I am getting interested in the Benchmark DAC1. Two people I have recently chatted with have traded CDS2s for a system built around one. Has anyone here done much of a comparison between the Benchmark and its pro audio or audiophile competitors (eg. Apogee miniDAC, RME, Chord DAC64, NOS DAC)?

Is there any difference at all in the sound quality from transports using this DAC? Or put another way, would a £100 DVD player get the same sound from the DAC as a £1500 Meridian transport?

Thanks

Andrew

IME transports have had an effect on every DAC I've ever tried, including the supposed 'immune to transport' ones.

I think its a fallacy that you can get similar sounds with a cheap DVD player.

Haven't heard the Benchmark, but I've often heard it compared to Levinson in presentation. If you dont get feedback on it I'd suggest duplicating the thread on zerogain.com, where I know some people definately are using it.

Ive heard the NOS dac and the DAC 64. The NOS dac is just fantastic with a simple and enjoyable presentation. The DAC 64 very ''HERE I AM!!!'' about it's presentation. Both good both different.

Whether the benchmark dac is better/worse than a CDS2 (or anything else) will just depend on what you like the presentation of the best.

Originally posted by Andrew B.
I am getting interested in the Benchmark DAC1. Two people I have recently chatted with have traded CDS2s for a system built around one. Has anyone here done much of a comparison between the Benchmark and its pro audio or audiophile competitors (eg. Apogee miniDAC, RME, Chord DAC64, NOS DAC)?


Tried these (and some others):

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/oedipus69/b1.jpg

This one is as good as any I've tried:)

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y73/oedipus69/b2.jpg

I bought the DAC1 for several reasons.

Firstly, to offer an outstanding upgrade over the Meridian player, facilitate the need to improve the PC's sound output, and provide superior headphone performance. In a word, I achieved this and without unnecessary costs. Is it better than a CDS2? Without doubt technically and sonically IMO, but unless you have the master recording or a given reference point, it is very difficult to argue either case.

Nice collection of kit you have there, Oedipus. Which one did you like best? Was that the Benchmark PCB or is it a homebrew?

{edit} I see now that the PCB is from the Benchmark DAC

Originally posted by Andrew B.
Nice collection of kit you have there, Oedipus. Which one did you like best?

The only one I still own is the Benchmark, although I liked the Levinson a lot for functional (rather than sonic) reasons.

You know that the Benchmark has a built in preamp for the main outputs (it's not just a headphone volume knob)? I mention this because if you only have digital sources and can live without a remote volume (and digital input selector), then you can use the Benchmark direct into the 50's (and sell on the CA2:)) It's one less box.


Is there any difference at all in the sound quality from transports using this DAC? Or put another way, would a £100 DVD player get the same sound from the DAC as a £1500 Meridian transport?

You can use any transport you like - the benchmark has an asynchronous sample rate converter to eliminate "incoming" jitter...

Benchmark have dropped the price for the DAC 1 in Germany to just under 1,000 Euro incl. VAT. Is that a sign of a DAC 2 coming soon?

Originally posted by Markus Sauer
Benchmark have dropped the price for the DAC 1 in Germany to just under 1,000 Euro incl. VAT. Is that a sign of a DAC 2 coming soon?

The US price hasn't changed (still $975). So I suspect (and hope) that they are just in the process of making the european prices slightly fairer.

Currently its $975 in the US, and £935 in the UK, hardly a fair exchange rate even including VAT (Sales Tax)

BTW - Does anyone know of anywhere in the UK where you can get a home demo of a DAC1, as far as I can see the only people who stock it are pro-audio shops that aren't that keen on home dems etc.

--
tom

I might well order one from Thomman in Germany, since they are a very respectable pro audio store and ship cheaply to the UK (and no duty since we are in the EU).
Thomman link (http://www.netzmarkt.de/thomann/artikel-177816.html?iwid=8&sn=e25928155f813656ed7860fe1fdef9ec)

There is also a cheap UK supplier here although I do not know them:
Advanced Sounds (http://www.advancedsounds.co.uk/)

The German route is about £50 cheaper.

Andrew

You mentioned a good point about using the DAC1 as preamp. I've been considering this with ATC's, but the 50's are too wide for the chosen room position.

What are your thoughts about the active ATC SCM 20 SL. How does this compare with the 50's, or even the SCM 35's with a decent amplifier. Are there decent active alternatives?

tomh

The pro audio shop SCV (http://www.scvlondon.co.uk) offered me a 7 day return (or 14 can't remember) if not happy.

Handy to see others are getting atc 50's too... (just need to confirm what I'm putting with the damn things!)

Andrew - thanks for the benchmark dac tip. Looks like a silly priced bargain as well. However, I'm not sure it can sound as good as the opus I just heard - can it?! If so, then it's 1k verses 3k for opus! Mmmm.... although I did try chords choral dac into my dvd player (cyrus dvd8 qdac) as a comparison, but I didn't like it as much. I couldn't see that digital village sell it anymore for a free trial. Did you order it yet? If so, where do you live as I'd love to hear it on the 50's! I'm in the south east (p_vantage@yahoo.co.uk)

Interesting about the atc pre bargain as well. Some dealers love to rip us off big time don't they. P.S I'm getting 2.5k off my new made to order atc 50's : )

Originally posted by PMR
What are your thoughts about the active ATC SCM 20 SL. How does this compare with the 50's, or even the SCM 35's with a decent amplifier. Are there decent active alternatives?


Check your PM's.

I auditioned the Benchmark DAC1. Although it was very clear, I found that the music didn't coalesce as I expected. I was auditioning it using the AAA5+ as a transport, and comparing it to the AAA5+'s built-in DAC. In all cases, the player's own DAC seemed more convincing, even though it wasn't as "clean". I also compared it to the dBx DAC (or whatever they're called now). It had some nice qualities as well, but the AAA5+ still beat it.

I've got a Scott Nixon Chibi Saru NOS DAC on order, so I'll let you know whether I think it beats the AAA5+ when it arrives.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Andrew,

Analog Audio (http://www.analogonline.de/bench/bench.htm) , a studio outfitter, is the official German importer and sells the DAC 1 for 998 Euro.

I went ahead and ordered it from Advanced Sounds in sunny Weymouth. Could have saved money buying from Germany but I decided to buy British for once and I wanted it to arrive tomorrow because I have no patience...

This will be attempt number 3 to replace my CDS2/XPS. The first two candidates (Micromega Stage 2 and AAA5+) sadly failed. Haven't worked out what transport to use. Thinking of an old Meridian 506 or used Cyrus. Will start with a cheap DVD player to keep Oedipus happy ;)

Andrew

Hi Andrew,

I didn't think you were one to buy things on spec. I thought you preferred to audition things first.

Maybe at < £1K its worth a gamble, but personally I'd want to hear how it works into my pre-amp, and with my CD [or DVD] transport as a front end.

I guess I also have itchy feet with the whole Naim thing. They used to specialise in High End with the odd foray into entry level (ie the Nait), but these days they want to be total generalists and they don't stand out as much as they used to in the high end any more.

I do wonder, though I haven't tried this yet, whether a really good DVD plus AV amp combo might not in fact be as good as or better than a CDS2/52/500. The Arcam FMJ DVD player, AV controller and multi channel power amp springs to mind.

One little experiment I did the other day makes me wonder whether even the mainstraim Japanese kit isn't also as good as the Naim gear these days.

I took a 4 year old Pioneer high end AV amp (which broke 2 years ago and took me a year to get round to getting repaired) and I plugged it in in place of an Arcam AVR200. It has such good synergy with the Ruark Vita speakers I use for my DVD/TV system, that I also tried out the pre-amp out into the Naim system - its more than a little good, I have to say.

At the risk of wasting a little time over the next few weeks I plan to try out a few different high end Japanese AV set ups (probably with UK speakers) by comparison to the Naim 5 series AV set up and the FMJ's.

At the end of the day, I suspect just buying the DAC and then adding the transport and amp components might be a dead end, given that the DAC capabilities of most high end AV amps is based on the same sort of components as the DAC1 anyway - aren't they ???

How long before eveyone sells off their old naim and heads for Richer sounds :)

Hi Cliff

Well, I bought your 250 on spec, if I remember correctly!

I'm no audio engineer (well, perhaps I am, but not an digital electronics engineer) but I understand that there is more to the implementation of a DAC that just putting a chip into a circuit. There is the design and implementation of the circuit and interfaces themselves, for one thing.

You are right that I am someone who likes to audition and then audition and then audition some more. But I have come to the conclusion that this only works properly in a home demo and the only way to get an extended home demo of a lot of kit is to buy it at a keen price (preferably used) and sell it if it doesn't come up to scratch. Especially true with speakers but I think it applies more generally.

I am very happy with my amp/ speaker components (having sold the 52/Super/250 and SBLs). So I am fiddling with my front end to see if I can sell the last 2 Naim boxes in my rack (CDS2/XPS).

I liked your 500 into NBLs very much. I would be interested to hear you comparing it to some ATC active 20s or 50s one day.

Andrew

Originally posted by pauldixonuk
How long before eveyone sells off their old naim and heads for Richer sounds :)

They way I look at it, I have just moved a little way down the road from Salisbury to Stroud...

OK, with a bit of USA thrown in there.

Andrew

Originally posted by Andrew B.
Hi Cliff

Well, I bought your 250 on spec, if I remember correctly!

I'm sure you'd heard a 250 before ;)

I am very happy with my amp/ speaker components (having sold the 52/Super/250 and SBLs). So I am fiddling with my front end to see if I can sell the last 2 Naim boxes in my rack (CDS2/XPS).

If I recall correctly you bought my old SBLs from the shop where I had traded them in for the NBLs

I liked your 500 into NBLs very much. I would be interested to hear you comparing it to some ATC active 20s or 50s one day.

I liked the ATC 50s that I heard a few years back at the show (I think it was Heathrow but it might have been Bristol). I'd certainly be interested in hearing the active ATC AV setup.

Maybe its time I visited your pace for a demo ...

Hi Cliff

You can email me on arb2004@gmail.com

Happy to host a demo when everything is installed. If I go the benchmark DAC route then I will need to sell off my CDS2/XPS fairly quickly so it is unlikely that I will be able to give you a direct comparison (although you are welcome to bring a CDP of your choice).

You could also bring your NAT01 if you like, since I have a Galaxie on the roof but no tuner at the moment. And I live 3 miles from the most powerful radio transmitter in Southern England so I think you could say that my signal is "adequate". :D

Andrew

Is there a spare input so the dac1 can act as a pre amp / dac for another component, as well as my cd source? If so, what are the input connectors?

Originally posted by pauldixonuk
Is there a spare input so the dac1 can act as a pre amp / dac for another component, as well as my cd source? If so, what are the input connectors?

Its got three digital inputs that you can switch between:

XLR, coax, and toslink (optical)

see full specs here:

http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/digital/dac1/default.asp

oh, and heres a picture of the rear panel too:

http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/digital/dac1/RPI.gif

--
tom

Ok thanks. The reviews seem to suggest this thing is pretty damn good.

However, I have been advised the CA2 or SCA2 are the best preamps for use with active ATC's. Do you think this is correct? Bearing in mind this tip is from an ATC installer / dealer?! Mind you, he hadn't heard of this benchmark dac1, which doesn't help.

You can use the Benchmark in just DAC mode with a fixed output level (ie not with a volume control). This will allow you to plug it into an ATC or other preamp. If you use non-digital sources you will have to get a preamp anyway.

Andrew

Dear all,

Found some information from 6moons.

DAC1 Reveiw(Page1) (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/benchmark/dac1.html)

DAC1 Review(Page2): Modificatoin (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/benchmark/dac1_2.html)

Cheers,

Morris

Can anyone tell me if it would be a worthwhile using this DAC with a Naim CDi as a transport,
The CDi only seem to worth 500 or so quid these days so if it would work it could provide a lot more sonic bang for the buck than moving up the Naim( or other brand ) cd ladder

any ideas welcome
thanks

Morris

That's an audiofool classic - I reckon the reviewer is actually Oedipus's secret alter-ego. Just reading his existing kit list before the review started you KNEW it was all going to end in "cryogenic" cable mods...

:D :D :D :D

I think it's fair to say the natural cut off point in dacs is now £760 (the price dac1 can be bought in the uk). Spending a further 2k on fairy dust seems a tad extreme! Surley if a smdge of extra warmth is required, what not just use 'warm' sounding cables with it! If cables actually sound of anything of course, lol....

Joe Crow

Naim CD players don't have digital outputs, so you can't use them with external DACs.

Andrew

Well, my DAC1 has arrived and I have spent an hour listening to it using my £100 Sony DVD player's optical output and the cheapest digital and analogue cables I could lay my hands on.

It is remarkably good, even compared to the CDS2.

On an A/B comparison the CDS2 seemed SLIGHTLY more organic in nature but the DAC1 was very close indeed and has not yet warmed up/ run in (which may or may not make a difference). There is no harshness to the DAC1, which I had feared from some of the descriptions, especially since I have rather unforgiving ATC active speakers. Detail, scale, delicacy, solidity are all really well done. Acoustic guitars, upright basses and pianos - which so few CD players seem to get properly right - are excellent. Very hard to fault, regardless of price.

I will listen some more and reflect for a while - but it looks as if my CDS2 and XPS are on their way out at last. So in the course of 6 weeks I will have moved from an all Naim system to no Naim at all. Scary.

Andrew

Advice Please

The AAA5+ opened my eyes (ears) to the possibility of great sounds from CD at an affordable price.

I recently bought a Naim DVD5 which I'm running in.

The Arcam is better overall - but the DVD5 does some things better.

I am auditioning a DAC 64 with the DVD5 on Thursday. However this thread has really caught my attention. Has anyone heard both these DACS?

Thanks,

Martin

It’s great to hear another person has engaged the brain and saved himself a fortune in the process!

"£100 Sony DVD player's optical output and the cheapest digital and analogue cables I could lay my hands on."

You haven't heard anything yet!

PMR

I'm bidding on a Meridian 206 on ebay to use as a transport. Whaddya think?

Andrew

Andrew

The Meridian 200 transport sounds better than the 206 (transport/DAC) through a Meridian 203 DAC - normally partnered with the 200, but this cannot be said through the DAC1. If you only need the transport, why not consider a 200/203 combination, and then you’ll gain a 203 DAC for another device? The 203 is a nice, smooth, relaxed sounding DAC that I quite liked.

Now you need to barrow a stunning toslink or coaxial, and eat CDS3's for breakfast.

Not sure that:

(1) there is an audible difference between transports when used with the DAC1; nor that

(2) there is an audible difference between digital interconnects (although there may be between the different methods of transfer).

Time will tell.

Andrew

Andrew transports do make a big difference just try a decent one and you will see I don´t think benchmark have made the first dac in the universe that is not dependent on a good transport this is true in both home hifi and pro audio, digital interconects also make a big difference.

I won the Meridian 206 on eBay tonight which should be a reasonably good transport. What are people's views on optical vs coaxial interfaces? I think I will be able to run both simultaneously into my DAC and compare instantly by toggling the front switch on the DAC - but I'd be interested to know if there is any kind of consensus.

The very detailed Benchmark manual points out the limitations of optical connections at high data rates - saying that they are unreliable at 192kHZ and above - but it doesn't suggest any quality difference generally.

I have no idea what Meridian recommend but they obviously equip their players with both types of connection (plus their own proprietary one on some players, I believe).

Andrew

Hello,

There is another Pro DAC which supports USB interface and can work as external sound card. Someone said it is better than DAC1 but cheaper. Can any German pinkfisher share more information?


Offical Link (http://www.aqvox.de/products.html)

http://www.aqvox.de/webpics/AQVOX-USB-2-DA.jpg

Morris

Andrew

Coaxial is generally better when you are comparing 'like for like' at £40 - £100, but as you spend more, the consensus is that toslink may perform better, but I'm yet to spend this type of money for relatively small improvements.

A cheap and cheerful toslink or coaxial should be avoided at all costs!

The DAC1 is not transport free, though the differences are small, I noticed better musicality and flow with my Meridian over my rather polluted Denon DVD/Amp/Tuner player. In addition, the Pioneer 575 was clearly not as good in this area too.

Hello Andrew go with coaxial it is often the better one but not always on my sony ta-777es av amplifier the toslink is the better one and on a krell cd we had in the shop the toslink was the best option but try them both first.

Coaxial is better on both my DVD players into the Benchmark DAC. I can't explain why in theory but that does seem to be the case in practice. The optical lead sounded slightly "splashy" on the high treble and less resolved in the bass - again, I have no idea why that should be.

Andrew

Andrew,

If you get a chance over the weekend could you post a first chapter of your impressions?

I've demo'd a 2nd Hand Chord DAC 64, which I've loaned and is currently hooked up to my Naim DVD5.

I'm bloody impressed.

Depending on your views I may duck and try a Benchmark - shame I can't do a comparitive demo!

Need to return the DAC on Tuesday - or buy it, which is currently very much on the cards.

M

Mr Underhill

I don't really have the energy to give a full description of the Benchmark at the moment, suffice to say that I bought an AAA5 in the hope of replacing my CDS2 with something acceptable and freeing up some cash. I liked the AAA5 but in the end found that the frequency response was too uneven (recessed in the mid-mids and lower treble, which hollowed out some voices and led to an edginess in the sound) for me to keep it. So I sold it and stayed with the CDS2.

I bought the Benchmark earlier this week.

I sold my CDS2 last night.

My view is that the Benchmark is in another league from the AAA5 in terms of accuracy, neutrality, detail, delicacy and possibly dynamics (latter is harder to assess since I have changed my amp & speakers to something super-dynamic). And this is with a cheap DVD player as a transport.

The Benchmark is a different presentation from the CDS2 - I would say that the CDS2 comes across as more "organic" but this may merely be a little boost in the lower-mids in the CDS2 combined with a little less detail retrieval ability. The Benchmark is more in-your-face but not in the forward way of a CDX nor in the "brittle" way of the early DACs. The CDS2 is still wonderful to listen to and if I hadn't wanted to pocket the £2,000 difference between a new DAC1 + cheap transport and a used CDS2/XPS, I might have stayed with the Naim gear and been quite happy.

Interestingly I have just noticed in the introductory letter from the President of Benchmark Media (which was supplied loose leaf with the manual) that he mentions this:

"Here is what you can expect to hear. The low-midrange may at first seem to be missing something. In fact it is! However, it isn't music that's missing, it's the jitter induced non-harmonically related grunge that you may have gotten used to with other converters. The DAC1's frequency response is absolutely ruler flat."

Not sure whether this is the correct explanation but certainly the final sentence is well proven by the Stereophile tests and others.

Ultimately, it seems to me that the Benchmark does very well at doing what my active ATCs also do: it just presents the truth about what is going on at the source without adding anything or taking anything away. I played a really poorly recorded Stevie Wonder album last night (I think it was Innervisions or Songs in the Key of Life) and the DAC1/ ATC combination didn't say to me "this is a dull recording" but it just took me straight into the heart of the music. Yes, I can hear tape noise on Kind of Blue, but I also hear superbly nuanced real instruments played by real musicians. So it isn't cold or "clinical" but it is very very accurate - objectively, as well as (to me) subjectively.

If you would prefer a warmer sound then I would still recommend the DAC1 and then you can just warm up (ie distort) the signal through the choice of amps and speakers. At least you know you are starting with maximum information retrieval.

Also the DAC1 has not one but two very good heaphone amps built into it.

All in all, quite a bargain.

Andrew

Hmmmmm

This is becoming a very interesting thread (said the DAC64 and Tag DVD32R owner).

Firstly I believe that the transport has an enormous effet on the sound - if I didn't I wouldn't own a tag DVD32R.

I have previously tried the DAC out on

nad 5440 - electrical con- complete rubbish
Linn Genki - electrical con - Much better but limited -very enjoyable though.
Arcam Cd72 - optical con - better again
tag DVD32R - Optical con - Off the planet good

The Chord Dac has connection issues arround earthing and doesn't seem to like electrical connections to double insulated equipment (or so say Chord). I personally think its just a case of losing data through interference on the cable - which can't happen with optical.

Jitter is no prob for the Dac 64 since it buffers and reclocks the data. You just have to get used to the 4 sec time delay between making the transport do something and it actually happening.

I wouldn't be 100% surprised if the DAC 64 could be bettered since none of the rest of the Chord range seems particularly exceptional - it might be thier one and only innovative product, and may suffer form their normal shortcomings in other areas of its design.

For the guy considering a second hand one - if it isn't the latest version then the £150 for the OS upgrade is money well spent.

To Andrew could there be scope for an "I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours" ?

Originally posted by colasblue
To Andrew could there be scope for an "I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours" ?

The Chord DAC64 MKII was very good, but considering the cost, it's probably only worth buying second-hand for around £1200. I found the buffer control a real pain in the ass, because some albums improved, while others suffer a little. Apparently, using the Blue transport alleviates the need to buffer the signal, with the resulting sound match improved, and arguably better than the CDS3 according to my well-hilled local dealer.

Anyway, the Benchmark DAC1 is a more balanced presentation, and offers better overall detail than the DAC64. I would describe the DAC1 as having very little character, where the DAC64 has a house sound of sorts, and its bass response I never felt comfortable with.

Apart from great sonics, the main advantage over the DAC64 is its preamp and headphones!

I recently sold my main Naim system, and I’m currently using a Chrome Bumber NAP140 to power my remaining SBL’s using the DAC1 preamp (RCA – 4 Pin DIN) and the sound is simply superb. Offers far better separation to my Naim 82 preamp/HiCap. Not to mention, it hasn’t cost me £12000 for a 552, but I’d imagine I have similar clarity, though maybe not the designed compatibility.

All said and done, the DAC1 offers stunning value.

Lets have some feedback on what this little dac1 is like acting as a preamp as well!

Maybe you owners could write back your A/B comparisons to what your already using as a pre. (I'm especially interested to see if it matches the CA2 level of quality).

Thanks very much in advance...

Andrew & colasblue,

The DAC 64 is a Mk 1 - being sold for 1,100 pounds.

I'm really enjoying what I'm hearing, through Avondale 42.5, 3 rail PSU, 250 and ART Skibos.

Using my DVD5 as a transport it betters AAA5+ in exactly those areas you mention Andrew - although I prefered it to the straight DVD5.

In fact I demoed the unit at the dealership before borrfowing it for the weekend, and thought it better than their CDX2 - don't know whether they had an external PSU attached.

I'll keep an eye on the thread while I continue listening - the DAC1 would save me 350 pounds - but would be a blind purchase.

...good thread.

Thanks,

Martin

http://www.stereophile.com/digitalsourcereviews/886/

Andrew,

Are you connecting your ATC's directly to the Benchmark DAC via there XLR sockets?
Or are you using a pre-amp?

Regards

Richard

I'm sure the DAC 64 is improved by using maximum buffering all the time - its just that sometimes you don't like what it reveals and prefer a slightly hazier version of the truth.

I can't say I have any complaints about its presentation - it seems more tonlly neutral - and no more forward or laid back than my turntable.

The old LP12 can extract more detail on some analogue recordings - but they really fall into only two minority camps

1) expensive 180gsm audiophile pressings
2) stuff that was really popular and the master tape was probably completely shot before it could be transcribed to digital.

anything DDD its way ahead.

The main thing improved by getting better transports was the level of resolution and focus achievable. Its now on a level with the TT in that regard. The timing improves a bit and the frequency range also seems to extend at the bottom end slightly, but the overal tonal balance is fairly constant.

Mr Underhill I'd say £1100 is probably too much for a MK1 unless its had the OS upgrade - I've seen 2 month old ones sell for only slightly more. Also since I've already had to claim on my 5 year transferable warranty I'd recommend buying as new as poss - just in case my experience is typical.

I've investigated the Chord Blu. I got two separate dems of it at the Bristol show in different systems - and it didn't make the eyes sparkle at all. I also canvassed the opinion of the dealer who originally started the trend of using Tag/Cord on the front of Naim systems and he didn't recommend it over the Tag (but did try to get me interested in a Naim 500).

The blu supposedly upsamples the digital info and transmits it to the DAC as two single streams of 192 Khz 24 bit, but I can't really see why that would generate any better conversion than the normal 44.1 Khz 16 bit - if the info isn't there in the first place I cant see how you can "invent" it.

They do connect electrically which presumably must imply that at least some of the sinal from transport to DAC is corrupted. There appears to be no dual 192 Khz 24 bit optical option (nor any plans to introduce one).

The Tag transoprt is supposedly accurate to a few parts per million, so provided all the info gets to the DAC and the jitter is eliminated that ought to be about as good as you can get.

The main problem with CD still appears to be building a decent transport which recovers all the info correctly - and then getting that info to the DAC without losing some

The actual sonic charicteristic of the DAC is another matter again, and the Chord's design is completely unique.

Hi Andrew

Just reading the 2nd to last page, it springs to mind that the main difference between a good transport and a bad one is in the work being performed by the DAC itself. The less the DAC has to do to correct the timing errors from the source the better.

Also, I presume that better transports have a better chance with slighly out of spec disks. The fact that the CDS2 often doesn't play out of book-spec CDs without reshaping the Puck is quite annoying.

Cheers
Cliff

Can't be bothered to match my responses to questioners - but here are the answers!

1. I am using my DAC1 as a DAC only at the moment and haven't tried it as a preamp - but I will give it a go this evening since people are curious. It is currently running into my CA2, which I rate very highly.

2. I have never heard a Chord DAC64 but I'd be happy to host a little shoot-out if Colasblue and others would like a listen. If we wait a week or two then my new ATC50s will have arrived and my wife will have forgiven me sufficiently to allow visitors again. We could also have a play with the DVD5 and/or TAG DVD player running into my home cinema projector (I'll provide a cheap Sony prog scan DVD player with some expensive component video leads and a 7ft screen to test it on). E-mail me on arb2004@gmail.com if you are in the vicinity of North Kent and are interested. Initial guest list might be Nick (aka Colas), Cliff and Paul Dixon. My living room isn't so large but I could probably accomodate at least one more. Alternatively I could travel with the DAC1 (2kg) but not with the ATC 50s (100kg!).

3. I haven't done much experimentation with transports but the DAC1 claims to be uniquely immune to problems with poor (ie jittery) transports. When my Meridian 206 arrives I will do a comparison with my DVD players.

4. Cliff, I always thought of the CDS2 as being a bit like a thoroughbred racehorse - capable of greatness but finicky and a bit temperamental (on those out-of-spec CDs). It's quite nice not to have to think about things like compressed puck feet!

Andrew

Andrew, generous of you to hold a demo. I'm looking forward to the dac1 / atc50 combo. I bet that 7ft movie experience will become a massive distraction however!

Interesting thread.
I googled this photo:

the only concern I have about the DAC 1--- PRaT.

I am considering getting a DAC myself just to throw in the mix from time to time with my Rega planet 2000.

I have no doubt the resolution and soundstaging and all on the DAC 1 are world-class. That is fact.

But those of you who have put this thing up against a CDX2 or a CDS2 (both of which I have owned), what say ye of the fun-factor?

Can it groove? Or is it that kind of boring/everything is perfect/look at the pretty picture/the bassist is coming from 4.5 feet to the right of center kind of thing?

David

PS-- can anyone comment on this DAC against one of those cheap Shigaraki clone Dacs?

This may be the worlds most stupid question.....but

This DAC has 3 inputs
I only use 2 sources - CD player and Rega P3
Can I do Analog to Digital from the turntable into the Benchmark DAC?

Then I could do away with a pre-amp, headphone amp and its PSU and just have CD player and turntable into DAC and onto active ATC speakers.

Any one tried this?

I think you'll find the P3's a bit analogue, hence you would need an analogue phono stage and/or pre amp between it and the power amp. Presumably a DAC will only have digital inputs. (I could be wrong on this but I virtualy guarantee it doesn't have phono stage).

I know the P3 is analog but the Benchmark only works in digital hence the ADC as opposed to DAC like:-

Wadia ADC (http://www.wadia.com/products/w130and150/130_150_home.htm)

and I currentlyhave a Dynavector P75 phono pre-amp

So I am looking at:-

P3 -> ADC -> DAC -> Active speakers

Originally posted by onlythat
the only concern I have about the DAC 1--- PRaT.

I know it's hard for people to accept, but you hear what is on the recording, rather than an eq that highlights PRaT by limiting depth and width to the sound. If the recording grooves, the DAC1 grooves, if the recording doesn't, than DAC1 doesn't. Simple!

But those of you who have put this thing up against a CDX2 or a CDS2.
The CDX2 struggled to beat my optimised Meridian 206. The DAC1 leaves my Meridian sounding 50 years old. No comparison!

Originally posted by rgame666
This DAC has 3 inputs I only use 2 sources - CD player and Rega P3Can I do Analog to Digital from the turntable into the Benchmark DAC?Then I could do away with a pre-amp, headphone amp and its PSU and just have CD player and turntable into DAC and onto active ATC speakers.
Any one tried this?.
No.

Since selling my preamp, I've been wondering about how to support my vinyl. I'm thinking of plugging the RCA's into the computer (line in) and then play (line out) through the computers optical connection to the DAC1. In all honesty, I think vinyl should be heard through a preamp and kept as analogue - unique.

Originally posted by onlythat
Can it groove? Or is it that kind of boring/everything is perfect/look at the pretty picture/the bassist is coming from 4.5 feet to the right of center kind of thing?
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I compared a DAC1 against the AAA5+'s internal DAC. Although the DAC1 presented less distortion, smoother frequency response, etc., the music did not come together in a way that I expect. Don't get me wrong! It wasn't "sleepy", like you hear from much round earth gear, but it wasn't groovy either.

In sharp contrast, the AAA5+ presented the music as a unified whole, even though it didn't do some of the sonics quite as well. That's why I didn't buy a DAC1.

Perhaps the extra stuff that the DAC1 was presenting distracted me from the music. I don't know, but I know that I didn't like the ultimate result.

PS-- can anyone comment on this DAC against one of those cheap Shigaraki clone Dacs?
I've got a Scott Nixon Chibi Saru on order, so once it arrives, I'll let you know whether it betters the AAA5+.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

If you like the Naim cd players try something from Wadia same grove and prat and also the solid very very deep bass you also get some other more round earth things like soundstage, depth and 3-D so try a Wadia it does not sound exactly like a naim but it does grove so much my foot always starts tapping. It´s the same thing with all the Wadia cd´s and dac´s.

I don't think the DAC1 is groovy or ungroovy, to be honest. Stevie Wonder and Miles Davis groove on it, Madonna and Busted don't. It is characterless in the best possible sense.

As I said before, if you want some harmonious valve sound then put that into the signal path. But you might as well start with the recorded truth.

Using ATCs you also have the unvarnished truth at the other end of the system which I can understand might be a bit much for some people. I find it insightful and gratifying, especially on older recordings (The Jam are currently "Going Underground" in the background).

I like the DAC1 so much I am thinking of buying another one for my bedroom midi-system...

I'm also going to take one to the next gig I engineer to see if I can hear the difference on a really big set of speakers (one of the mixing desks I use is digital so has SPDIF outs)!

Andrew

Originally posted by Andrew B.
I don't think the DAC1 is groovy or ungroovy, to be honest. Stevie Wonder and Miles Davis groove on it, Madonna and Busted don't. It is characterless in the best possible sense.
All I know is that I consistently preferred the AAA5+'s internal DAC to the external DAC1, with the music always sounding more "together". As to "charcterless", that claim cannot be made objectively, as there is no benchmark ;) against which to compare.

As for Madonna, I don't listen to her often, but some of her stuff is most definitely groovy.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

I do have a bit of a benchmark (ho hum) - for example, I have an album that I personally recorded, mixed (on Pro Tools) and mastered to CD. It is of a band I regularly mix for so I know their sounds pretty well.

The DAC1 sounds very much closer to neutral on that CD than the AAA5+ or even CDS2.

But "chacun a son gout" as they say.

Andrew

PS I quite like "Ray of Light" so I was probably mean to "diss" Madonna

PPS I briefly tried the DAC1 as a preamp and didn't think it was up to the standard of the CA2 - kind of like a 102 vs the CA2's 82/Super. But I'll do some longer tests.

Andrew

It's great to hear your comments.

"DAC1 as a preamp and didn't think it was up to the standard of the CA2”

If you compare the difference between your calibrated and variable (preamp) setting on your DAC1 via your CA2, you will probably hear a slight decrease in sound quality, some added distortion and maybe a softening/warming of the sound.

However, this is all the DAC1 can ever lose! IMO, this makes it the best possible preamp available? The only problem now would be the DAC1's compatibility to the power amp/speakers, which is probably why the CA2 wins overall as it's a better match for your ATC's.

Bugger. Looks like I'll need to add another box - the CA2. Was hoping for an ultra low box count.

Is the CA2 half width, or bigger?

PMR, I'm afraid I don't really understand your comments. I guess if I ran my (active) speakers using the output at calibrated rather than variable then it would be very clean - but VERY loud! Using the variable output intoduces some kind of circuitry that is less transparent than the attenuation provided by the CA2. The DAC1 should be pretty compatible with the active ATCs since it has balanced XLR outputs, which is what the ATCs are looking for.

Paul, the CA2 looks like it should be half width but is actually a kind of bloated two-thirds width, sadly. I'd like to listen to it versus the DAC1's variable output some more before rejecting the latter. But in my case I need the pre-amp for an AV signal and a tape signal. In terms of box count, I am still winning against a CDS2/XPS and a 52/Super. The DAC1 is so small it is hardly noticeable (at least when you have taped over the incredibly bright LEDs on the front).

A

Sorry, it wasn't very easy to say.

If you use the DAC1's varible setting using the CA2 as preamp, and compare this to the DAC1's calibrated setting (fixed output level) using the CA2 as preamp, you can then assess the amount of sonic loss using the DAC1 as a preamp only.

PMR - I think I now understand. What I would need to do is to turn the variable level up to the same volume as the calibrated output, while using the CA2 in the signal path both times. I'll give it a try when I have time.

Happy Easter!

Andrew

Originally posted by Andrew B.
I do have a bit of a benchmark (ho hum) - for example, I have an album that I personally recorded, mixed (on Pro Tools) and mastered to CD. It is of a band I regularly mix for so I know their sounds pretty well.

The DAC1 sounds very much closer to neutral on that CD than the AAA5+ or even CDS2.
I'll grant that it's more of a benchmark than most people would have. However, there are a number of issues that I still have with it:

I don't have much faith on "audio memory". That is, I don't really believe people can remember how something sounds one day, and then accurately compare that internal memory to a later performance. There are too many factors impacting one's perception. Sure, gross differences could be recognized, but the smaller nuances that we usually debate here are washed away by the passage of time.
When recording something acoustic, you know what it sounds like. However, amplified instruments vary much more from performance to performance. Therefore, your benchmark is inconsistent (unless the band you mentioned is acoustic).
I find recording engineers often get wrapped up in the technical aspects of the sound, which is not necessarily the same thing that I'm noticing. When I was auditioning the DAC1, it was in a mastering studio, which was extremely revealing. All levels were matched, etc. As I mentioned, the AAA5+ sounded more cohesive than the DAC1, but the engineer chalked it up to the AAA5+ having a bit more bass. Perhaps he was right, but the end result was my consistent preference for what I heard from the AAA5+. (It's unfortunate that the AAA5+ has the problem with edginess that it does. Otherwise, I could easily use it to replace my CDS2.)
I've done much recording and engineering myself, and currently have a small project studio in my home, so I know where you're coming from. There is a strange but pervasive dichotomy between the worlds of recording and playback, and it's not easily reconciled.

Ultimately, it comes down to personal preference. I'm glad that you're enjoying the DAC1, even though I didn't like it. After the many comments, I'm strongly considering asking the guy here whether I could try one at home, just to verify my perceptions. (I'm always open to the possibility that I was wrong.) I won't do that, though, until I get the Scott Nixon Chibi Saru, so that I can do a direct comparison. It will be a shoot-out between the CDS2, AAA5+ (as transport+DAC, plus as transport-only), Meridian 200 transport, Meridian 263 delta-sigma DAC, Scott Nixon Chibi Saru DAC, and Benchmark DAC1. It should be an interesting comparison.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

I'm sure your right - you cant remember exactly how something sounds over time to compare slight variations accurately on a technical level.

However I think it's easy to remember how it made you feel / react to the music, which is more important IMO.

Originally posted by pauldixonuk
However I think it's easy to remember how it made you feel / react to the music, which is more important IMO.
Yes, although even that can be colored by varying circumstances and fading memory.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

I bought a DAC1 in Aug last year and promptly sold it on in Sep.
Lots of round earth qualities but didn't do it for me emotionally or speed wise.

I replaced the Benchmark with a nonos battery powered dac. In my rig, this fleshed out the mids and upper bass better at the expense of high freq detail and spaciousness.

True, the groove is in the performance but aren't we here at pfm because we do enjoy the editorialising that flat earth gear do?

Mike

I think there is a lot of sense in what you say. It is partly a matter of taste as well as what the rest of your hi-fi setup does to the sound.

I also agree that audio memories are unreliable but on the other hand there is an ability to train the ear in the same way as you can train other senses. For example, more experienced live sound engineers can very accurately tell you whether that feedback frequency that is just starting to ring is at 1kHz or 1.2kHz, in the same way that musicians with good pitch can tell you what note they are hearing. And, to extend the example, if you have enough practice you can tell whether certain frequencies are being consistently overemphasised or underemphasised by a specific setup, even if only by 2 to 3dB. This isn't relying on specific memory so much as relying on training.

A

Originally posted by Andrew B.
I think there is a lot of sense in what you say. It is partly a matter of taste as well as what the rest of your hi-fi setup does to the sound.
Yes, which is why I'm considering trying it again at my own place. As I mentioned, I did the audition at a mastering studio, which was probably one of the most revealing systems that I've ever heard. It made the differences between the various sources dead simple to distinguish, making my determination quite straightforward.

I also agree that audio memories are unreliable but on the other hand there is an ability to train the ear in the same way as you can train other senses.
Absolutely, which is why I trust some people's reports more than others.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Andrew,

As I emailed you - I've bought a DAC1 that arrived today.

My local dealer kindly threw together a 1m piece of coax with a BNC and phono and I was off and running, and he did it gratis!

Initial thoughts - wow!

Now, please don't get me wrong. I don't think a DAC can make a night or day difference, but it can focus what's there.

To warm it up I put on a DVD of Phil Collins Live in Paris. This has a dreadful 5.0 track and a LPCM one.

This sounds really good through the DVD5 stereo outputs, and was better through the Chord DAC 64, but 4 sec. behind the picture.

Through the DAC1 I could hear instruments that just got lost through either the DVD5 or DVD5+Chord, and there is PRAT.

SO all good news then? Well, no. There was a slight edge to some of the vocals - such as Phil on high notes and some Eleanor McEvoy I put on.

I had done a demo of the NAIM DC1 a couple of weeks ago, and ended up by comparing it to the Chord CODAC. In my AV system I felt they sounded different, but not necc. better; but the CODAC had a 'warmer' sound.

So I duly swopped the 1m freeby for the CODAC, nasty edge (exageration here) went. Bass also got somewhat less controlled.

Currently working my way through my Opera DVDs - with a PCM soundtrack. Why? PRAT and a SOUNDSTAGE!

Now for rock music I don't care whether things are positioned particularly - for classicial music it definitely helps - me at least.

Listened to a version of Mozarts Requiem, not only was the music really good the parts of the choir where there in my living room, with the orchestra in front.

...and rock? Sounds good to me.

Think I'll revisit digital coax cables - they make a difference with this DAC. Any recommendations? I will revisit the DC1 and Chord Prodac.

Andrew, sorry I don't think I'll need to take up your offer as it will almost certainly be staying.

Martin

Martin

Glad you are enjoying it - I thought you would!

I'm no interconnect expert, I'm afraid. The ones I'm using at the moment were made from Canare cable by Mark Grant from the AV forums.

They seem to be pretty good.

Andrew

Thanks Andrew,

How are you getting on with the Meridian transport?

M

There's nothing wrong with the Meridian as a transport. But I have found the Benchmark to be very transport-agnostic. Try yours with the worst DVD player in the house and report back (you may need an optical lead to do that though).

The Meridian 206 that I bought has a surprisingly good sound using its own DAC - it is slightly warm and lush like my old Micromega but more detailed than the French player (as well as being much better built). Really pleasing and musical to listen to, without being the last word in information retrieval. I was quite surprised, having chosen a CDX over a 508.24 in 1999 when I was shopping for fancy CD players. The 508 was dull but detailed... quite different. I would say the 206 is a bargain as a stand-alone player.

Andrew

Originally posted by Andrew B.
[B]But I have found the Benchmark to be very transport-agnostic. Try yours with the worst DVD player in the house and report back I stuck one into every CDP in a local shop Cairn,Cambridge,Cary,etc and couldn't hear any difference. Picked up a cheap $100 universal SACD/DVD/DVD-A on the way home to compare with my Arcam and again no difference.

I kept the DAC1, and sold the Arcam. It's also immune to expensive power cords I've found. More savings :)

Then found this related:
The below lifted from another site:

"The audio path is well isolated from the power supply rails, and the power supply rails are bypassed to their own ground system (not to the audio ground reference). The DAC1 will run just fine with lots of ripple and noise on the power supply rails. The regulators (as generic as they are) are orders of magnitude better than they need to be. The DAC1 can actually run with several volts of ripple on the +/- 18 volt rails (we have run this test in the lab) without any measureable change in performance. The +5V and 3.3V regulators are the most critical. Excessive noise on the 5 and 3.3 volt rails can cause jitter. The filter caps on these rails are oversized, and there is no measurable jitter due to noise on these rails. Again, by injecting noise onto these rails, we know what the margins are, and we know that we will not gain anything by changing the regulators.

This is also why the DAC1 will not benifit from high tech AC line cords and/or AC line filters.

Here is one way to domonstrate this: The DAC1 is designed to operate with AC line voltages as low as 90 VAC. Below 90 VAC the +/- 18 volt regulators will drop out, and AC ripple will increase rapidly as the input voltage is decreased further. At about 80 VAC the DAC1 will gracefully shut itself down by applying each of three digital mute circuits. Just above 80 VAC the DAC1 will opearate normally with no detectable hum or distortion in spite of the fact that it is operating with the +/- 18 V regulators in a drop-out condition. At 80 VAC there is about 3 Vpp AC ripple on the +/- 18 V rails. The only negative impact on performance is that the ripple reduces the headroom of the analog outputs. Normally the DAC1 can deliver +29 dBu to the XLR outputs. When the power supply is out of regulation, the maximum output level is reduced to about +27 dBu."
John Siau
Director of Engineering

Eyeteeth,

Interesting..I'll change the powerlead tomorrow and see if it makes any difference.

I have found in my setup the digital coax from transport to DAC1 DOES make a lot of difference.

Over the last couple of days I have done a comparison between:

Naim DC1 (yep, I borrowed it again...thank s Paul);
Chord Prodac;
QED Quenex 25 pounds;
QED Quenex 50 pounds.

To my ears the order was:

1st - Chord Prodac;
2nd (tied) Naim & 25 pound QED;
3rd 50 pound QED.

The 50 pound QED presented more detail than any of the other cables - but a digital edge.

The 25 QED had a better balance, but less detail.

The Prodac has a nice balance between detail and no digital edge - in mt system.

I REALLY want to like the NAIM. Maybe it takes a lot of buring in - but I did soak it for three days last week. IF this is the case I think NAIM ought to run it in prior to being bought......but maybe it's just me.

M

Originally posted by Mr Underhill
Eyeteeth,

I have found in my setup the digital coax from transport to DAC1 DOES make a lot of difference. I didn't do much cable comparison although an optical toslink had a turn and wasn't as good. And I must confess to being quick to turn my back upon exhaustive comparisons once I've decided to keep a piece.
Thankfully equipment listening has diminished greatly of late and stepped aside to music. :)

I picked up a benchmark DAC-1 on friday for the second system. I have to say that right out of the box it sounds excellent, using my Pioneer DVD player as a transport. Significantly better than the CD5 and the Sony ES MD deck I had been using as a DAC. From some of the reviews I was expecting a bright, bass-light sound with a treble emphasis, but in fact it sounds very balanced, smooth, quiet, and with a satisfying sense of instrumental weight and tonal colour.

The headphone output is pretty awful, however, and it sounds much better using my Meier Prehead headphone amp/preamp.

I haven't yet compared it to the CDS2 in the main system, but so far I am favourably impressed, especially given its price.

Ross

Originally posted by RossB
but so far I am favourably impressed, especially given its price. That's the part that tickles me. Had the internals been handed to an audiophile company, they'd have stuck them in a stylish brushed aluminum box four times the size and four times the price at least. :D
PRaT? It has me think the recording is partially responsible for this. The DAC1 seems true to the material. It's entertaining for me and I do forget about the equipment more now.

It's size is also rather appealing. My 'system' (ha!) will consist of this and an equally miniscule cyrus transport. Not much of a stack! I guess the speakers sound will make up for it's lack of visual authority, lol.

I think you'll find that the ATC 50s have plenty of that!

Andrew

They will have in my lounge :O

Originally posted by Andrew B.
I think you'll find that the ATC 50s have plenty of that! Partial to the 150s myself for not that much extra dough, (for one who can afford the 50s).

The 50's will sound better in my space. For extra low end volume (if required) a sub will offer more control. I don't want the front's looking too large either. Obviously this route will cost more than 150's, but I would prefer it that way.

To judge from the 50s, you will need a very large room and a very forgiving wife/partner to accomodate the 150s properly, since even the 50s need to be a couple of feet out from the wall.

Mine haven't finished running in yet - only about 50 hours on the clock now. The 40 hour mark was a bit of a turning point in terms of integration of the drivers and I found it made the bass tighter, which allowed me to move them back slightly towards the wall without getting a boom.

They are very nice indeed now.

Andrew

There is a new and very "round earth" review of the DAC1 by Dick Olsher here:

Enjoy the Music DAC1 review (http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0405/benchmarkdac1.htm)

The description of its sound quality is very fair, in my experience.

Andrew

If anyone is interested in my impressions of the DAC1 versus the Chord DAC64, I have posted them is this thread:

here (http://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=115632#post115632)

Andrew,

Thanks for that. It was the view I came away with...but that was based on memory - having returned the 64 a week previously.

That the DAC1 holds it's own against the Chord indicates what a huge bargain this piece of kit is.....certainly hasn't slowed down my CD buying!

For the record I didn't buy the prodac in the end, but a stereovox HDXV for seventy pounds - ANOTHER piece of US bargain hifi.

M

I hooked up the Dac1 I've bought used from a forum member (thanks, Steve!) last night.

All the good things that Andrew B. and others have been saying about this DAC are true. It really is a great piece of kit.

The term bargain doesn't quite cover it. I preffer it to a £5.5k levinson 390s. It would be highly rude not to own a dac1.

The DAC1 also has two pretty good headphone amps built into it. I was mixing something the other night and had to swap from using the ATC50s to my HD600 headphones and I was really impressed with the quality.

Better than my Rega EAR or my Total Airhead, I think.

What a bargain!

Andrew

Has anyone tried using the DAC1 (or any dac for that matter) straight into a Naim power amp ? I have a NAP250-2 which has the XLR input and wondered if this was possible. Presumably some kind of Y cable would be needed from the outputs of the DAC1.

Colin

Yes, I've used the DAC1 straight into a 250.

It was v.good, but not as good as my Avondaled 42.5.

The cable I used was a special made up by Chord, 2 phono into XLR.

M

I don't think that the preamp section of the DAC1 is up to the standard of a good separate preamp, although the headphone amps are pretty good. I use mine with a separate (valve) preamp.

Andrew

Hi Andrew

The Benchmark arrived on Tuesday...the 4m bnc/phono cable arrived on Friday and the fun should have started last night, if only I'd had a fully working amp!

The bad news....your pal is going to have to save up a bit more and buy one..he's not having mine..sorry!

The better news...I connected it up tonight in to my right channel only 42.5/110 and immediately realised on playing one of my favourite CD's (Very Greasy-David Lindley) through the Arcs (Nap110-surely it don't work?)....that this could be really good when I get another Amp that supplies me with a stereo signal.

The really good news.....I connected up my Akg wireless headphones through the Benchmark...played David Lindley again, one word?.....thought about "unreal" "superb" sorry can't do it in one word so three will have to do ......."really really good"....best cd sound I've heard actually....can't be more specific.

I've still got the £2000 burning a hole...I've spent all of last week weighing up the options talking to people, taking on board their advice, I may go the "Densen " way, not sure. I quite fancied the Sugden integrateds as suggested by Chris in the Canaries but I've spoken to 4 different people who've suggested that maybe the Arcs won't be too happy.

I just can't get away from thinking that Dynavector may be the way to go for me....so come on Alex s ?/ Goose get you heads together sort me out.....make an old Rams fan happy!

Regards,

Dave

Andrew,

I found the DAC1 as a pre to be better than the AV2 & behind the Avondaled 42.5 with three rail psu.

Out of interest what pre are you using?

M

Hi Dave - glad to hear you like the DAC1.

M, I compared it to an ATC CA2 and I thought the CA2 added delicacy and "space" versus using the DAC1 as a preamp. ALthough there was more bass with the DAC1 as a pre (not sure whether it was better bass though).

I am now using an EAR864 valve preamp which is absolutely mind-blowingly marvellous. Don't get me started on the subject...


Andrew

I use a RCA to 4-PIN Din Chord Cobra cable, and this works extremely well, but be sure to to change the DAC1 output to variable. Which brings me onto its preamp?

I personally noticed with my 82/Hicap, that this was probably preferable to the DAC1 preamp with a 140 or 250 previously owned. But it became apparent that the 82/Hi was exaggerating the sound. Either that, or alternatively, the 140 was handling the signal better from the 82. Now is this a failure of the DAC1 or a failure of the amp? It was obvious that the DAC1 produced better separation, clarity and dynamics directly connected to the 140, but the 82/Hi offered better bloom and integration. I personally suspected that the Naim pre and power are designed to work closely together, sharing the same sonic signature/expected eq.

If you compare the variable and calibrated output from the DAC1, it is fairly hard to tell them apart, therefore the DAC1 preamp is extremely good. So maybe the benefits we are hearing using a preamp are subjective, exaggerated, or more likely a better match.

What kind of sources do you all use to get those great results from the DAC1? Cheap Cyberhome, Tevion, Tesco DVDPlayers or maybe cheap CDPlayers or do you use Arcam DVDPs etc?

You can pretty much use anything, but a Meridian 200 transport would be a good start.

Like the site! Did you use Flash or something similar?

I preferred the DAC1 acting as a preamp in Andrew's system, compared to the bass light yet controlled ca2. However a valve pre is on another level for that fun 'live' sound. I was hoping to just use the benchmark for pre duties as well, mostly to save space. That idea has firmly been booted out the door now. My next planned virtual system keeps growing, much to my girlfriends dismay :D

Hi,
Thanks. I used Flash. Fast and easy to set up if you have basic Java knowledge :)

Hi Paul, I totally agree with your experiences.

Though I liked and could see the potential in setting-up the ATC 50's to perfection, I'm going to listen to the Living Voice OBX-R2's with some nice valves, Ear, Border Patrol etc., and hopefully have a better idea of where to spend the money.

HT

Never found the time to master Flash, or even glimse at it, but Dreamweaver, Fireworks I know reasonable well. I guess your video libruary is probably best in HTML, but maybe coming away from Frames would be a good idea?

Regards Peter

So who uses which source? And how much should you realistically spend on it?

@PMR: The Movie Library in the html version is not created by the user. I use a program called DVDProfiler in which you simply enter the movie name or straight away the barcode number (with barcode scanner or by hand) and it then gets all the information about the title. The online collection is just´a free gimmick the program offers you and is stored on the manufacturers website and cannot be altered...except for the color scheme.

A Meridian 200 would be about £100-150 pounds for one in good/excellent condition, and supports coaxial and optical out.

Wouldn't mind finding a good music catalogue / export HTML program if you know one?

www.collectorz.com . MusicCollector is a nice program. I haven't seen anything as good for music as DVDProfiler, but MusicCollector is OK.

PMR

My 250-2 has a single XLR input, so I would need some kind of twin XLR coming from the XLR balanced outputs of the DAC1 to a single XLR at the 250 end, or twin RCA to XLR, if such a cable exists. It's just something I'd like to experiment with to see which way I prefer it. I need to keep my preamp anyhow for my LP12.

Colin

HT-Naimee,

I use a DVD5 as a transport - although many people say the DAC1 is transport agnostic, but I use the DVD5 for picture & DVDA as well.


Andrew,

Please go on about valve pre-amps in as much nauseating detail as possible!


M

You use a DVD5 and don't use the internal decoder?

HT-Naimee,

If you go onto the Naim site in their Home Theatre section they have a thread on the CD playing ability of the DVD5 to which i've made some contributions.

In summary:

I preferred the AAA5+ to the DVD5, but the DVD5 did certain things better on the CD front.

I listened to the DVD5 + Chord DAC64 which I thought gave the best of both.

Then listened to the DVD5 + DAC1 which I thought in the same league - for less money! .....and maybe a bit better.

M

M

You're welcome to drive a few junctions around the M25 and come over here to listen for yourself - this Tuesday night would suit me since Mrs B. is out at a charity meeting.

But I'll have a go at a description. Valve strengths have traditionally been seen as mid-range ones. My EAR864 does indeed have gorgeous textures and smooth detail in the mid-range (even more so since I changed the valves last night) - the only solid state pre I've owned or heard that comes close is the mighty Naim 52 but even that is not up there with the 864. The two problem areas with valve pres seem to be the extreme high frequencies, which some roll off too much, and the bass which can be too full and bloomy. These are both areas I care about a great deal, especially the bass.

The 864 has a treble which extends at least as far as I can hear without any appreciable roll-off, and a bass which has great grip and solidity without any kind of fatness or sluggishness. It also has a better soundstage than the 52 ever had, which is a nice extra although I find that if I start thinking too much about that sort of thing I forget to enjoy the music.

And it is REALLY REALLY good on voices. Everyone seems to be singing at a higher emotional pitch, caring more about each syllable - whether they are Alanis Morrissette or Stevie Wonder or Joni Mitchell or whoever. Even Phil Collins might sound soulful on it (but I don't intend to find out anytime soon).

More later, when I've listened to something dirty on it.

A

Are you now using the DAC1, Ear 864 and ATC 50's?

I'm guessing the Ear 864 and appropriate Ear power amp would sound mighty good through LV OBX-R2's, but I can't help wondering whether the ATC's are sounding more sweat and emotionally detailed, and possibly offering some of the OBX's known qualities?

Originally posted by PMR
Are you now using the DAC1, Ear 864 and ATC 50's?


Yes.

Full signal chain is:

Meridian 206 (used as transport) -- Coaxial out -> Canare cable -> DAC1 (no mods)-- Canare phono to phono cables -> EAR864 (uprated valves)-- balanced outs-- Van Damme Cable--> ATC SCM50ASL (factory stands)

Andrew

Andrew, what valves did you get?

I followed the advice of that nice man Derek at Watford Valves. I told him I wanted two of each type (ECC82 and ECC83) to compare in the line stage (which just takes 2 valves) and that cost was no object - safer to say that in a valve shop than a hifi shop!

He sent me:


ECC82 replacements:
RT 12AU7 (£12) and Siemens NOS E82CC (£25)

ECC83 replacements:

Philips 12AX7 (£12) and Tesla NOS E83CC (£20)

Prices are all excluding VAT and delivery.

I haven't explored all of the combinations by any means (there are 9 possibilities if you include the standard valves). I have just swapped the standard ones for the two pricier valves. I am going to run these for a few days and then do some more experimentation. First impressions were that the new valves gave a slightly airier and more delicate tone in the mid range and higher frequencies, without losing the good qualities in the bass.

Andrew

I have a set of the RT 12AU7s from Derek, and despite their reputation can't hear much difference between them and the Golden Dragons previously installed. I'm fast concluding that valve differences in preamps are very subtle; power amps are different, I'm sure.

BTW ECC82s and 83s seem interchangeable in most designs. Do you (or anyone else) happen to know if that applies to all designs? 83s are supposed to sound cleaner.

I've been waiting a week for hifi world to post my back March issue, containing the benchmarkdac review. Low and behold April's issue arrives. What is wrong with these drooling retards?!:mad:

Hi Paul,

Calm down lad, it's only a Hi-Fi Review....send me your address and I'll copy it for you, unless you want the whole magazine that is!

Cheers,

Dave

Sorry - it's been a long frustrating monday! In fact it turns out there's a nice little article inside about atc, so I feel better now:)

Thanks for the offer, but I'll order another. Lets hope I don't get February.

ok then no problem.

I broke down and bought a Benchmark DAC1. It's better than the Squeezebox2's internal DAC, although not by a huge amount. The ambience is a somewhat better, with a bit more bloom. Essentially, it sounds "sweeter". I'm really susprised at how good the SB2 sounds all by itself! Considering the SB2 costs only $250, I'm not sure whether the Benchmark's $1000 price tag is justified. That's something you would have to decide yourself.

BTW, the Benchmark is definitely better than the Scott Nixon Chibi Saru NOS DAC (powered by a basic LM317T regulator circuit). I'm going to continue doing work on the power supply to see if I can squeeze a bit more out of it, but I don't expect it to surpass the Benchmark. We'll see.

So far I've auditioned it in my office system (102/SNAPS2/140/RoydMerlin). I'll eventually get it downstairs into my main setup, to find out how it stacks up against the mighty CDS2.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

It will repay being used in a better system. You'll remember that I sold my CDS2 after getting the Benchmark - but I don't think that was an "obvious" move. It did raise quite a bit of cash though.

Looking forward to reading how you get on.

Andrew

I'm also considering adding DAC1 to my SB2. I'd agree that the SB2 has a surprisingly good sound for the price. Very good, even! However, my CD5>Hi Cap definitely has the edge...as it bloody well should do, for 10x the price! The naim combo has a bit more sparkle & excitement, to my ears, the SB2 being just a little soft & dull by comparison. It's close, but there's enough of a difference to make me wonder what an external DAC could do. Ultimately, I'd like my PC to become my main source, ditch the CD5>Hi and get a DVD as transport for occasional silver disc duties.


Rich.

Current system: PC>SB2+CD5>Hi>102>Hi>250>Shahinian Compasses

However, my CD5>Hi Cap definitely has the edge...as it bloody well should do, for 10x the price! The DAC1 sounds much better than my CD5/Hicap, which sounds grainy and colourless in comparison. In fact, after a month or so of running in, the DAC1 produces some of the best digital sound I've ever heard.

Ross

I echo Mike's comments above. I received my Benchmark DAC1 today and I have to say I was expecting more, given the rave reviews and comments on this forum and others. I was underwhelmed when I plugged it in. It just shows how good the internal DAC in the SB2 really is. However, I guess it takes time to burn in like any other device, so I'll give it some time and keep an open mind.

As someone else commented the SB2 does tend toward a softness, which the DAC1 seems to eradicate. I'm sure the DAC1 is really good but initially I was bummed until I realized that the SB2 is actually a lot better than I thought. I'd like to try the DAC1 into my Naim 250-2 but I'm having an issue sourcing a suitable cable. I only have a 102/Napsc/Hi-Cap so not the most resolving preamp around, however I think Mike Hanson has a 52, if I remember ?


Colin

To quote Mike Hanson from another thread:

The Benchmark DAC1 is certainly not "ruthless" in any way. In fact, that's probably my primary complaint regarding it: it gives me all the information, but doesn't doesn't seem to "boogie" as much as I want/expect. However, I've not compared it to my CDS2.

Last night I played my Dac1 and boogie wasn't its forte alright. The bass was mushy and indistinct. Bass pitch and timing were rather poorer than on the CD player I used a s a transport, a lowly harman/kardon HD 730. Strangely, that was not the case at all when I first fired up the Dac.

The midrange and treble were better than through the player's internal dac, but not by as large a margin as at first.

I wonder what the cause was. Can the Dac1 be susceptible to mains variations? Any other possible explanations?

For the money it's rather silly isn't it. I find myself looking at nice shiny cd players thinking, mmm, nice box, but it wont sound any better than a 750 quid dac1. As much as I fancy a flash cdp like the Ayre, I can't help thinking it's a pure waste of cash. Money far better spent on ever better / more amps and speakers!

Please remember the DAC1 was designed for the studio! In its defence, any review on mediocre HIFI systems is extremely misleading. Treat yourself to a carefully setup Active ATC demo and hear what £8000 worth of kit can do to £30000 worth of rip-off.

Either that or a pile of lurvely black bryston monoblocks with huge pmc's. Superb fun.

Originally posted by colscot
As someone else commented the SB2 does tend toward a softness, which the DAC1 seems to eradicate. I'm sure the DAC1 is really good but initially I was bummed until I realized that the SB2 is actually a lot better than I thought. I'd like to try the DAC1 into my Naim 250-2 but I'm having an issue sourcing a suitable cable. I only have a 102/Napsc/Hi-Cap so not the most resolving preamp around, however I think Mike Hanson has a 52, if I remember ?
If you think the SB2 "tends toward a softness", then you definitely don't want to try the Scott Nixon NOS DAC. The S/N DAC's best trait is fluidity. In comparison, the SB2 has a wonderful sense of dynamics and "snap".

As to the cable between the Benchmark and 250, you'll probably need to have one custom made.

BTW, my downstairs system is CDS2/52/2*135/RoydRR3.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Originally posted by Markus Sauer
Last night I played my Dac1 and boogie wasn't it's forte alright. The bass was mushy and indistinct. Bass pitch and timing were rather poorer than on the CD player I used a s a transport .... Can the Dac1 be susceptible to mains variations?
Hmmm. I certainly wouldn't call it "mushy and indistinct". Sonically, it's very well formed, but it doesn't have quite the drive of the AAA5+ (which basically equals the CDS2 in that respect). Sonically, I find the DAC1 to quite acceptable. I'm really interested to see how it compares to the CDS2, but I won't get a chance to test that until at least Monday.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Using terms like "a sense of dynamics", "snap", "drive", etc. gives a very clear picture of whatever it is you are talking about, and you are to be congratulated, sir.

Originally posted by Blzebub
Using terms like "a sense of dynamics", "snap", "drive", etc. gives a very clear picture of whatever it is you are talking about, and you are to be congratulated, sir.
Thank-you. I always attempt to communicate in a lucid, albeit occasionally verbose, fashion. Although I can present my perceptions in "sonic" terms, I find that "musical" ones are more meaningful.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-
"Look at the sound stage.... No, it's over there!"

Bub's making lots of new friends. Its a joy to behold.

Originally posted by Alex S
Bub's making lots of new friends. Its a joy to behold.
Historically, he and I have had a shared sense of mutual disrespect. I suppose this is an improvement. ;)

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

I think I'd prefer you two harassing each other, to how this thread deteriorates :o

http://www.zerogain.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8746

Originally posted by Markus Sauer
To quote Mike Hanson from another thread:



Last night I played my Dac1 and boogie wasn't its forte alright. The bass was mushy and indistinct. Bass pitch and timing were rather poorer than on the CD player I used a s a transport, a lowly harman/kardon HD 730. Strangely, that was not the case at all when I first fired up the Dac.

The midrange and treble were better than through the player's internal dac, but not by as large a margin as at first.

I wonder what the cause was. Can the Dac1 be susceptible to mains variations? Any other possible explanations?

Marcus, I find this very odd since the DAC1's bass is deep and tight (I absolutely HATE woolly bass). The DAC1 is not meant to be in the least susceptible to mains variations - there is a quote from the chief engineer John Siau to this effect on another forum which I think I quoted on Zerogain.

The only time I've heard it sounding suboptimal was when there was some kind of grounding issue with a TAG transport using the coaxial cable, which was immediately cleared up by switching to optical. This was a TAG issue which the transport also had with the Chord DAC64.

Have you changed from optical to coaxial interconnects?

Andrew

No, I've been using coaxial only.

You might give optical a try, if you have that available on your transport. But I don't see why it should have changed from your first listening session.

Andrew

Me neither. Could you direct me to that link you mentioned? I've just spent 10 minutes searching on ZG and didn't find it.

Sorry - it was on audiocircle:


"The audio path is well isolated from the power supply rails, and the power supply rails are bypassed to their own ground system (not to the audio ground reference). The DAC1 will run just fine with lots of ripple and noise on the power supply rails. The regulators (as generic as they are) are orders of magnitude better than they need to be. The DAC1 can actually run with several volts of ripple on the +/- 18 volt rails (we have run this test in the lab) without any measureable change in performance. The +5V and 3.3V regulators are the most critical. Excessive noise on the 5 and 3.3 volt rails can cause jitter. The filter caps on these rails are oversized, and there is no measurable jitter due to noise on these rails. Again, by injecting noise onto these rails, we know what the margins are, and we know that we will not gain anything by changing the regulators.

This is also why the DAC1 will not benifit from high tech AC line cords and/or AC line filters.

Here is one way to domonstrate this: The DAC1 is designed to operate with AC line voltages as low as 90 VAC. Below 90 VAC the +/- 18 volt regulators will drop out, and AC ripple will increase rapidly as the input voltage is decreased further. At about 80 VAC the DAC1 will gracefully shut itself down by applying each of three digital mute circuits. Just above 80 VAC the DAC1 will opearate normally with no detectable hum or distortion in spite of the fact that it is operating with the +/- 18 V regulators in a drop-out condition. At 80 VAC there is about 3 Vpp AC ripple on the +/- 18 V rails. The only negative impact on performance is that the ripple reduces the headroom of the analog outputs. Normally the DAC1 can deliver +29 dBu to the XLR outputs. When the power supply is out of regulation, the maximum output level is reduced to about +27 dBu."
John Siau
Director of Engineering

Maybe we should ask ALW to deconstruct these statements. Andy, you out there?

Mike H and I have ended up with remarkably similar systems. I took the sound quality route, and he took the mumbo-jumbo "boogie" route. Both end up at the same place, interestingly.

Mike H runs ATCs?

'softness', 'sense of dynamics', 'drive', 'snap'... But did the singer sound like she cared?

Paul

Ah well, no: he has the Royds and 135s, which I would guess might be similar.

Edit: forgot all about "fluidity".

Originally posted by Paul Ranson
Mike H runs ATCs?

'softness', 'sense of dynamics', 'drive', 'snap'... But did the singer sound like she cared?

Paul

Nah, you need a valve preamp for that.

Seriously though, the best description I can come up with of the vocals through my EAR864 is that the singers just seem more emotionally committed through it than through my solid state amp. I think that's because it presents the tiny inflections in the voices so accurately. Not really sure TBH but it is the result.

Andrew

I listened to a few of my standard test tracks, feeding the Benchmark DAC1 with the SB2, and comparing it to the SB2's internal DAC. Yes, the DAC1 edges out the SB2 in the "realism" department, with the SB2 sounding a bit dry. However, the DAC1 sounds noticeably slower (i.e. more laid-back), compared to the SB2.

I didn't notice this yesterday, so perhaps it could be chalked up to the DAC1's break-in period (assuming it has one). I'll keep you posted.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

A few days ago I wrote that the difference between the bare SB2 and the SB2 with the addition of the Benchmark DAC1 was not large, but that I would give it a few days and keep an open mind. Listening last night convinced me that changes had taken place for the better. The sound has now dramatically improved, highlighting huge differences in the quality of the original CD's for one thing, but also surprising me in that certain CD's I thought were poor quality are actually now very palatable. Some are just plain terrible.

The SB2 on it's own is extremely good. The addition of the DAC1 opens everything up and lays it out before you, given the appropriate original media. I hate using hi-fi cliches, so suffice to say that the sound becomes so much more cleaner and clearer. My wife commented that it didn't sound like music from a CD, but more like vinyl. I had to agree. Of course, this is how we hear it, through my system of Naim amplification and Quad ESL 57's. Whether the DAC1 is going through a breaking in period I don't know, but certainly it sounds much different than it did initially.

Colin

Colscot,

Glad things have improved for you. Funnily enough I found the sound to be good from the off.

Mike,

Your comment:

... it doesn't have quite the drive of the AAA5+...

I found this interesting. I am a great fan of Les. I owned an AAA5+ for the best part of two years - and it was the CD player that led to a quadrupelling of my CDs. However, I found the DAC1 was better in every departtment to the AAA5+. I don't feel I am doing the AAA5+ down in saying this as I have had to spend considerably more on just the DAC1, not to mention the DVD5 that i now use as a transport.

And this brings me to the point....people have stated that the DAC1 is transport agnostic, I havn't tested this - although I am now tempted. What I can say is that it is very sensitive to the digital cable that connects it; after a lot of tests I bought a Stereovox HDXV in preference to a number of QEDs, Chords and the Naim DAC1.

Any Hi-Fi is a synergy of the chain within which you listen to it.

I accept that in your chain what you state is the case. In mine:

DVD5 / DAC1 / Avondale 42.5 + 3 rail PSU / 250 / Art Skibos

It is bloody brilliant.

I am glad you are so impressed with the SB2. I am just re-organising my house. Part of the process is to move my computers into the loft, and to move my living room RJ45 into my hi-fi equipment area to allow streaming.

Marcus,

...The bass was mushy and indistinct...

I found the frequency extremes were the areas where the DVD5 outperformed the AAA5+, although the Avondale was better overall. The DAC1 enabled me to get the best of both.

This morning I listened to a selection of Aaron Copland / Do me Something - Yes (a thorough recommendation by the way) / Lord of the Rings - Fellowship of the Ring / Eleanor M. - Yola

In all these it performed brilliantly, including the bass.

I've just had my 42.5 and PSU worked on by Les (As always, thanks Les) and I am hearing things that I have not in the past. More importantly, with any music with a natural acoustic, the speakers just disappear, if you know what I mean!

I really cannot recommend the DAC1 highly enough.

That said the AAA5+ is an absolute steal!


Martin

Martin

I'm surprised at the differences you heard with cables into the DAC1. Could you tell us more? Did you try optical too or just coaxial?

Andrew

Andrew,

Here are some comments from a thread about the DVD5 CD replay quality I contributed to on the Naim site:

==========================================

Digital Cables

I have also been listening to digital cables:

NAIM DC1 / Chord Prodac / Chord CODAC.

I had expected to be thoroughly impressed by the DC1. I ran it in for six days and then did some comparisons, primarily using the overture from Lawrence of Arabia and audio concerts on DVD-V/DVD-A.

I then changed the cable connecting the DVD5 to the DAC64.

Conclusion - old cloth ears is back! Yes, I could hear differences; but I wouldn't descibe the DC1 as better. The impression is of more high frequency detail with the DC1. When I did a comparison to my family they preffered the CODAC!


I would feel far more comfortable saying the DC1 blew the opposition away. I'd strongly recommend an extended audition - which is one of the reasons for using a good dealership.

==========================================
And on another thread...

==========================================

Musical involvement.

I use my DVD5 as a transport into the Benchmark DAC1.

I listened to a wide variety of music, including music DVDs with a LPCM soundtrack.

I REALLY wanted the DC1 to blow the compitition away, for me it didn't. I also roped in my daughters who picked the same cable as me - without prompting.

I didn't find the DC1 unpleasant, as I found a 55 pound QED - but enjoyed the prodac more.

It really is worth borrowing the cables and doing a demo in your system.

You can get the Stereovox on sale or return. I got hold of one due to good comments in Hi-Fi+ and, for me, it was better than the prodac - which I found better than the DC1.

==========================================

Andrew - the cables really changed the feel of what I was getting from the DAC1.

I'll drop you an email later in the week if you like and I can pop over with the stereovox for you to have a listen.

Thanks for the offer re: The EAR pre. Sorry I didn't post back but I'm busy doing DIY on the house.


Martin

Thanks Martin for the response. Where can you get the Stereovox on sale or return?

Bit busy this fortnight but we should get together after that.

Andrew

Don't worry about answering - I just ordered the cable from highendcable.co.uk

I'll let you know what I think about it. I am sceptical but ready to be surprised. I may just be too cloth-eared to notice a difference.

Andrew

Yep - that's where I got it from.

M

Well, I've had the DAC1 for about five days now. If you recall, fresh out of the box, it was a bit better than the SB2's internal DAC, but I didn't feel sufficiently good enough to warrant the cost. The next date is started to sound "boring", even though the textures were improving. Today, it's obviously better than the SB2's DAC in every respect. It's full, textured, with a wonderful sense of ambience and realism. I still don't think it has the "bounce" that I've come to expect from Naim sources, but I haven't gotten around to comparing it to the CDS2 directly. I'll be running the network cable in the next couple of days, so I'll know soon.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Mike, thanks for the update. Have a listen to the headphone sockets if you have some decent 'phones.

Martin, my HDVX arrived today. I've done a little A/B versus an optical cable, just flicking the input switch on the DAC1. My first thoughts are that it seems "cleaner" than the optical, especially around the lower mids which are difficult in my room. Will do some more listening later.

Andrew

Originally posted by Andrew B.
Have a listen to the headphone sockets if you have some decent 'phones.
Hmmm. At your behest, I've just tried my AKG K240DF and Sennheiser HD330, and it's rather dry. Neither of them had the warmth that I'm getting from 102/SNAPS2/MyNAPSC/140/RoydMerlin, or through the Headline/SNAPS2. I'll leave the phones connected for a while, so that those circuits have a chance to break in a bit. If the performance changes, then I'll report back. For now, though, I definitely wouldn't listen to it as is.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Hi Andrew,

As well as listening to it on standard CD I really enjoy feeding LPCM soundtracks from DVD through the DAC1.

One of the test pieces I used was various tracks from Phil Collins live in Paris.

This DVD has a truely appalling DD5.1 soundtrack. The LPCM is good.

He uses a couple of good backing singers and a selection of good musicians, including a percussionist.

Depending on the cable used certain people would dissappear fom the soundstage, such as the backing singers and the percussionist.

I found with certain cables introduced a degree of digital top end, making vocals uncomfortable.

The DC1 was OK - but no better than a £25 QED cable to my ears.

A £55 QED was the most detailed - but introduced lots of digital effects.

I liked the Chord Prodac, but found the Stereovox was better for the same money.

As you will appreciate we are not talking about massive improvements, but a big gap between a good and a bad digital cable.

If you find your current cable OK then I woudn't expect the Stereovox to be a huge transformation.

Martin

To quote myself:

Originally posted by Markus Sauer
Last night I played my Dac1 and boogie wasn't its forte alright. The bass was mushy and indistinct. Bass pitch and timing were rather poorer than on the CD player I used a s a transport, a lowly harman/kardon HD 730. Strangely, that was not the case at all when I first fired up the Dac.

The midrange and treble were better than through the player's internal dac, but not by as large a margin as at first.

I hadn't been using the CD rig for a few days, only listening to analogue. Last night, I played a couple of CDs again and the sound was very good. Bass pitch and timing were pretty good, singers sang with more conviction than before. In hi-fi parlance, there was more clarity and transparency than when I first put the Dac1 into the system.

Either I was/am imagining things, or it was a warm-up issue, or there was another, as yet undiscovered cause. Whatever, on current form, I very much like the Dac1 and think it is good value.

Just bought the latest hifi+ to find a positive review of the dac1 inside. They said it's the best at the price, has a good digital pre section, is transport effect free. They reckon the Weiss Medea & Wadia dac has more warmth.

I'm going to listen to some of the new AVI lab series kit shortly and wondered if any of you Benchmark owners fancied popping along out of interest. I wondered if AVI could match the DAC1? Going to check out the AVI cd and pre. Maybe even some BAT valve pre's too. Maybe this wednesday or next saturday 11th June here:

http://www.rochesterhi-fi.co.uk/ROCHES~1/CONTACT_US.html

The people here are real enthusiasts and have some good kit to play with. :) Let me know if you want to pop in at the same time.

p_vantage@yahoo.co.uk

I've done the comparison of Benchmark DAC1 to the CDS2, and here's what I hear:

Both handle the frequency spectrum similarly. Neither has a "flabby bass" or "roll-off highs".
The CDS2 seems more vibrant and has more vitality.
The CDS2 seems more "distorted". (You would never notice this, except by direct comparison.)

Curiously, my comparisons between the Benchmark and the AAA5+ were similar, with the Avondale's distortion being more noticeable. Then I recall that tube amps purportedly create a particular kind of distortion that some people crave. In the studio, "vocal exciters" are sometimes used to add certain types of distortion to a vocal track, to make a voice seem more textured and passionate. I see an interesting pattern here!

BTW, I've tried a couple of different cables with the Benchmark, and they make a big difference. The best so far has been a Chord Cobra 2, which I've been told is a overly smooth. I'm about to construct one using Ringmat "Pure Signal" cable, LOK "Rhodium Performance Series Locking Barrel" RCAs, and a PREH DIN plug. However, I'm not a cable slut, so I won't be going crazy in this department.

So I still prefer the CDS2, but...

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Were you using the AAA5 as a transport?

Did you experiment with different transports and different digital interconnects (I'm assuming the cables you are talking about are used on the analogue side of the DAC)?

I don't think the DAC1 comprehensively beat my CDS2 in any respect - but it wasn't beaten either, which makes the DAC1 great VFM even in comparison to the cost of a used CDS2.

Andrew

Originally posted by Andrew B.
Were you using the AAA5 as a transport?
The primary transport for testing was the SB2, although I did hook-up the AAA5 to see if I could hear any difference. (I couldn't.)

Did you experiment with different transports and different digital interconnects (I'm assuming the cables you are talking about are used on the analogue side of the DAC)?
I've got two S/PDIF cables that go RCA-to-BNC: one from www.svideo.com and another from www.bluejeanscable.com. I tried both, and didn't notice an appreciable difference. My take on S/PDIF cables is that if they are good enough, then the data gets through and no difference should be evident.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

paul

Roy George shot up a little in my estimations after that review!

Not because it was a good one, I don't care for bad ones on the DAC1, but rather because he described the overall benefits of using this supreme device. I quote “It’s too cute, too versatile and just too damn good to get rid of!” I can’t agree more, and if you haven’t bought one yet?

Thought I'd drag this old thread up again, even though there are some new dac1 threads about. Anyway, just for the record, mine turned up. Impressive bit of kit. Just need to wait for my other bits to arrive, then I can power it up.

Where can I get one of those Stereovox coaxial cables online, or over the phone then?