Has anyone listened to Rhedeko speakers that can comment on their sound? Thanks.

Evan,

I guess I'm first up and probably to be brought before the coals by someone for it. I worked in a hifi shop way back when, that stocked them. They were ran pretty much exclusively with DNM amps (who imported them into the country if my memory serves me well) where there was supposed to be a certain synergy between those components. Personally I have to say that I thought they were the worst sound I have ever heard, and when I say worst I mean consistantly worst. We had three models in stock between £1,100 & £3,300 and they all sounded the same - honky and crap! On saying that Paul Messenger uses a pair with Naim amps which I think would be a horrendous match but then again it takes all sorts.

Go ahead and buy with confidence.

Sean.

Hugely misguided, but more dynamic than practically any speaker this side of a really large horn. A one trick pony.

I heard some at a show once with DNM amps - they were sick and wrong, but in a fun way. Coloured as hell, but astoundingly dynamic. Great for jazz drums!

Tony.

One of the guys at Loud & Clear in Edinburgh runs the Rhedekos with a fairly top-line DNM system. Never heard it, but he swears by it. So, I guess it takes all sorts. Personally, I don't really get along with the horn sound, and I believe that's the best comparison. When I had DNM amps they certainly never sounded edgy or coloured, so I can only guess it's all down to the Rhedekos (I used first Neat Petite III/Gravitas and latterly Audio Physic Virgo III with my DNMs).

Thanks for the responses. I'm thinking of taking a road trip to listen to this updated version: http://www.concertsoundusa.com/tocaro.htm.

Thanks for the responses. I'm thinking of taking a road trip to listen to this updated version: http://www.concertsoundusa.com/tocaro.htm.

Holy crap: $8 large for those? Why not try some Omegas, which are a whole lot cheaper and should give you a pretty good idea whether you like the sound. If you do demo those Tocaro's please post your impressions. I'm curious. Personally I'd like to try Zu Druids with Naim gear.

Evan, if you want max dynamics in a less utterly "wrong" overall package, check out a s/h pair of Altec 19s or JBL 4343bs. They'll cost a lot less than that and they are simply better speakers (IMO)
I'm still waiting for someone to grab a listen to the Lipinski speakers...

I hadn't heard of Lipinski Joel (I found them here (http://www.lipinskisound.com/products/loudspeakers.html)) and my first thoughts were simply, ah another conventional box with old fashioned flawed cones. They certainly seem to have a lot of positive endorsements though.

Sitting a pair on the 'powered stands' would presumably attract a Ranson sticker too for the elegance and efficiency of their engineering - no need to keep the amp under the sofa Paul! If they sound good, it's a neat lifestyle way of doing things.

I heard the Druids at a dealer's on the backend of RA Opus 21, CAT pre and CAT JL2 amps. I thought they were awful. I currently have MF9s shoe-horned into my listening room and really want to try a smaller speaker in the room to determine whether I have completely compromised the MF9s by virtue of placing them in this room. I am considering two-way floor standers or stand-mounts or some type of single driver, crossoverless design.

Any suggestions?

Evan

I heard the Druids at a dealer's on the backend of RA Opus 21, CAT pre and CAT JL2 amps. I thought they were awful. I currently have MF9s shoe-horned into my listening room and really want to try a smaller speaker in the room to determine whether I have completely compromised the MF9s by virtue of placing them in this room. I am considering two-way floor standers or stand-mounts or some type of single driver, crossoverless design.

Any suggestions?

Evan


Klipschorns, Tannoy horns of approporaite size and cost. Not smaller, but are placed backs to the wall / backs to wall into the corner.

Quad 988s if you have plenty of room behind the speakers.

Evan, if you want max dynamics in a less utterly "wrong" overall package, check out a s/h pair of Altec 19s or JBL 4343bs. They'll cost a lot less than that and they are simply better speakers (IMO)
I'm still waiting for someone to grab a listen to the Lipinski speakers...

wot he said.

If you live in the US, you're a lucky SOB because you can pick up vintage Altec and JBL gear for prices that make the rest of us green.

Check out this for an example. I can hardly bear to read it, so low is the price :(

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1136551444

or maybe these would like to come home to roost?

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1135963035
http://gon4.audiogon.com/i/c/f/1130778514.jpg



unless your room is very small, either of the above are in another league to a little pair of standmounts IMHO.

Evan,

I really hope that you made it to Concert Sound to hear the Tocaros, because I was just there last weekend and was absolutely stunned by what I heard. I became one of Creston's customers about six months ago when a friend turned me on to Crimson's electronics and after listening first to the 610 preamp and 630 monoblocks, I felt that 30 years of drifting in this hobby moved significantly toward resolution. I was then invited to acquire the yet to be announced 710 as a prototype, more or less as a beta user, and got that with the 640 monoblocks. Again, I was blown away at the boxes' ability to conjure up pure pleasure from my sources.

Last weekend was Crimson's launch party for the 710 at Concert Sound, Crimson's distributor and, I believe, the only US dealer. Crimson's Peter More was in attendance and he is truly a genius at what he does. He's also a hell of a nice guy; that doesn't affect the sound, but it certainly doesn't hurt. The reference system was a DNM/Reson Rota turntable or Resolution Audio Opus 21 into the Crimson 710/640s, then the Tocaros, all by DNM cable.

A slight digression: Creston Funk told me about Rhedeko speakers in one of our first telephone conversations and said that he had become bewitched by this speaker years ago. He intended to import them to the US, but Mr. Rhed had the misfortune of dying prematurely. Without him, the company could not continue. Creston had never heard anything that approached the Rhedeko's ability to convey the essence of the music. Now please, do not take that to mean that the speakers were the "best" on an absolute basis, but I will get to that later. He was thrilled to later learn that two dedicated Rhedeko customers decided to start up Tocaro, and we now have the Rhedeko's "son" available to us.

So, two friends from the midwest and I met in Austin Friday night and after a get to know Creston and Peter dinner, proceeded to have our socks totally blown off by our first exposure to the system listed above. I cannot describe the experience in words. I certainly can emphasize that I now feel that I had truly spent most of my previous 30 years adrift in the world of Audio. Through any of many vinyl or CD sources, the emotion, dynamics and scope of the music has never been illustrated to me with such clarity. More than once I rhetorically asked Peter: "How many people in the world have ever heard what music lies in these grooves (pits)?" Truly I believe that less than a handful outside the original recording session have ever heard the performance in this way. Audiophile terms like "air", "dynamics", "tight bass", etc. fail to describe the experience, though the sound has all that. What the audiophile terms fail to describe is the visceral impact of getting the music right. Of course, it is a synergistic coupling of the source, electronics, and the speakers. The experience would be severely hampered by changing any of the links in that chain, again, IMO. The Tocaros are so extremely revealing that anything short of the Crimson electronics would fall short of conveying the magic that exists in the original grooves/pits. Talking to Peter More, the complexity of getting all of the elements right is mind boggling: essentially getting the individual PRAT elements of all the instruments or sound elements to line up simultaneously. For context, let me say that the electronics that immediately preceeded Crimson in my system were Naim 252/Supercap/250(2). Then, as now, I had/have a LP12/Grace 707/Shure V15Vmr and Naim CDS3. I am currently evaluating a RA Opus 21. The vinyl playback may not be state of the art, but is excellent nevertheless. I think few on this forum would throw stones at the CDS3.

Well, enough for plugging Crimson, though I would gladly start a thread to do just that. You wanted to know about speakers that are no longer available and whether the Tocaros are a worthy successor. I cannot comment on the Rhedekos, never having heard them, but I am absolutely gobsmacked by the Tocaros! I have an RCA Red Seal recording of Carmina Burana with the St Louis Symphony under Leonard Slatkin with Sylvia McNair as soprano soloist that I take with me any time I know I will be auditioning an audio system, cuts 21 through the conclusion. Unfortunately, Carmina Burana has been cheapened by a recent stupid credit card commercial, and it seems to be a favorite of classical music newbies, right behind Vivaldi's Four Seasons. I am not casting any aspersions on classical music newbies; the more there are, the more likely classical music will thrive. No, I just want to point out that I have lived with classical music since birth, when I came out with a violin under my chin. But, I digress once again. Cut 21 on that CD will make the hair on the back of your neck stand on end when reproduced
through a truly great system. The system listed above would have brought me to tears if I weren't sitting in a room full of Texans. I could go on and on listing different sources, but I think you get my drift.

So, why all the negative input from each of the other posters on this thread? It would be too simplistic to say the other guys simply "don't get it". No, I think it has to do with different goals for the music experience. My current speakers are the Dynaudio Confidence C2s, which at circa 5 feet in height, would proudly grace any he-man system. They go way loud, way low, and sound very accurate to boot. No speaker can be all things to all people, and if the Tocaro sounds anything like the Rhedeko, I may have a few salient thoughts. The Tocaro's great strength is its quickness, IMO. They are incredibly fast, giving a stunning leading edge to plucked bass, percussion, and voice sibilants. As a corollary, the sound decay is extremely accurate. Having an efficiency of 99dB or so is, I think, a related but not necessarily required asset. I remember back in the 70s, the Klipschorn had that quality. At the time, it was too expensive for my student budget and I bought into the rap that it was too colored. To this date, I have an aversion to horn colorations. The only other experience that comes close to last weekend's epiphany is an encounter I had with the Avantgarde horns two years ago in New York. I didn't have any CDs, so listened to cuts from a Satchmo CD and the ubiquitous (at the time) Nora Jones. Nora was RIGHT THERE in the room. I have never forgotten that feeling. Again, the expense and horn coloration, not to mention the butt ugly speakers, crossed them off my list. The Tocaros don't go to 20 Hz, but they go plenty low enough, and they may not get all the way to 20K Hz, but they certainly do "air" in spades. There are necessary trade offs to making a single driver speaker, but they do musical expression like nothing else, and they are not horns. My friend Steve, who has forgotten more about audio than I have ever learned, says the Tocaros are the "real deal", and he is convinced that the lack of a crossover deserves much credit. I have never heard a Lowther design, but from what I have heard of such design's shortcomings, the Tocaro shares none of those. The sound itself may find its detractors, but no one, and I mean no one can fault their ability to truly make music. If that is not what you are looking for, this will not be the speaker for you.

So, if you have not made that road trip, I enthusiastically encourage you to do so. From the way it sounds, you are much closer than the 2000 miles I traveled last Friday to do the same. You will be struck by Concert Sound's stark, minimalist "showroom". Creston has distilled his many years' experience and you will not find multiple audio equipment lines. If you do not find his offering to fit your taste, he or his able assistant Joey will be happy to direct you to any of the other six high end stores in Austin that may carry what you want. With Saturday afternoon free, the three of us did just that exercise, and if it were not for Joey's presence and the comraderie, the visits to three high end stores would have been a total waste of time. Well, actually, a Naim Nait 5i into Neat speakers system was pretty good.

Norman

I hadn't heard of Lipinski...
I have a distinct recollection of being interested in them after reading various articles on Bob Katz's web site. Including one with applicability to Rhubarb. Half way down http://www.digido.com/portal/pmodule_id=11/pmdmode=fullscreen/pageadder_page_id=29/ in fact...

Most of the other articles are also worth reading.

No idea about Rhedeko, but if you like it buy it.

Paul

Norman,

Thanks for the excellent report. Unfortunately, I did not make it to Concert Sound last weekend as work and family issues intervened (I had to eat my plane ticket!). Anyway, I'd like to take this discussion offline. I have sent you a pm.

Evan

I thought it was Rehdeko..

I thought it was Rehdeko..

You are quite right. He was Weber Rehde. I normally pay close attention to such details.

Norman

It was a treat to visit with the Hi-Fi Posse! :) Y'all come back now, ya hear!

Hey B-Diddy,

Right back at you. So, another slow day?

Evan, above says you really should have insisted on switching to the 202/200 as the Nait is not up to the job of driving the Neats. Actually, it seems that many of the Naimees say that the 250(2) is not even up to the job.

Later,

Norman

In my opinion, nothing less than a 250 is up to driving the MFS, and that's a stretch. I've had the MFS, MF7 and MF9, and the MFS are the most difficult of the three to drive (i.e. control the bass).

The client is always "right" ;) . Y'all were pretty much rocking out (as much as one can with Opera) with the Nait though, right? Personally, I think the 200 is more than enough juice for the MFS. I'm looking forward to getting in the Heed Nexus which will be 100 watts. Same as a NAP 500 but $15,000 less.... hmmm. Should be interesting.

Yes, Austin has more Hi-Fi shops and Tattoo Parlors per Capita than anywhere else in the US... sad, but true!

Creston and his shop are a "class act". I really enjoy visiting him and listening to the DNM gear. He let me borrow some Crimson for about 6 months once. Great stuff!

Norman,

Just saw your cds3 up for sale- what are you replacing it with?

Bruce

Norman,

Just saw your cds3 up for sale- what are you replacing it with?

Bruce

Ummm. How can I put this? I need to downsize.

You have a PM.


Norman

He needs to finance the MFS :D

He needs to finance the MFS :D

Wow. You must really be having a slow day. :rolleyes:

Evan,
The big date is set 4/1/06 Peter and Creston will be up on Wednesday and we will be setting up that night . They are bringing some new toys !!! give
me a call and I will give you all of the low down. 203 393 1932 or my cell
203 824 0936 or work 1 800 852 4898
Ron

someone ever heard hedlund speakers?

http://tinyurl.com/n5s3k


Creston has been after me to run the Crimsons on my sealed box horns I made.
Being sealed box they are not super efficient at 94 dB.
Mid and twee are Beryllium compression drivers, xo is custom with all paper and oil caps, mills resistors, mallory l pads.
They do appear hungry, I'll admit.

stumpy,

one needs to be logged in to that Kodak site you linked to to see your photos. Doesn't work for me.

I knew that seemd too easy.

try logging on with this email address (ratts5-at-usa.net) where -at- is @ and use password takeapeek.

Hey I just ordered a Crimson 710 and 640e for eval.

-dave

Try flickr.com, works for my photos.

Your speaker looks very nice. Mind telling us the components? The mid horn looks like TAD, but the tweeter?

Yes, it's an all TAD system (1802/4001/et707) I built 7 years ago. I bought all the drivers except the woofer on the used market.

It is, in essence, a variation of the CAR T-1. However, the woofer is sealed (what's funny is that with this woofer they give one set of t/s parameters on the website but when you get the woofer they include a sheet of paper with an entirely different set of t/s parameters, indicating it could be used with a sealed box, and using LEAP I determined a q=.7 box of 94 dB, f3= 40 hz if I recall. This would be the same as a typical 8.5 inch sb woofer except for a 8 dB increase !!). Anyway, the sealed box and the paper and oil caps/mills resistors and other "audiophile" parts seemed to slow and smooth out the compression drivers (in this case a good thing) . So I can use this speaker with good ss without a problem, though it's very revealing of midrange problems down the line. I haven't really heard anything I'd rather have. Spatially it's not exactly an MBL. You have to sit between the speakers and at least 15 feet away. Those are the only two drawbacks, however.

Sadly I hear TAD are effectively discontinuing production of the compression drivers. To much demand for the Beryllium in the Model 1 apparently. It's really screwed me up unless somenoe can locate a pair of 4003's!

I did not know that. I hope mine don't break, I bought them refurbed. But home audio use is like putting these drivers out to pasture...you could try emailing here:

http://www.classicaudiorepro.com/page2.html

woooo... T3 is great!@

Yep. The L pads are really nice have.
There is only one manufacturer of quality Lpads that I know of, Mallory, and they are about $150 ea (agh), which is what is in these speakers and the CARs.

I see you have 'bricks, Kuma. I always wanted to build some speakers with the old KEF drivers but either they don't make them anymore or I couldn't find them.
(isn't that what's in 'bricks ? the 6x9 Kef woofer ?)
So does Art Audio Jota really drive them ?

For privacy, I'm about to change my password on that Kodak page.

AFAIk, both KEF 110 or 139 are no longer available.

someone here said, Linn modififed those drivers. ( dunno if it's true ).

I was told that it's still possible to make one-off driver made today, but probably it will cost a fortune and don't even know if they sound the same as the original.

As far as Jota mono driving the Briks, they are okey at the moderate level and sound glorious at a low level. But they quickly lose the steam if I want to crank up the volume and this is where a 300 comes in handy.

Surprisingly there isn't much difference in voicing between a passive 300 and Jota monos.

Keep us posted of how you get on with the Crimson.
I think that a 710 preamp is a gem.

The 710 is wonderful. It only took a few hours of listening for me to decide that.
I'm getting it. Now for the amp, that's a harder nut to crack.
Say, did you ever hear a Boulder 1060 ? (to throw out an expensive one)

Stumpy.

Just how much power does your speaker need?

I've only heard the 1060 using their 2010 preamp ( it's a great preamp btw, but I prefer the 552 ). It's excellent but 1050 monos are even better. ( got 70k$ and two dedicated 30 amp. mains? ) ;)

The 710 is wonderful. It only took a few hours of listening for me to decide that.

My experience exactly. My 252 and Supercap were on the auction block immediately.

I'm getting it. Now for the amp, that's a harder nut to crack.


Why not the 640Es? I believe in synergy between components. And, the 640s can be switched on/off by 12V trigger from the 710. In that case, they are put into standby rather than a cold shut down.

Norman

I am trying the 640Es and I think they are an exceptional value.

Unless you build it yourself, it's very hard to save more than 67 percent, imho. I mean, in general, a killer vfm product might be 1/3 the cost of its high priced equivalent, but no more. (as in: a 7k preamp being as good as a 20k preamp, but not as good as a 40k preamp, to pull some numbers out of thin air).

I kind of just came up with these ratios based on intuition, some d.i.y. and some manufacturing experience...I could be full of it too.

*(as in: a 7k preamp being as good as a 20k preamp, but not as good as a 40k preamp, to pull some numbers out of thin air).*

In hifi, quite often, tho, the math doesn't work that way.

The personal taste thing.

I was generalizing. :p

A fairly complex active device is going to cost some money in parts and in manufacturing (labor or quality control), no matter how innovative the design or how prudent the manufacturing and distribution, since none of these things are built on a mass scale.

And in general the more it costs (at least to build) the better its potential to be a better product.

Especially since most everyone has access to the same knowledge base and parts bin. (though this is debatable too).

Therefore, one cannot expect a $1000 amplifier to be better than all $10,000 amps in all systems. :rolleyes:

Now my head hurts.

Therefore, one cannot expect a $1000 amplifier to be better than all $10,000 amps in all systems.

I dunno.. there are so many uber turky amps that are only good as a door stop.

I stop doing the generalisation thing since I've encountered too many exceptions.

Ok, there are a lot of exceptions. I was trying to answer a question in a round a bout way, and this is what I deserve. e.o.t.

so, are you keeping the 640E?

I haven't decided that yet. My system sounds very good using the 710 through my tube amp, on par with your Art Audio I would say. There are pluses and minuses to both of them. I'll probably wind up with two amps just like you...my tube amp lets in more detail through the mids and highs, there's no denying that.
You've heard the TAD drivers and they are capable of extraordinary resolution, much better than common dome drivers imho.

It is a pp 30 watt amp built to a very high standard and my speakers are 94 db (but heavy cone sealed woofers). The 710 though was just simply better than my tube pre, though, and a simple choice. This isn't an easy hobby.

I'm not surprised you are leaning towards your valve amps.

From my experience, it is more difficult to find a decent preamp than a decent valve amplifier. And my preference so far is a *good* solid state preamp over any valve ones I've tried so far.

I agree. My system sounds the same as it always did, only better, with more precision, clarity and involvement. Like what sellers of $4000 interconnects promise...And I'm not sure I want to change it so radically as to go with another type of amp.

If the voicing is similar making a switch from a valve to solid state amp should not change many things providing they are both working with a given preamp optimally and driving a suited speakers.

That may be true. The 640E are not voiced like my tube amps. The perspective is more distant, which is sometimes a good thing, the bass is, of course, better, and the overall presentation is more restrained or polite. Really the 640E are perfectly good, and the tube amps seem slightly distorted comparatively, but they sometimes sound like live music in the room, which is a hard addiction for me to get over.

Just curious.

What other solid state amps have you owned ?

With these speakers, I've used a Naim 250.2 with 282, and much earlier, a Lazarus H1a hybrid. I designed the speaker on a Plinius 50 wpch (no longer made).

The 640E does sound somewhat like the 250.2, though slightly more resolving and with a bit better bottom end. Both the Naim and the 640E are too "polite" on these speakers. It could be because they don't have to work hard enough. I actually enjoyed a Quad 909 too, but with its little preamp there was too much noise.

My current Thor amp is more detailed and involving, and I like it better than valves from Wyetech and Legend too, which I've also owned.

The 710 is clearly the best pre I've used, however.

Hi !

Interesting topic. Rhedeko was made by a guy called Werner Rhede. At least that was what my hairdresser told me 15-20 years ago when I had hair. Werner Rhede used to live in Esbjerg, where I also live, but moved to France where he founded Rhedeko. Each time when he was back in Esbjerg, he would go to my hairdresser, which was one of my friends father, and these two old men would discuss life in general, and how poor the young kids behaves now adays..

Sadly neither my hairdresser nor Werner Rhede is with us any more, and I never got to hear a Rhedeko speaker, but I sure would love to, so if anybody out there has any for sale, please let me know.

It is strange to think that from my small hometown which has 70.000 inhabitants, was a guy who made musically exciting speakers long before the world was devided into flatearthers, those who believe the world is round, and us who knows it is slightly oval ! ;)

Both the Naim and the 640E are too "polite" on these speakers.

Maybe some amps want to see a certain load. My 300 doesn't sing too well on relatively easy to drive standmounts ( *polite* as you put it ) whilst it does a pretty respectable job driving the Briks.

Naim amps are odd in that they don't mind a tougher load so long as they don't see a wicked spikes in impedance. ( my observation so far anyways. )

I've heard the Crimson amps/preamp with a pair of ATC which has a tougher load than the Rhedeko Tocarro but they both sounded fine to me. ( I can't recall Tocarro's impedance/sensitivity ) I know they don't have xovers, so that should be easy one to drive, tho.

Anyways, once you live with a valve amp, almost all solid state amps sound *polite* or dynamically flacid. ;)

It would be interesting to hear the Tocarro with a decent valve amp.

"Anyways, once you live with a valve amp, almost all solid state amps sound *polite* or dynamically flacid" lol

I thought the 640 was a fine amp. But my (much more expensive) el34 amps (2 el34 per monoblock) with the 710 and TAD speakers are amazing.
In your audition of the ATC and Crimsons, you must not have had top level sources or were not able to switch amps. Or those particular ATCs, being passive, weren't able to resolve fine detail.

I've heard a cds3/552/ATC scm10 (the big ones) active (with ATC amps) playing some of the same CDs as in my system. It's something one doesn't forget.

Anyway the detail level of that all out flat earth system and mine, now with the the 710 and valve amp, are comparable. With the 640e in my system there was a drop in detail retrieval down to 282/250.2 levels. I do think that my passive TADs are the equal or better of the active ATCs. (I probably spent as much in passive xo components as I would have on a active xo, a dubious choice possibly, made just because I know what I'm doing with a passive xo, having designed scores of them for high end and pro speakers). Of course, detail resolution isn't everything...

Hi Thomas Sillesen!

Nice mail, and nice words - although I have some corrections.

Weber Rehde was his name.

Weber Rehde did not go to France and then starting making speakers.

Weber was a musician playing several instrument at concert level. Though the clarinett was the prefferred instrument.

He was educated at "Københavns Musikkonservatorium" and was an electro engineer beside that.

1949 he went to France to come further with his musical career, and ended as an orchester leader at Radio Luxembourg. As he got married he started working in the studio with recordings, there his interest for speakers started.

After some years he joined the R&D department "chez" Audax before he founded Rehdeko.

I think I know the story about the haircutter, Grunddahl was his name, please correct me if I am wrong.

Thomas I have some Rehdekos and I live only about an hour from Esbjerg, so if you want we can arrange something.