Companies House have received a Proposal to Strike Off (http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/62a1c4eed2db2465e200f6daf485ad60//compdetails) for Mana Audio, allthough the proposal has been suspended, most likely due to objections from the Inland Revenue or HM Customs & Excise which do this if they are owed money by companies requesting to be struck off.

Michael.

Searching the index that Michael has linked to using the company number of 04079600 makes it a whole lot easier.

Cheers,
Simon

An honourable company would have made what has happened clear on their forum.

what has happened

What did happen then ?

It is interesting to note that several members on the Mana Forum are implying that the business is still functional and taking orders - check out the 'order form' thread in the main room. I wish JW would make a public statement as to whether Mana are still in business, taking new orders, and whether the company intends to fulfil it’s outstanding customer orders.

This whole situation places independent audio forums such as pfm in a very awkward position; I personally wish Mana no harm and genuinely hope they can recover, but given the proposal to strike off, claims of unfulfilled customer orders and the lack of any real information to the contrary it is hard to recommend anything but extreme caution to pfm members in dealing with this company until their trading status is fully clarified.

Tony.

Searching the index that Michael has linked to using the company number of 04079600 makes it a whole lot easier.Yes. Apologies, I tried to link directly to the results but it's obviously session based and so not possible.

For some more info see this thread (http://www.zerogain.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11443) on ZeroGain.

It's outrageous that JW is saying nothing. I have a lot of respect for IanW aswell but for him (a mod on the Mana forum) to report that he recently took delivery of his order and imply that all is well when it very clearly isn't and others are £1K+ out of pocket is a pretty poor show IMO.

Continuing to trade whilst insolvent is fraud.

Michael.

Continuing to trade whilst insolvent is fraud.

Michael.

Accepting orders that you know you can't fulfil is wrongful trading, which is less severe (fraudulent trading is hard to prove and also carries severe penalties).

Any creditor can object to a proposal to strike off, although tbh they'd have to be pretty clued up.

edit : btw, it's entirely possible that the proposal to strike off was initiated by Companies House as a result of the failure to file either the last set of accounts on time, or the last annual return (both overdue). I'd be surprised though because they aren't that overdue.

What Tony L said.

The application to have the company stuck-off at Companies House does not necessarily mean that the Company is bust. The normal course of events would be that a Creditor or the directors of the Company would make an application in the High Court to wind the Company up, which if granted would place the Company in the hands of Adminstrators. This does not appear to have happened, as such an application should be preceeded by a notice in the London Gazette. In searching the Gazette, it seems that HM C&E applied to wind up a Company called 'Mana Acoustics Ltd' in July 2000, but there are no recent applications.

If the Company is or has been trading insolvently, then the directors of the Company can be held personally liable.

If you are owned money by a Company for goods you have not received, then the best advice is to try to talk directly to the management of the Company to resolve and/or clarify the position. If you cannot do this to you satisfaction, you can issue a Statutory Demand and follow that up with a winding-up petition if it doesn't produce the desired result. The first, is pretty easy to do, and you could do yourself, the second is more complicated and expensive.

Hey if nothing else you could get yourself a £5k linn deck.

edit : btw, it's entirely possible that the proposal to strike off was initiated by Companies House as a result of the failure to file either the last set of accounts on timeBut not in this case. If you look at the first post (http://www.zerogain.com/forum/showpost.php?p=156574&postcount=1) in the ZG thread I linked to above you'll see a copy of the actual application for striking off signed by JW himself.

Michael.

btw, it's entirely possible that the proposal to strike off was initiated by Companies House
There's an image of the 652a on the ZG thread apparently signed by JW.

It's of course entirely possible that Mana is reforming itself and that Heuer has fallen through the cracks. That seems unlikely given that JW knows he has a customer with a problem and has remained completely silent and apparently uncontactable.

Paul

get yourself a £5k linn deck

Second recall, it has been quite a while since JW announced his Ninja...
If I was Ivor....

Paul/Michael - fair enough, I hadn't looked on ZG.

In that case, approach with extreme caution.

Does anyone know where I can buy 3000 albums?

Personally I always thought their products were overpriced crap.

Hey, guys, let's cut JW & Mana a break here. Nobody knows the full story (certainly not me) and whilst it is always possible that there's something underhand going on, I should think it's more likely a matter of 'small company has cashflow problems and goes under'. Let the dust settle and then judge.

i agree that jw should make a statement,and the fact that IANW Got his stands recently seems a bit odd considering that jw owes a customer a rack that was orderd over a year ago jw should give him his money back,and ian as a moderator are you trying to tell us that the person who was asking about his rack was deleated from the mana forum and he has not been able to post on the forum,i think that you were fully aware of what was going on why should his post asking about delivery times be removed

Yes it does stink a bit, the fact if the matter is the internet is a very public place, if Mana chooses to be part of that with a forum, then they need to be honest or at the very minimum clear about what is going on.

The stuff that JW does not look at other forums, would not stop information getting to him about the confusion surrounding the company right now.

jw does look at forums,you can be sure that he looks here

Hey, guys, let's cut JW & Mana a break here.

Closing down a company in this way voluntarily is usually done a year or more after it stops trading - I know this having had some ex partners try to close down a company in which me and another guy had the majority of shares.

For anyone that is owed money by this company, they have the same rights as any other creditors and can object to the company being wound up. If they don't do this then all the company's remaining assets end up going to companies house.

If JW starts up another company, good luck to him, but at the moment its the creditors that need the slack not the person who allegedly ripped them off.

Cliff, point taken, but a small observation: it's normally three months after stopping trading, rather than a year (I know as I'm closing down a small company that a friend and I started which basically didn't work out - and we had to wait three months from last trading date before we could file the necessary closure forms).

In any case, all I'm saying is that without knowing all the facts we can't (as outsiders) know what's going on, and it's certainly none of my business.

If JW is ripping someone off (even if unintentionally) then that's a pity, but without knowing the full facts that's just an unfounded allegation which I hope isn't true.

"and the fact that IANW Got his stands recently seems a bit odd considering that jw owes a customer a rack that was orderd over a year ago jw should give him his money back"


"and ian as a moderator are you trying to tell us that the person who was asking about his rack was deleated from the mana forum and he has not been able to post on the forum,i think that you were fully aware of what was going on why should his post asking about delivery times be removed"

I think what is required is a few facts instead of ill judged opinions.

I help out as a moderator on the Mana forum. I have not censored or moderated any threads to do with Mana's status as a company or orders not being delivered etc. I have been told that threads had been removed but as I did not see them I cannot comment on them.

I do not work for Mana and unable to comment on what their status as a company is.

But I can state that I ordered some speaker stands some time ago and was able to collect them very recently. As did other people as related by Heuer on ZG. Unfortunately for him he was not able to do so. In my case I was prepared to wait as long as it took, clearly others were also prepared to do that.

Ian

Hi Cliff,

"Personally I always thought their products were overpriced crap."

We can always expect a good balanced view from you.

There I was thinking that you had chilled out a bit over the past few years and didn't need to be so negative about others...

Ian

Cliff, point taken, but a small observation: it's normally three months after stopping trading, rather than a year (I know as I'm closing down a small company that a friend and I started which basically didn't work out - and we had to wait three months from last trading date before we could file the necessary closure forms).

JTC = looking at companies house, the accounts from last year haven't been submitted yet, nor has the annual return. IanW's post indicates that the company has been trading as recently as his last delivery. Given these facts, its unlikely that the company can be struck off without some kind of objection from the taxman, the vatman or other creditors. At the very least the directors have a legal obligation to file the missing papers up to the point at which they stopped trading.

Hi Cliff,

"Personally I always thought their products were overpriced crap."

We can always expect a good balanced view from you.

There I was thinking that you had chilled out a bit over the past few years and didn't need to be so negative about others...

Ian

Ian, I haven't said anything about "others", its only the products that I thought were overpriced crap. Incidentally I say the same about Linn electronics, and I regard Ivor and John in pretty much the same way.

cheers
Cliff

Please can we keep this thread on topic. Ian W does not work for Mana in any capacity, he simply volunteers some of his free time to help run their forum, he is also a valued member of this forum and should certainly not have his integrity questioned in this way.

Tony.

Thread gone. My my.

Yep, as I expected. Three threads on the Mana Forum asking about the status of Mana today have been deleted within short order. JW won't earn any respect that way.

You either have a forum and take the rough with the smooth or you don't have a forum at all.

Michael.

If there's a good story to tell, it seems the obvious place to tell it. Otherwise everyone will assume the worst anyway ....

So, does this mean secondhand Mana is up, or down in value?

So, does this mean secondhand Mana is up, or down in value?
If its up, then this guy, the German (possibly former) distributor must be laughing.

http://www.cube-m.com/User%20Galerie/PICT3508a.jpg

You either have a forum and take the rough with the smooth or you don't have a forum at all.

All the denial and censorship achieves is to move the issue over onto far larger platforms like pfm or ZG where the topic will be allowed to run and be viewed by exponentially more people than if it had been tackled and defused at home. Defies logic IMHO. I don't especially like the topic here, but given the lack of credible arguments to the contrary I have little option but to let it run it's course. I am perfectly happy to publish any official statement made by Mana or their agents to ensure both sides are heard.

Tony.

As the importer of Mana in the USA I am not sure what to tell you. AT this point I have no confirmation one way or the other on what has happened to Mana.

to ensure both sides are heard

Fair enough

Why not give JW a call or email, asking for comments (or no comments)
I think it has to be done by a moderator only

Why not give JW a call or email, asking for comments (or no comments)
I think it has to be done by a moderator only

John Watson is very aware of both pfm and ZG, he will certainly have read this thread. He knows my email address and is very welcome to register here should he wish to. I am just making it publicly known that pfm will allow both sides to comment on this issue.

Tony.

We should bear in mind that he might wish to make comment, but could have been advised not to do so by his accountant or solicitor.

And therefore a lack of comment does not necessarily imply guilt

A statement could still be made explaining that he has been gagged by his solicitor, etc. from commenting further. At least you would know publicaly that he is well aware of the situation.

Isn't it strange that so few know the full story but so many are happy to judge

Not in the least - it's human nature to speculate. What's strange is that anyone is the least bit interested.

What's strange is that anyone is the least bit interested.


Not really Bub...given his reputation as a 'colourful' member of the industry...and the fact that lots of PFM members have probably bought or demmed his gear in the past.

Isn't it strange that so few know the full story but so many are happy to judge

No not really. What IS strange is that Mana have not either deemed it fit to respond and give us "the full story", or threaten forum owners with legal action of the suppositions are wide of the mark.

Maybe that's not really strange - more telling.

Bub - you are right it is human nature to speculate (or comment/judge without the facts) and never more so on a forum were identities/motives can be hidden. This is true whether giving a judgement on a company or a product never heard.

This is not much different to mob mentality, when having heard part of the story a judgement is made, a bandwagon is jumped on, a demand is made for action and that the group concerned come clean. Next the mob bays for blood (figuratively or literally).

Which is more fundamentally dangerous?

A wise man once said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

Merlin - can I assume that:
1. You have a right to the 'full story'
2. You are a legal expert and therefore KNOW the legal position on 'taking action against forum owners
3. That you KNOW what professional advice Mana have been given
4. That you KNOW what JW/Mana's financial position is and if they could afford to take legal action even if they wanted to

Mike,

Not relevent I am afraid.

The only fact that is of importance is that continued silence in response to internet reports is doing harm to both JW's personal and company's esteem.

There's nothing like a former disciple posting whilst his head remains in the sand. Those without allegiences can easily put two and two together and get four.

Excuse my ignorance but how come all this nasty sniping has arisen from just one, AFAIK, angry/dissatisfied customer claim which would seem possibly to have coincided, unfortunately, with perhaps either a liquidity hiccup or a production line/company rethink and maybe also a personality clash. Seems lots of people have got it in for Mana or rather for JW and now just because he hasn´t risen to the bait and answered back it´s pillory time. I would guess that many are anti-Mana because they consider it unnecessarily expensive angle iron in these days of 40 quid singing and dancing DVD players and similar crap - so don´t buy it already. For what it´s worth, in my very limited dealings with Mana, I have always received excellent service and friendly advice, both by e-mail or over the phone.

Excuse my ignorance but how come all this nasty sniping has arisen from just one, AFAIK, angry/dissatisfied customer claim ....I don't think it has; I think it's arisen from a lack of clarity of the solvency and trading status of Mana Audio Ltd.

On the one hand, there are a number of customers who seem to have had to wait a long time for their orders to be fulfilled, several more still who seem to be trying to order goods but can't get cost and delivery information (including seemingly the US importer), and an application signed by JW for Mana Audio Ltd to be struck-off at Companies House. There is also one fairly well documented case of a customer who has paid £1000, and recieved neither the goods he ordered nor his money back.

On the other hand, all threads asking for reasonable clarification on the Mana forum are apparently pulled by JW, and no statement from JW or the company has been forthcoming.

People are perfectly capable of drawing their own conculsions (and human nature being what it is they undoubtedly will do). Confidence is a big part of doing business, so if Mana isn't bust, then this seems a pretty good way of getting there fast.

Excuse my ignorance but how come all this nasty sniping has arisen from just one, AFAIK, angry/dissatisfied customer claim which would seem possibly to have coincided, unfortunately, with perhaps either a liquidity hiccup or a production line/company rethink and maybe also a personality clash.

The most telling piece of information is a scan of the 652a Proposal To Strile Off document signed by John Watson that can be seen on the thread on Zero Gain (http://www.zerogain.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11443). This is the main reason I am allowing this thread to run, i.e. Mana Audio Ltd does not appear to exist anymore in any legal sense, and anyone considering making a purchase, especially given the deliberate censorship evident on their own forum should be aware of this information.

I would like this thread to keep as much as possible to a factual basis – I find the notion that some people may actually revel in a business failure more than a bit tasteless, like or loath the product no one deserves that. Please lets stick to the hard facts, and all that is concrete and indisputable at present IMHO is the 652a Proposal To Strike Off document and the ongoing censorship of any enquiries about the trading status of Mana Audio Ltd on their own web forum.

Tony.

Merlin: "There's nothing like a former disciple posting whilst his head remains in the sand"

Who does this refer to?

As I already said, the form displayed on ZG can only be submitted for a dormant company, or one whuch has never traded. Its impossible to get it past HMC&E and the Revenue, if accounts are overdue and it traded in that period. My best guess is that its a bit of a try on, ie winding up the company without doing the accounts.

If by inference, Mana are claiming not to have traded for some time, I would urge anyone thinking of sending them money to do so only using a credit card with protection against insolvency.

cheers all

HMC&E and The Revenue are the same people nowadays - HMRC.

Also the 652a explicitly states that the company has done no more than settle it's affairs in the last 3 months.

I find it inconceivable that someone would wind up their company to avoid doing their accounts, but it's entirely possible - Companies House wouldn't chase a company being wound up (either voluntarily or otherwise) and so long as the Company settled it's affairs with HMRC there would be no objection from them.

Obviously to settle up with HMRC means doing the accounts...

If, as is alleged, someone took delivery of product within the last 3 months, then the 652a may have been filed incorrectly, which is a criminal offence.

It all seems quite odd, IMPO.

HMC&E and The Revenue are the same people nowadays - HMRC.

True. Although if you talk to them, they still operate as though there had been no merger.

Excuse my ignorance but how come all this nasty sniping has arisen from just one, AFAIK, angry/dissatisfied customer claim which would seem possibly to have coincided, unfortunately, with perhaps either a liquidity hiccup or a production line/company rethink and maybe also a personality clash. Seems lots of people have got it in for Mana or rather for JW and now just because he hasn´t risen to the bait and answered back it´s pillory time. I would guess that many are anti-Mana because they consider it unnecessarily expensive angle iron in these days of 40 quid singing and dancing DVD players and similar crap - so don´t buy it already. For what it´s worth, in my very limited dealings with Mana, I have always received excellent service and friendly advice, both by e-mail or over the phone.

I am that customer! I too received excellent service from Mana in the past and on the one occasion I spoke to JW he was most friendly and charming. After placing my order in April I worked with Mana to overcome the long reasons for delay in supply and never lost my cool. Eventually a Mana employee (they telephoned weekly with updates) made it clear my stand was unlikely ever to be delivered. After that phones went unanswered, no response to emails, faxes, Forum PM's to JW and my posts were deleted. No idea what caused all this. Visa tried to interevene but they got no response and pulled the Visa accreditation on Mana. They advised small claims court action which I did only after a final courteous letter to JW's home asking for my stand or a refund.

Mana have all my contact details but have never attempted to resolve the issue (I really did need that stand to complete a set - nothing to do with sound quality) so it does pain me to see a company I have supported since 1988 go by the wayside.

So to be clear - I an not angry, there is no personality clash involved and the only disgruntlement comes from my wife who had to put up with a plie of equipment on the floor of her newly designed living room!

A pity to see Mana go, if that is the case. I have heard the Mana effect, but unfortunately it included a downside that I couldn't live with. Nevertheless, for some people with different priorities it would be essential.

As for their stuff being overpriced angle-iron, ALL Hi-Fi supports are. In terms of materials, they are one of the great rip-offs of our time. If IKEA ever decided to do a proper stand, they could easily crank out something like a Quadraspire or a Naim Fraim for £25 a layer.

If IKEA ever decided to do a proper stand, they could easily crank out something like a Quadraspire or a Naim Fraim for £25 a layer.


And if its made by Ikea, it will take approximately 3 days for two people to assemble, and will be broken within a week.

:D

They advised small claims court action which I did only after a final courteous letter to JW's home asking for my stand or a refund.It's probably too late now, but I don't know why they didn't suggest issuing a Statutory Demand. There's really no point in using the Small Claims Court when there isn't any dispute for the Court to rule over - as in this case (they have your £1000 and they have failed to deliver anything at all).

Even once the SCC ruled in your favour, you would still have been faced with the problem you have now (that of collecting your money) - the SCC proceedure just wastes some time and increases the costs. It would be a different matter of course if there was a dispute over the debt - if you had refused delivery of the goods, or taken delivery of something about which you were not happy for example.

Not sure a buyer who paid for goods not received would be entitled to issue a statutory demand (any lawyers here?).

With a judgement in the small claims court, if there is no repayment, then distraint could be imposed.

It works fine the other way round ie. if you supply goods and don't get paid.

Distraint is pretty easy to avoid - lock the doors and don't let the bailiffs in, deny you own anything they point at etc etc.

IME collecting money is much, much harder than getting the courts to give you an order saying you're owed it!

(BTW, I'm no lawyer)

Not sure a buyer who paid for goods not received would be entitled to issue a statutory demand (any lawyers here?).

The requirements of a Statutory Demand are printed on the form, and you don't need to be a lawyer to issue one. In general terms, you can issue a demand for unpaid money or for the money to be returned for undelivered goods any time you wish, and the recipient on which it is "served" has 21 days to lodge a response denying the claim.

Bailiffs can get court orders allowing forcible entry to commercial property (as opposed to residential) so could remove machinery etc. from the factory.

Cav,

The "Mana Factory" was all part of the edifice. It never made a thing. It was a place where Boards, Glass, Spikes and Welded, powder coated metalwork was delivered from separate suppliers -- they'd not had stands made in-house for many many years.

Assuming any of the "machinery" hasn't long since been cleared out. Heuer (and any other people Mana owes money to) will get a fine recompense in Stickers, flat packed carboard, bubble wrap and Polystyrene Spacers.

Oh and a box stapler...

...possibly.

It could be worth the journey for the stapler.

Keep in Mind that JW and the Mana company has been around a long time and has gone through many changes. I personally and professionally will miss them. I do agree that there should be some type of statement, until then we can all just speculate. We have been importing Mana for 10 years with little to no problems until now. I do hope that we will hear from John sooner. John is a very ethical man, this must be killing him to have to do this. I do wish him and Julie the best. Yet I am hoping maybe beyond hope that my order will arrive.

I wish JW & Mana nothing but the best. However deleting threads requesting clarification of Mana's current trading status could be construed by some to be devious.

I too would welcome a public statement.

Questions are now on the forum and haven't been pulled.

They will be.

They have been.

No they haven't.

Yes they have

No they haven't. Although I really don't know why I waste my time typing this.

Browser-related problem? I'm using IE6 and can still read the questions in question on the Mana forum.

Oh no they haven't
he's behind you

No they haven't. Although I really don't know why I waste my time typing this.

You foreigners have absolutely no sense of pantomime.

Can't find it!

They will be.
They have been.
No they haven't.
Yes they have
No they haven't.
An early Wimbledon this year?

We here at FEA still stand behind the Mana product. Until I hear something from JW himself its all talk. We still get phone calls for Mana and still selling product. At this time I have a long list of people who would like to purchase Mana after the dust settles. If it settles. I would hate to see JW's business fold after all of the work he put into it. My favorite products is the referance shelf. One of the biggest sellers here in the states

We still get phone calls for Mana and still selling product.

Are you taking orders for product you don’t have in stock?

Tony.

and deposits?

there seems to be some 'debate' over whether questions/posts about Mana are being removed from the Mana site.

I'd like to say quite unequivocally that there is no debate - I've put up two posts which did no more than point out mana's ''request to be struck off'' the companies register.. including a link to the document at companies house. Both posts were physically removed.

Censorship at the Manastry of Truth? What's the World coming to?

bottleneck
Yes but the post asking if the company is still in existence is still there.

It's obviously not been spotted yet.

Because it's buried deep in another thread and seems to have been largely ignored.

The current stance is denial or lack of integrity. Take your pick.

Can we pick both? No, that would be naughty. Denial, then.

An early Wimbledon this year?Pantomime at Wimbledon at Wimbledon was very good this year, Cinderella with Richard Wilson. Well, we enjoyed it nearly as much as this one... Oh no we didn't, oh yes we did... ad infinitum.

He's behind you...

Seems the latest reaction to genuine enquiries regarding Mana's solvency is to remove the forum altogether.

Bravo.

The web site has gone too .....

Could the last one out please turn off the lights...

The website and forum are still running as of one minute ago.

Hmmm, looks gone to me.


In tribute, I suggest we start a thread about expensive wine & another on the jaw dropping effects of the special phases 4 & 7.

I always had my doubts about you.

Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.

C:\Documents and Settings\cliff>tracert www.mana.co.uk

Tracing route to mana.co.uk [69.93.50.12]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 3 ms <1 ms <1 ms www.routerlogin.com [192.168.1.1]
2 14 ms 15 ms 13 ms lo1-lon3-adsl21.nildram.net [195.112.5.30]
3 178 ms 170 ms 172 ms lon3-14.nildram.net [84.12.224.33]
4 16 ms 15 ms 13 ms g2-2-509.cr01.tn5.bb.pipex.net [62.72.139.81]
5 25 ms 25 ms 24 ms 201.g5-0.mpr1.lhr1.uk.above.net [209.249.203.137
]
6 25 ms 26 ms 29 ms so-2-1-0.cr2.lhr3.uk.above.net [208.184.231.65]

7 325 ms 129 ms 88 ms so-7-0-0.cr2.dca2.us.above.net [64.125.27.165]
8 125 ms 122 ms 117 ms so-2-2-0.cr2.dfw2.us.above.net [64.125.29.9]
9 319 ms 338 ms 259 ms 216.200.6.237.theplanet.com [216.200.6.237]
10 125 ms 123 ms 123 ms vl32.dsr01.dllstx3.theplanet.com [70.85.127.61]

11 * * * Request timed out.
12 * * * Request timed out.
13 * * * Request timed out.
14 * * * Request timed out.
15

Merely sleeping, methinks.

Steven Toy Posted: Jan 10 2006, 02:52 PM


Advanced Member


Group: Members
Posts: 87
Member No.: 18
Joined: 8-May 04



This post comes after ones on PFM stating that this place no longer exists.

Really can't understand the gleeful bitchiness of some of you.

Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
(C) Copyright 1985-2001 Microsoft Corp.

C:\Documents and Settings\cliff>tracert www.mana.co.uk

Tracing route to mana.co.uk [69.93.50.12]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 3 ms <1 ms <1 ms www.routerlogin.com [192.168.1.1]
2 14 ms 15 ms 13 ms lo1-lon3-adsl21.nildram.net [195.112.5.30]
3 178 ms 170 ms 172 ms lon3-14.nildram.net [84.12.224.33]
4 16 ms 15 ms 13 ms g2-2-509.cr01.tn5.bb.pipex.net [62.72.139.81]
5 25 ms 25 ms 24 ms 201.g5-0.mpr1.lhr1.uk.above.net [209.249.203.137
]
6 25 ms 26 ms 29 ms so-2-1-0.cr2.lhr3.uk.above.net [208.184.231.65]

7 325 ms 129 ms 88 ms so-7-0-0.cr2.dca2.us.above.net [64.125.27.165]
8 125 ms 122 ms 117 ms so-2-2-0.cr2.dfw2.us.above.net [64.125.29.9]
9 319 ms 338 ms 259 ms 216.200.6.237.theplanet.com [216.200.6.237]
10 125 ms 123 ms 123 ms vl32.dsr01.dllstx3.theplanet.com [70.85.127.61]

11 * * * Request timed out.
12 * * * Request timed out.
13 * * * Request timed out.
14 * * * Request timed out.
15

The website and forum both work for me. Failure to ping or traceroute just means they're firewalling ICMP requests, which is pretty common.

-- Ian

The website and forum both work for me. Failure to ping or traceroute just means they're firewalling ICMP requests, which is pretty common.

-- Ian

Actually, it was down for a while, and now you can tracert to it again


C:\Documents and Settings\cliff>tracert www.mana.co.uk

Tracing route to mana.co.uk [69.93.50.12]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 1 ms <1 ms <1 ms www.routerlogin.com [192.168.1.1]
2 15 ms 14 ms 15 ms lo1-lon3-adsl21.nildram.net [195.112.5.30]
3 14 ms 15 ms 13 ms lon3-14.nildram.net [84.12.224.33]
4 16 ms 13 ms 14 ms g2-2-509.cr01.tn5.bb.pipex.net [62.72.139.81]
5 25 ms 24 ms 24 ms 201.g5-0.mpr1.lhr1.uk.above.net [209.249.203.137
]
6 26 ms 27 ms 25 ms so-2-1-0.cr2.lhr3.uk.above.net [208.184.231.65]

7 89 ms 90 ms 90 ms so-7-0-0.cr2.dca2.us.above.net [64.125.27.165]
8 115 ms 115 ms 117 ms so-2-2-0.cr2.dfw2.us.above.net [64.125.29.9]
9 115 ms 115 ms 116 ms 216.200.6.237.theplanet.com [216.200.6.237]
10 209 ms 138 ms 121 ms vl32.dsr01.dllstx3.theplanet.com [70.85.127.61]

11 260 ms 134 ms 121 ms vl22.dsr02.dllstx2.theplanet.com [70.85.127.76]

12 122 ms 122 ms 122 ms vl2.car03.dllstx2.theplanet.com [12.96.160.45]
13 135 ms 127 ms 122 ms 12.69-93-50.reverse.theplanet.com [69.93.50.12]


Trace complete.

Really can't understand the gleeful bitchiness of some of you.

Actually, it makes me sad that the forum might be in the process of dying, there is a lot of good stuff in the music section over there .....

Fair enough. In general, however, traceroute or ping on their own can't tell you whether a server is running or not, unless you know for sure ICMP requests are allowed (try pinging www.microsoft.com for example and it looks like it's not running, whereas it is, of course).

-- Ian

it is still up

(try pinging www.microsoft.com for example and it looks like it's not running, whereas it is, of course).
Well, maybe.

Really can't understand the gleeful bitchiness of some of you.

If that is aimed at me, I was having a good natured dig, nothing more. See my earlier comments regarding mana, no glee here.

and at his funeral
all his friends looked sad...
but they were really thinking of
all the ham and cheese sandwiches
in the next room.


laurie anderson

I see JW has made his statement. That'll clear it up then:)

He's basically said that he'll do what he wants when he wants and to whom he wants.

Click the link I supplied above.

A fair, measured and even handed approach.

To be applauded.

I see JW has made his statement. That'll clear it up then:)
He does seem slightly frustrated...

Am I missing something? or has he not addressed the key issue in any way?

This particular thread has become bullshit.

Having read JW's post on the Mana forum, he sounds like a man under pressure. He's right, of course; we have no real idea what's going on.

But surely no-one can like seeing someone going through this sort of trouble. The guy has a livelihood to keep up, a house, mortgage and family like everyone else. It looks like all that might be sliding down the tubes, which is a personal tragedy for JW, whether you like his stuff and the people who buy it or not. And if it looks like he's not handling the situation particularly well, then hey, he's a Hi-Fi designer first and a business man second.

We have a world-leading Hi-Fi industry that is based on lots of people like JW and LesW, and they deserve our support.

I thank you for the sentiment 2MB and regard this situation as a tragedy for the entire industry. A kindly message of support for JW at this time, would I'm sure be gladly received - as indeed has my own......

Without proper communication, any business will go to the dogs. So regardless of whether this is a tragedy or whether he has any real problems, this rumour will become a self-fulfilling prophecy unless the man starts communicating.

A kindly message of support for JW at this time, would I'm sure be gladly received
I'll include him in my bed-time prayers tonight.

He's already included you in his.

I know. The friendliness was turned off like a light switch - straight after I told him that I almost certainly wasn't going to buy any more Mana. It was a revealing moment.

Play some Van Morrison tonight. No guru, no method, no teacher ...

Yes, a great album.

I think I have to look back on it all as a learning experience/business arrangement. I learned a lot about hi-fi, and actually, quite a lot about people.

I know. The friendliness was turned off like a light switch - straight after I told him that I almost certainly wasn't going to buy any more Mana. It was a revealing moment.


Maybe you should buy some of his damson jam instead?

It's traditional to talk about the majesty & bounty of mother nature (or some such baloney) on the Mana Forum whenever things are going/have gone badly pear-shaped. Like whistling in the dark, they do it every time, bless them.

Indeed

Although I would add that rhubard and ginger jam is vastly superior to damson jam,which is the chav jam in the jam world imho.

JW seems to have suspended my account on the Mana forum indefinitely - presumably because I attempted to bring the fact of Mana's situation @ Companies House to the attention of the forum (that's all I did, no speculation about what it meant or anything else).

Oh well, I only joined to prove the point that JW was censoring factual information and to not only have had my post deleted but also get banned seems to have proved the point beyond doubt.

Don't want to be a member of a forum where a bunch of immature schoolboys are presided over by a petulant child anyway.

Michael.

Tony its time to stop this thread, its getting disgusting, every one knows now, they really do.

JW seems to have suspended my account on the Mana forum indefinitely - presumably because I attempted to bring the fact of Mana's situation @ Companies House to the attention of the forum (that's all I did, no speculation about what it meant or anything else).

Oh well, I only joined to prove the point that JW was censoring factual information and to not only have had my post deleted but also get banned seems to have proved the point beyond doubt.

Don't want to be a member of a forum where a bunch of immature schoolboys are presided over by a petulant child anyway.

Michael.


Did you also diss his jam? If not,I think i will be the first jamist excludee from the Mana forum

I wonder if it tastes better on top of several slices of bread!!!

JW seems to have suspended my account on the Mana forum indefinitely - presumably because I attempted to bring the fact of Mana's situation @ Companies House to the attention of the forum (that's all I did, no speculation about what it meant or anything else).

Oh well, I only joined to prove the point that JW was censoring factual information and to not only have had my post deleted but also get banned seems to have proved the point beyond doubt.

Don't want to be a member of a forum where a bunch of immature schoolboys are presided over by a petulant child anyway.

Are you genuinely surprised? That's how Mana "works", or perhaps doesn't. "Dysfunctional" doesn't even begin to describe things.

I wonder if it tastes better on top of several slices of bread!!!
Spike, I actually LOLed at that one.

Well, it's never good to see an audio company going tits up, even one that sells products that don't actually do much, if anything, but JW does seem to have decided the best policy is to shoot himself in the head, repeatedly.

-- Ian

Well, it's never good to see an audio company going tits up, even one that sells products that don't actually do much, if anything ...
Yes, you are absolutely right.

Dammit, I can't tell if you're joking, you minx!

-- Ian

I've never bought a Mana product and I've never looked on the forum there I rubbernecked over there using the link put on here as I've no doubt lots of people have. Apart from jams and Bob Dylan the first tme I 'touched' the company I learned that those of us taking a look are basically ass-holes, Doctor Who is a particular sore and saw either barricade mentality or an absolute James Hunt of a bloke. I don't know which, his reputation on here has always said decent bloke but I would have nothing to do with him based purely on what is posted. Of course it's interesting as a general audio topic.

Anyone with half a care for their customers would apologise to nwcomers having never visited before if their first taste of Mana was from a sorry thread and idle speculation. But he didn't. Good luck to him in the future with whatever he does, I won't be amongst his clients.

Tony its time to stop this thread, its getting disgusting, every one knows now, they really do.

Censorship again? If there is debate then it serves a purpose if only to inform others, old and new, to our hobby.

The thread was killed on ZG so does that mean Mana can continue to act with impunity? I wish JW and Mana no harm, even though I am slightly out of pocket, and hope they can turn things around in due course. However we are dealing with a Limited Company here which has protection enough. The thread should remain if only as a signal to others about consumer power!

It's a compliment to this forum that the thread continues!

We seem to have gone past debate - surely the thread thus far sums up the situation and the facts as we know them (and lets face it, facts are precious few here). Anything more becomes a re-hash of the same old same old and serves no purpose that I can see.

Steve.

Don't want to be a member of a forum where a bunch of immature schoolboys are presided over by a petulant child anyway.

Yeah, me an my school chums like it here best - Tony let's us get away with murder.

Heuer get real here mate, this is free speech of the very best Wikipedia kind, its the people talking and what really is being said eh?

Have a look over this thread and tell me the news Heuer, whats being said in the name of free speech?

All I am seeing is pointers to what people have said over there. In other words a bunch of guys bitching like teenage girls.

And the funny thing is JW is putting a huge Fuck You up by choosing too talk about jam.

This thread serves no purpose and clearly has achieved nothing. Its just rubber necking of the very worse kind.

We seem to have gone past debate - surely the thread thus far sums up the situation and the facts as we know them (and lets face it, facts are precious few here). Anything more becomes a re-hash of the same old same old and serves no purpose that I can see.

Steve.

Fact - Mana has asked Companies House to dissolve the business.
Fact - Mana is suppressing information on their Forum
Fact - Mana appears to be trading despite declaring otherwise

They say someone only dies when the last person who remembers them passes away. Close the thread and it will sink to the bottom of the Forum and will be forgotten. Close it if you will but make it a 'sticky' for all to see..

Heuer get real here mate, this is free speech of the very best Wikipedia kind, its the people talking and what really is being said eh?

Have a look over this thread and tell me the news Heuer, whats being said in the name of free speech?

All I am seeing is pointers to what people have said over there. In other words a bunch of guys bitching like teenage girls.

And the funny thing is JW is putting a huge Fuck You up by choosing too talk about jam.

This thread serves no purpose and clearly has achieved nothing. Its just rubber necking of the very worse kind.

What is being said - Consumer Power is not to be messed with. In years gone by you could be stiffed by anyone and your only recourse was to Esther Ranzten. The net and Forums have changed that and Companies cannot hide behind their limited liability, so let's be open. No harm to consumers and if you do not like the thread, please ignore it.

My reality comes from being £1k down.

iGary

I can't see what you're on about. JW has no more right to make a buck that James Bl[o]unt. Yet it seems most people think its OK to say James is shite, whereas making seemingly factual observations about Mana's trading status seems to get some peoples goat.

Having a go at peoples ability to make music is no different than criticising someone who subcontracts people to make equipment supports. I'm sure its a shame to some people for anyone to go out of business, but heh, why are hifi companies such a protected species. Did anyone here really give a toss when Rover went bust? Did anyone care when Boney M stopped making records.

To be frank, if Mana was ever all it was cracked up to be by its acolytes, then it would have remained a succesful brand.

Making jam while Rome burns.

- and drinking the finest wines while the plebs may be suffering.

I smell hay.

-- Ian

Dammit, I can't tell if you're joking, you minx!

-- Ian
Now, come on Ian. Do you really think that I would find this funny?

somewhat repeated material but "...several slices of bread..." - priceless!

I pressume we will no more hear songs like:

"Buy more soundstages"
"Birthday Greetings"

That said, to be fair - there may be, or have been some interesting reading over at Mana forum....
I quite fancied the Pig/Parry battles

I smell hay.LOL :D

Is anyone aware why every post to the mana forum needs to be subject to prior preview before it can appear. I spent many years living in a country that was a dictatorship and where censorship existed (no longer, since 1990). Is this sort of attitude still acceptable in the UK, where I thought that freedom of speech was a right?

Perhaps "commercial" forums that are funded by the company are a different case.

Any comments?

presumably to stop people asking questions about the status of their orders, or the company.
Since the company appears to be pretending that it hasn't traded for three months, any post of this nature might perjure (if this is the correct term) the directors who filed the 652a (proposal to strike off), should Inland Revenue, Companies House or the Vatman pop in for a shufti. ;)

of course the longer this charade goes on, the more dishonest the directors appear to be. which means that when the phoenix rises from the ashes under a different name, only a fool would deal with them on any terms other than cash paid upon delivery of goods, whether it be suppliers or customers.

Aparently anyone who looks at their forum as a guest is, according to 'JW/Mana' a Troll.

Whilst previously I was sad that another company was in difficulty, I'm now struggling to contain my Schadenfreuder.

i am suprised that i have not been banned yet only time ill tell :D

Which one are you in?

Indifference.

Bub

Are you sure?

I'm almost too indifferent to reply, but not quite. My dealings with Mana finished about two years ago. Whether the company continues or folds is really none of my business. I can understand why some people are annoyed by it, though, especially if they have lost money.

Will s/h Mana rise in value, now that it's the only source?

YES.





Btw - I have a sound stage for sale.

Hi Bub,

How are the Mana sale going and the new stands coming on?

Cheers

Graham

I don't discuss stands these days.

Good to see Mana making good use of my £1,000:

"Hi, thanks to all of you that wished me well on my Birthday, it's very much appreciated.

Julie and the family put on a massive spread that did me proud. Needless to say I drank too much ( lovely couple of bottles of vintage champagne one was a Ruinart 1983 and the other a Dom Perignon 1990 along with some non-vintage Bolly ) and ate far too much.

Cheers and all the best

John"

Beggars belief!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v180/Chewbaxter/Little%20Britain/Ken.jpg

"Look into my eyes... the eyes, the eyes - not around the eyes... you're under!

This is a great forum, and Mana is not ceasing trading, but is rather a fantastic, vibrant and desirable way of life! JW is your benevolent leader and is required to lead a jet-set lifestyle in order to better set an example for us all!

3-2-1... and... you're back in the room!"

http://www.magicweek.co.uk/images_0150-0199/0186_mattlucas.jpg

Dexter, Excellent!

He buys a new bit of kit

Do you mean when he takes it home or months later when the post dated cheques have bounced?

hehe. At least they are framed.

There's another aspect to this that seems to have been ignored.

There's no reason that I can see why JW shouldn't close down Mana Audio Ltd and continue to trade as (for example) a sole proprietor trading as "Mana Audio".

The fact that there is a "proposal to strike off" a limited company means simply that. It does not stop the erstwhile directors deciding to trade by means of a different vehicle. I know quite a few people who formed companies a few years ago for a short term tax break who have since wound them up. In many cases, the only clue that this has happened was the omission of the word "Limited" and the registration no. /directors' names on their letterhead.

However, I do agree that the lack of any clear statement does tend to breed all manner of speculation, especially for a specialist company with any kind of profile in its chosen field. This is unfortunate, but as mentioned above there are a number of plausible explanations, none of which have anything to do with defrauding customers.

Best;

Mark

Mark

What you say is perfectly true.

However it is grossly insensitive, if not commercially naive, to publically comment on gussling expensive wines etc whilst appearing to renage on a deal for £1000.00 with a disgruntled customer.

Regards

Mick

I´m with Mark on this one. Does anyone really think that a 1000 quid hiccup/messy deal could sink Mana in this day and age ? Whether what has happened is commercially naîve/in bad taste in the real world or not is debateable. AFAIAC as I am not on a crusade for anything it certainly won´t stop me from ordering more Mana when I can and see fit to.

just don't expect to receive it

Wanna bet ?

Thread now pruned and re-opened.

Please note: any mentions of banned members and bringing arguments in from outside are both clear breaches of the pfm forum AUP and can (and in this instance will) result in a ban. This is an important topic as a forum member's money is at stake, I don't want to close it.

Tony.

Tony,

how do we know who is banned, in order to know not to mention them? This has always puzzled me.

Cliff

No bets :-)

but Mana haven't replied to mails asking for racks etc, taken money and not sent goods (and appear to be avoiding resolving the issue) and have deleted genuine requests for info on the forums....

I think in the light of the above you'd have to at least be aware that buying something may not go smoothly?

... AFAIAC as I am not on a crusade for anything it certainly won´t stop me from ordering more Mana when I can and see fit to.
Well, it's your money, but it does appear to be a rather risky punt.

Tony,

how do we know who is banned, in order to know not to mention them? This has always puzzled me.

Cliff

AFAIU there is no list because of a rather peculiar situation: one person was banned here from the beginning, befor he even registered here, purely because of his posts on other fora. Technically, for someone to be banned and not be discussed forthwith, that person would have to have been a member first. By not defining a list, Tony can keep the person from posting, and other members from discussing that person, without having to spell it out in too humiliating a fashion.

Btw, that person has posted here using several nicks, and in each case, Tony's decision proved to be wise.

...and in each case, Tony's decision proved to be wise.

Ah, I see.

Buying something from Mana at the mo is like buying something off Ebay from someone with V V dodgy feedback...

I see its Steven Troy's birthday on the fine wine and food forum.

All I meant by my "Wanna bet ?" comment was that I have absolutely no doubt that if JW were not in a position to deliver the goods, he would inform me and would not just gleefully take my cash. Sorry gents but in my book it´s one thing having supposed business difficulties and something entirely different being a thief. Seems to me that many people here have "gleefully" sentenced the man without a fair trial and this comment does NOT include the guy who is a grand down. Is there anyone else out there who can honestly claim to having been screwed or is it just 1 guy in a thread which now spans 12 pages ? Gentlemen, I submit that we are all pathetic hi-fi nerds and I for one am getting off !

See ya then.

Chris

Mana is down and out check your facts before you post
There were two people with actions against Mana for non delivery of goods

Once more

Their stuff was all crap anyway. Even hardened users like Bub eventually discovered that the stuff rings like a flipping bell in response to the vibrations from whatever sits on it.

Personally I think you have to be stoned out of your head on dope in order to "get it"

Also the so called "Stealth" amps never even made it properly into production and even the prototypes clipped into difficult loads.

Chris, I don't know whether you're in mourning or what, but who gives a toss if Mana stays closed forever. I'm sure JW will find some way of funding his wine collection.


Cliff

Cliff

I think to be fair, Mana works well under speakers and LP12s. My Briks and SBL's certainly improved a bit with Mana but never "jaw droppingly" good to quote that over used expression.

Everything else was hype.

Regards

Mick

Mick

When I had Briks (for about a year) the best mount I found for them was on concrete paving slabs on top of carpet. Essentially what you want is to not have the energy from the cabinet excite anything else than can "ring". Paving slabs do not "ring". Glass rings. You also need something that is rigid. Paving slabs are pretty rigid, although slate is probably better. Glass is a super cooled liquid, which means its constantly in motion and rings audibly at its resonant frequency.

I can understand that a good light rigid table will work well under an LP12. I use the original Sound Org table, and its fine. Again the light piece of wood on which the LP12 sits does not ring in tune to airborne vibrations from the speakers, whereas Bub, myself and others have heard this ringing and in Bubs case he has actually measured it IIRC

cheers
Cliff

PS I can only understand the use of glass in two situations - 1) something you can see through and 2) something which is impermiable to liquids. For anything else there is usually something better.

Also the so called "Stealth" amps never even made it properly into production and even the prototypes clipped into difficult loads.
I thnk its fair to say that these amplifiers actually became the ECS EA-1 and were put into production
cheers
john

John

I think ECS put "some amplifier" into production. Whether it was the Stealth I doubt. Even JW said there were differences.

Cliff

Amazon?

John

I think ECS put "some amplifier" into production. Whether it was the Stealth I doubt. Even JW said there were differences.

Cliff

It is essentially the same amplifier. As I understand it, ECS had always been the developers of the amp, whilst it was being marketed under the Mana name.

Dave

The casework was/is much less monumental than the Stealths that actually had cases. There were/are minor differences to the internals which were/are stenuously denied/accepted/denied/accepted.

It's called "production engineering". Apparently the original cases were much too costly to produce in quantity. Given that an amp case usually contributes 30-50% of an amp's production costs, it makes a lot of sense to not go overboard on the case. Particularly as the case's contribution to the sound is not that large, compared to spending the same money on the power supply etc.

For the Stealth, I understand that the cosmetics of the case (laser cut name etc.) were particularly expensive without contributing to the sonics at all.

Just get the case done in China.

(PS I'm not kidding)

Paving slabs do not "ring". Glass rings. You also need something that is rigid. Paving slabs are pretty rigid, although slate is probably better.
Cliff, anything solid is capable of resonating. It's only the frequencies and Q that differ.

Glass is a super cooled liquid, which means its constantly in motion and rings audibly at its resonant frequency.
The supercooled state of glass is a red herring. The fact is glass rings only when physically struck. If this same piece of glass is perfectly supported at three or four corners and loaded with some mass, any vibration passed onto it quickly dissipates either to the support system or into the mass it is supporting. Think tuning fork and you'll get closer to understanding how glass or any other solid material resonates.

I don't suppose you have a windowless listening room, do you? How on earth do you put up with the resonance of those huge sheets of glass? :rolleyes:

James

In some parts of Rochdale you will find windows with tape across them. This is not a throw back to the blitz but an anti resonance strategy!

If its Tony, is he taping all his valves up too?

Not me, that kind of thing goes on down the cheap end of the street.

Tony.

In some parts of Rochdale you will find windows with tape across them. This is not a throw back to the blitz but an anti resonance strategy!
Good god, might as well live in an anechoic chamber if the hifi can't make music in a domestic environment. Sheesh!

James

"the cheap end of the street."

Wasn't that a Van Morrison song?

{in Chevy Chase voice:}
"This just in... Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead..."

I thought for one minute Tony Bob was talking about me. I've more chance of sneaking Victoria Coren in through the front door than I have of taping the windows up

Out of curiosity , what equipment supports are people using which they found to perform better than Mana ?

And what Mana did some of you use ? and how did it perform in your system ?

Steve

Comparative reviews?
Good God man you'll be expecting objectivity next!

Out of curiosity , what equipment supports are people using which they found to perform better than Mana ?

And what Mana did some of you use ? and how did it perform in your system ?

Steve

Good old Sound Org floor stands and wall supports.
Sturdy, light and they hold the equipment at the right height.

Perfect for the job in other words ;)

Couldn't care less how they compare to Mana.

Out of curiosity , what equipment supports are people using which they found to perform better than Mana ?

And what Mana did some of you use ? and how did it perform in your system ?

I'm utterly convinced that an LP12 is transformed by Mana. I have a Mana Ref Wall Shelf to prove it. Previously I had Sound Org and a custom-made stand. No contest, it was truly night and day.

I'm somewhat convinced that some CD-Ps are affected by Mana. I had a CDS-II that sounded pants on the floor, little better on top of a Mana 5-tier stand, and quite a bit better on a solitary Mana Sound Table. OTOH, my Densen B-400XS sounds sublime on either the Sound Table or on the 5-tier stand.

I'm not convinced that amplifiers care about Mana. A pair of NAP135s and a pair of Densen B-350s sounded the same on the floor as they did on Mana.

The jury is out on preamps, but that's only because I can't be faffed trying to verify the Mana Effect any more.

James

Out of curiosity , what equipment supports are people using which they found to perform better than Mana ?
Small experience, but I found that any bit of solid furniture performs just as well as Mana
And what Mana did some of you use ?
Sound Frame
and how did it perform in your system ?
It did precisely nothing for anything placed thereon (including an LP12).

Interesting so far,

One person couldnt care less how Mana compare's to his Sound Organisation supports.
Says it all,
No need for him to be taking part in the Mana debate.

Another tried a Mana sound frame and heard no difference with his LP12.

One person has used a few Mana items and seems to be quite positive about them.

Tones,
May I ask what equipment, speakers and speaker cable were you using at the time you used the Mana sound frame ? and how long you used a sound frame and what you sat it on ?

James,
What speakers and cables were you using ?

I use a Mana wall shelf under my LP12 (replaced a Sound Organisation shelf)and soundbases under SBLs. To keep it short, I hear a difference.

Pete

And, more importantly, what vintage was the wine that you were drinking at the time?

I had a Mana rack and soundbases once.
Definite difference.
It makes the music a semi-tone higher.

What speakers and cables were you using ?
What does this have to do with the price of fish?

James

Hi James,

I was just curious, as you noticed no difference with your amps, Im sure the interface of all may have bearing on the outcome.

Steve

I should piont out that single malt gives much better definition and air than wine.

I had an Audiotech wall shelf and a Mana Wall shelf mounted adjacent to one another for a few weeks. I was able to switch my LP12 between the two without changing any other variables in the system. Both shelfs were mounted to a solid birch plywood backer board secured to a 2 X 6 inch exterior wall sitting on a solid foundation. Either shelf outperformed a Sound Organisation or Archidee dedicated floor stand mounted on a suspended wood floor.

In the end, I preferred the Mana wall shelf but from previous knowledge knew that a more solid surface with even a lesser stand would probably be better than the arrangement I had with the wall shelf and suspended floor.

I ended up moving the 5 tier amp rack I had holding my phono pre, line pre, power amp, and lingo to the basement which has a solid cured concrete floor and put the LP12 on the top shelf. In a nutshell, the first floor system sounds better now that it's driven by a rack of gear sitting on a more solid surface even though I'm now using a lesser amp fed from the tape outputs of the main system in the basement. The amp sits on a Mana wall shelf and is isolated from the speakers that sit on a suspended wood floor.

I think the hierarchy is (wall or floor), stand or supports, tt, tt power supply, arm, cartridge, phono pre, line pre, power amp and lastly speakers.

John
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/2293/pict1999r8eu.th.jpg (http://img337.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pict1999r8eu.jpg)

I should piont out that single malt gives much better definition and air than wine.

People have been excommunicated for less.

I would like to point out that consumers of red wine (and vintage champagne) are likely to be taken in by the sonic benefits of Mana - perhaps it is a benefit derived from the substance usage rather that the sonic benefits, per se, of the stands.

James

Mana undoubtedly affects the sound produced by equipment placed on it. In addition, the use of materials that resonate produces a "Mana effect" related to but not caused by the music being played.

I have heard kit on Mana and by comparison on Townsend SS and Audiophile Base and Quadraspire, and the most neutral on the sound was Townsend. IMHO, neutral is what you want.

Think Plywood.

IMHO and experience the benefits of an mdf structure are far superior to angle iron and glass in terms of final sonic output.

Hey, let's have a stand war, that'll be, like, soooo much fun.

-- Ian

Good idea, sideshowbob!

Stands clearly make no difference at all and anyone that thinks they do is a chronic, obsessive compulsive fiddler!

The alternative is to bury Mana and say - RIP or JW, time to try pay to those whom your company owes money and recover Mana's and your personal reputation (if you can).

Has anyone noticed, as I have, the similarity between the word "Mana" and the word "Dodo". I much prefer the Dodo to the Hawk, far superior, in fact I'd go so far as to say(cont page 94)




P.S. John. Nice retro look you have going on there.

Good idea, sideshowbob!

Stands clearly make no difference at all and anyone that thinks they do is a chronic, obsessive compulsive fiddler!

Bugger, I agree with you. Not much of a war really.

We could always fight over oil or something instead, or spill each other's pints and have a punch-up over it.

-- Ian

C'mon... first Blzebub, now Lucifer? Where's Lord Ashteroth? Where's Mammon? Where the hell is Etrigan??????

I hold the key to the identities of both "Lucifer" and "sastusbulbas".

I hold the key to the identities of both "Lucifer" and "sastusbulbas".

You obviously have access to a certain forum to which I may no longer have access!!! :rolleyes: Banned because I did not want to divulge my first name. FFS!!

Am I a pariah?

You obviously have access to a certain forum to which I may no longer have access!!! I know. The worst thing is, he thinks you are me, which is confusing, and amusing in equal measure. I wouldn't waste my time with it, if I were you.

Which I'm not, obviously.

;-)

I know. The worst thing is, he thinks you are me, which is confusing, and amusing in equal measure. I wouldn't waste my time with it, if I were you.

Which I'm not, obviously.

;-)

That is really funny, amusing, confusing and I hate to say this but he thinks he knows who I am. I am totally unaffected by his rants, raves and demagogy and attempts to rule by dividing.

Mana undoubtedly affects the sound produced by equipment placed on it. In addition, the use of materials that resonate produces a "Mana effect" related to but not caused by the music being played.
Cliff, I think the connection between material resonance and the Mana Effect is at best tenious. I don't deny the effect is there, but I don't think the cause is entirely clear.

I have heard kit on Mana and by comparison on Townsend SS and Audiophile Base and Quadraspire, and the most neutral on the sound was Townsend. IMHO, neutral is what you want.
Really? I value enjoyment first. Tonal neutrality is also important to me, but I would respectfully suggest that the loudspeakers and room have a whole lot more influence on tonality than stands ever will. Each to their own, I suppose.

James

As far as I am concerned he (and you) may consider his hi-fi as the best. That is a matter of your personal opinion(s). I cannot agree or disagree because we all have our own individual perceptions. I would never try to say that someone's opinion was wrong.

I still regard JW's system as the best ever that I've heard. However, I still use QS Ref as my support underv my equipment, and in my particular application I'd wager that it's the best to my tastes. The Stainless steel version may well have clinched it but we'll never know now.

A certain chap visited my place a few months back and confirmed what I believe despite being a multi-phase Mana user. As he said - QS Ref definitely works well in my system even if it didn't in his.

I also believe that ss Mana has a future if marketed correctly. Indeed Densen nearly went bump a few years ago iirc but it has bounced back big time! We need to do our best to keep 2-channel audio and all that may support it alive, rather than dancing gleefully on graves.

We need to do our best to keep 2-channel audio and all that may support it alive, rather than dancing gleefully on graves.


I second that!

JohanR

Thirded, but this bloke JW should stop quaffing long enough to pay his debts to his out of pocket consumers first, allegedly and all that.

Tones,
May I ask what equipment, speakers and speaker cable were you using at the time you used the Mana sound frame ? and how long you used a sound frame and what you sat it on ?


You may indeed.

At that time, the equipment consisted of:

LP12/Ekos/Klyde
Marantz CD63 II KI Sig
Quad 33/303
Rogers LS3/5a

As a non-believer in the magic of speaker cable, the wires were just some nice, thick coppery ones from the local DIY (subsequently replaced by some really expensive ones at 13 Euro per 10M - I'm still reeling from the expense). The ICs were a mixture of black Linn (supplied standard with Linn boxes), home-made and el cheapos of the type given away with Japanese cassette recorders - and good ol' David Laine's Flashback stuff for the Quads.

Things tried on the Sound Frame; the LP12 (for which it was primarily bought) and the Marantz.

Initial experiments were on a heavy cabinet. It was left there for several weeks (I was advised that it had to settle in). Having observed no difference, I then tried it on the (concrete) floor. Ditto.

The Mana was then sold and the LP12 went on to the cabinet, where it still sits, without any sort of stand.

Really? I value enjoyment first. Tonal neutrality is also important to me, but I would respectfully suggest that the loudspeakers and room have a whole lot more influence on tonality than stands ever will. Each to their own, I suppose.

James

James

I don't think I ever said that stands have more effect than Rooms, Floors, Furniture, Windows, Radiators, etc etc etc etc etc

I do however believe that putting huge quantities of glass that is designed to resonate at some fundamental frequency in a room is plain daft

Cliff

Panic Panic that is what is happening on the mana forum,sad little men have nothing to do and work hard at trying to find out the real names of members what a sad life they all lead:cool:

Come on Herman spill the beans on what you working on:D

Panic Panic that is what is happening on the mana forum,sad little men have nothing to do and work hard at trying to find out the real names of members what a sad life they all lead:cool:

perhaps cos there's a worry that Mr. House has joined the forum and that his first name is 'Companies' :p o

Could it be that JW has been commissioned by the Chinese Government to run their internet access for them and the Mana Site is the Beta version?

I do however believe that putting huge quantities of glass that is designed to resonate at some fundamental frequency in a room is plain daft
Perhaps, but some observations on my part.

I have more glass on the windows in my listening room than I have on my hifi stands.

The glass on my windows are installed vertically, and so if they should resonate, the resulting sound is directed horizontally into the room. The glass on my hi-fi stands are installed horizontally. If these should vibrate, they would direct sound vertically into the bottom of the supported piece of kit or to the carpeted floor/piece of kit below it.

If the sound of resonant glass is obvious in my room, I can't hear it. But I can hear the cicadas buzzing outside on a warm summer's night, and that's damn annoying - even with the windows shut tight.

I try not to let conceptual prejudice get in my way of enjoying music or life in general. But things that are tangible, that's a different matter altogether.

James

James

sound waves do not go in straight lines of zero width. Sound goes up down left right whatever the orientation of the source. If you stand behind the speakers do you get silence ?

Usually window glass is held in by putty in wooden frames. The wood / putty damps the resonation of windows. Mine, in the front room, vibrate nicely in response to diesel lorries going past, but don't resonate much in tune with the music.

As a matter of interest, what is the frequency that Mana recommend you (not you personally of course) tune their shelves to? Is it somewhere near middle C ? I doubt it is as low as the note you get from rapping your front windows.

Cliff,

High frequency sounds are directional. Can you hear your tweeter's direct output behind your loudspeaker? As for tuning Mana shelves, I don't think there is a choice of frequency. It's right when the same note is heard from all four corners tapped.

And there in lies the key. The glass is damped with strips of bituminous material and is loaded with mass and directly coupled to ground. It rings (very briefly) only when struck, and it doesn't ring at all when loaded with a piece of hifi kit. That's also why it's not a good idea to have vacant shelves on a Mana stand.

Remind me, Cliff. Have you lived with Mana before?

James

i And lo, He didst travel around, even unto Pinner. And he saith "useth ye not thy glass without anything stuck to it, for that is bad"

ii And He came upon a Bituminous Compound, and saw that it was Good, and He stucketh the Compound to His Glass, in His Name

iii And certain unpleasant people saith "O Lord, we do not hold with thine Holy sticky Compound, and Glass, for it doth Ring"

iv And he smote these people with His Glass and Iron and Bituminous Compound, and went Forth unto North Wales, for it was very rainy, and the wind bloweth something Awful.

v And (cont Psalm 94)

Hmm,
Mana , I guess you have to have owned it to make a valuable comment, and would assume that if you owned it you found it beneficial to your system ? or do you just buy kit cause someone said so ?

I would therefor assume that most are talking bollocks or have some butt plug stuck tight, get a grip guys if you have only heard a demo shut up, you cannot judge another system in strange room and blame the racks, if you have used it what changed your mind ? the wife ? peer pressure ? did a big boy make you do it ?

Some people here used to use Mana, now they dont.
I think, that it making a big enough difference for them to use it in the first place says enough, and some others are being just plain arse and being in there with the negative vibe's , hypocrisy springs to mind.
To have said so much positive and then turn negative ? did someone take the puppys bone ?

As for the discusion over Mana shutting down and some not getting paid ?
I would have assumed that is none of our buisness, and for those getting involved in others matters is a matter of brown nosing, who do you prefer the taste of monkey boy ?

Anyway,
I like Mana supports, I buy them second hand, and I think they make a big difference for the better, Sound organisation and Target are nothing more than a convenient place to put your kit, and sound quite poor in comparison.

I do think that using basic kit and cable from B&Q aint going to show a huge amount of difference, particulary if you speakers are shown as much interest in placement as kit inside any old furniture.
I personaly would feel quite foolish trying a Mana sound frame, if my system resided in a sideboard with both speakers wired with mains cable plonked behind the settee or on the floor next to the fireplace.

Steve

poor

Mana , I guess you have to have owned it to make a valuable comment, and would assume that if you owned it you found it beneficial to your system ? or do you just buy kit cause someone said so ?

I bought it because someone I trusted "said so". (I'll never do that again;-)

Some people here used to use Mana, now they dont.
I think, that it making a big enough difference for them to use it in the first place says enough, and some others are being just plain arse and being in there with the negative vibe's , hypocrisy springs to mind.
To have said so much positive and then turn negative ? did someone take the puppys bone ?


Everyone's entitled to a mistake. What appears impressive at first becomes tiring over the long-haul despite the opinions of "experts."

IMO, Mana does many things right but a few things wrong. For me, those few things wrong outweighed the many things right.

FWIW, I started with two pieces and ended up with eleven after Pinner advised adding more would "cure" my complaint with the sound (it didn't, I finally woke up and sold all my Mana which did cure the problem).

I personaly would feel quite foolish trying a Mana sound frame, if my system resided in a sideboard with both speakers wired with mains cable plonked behind the settee or on the floor next to the fireplace.


Interesting comment...I found quite the opposite. Personally, I found Mana strongly influenced the sound of anything placed upon it (even a portable radio)...anything's possible though.

regards,

dave

IMO, Mana does many things right but a few things wrong. For me, those few things wrong outweighed the many things right.

Concur. I found the same, but was accused of being an idiot who couldn't set it up properly.

Let's have a defunct stand war, that would be fun.

Complete the following tie-breaker in 15 words or fewer: I prefer listening to music on wax cylinder because...

As for the discusion over Mana shutting down and some not getting paid ?
I would have assumed that is none of our buisness, and for those getting involved in others matters is a matter of brown nosing, who do you prefer the taste of monkey boy ?

I am personally aware of a number of members of this forum who have paid Mana Audio quite large sums of money for product that has not been delivered. They have received no credible explanation from the company as to why this is so and requests for their money to be refunded have been completely ignored. They are now involved in legal proceedings to recover their money. There is no mention on the Mana site that it is anything other than business as usual so it is therefore necessary to warn others of the extreme risk involved in dealing with this company. This thread serves that purpose.

Tony.

I have to say that we're very happy with our Mana stuff (2 SoundFrames under the LP12, SoundBases under speakers). It seems to perform as intended. and is very worthwhile.

Cliff's view I can understand. At least part of it stems from hearing the Mana room at Bristol 2000 -- I also spent some time in that room and it really was truly fucking awful -- I don't believe I can put that too strongly. Why this was so is very much open to interpretation -- there were a number of factors mitigating against that particular room and system performing well -- but that's 20/20 hindsight. I'd say they took a number of risks, (maybe a good thing in itself) but got bitten on all of them.

It was a long way from how Mana can perform in a real-world context though. Not that it's easy; the product seems to be aimed at an established adept market -- instructions border on useless, in practice. If ever a product really needed a proper setup video, it's this one.

If there are legal proceedings going on then both Mana and the individuals involved would be stupid to say anything relating to the case on this or any other fora as it might prejudice their legal position.

The deafening silence is therefore to be expected.

Let's have a defunct stand war, that would be fun.

Complete the following tie-breaker in 15 words or fewer: I prefer listening to music on wax cylinder because...

Mana, Mana, tekel, parsin

(Dan.5:25, slightly modified)

Complete the following tie-breaker in 15 words or fewer: I prefer listening to music on wax cylinder because...

... when I close my eyes the speakers disappear, and the silence is inky black

Complete the following tie-breaker in 15 words or fewer: I prefer listening to music on wax cylinder because...

Indian baccy,
Makes Watson's voice sound like God
And my jaw drops, thus.

Fox,

I thought a Haiku was supposed to have some reference to the seasons and had some kind of rules on the number of syllables in each of the three lines. Having said that I can't do them. We had a team meeting a few months back where we were each supposed to present what we had been doing in the previous month as a Haiku. I just couldn't get my head round it.