MDAC" range...

John

vishnu737
30-10-11, 05:43 AM
We still plan to offer update PCB's for 8200CD / CDQ with 192kHz USB & CROSS OPS - once we have completed the "MDAC" range...

John

That's good news, and the DQ I assume?

Will that make the DQ and the MDAC the same sound quality?
Any idea of an approximate date/cost and im happy to be the first in the queue :)

Richard

Steven Toy
30-10-11, 05:46 AM
. We still plan to offer update PCB's for 8200CD / CDQ with 192kHz USB & CROSS OPS - once we have completed the "MDAC" range..

Yay! :)

dtd
30-10-11, 06:07 AM
We still plan to offer update PCB's for 8200CD / CDQ with 192kHz USB & CROSS OPS - once we have completed the "MDAC" range...

John

Oh dear JohnW, you're really not helping me make my mind up on taking the MDAC now!

Without having you commit to anything timelines, what kind of time windows are we talking about here? Within 12 months? 12-18 months?

sq225917
30-10-11, 06:17 AM
I'd help IAG concentrate on delivering the MDAC into customers hands first... ;-)

TimR
30-10-11, 06:18 AM
We still plan to offer update PCB's for 8200CD / CDQ with 192kHz USB & CROSS OPS - once we have completed the "MDAC" range...

John

No chance of a clock-out being included in that update I suppose ....? ;)

EIffel
30-10-11, 06:53 AM
I am very curious about the full "MDAC" range: what the brief is for each of the components (specs, unique features, price) and timeline.

What I understand is that there is
- the 'Original' MDAC, currently in production
- An upgraded power supply unit with HT passthrough (and single ended to balanced conversion) due in 3ish months (below £300 IIRC)
- An amplifier (on which very little has been said, but to come before the transport/streamer)
- A transport/streamer (32bit/192kHz compatible over USB(?), with WiFi connection and CD with clock input for est. cost of £389, within 6 months)
- The mythical QDAC, which is unconfirmed (but which may add to the MDAC an analog preamp, should accept 192kHz on some of its inputs and some surprise features!)

Am I missing anything? :)

Vodnik
30-10-11, 06:54 AM
After driving across the “Mountain Pass” between Poland and CZ I can understand - we would offer for you to stay with us - and take a short break, we have a small hotel (Pension) really (I'd not charge you for the room),

Well... This makes the trip more attractive again! Thanks a lot for this offer! It would be great to be able stay with you - it would also make the trip planning easier, as I could arrive late and you would be able to take care of my CDQ the same day in the evening or the next day morning. More flexibility in planning.
I just checked that going through one of the main Polish-Czech border crossings in Tesin (Cieszyn) and then through Opava is quite acceptable and there are good roads both sides of the border. Please contact me by email at vodnikpk(at)gmail.com with your address in Jeseniki Mountains, so that I can check the route in more detail.

Pawel

arthur
30-10-11, 07:42 AM
Yay! :)

Indeed Steven, but it sounds like a good while yet
:(

Steven Toy
30-10-11, 07:51 AM
No rush. I have still got new valves burning in so another moving target is perhaps not a good idea. 25 hours and counting. Another 175 to go... That is 175 x 0.45 KW :o

JohnW
30-10-11, 08:17 AM
Indeed Steven, but it sounds like a good while yet
:(

Yes, looking at late next year (Around this time next year),

John

JohnW
30-10-11, 08:19 AM
No chance of a clock-out being included in that update I suppose ....? ;)

I could take a look - I had not considered it... but we could have the same arrangement as MDAC...

John

JohnW
30-10-11, 08:26 AM
I am very curious about the full "MDAC" range: what the brief is for each of the components (specs, unique features, price) and timeline.

What I understand is that there is
- the 'Original' MDAC, currently in production
- An upgraded power supply unit with HT passthrough (and single ended to balanced conversion) due in 3ish months (below £300 IIRC)
- An amplifier (on which very little has been said, but to come before the transport/streamer)

Correct

- A transport/streamer (32bit/192kHz compatible over USB(?), with WiFi connection and CD with clock input for est. cost of £389, within 6 months)

24/192kHz - not 32/192kHz (as we will be using a Clock-Locked SPDIF link)

- The mythical QDAC, which is unconfirmed (but which may add to the MDAC an analog preamp, should accept 192kHz on some of its inputs and some surprise features!)

Am I missing anything? :)

No basically sounds like a plan... :)

JohnW
30-10-11, 08:27 AM
I'd help IAG concentrate on delivering the MDAC into customers hands first... ;-)

Yes, Indeed...

sq225917
30-10-11, 08:49 AM
Crack that whip John they are slacking and making you look bad....

PhilCTTE
30-10-11, 09:02 AM
This sounds like an upgrade path for me over the next 12 months.:D

PSU/AV bypass
Digital Streamer.

As long as IAG don't scupper your plans.

Regards the streamer are you planning to do the software side yourselves?
How much in isolation can you develop the hardware side without the hooks into software controls. If it were standard processor based, bespoke PC dedicated for audio, but still able to run PC applications like iTunes / Spotify / Puremusic etc etc... would this be possible ? Or am I alone on these requirements?

JohnW
30-10-11, 09:04 AM
As long as IAG don't scupper your plans.

Erm... I heard no mention of IAG.... ;) Not necessarily...

JohnW
30-10-11, 09:11 AM
Regards the streamer are you planning to do the software side yourselves?
How much in isolation can you develop the hardware side without the hooks into software controls. If it were standard processor based, bespoke PC dedicated for audio, but still able to run PC applications like iTunes / Spotify / Puremusic etc etc... would this be possible ? Or am I alone on these requirements?

Our streamer will be more of a simple DLNA / uPnP device - with basic Internet radio etc. There’s no way we have the resources build a fully fledged all singing all dancing Streamer... but you will be able to stream Spotify from your PC Wirelessly etc.

John

PhilCTTE
30-10-11, 09:46 AM
Our streamer will be more of a simple DLNA / uPnP device - with basic Internet radio etc. There’s no way we have the resources build a fully fledged all singing all dancing Streamer... but you will be able to stream Spotify from your PC Wirelessly etc.

John


This is what I thought, but was hinting at alternative possibility about you and Domonik pimping a PC based product to you own design. Not bothering with the software.
There would have to be huge jump in SQ in comparison to all the other streamers available if the usablility is not there.

JohnW
30-10-11, 10:05 AM
This is what I thought, but was hinting at alternative possibility about you and Domonik pimping a PC based product to you own design. Not bothering with the software.
There would have to be huge jump in SQ in comparison to all the other streamers available if the usablility is not there.

I’d want to just make a simple (quite) little box that bridges the world of Computers / HiFi… I hate computers - they never work, unstable and I don’t want to spend days working out how to use them, only to find a few days later that its stopped working for no apparent reason! Life is too short!!! I just want HiFi (music) with no fuss or tears!!!

Our streamer will be Bit perfect up to 24/96kHz & Clock-locked to the DAC - so should make a great Audiophile device :) (I hope)

John

gints
30-10-11, 10:47 AM
Does it means that there will be no support for any decoding onboard? For example, to be able play flac files we still need computer who do decoding before data goes to streamer?

gints
30-10-11, 10:52 AM
Hi Gints,

There's very good technical advantages in separating the Streaming device (with its WiFi connection) and USB (with its PC Ground noise) from the DAC sections...

The units will feature Clock-Locked operation; so much is to be gained from separating the "Noisy" sections from the DAC - with no performance "Disadvantages" (due to Clock-Locking)...

John

Hmm, maybe it is not bad at all. On other hand it is financially more easy to build good system from blocks then spend big money all at once.

Gracey
30-10-11, 10:52 AM
Hi John,

I've placed my order for an MDAC now. Can you tell us anymore about your plans for the power amp and specs? It'd be pretty cool to connect the two via XLR :)

Gracey

Bolle
30-10-11, 10:57 AM
Our streamer will be more of a simple DLNA / uPnP device - with basic Internet radio etc. There’s no way we have the resources build a fully fledged all singing all dancing Streamer... but you will be able to stream Spotify from your PC Wirelessly etc.

John


Use something as this as basis?

http://www.streamunlimited.com/v3/en/audio_streaming_client.html

Plutox
30-10-11, 11:09 AM
Use something as this as basis?

http://www.streamunlimited.com/v3/en/audio_streaming_client.html
Interesting, but what does that gizmo achieve that I cannot do with a £200 netbook running JRiver or similar software?

JohnW
30-10-11, 11:13 AM
Does it means that there will be no support for any decoding onboard? For example, to be able play flac files we still need computer who do decoding before data goes to streamer?

It can decode Flacs :)

JohnW
30-10-11, 11:15 AM
Use something as this as basis?

http://www.streamunlimited.com/v3/en/audio_streaming_client.html

No - but this is the basis of the MF and Project streamers and others I'm sure...

We had a look at the platform, but its was REALLY unstable - and expensive...

John

JohnW
30-10-11, 11:15 AM
Use something as this as basis?

http://www.streamunlimited.com/v3/en/audio_streaming_client.html

Or the SB?

JohnW
30-10-11, 11:20 AM
Hi John,

I've placed my order for an MDAC now. Can you tell us anymore about your plans for the power amp and specs? It'd be pretty cool to connect the two via XLR :)

Gracey

The MDAC raises the price / performance bar at its price - but I cannot think of power amps at the price point that they deserve...

We are keeping the Specs. of the Amps under the lid - as we might go for a Patent on the designs - they will have a very interesting OPS topology... We are excited as they should sound very good... (I Hope)

Yes, they will have XLR inputs + can be used as a Stereo Amp, Bi-Amp or Bridged :) So you can upgrade your system by adding amps.

I guess I can say that they will be Class A Mosfet OPS with CROSS (with a twist) + 100W a channel :)

John

Gracey
30-10-11, 11:40 AM
Very interesting John! Look forward to learning more about them in due course.

Bolle
30-10-11, 02:02 PM
Or the SB?

If you use a SB as basis that'll be great!

I'm a very happy SB user. A Touch in my main system and a Radio in my bedroom.

A Touch with an async USB link to a CDQMDAC would be an awesome combination!

JohnW
30-10-11, 02:42 PM
If you use a SB as basis that'll be great!

I'm a very happy SB user. A Touch in my main system and a Radio in my bedroom.

A Touch with an async USB link to a CDQMDAC would be an awesome combination!

Gosh, by SB standards - our streamers UI going to be real crap, it well just be good enough to do the job - noway we can compete with there software or Display etc. :(

Adrian on this thread has offered to look into the linux Audio stack on the SB and to see if he can get the Async. USB going.

I'l also take a look at TimR's unit ands see if its possible to add Clock-Lock interface.

MDAC has such High Jitter attenuation, that I'm not sure its really needed...

John

JemHayward
30-10-11, 02:51 PM
Gosh, by SB standards - our streamers UI going to be real crap, it well just be good enough to do the job - noway we can compete with there software or Display etc. :(

John

My Linn Sneaky DS has no interface at all, a streamer doesn't need one, a good control point like Song Book etc. is all we need.

JemHayward
30-10-11, 02:55 PM
Oh, and whilst you are online John, any news on the first MDAC batch? I've been away so may have missed the latest and the preorders thread seems to have no real info to share...

amdismal
31-10-11, 12:53 AM
Gosh, by SB standards - our streamers UI going to be real crap, it well just be good enough to do the job - noway we can compete with there software or Display etc. :(

Might it be worth contacting them and seeing if you can license their system, but use your own hardware? That would be pretty sweet...

Vodnik
31-10-11, 03:13 AM
I guess I can say that they will be Class A Mosfet OPS with CROSS (with a twist) + 100W a channel :)

Okay, where do I pre-order?...


Pawel

russel
31-10-11, 03:26 AM
I guess I can say that they will be Class A Mosfet OPS with CROSS (with a twist) + 100W a channel :)

John

100 Watt class A is going to dissipate a phenomenal amount of heat, will it have dynamic biasing or some form of current dumping to keep the dissipation down?

JohnW
31-10-11, 03:48 AM
Hi Russel,

I did say with a "Twist" :)

The design will combine the advantages of CROSS coupled Class A MOSFET stage with brute force...

As I say, more when we decide if we are going to Patent the topology or not...

John

JohnW
31-10-11, 03:49 AM
Okay, where do I pre-order?...


Pawel

MDAC PSU first before we are ready with the Amps - tooling has yet to be opened...

John

JohnW
31-10-11, 03:50 AM
Oh, and whilst you are online John, any news on the first MDAC batch? I've been away so may have missed the latest and the preorders thread seems to have no real info to share...

Hi Jem,

No, I'll be Emailing poeple on the Pre-Order list tonight / tommorow to confirm collection details,

John

russel
31-10-11, 04:08 AM
Hi Russel,

I did say with a "Twist" :)

The design will combine the advantages of CROSS coupled Class A MOSFET stage with brute force...

As I say, more when we decide if we are going to Patent the topology or not...

John

I would be careful about patenting, a world wide patent would cost about 100K USD. If you want to enforce it, well how much have you got?.

If its really good maybe an IC manufacturer as a partner. Good news about the MDAC, thanks!

JohnW
31-10-11, 04:16 AM
I would be careful about patenting, a world wide patent would cost about 100K USD. If you want to enforce it, well how much have you got?

Yes, thats the issue...

russel
31-10-11, 04:42 AM
Yes, thats the issue...

I am intrigued, will you be selling boards only for the hoobyist?.

Plutox
31-10-11, 04:51 AM
a world wide patent would cost about 100K USD. If you want to enforce it, well how much have you got?.
Gosh, is it really that much? What chance a small-time inventor who comes up with a world-beating idea?

Didn't Quad patent the original current dumping topology back in the day? I'm sure that they wouldn't have spent 100K (adjusted for nineteen seventies pricing).

anubisgrau
31-10-11, 05:25 AM
what's the reason that inputs on USB & optical are limited to 96/24 while SPDIF is 192/24 ?

(i remember this was explained somewhere in one of the threads but god knows where)

russel
31-10-11, 05:28 AM
Gosh, is it really that much? What chance a small-time inventor who comes up with a world-beating idea?

Didn't Quad patent the original current dumping topology back in the day? I'm sure that they wouldn't have spent 100K (adjusted for nineteen seventies pricing).

Yes, it costs a lot for world wide. The main issue is for enforcement, a big company will just sit it out until you go bankrupt.

As a small inventor you have no chance, the best way is to go into partnership with a big company, who may well screw you anyway.

rtrt
31-10-11, 06:04 AM
MDAC manual is on the audiolab site

http://www.audiolab.co.uk/Downloading.aspx?Lang=En&Tab2=Manuals