Apologies for the slightly out of focus picture

http://www.iml.dircon.co.uk/hifi/lancaster.jpg

First impressions are favourable, but I need to experiment with positioning and drive them with something other than an iPod into a Teac midi system before saying much more.

They look really cute, though, and sound pretty good just dumped into position.

-- Ian

First track played has to be by Motorhead: Bomber.

Anyone who has speakers five times the size of the telly has just GOT to be alright!

Rob.

Nice, Ian.

Are these Tannoys old or new ones that just look like vintage Tannoys?

BTW, I have a friend with old Tannoys and they put many new speakers to shame, especially with dynamic music. Most speakers sound hopelessly boring and polite after listening to them.

Joe

Nice bit of hoovering too. Respect

Are these Tannoys old or new ones that just look like vintage Tannoys?

These are vintage, but very nicely refurbished. 15" dual concentric driver.


BTW, I have a friend with old Tannoys and they put many new speakers to shame, especially with dynamic music. Most speakers sound hopelessly boring and polite after listening to them.

Yes, I think I'm going to enjoy these. Not as good as the huge Westminsters, but definitely a serious speaker.

I haven't yet managed to work out how to get the grilles off without causing damage, any Tannoyistas know what the trick is? I want to get a proper look at the drivers.

-- Ian

cool.

You can just make out the massive drivers through the covers.... they looks serious..... and nostalgic :-)

Don't know what kind of music you're into but would be interested to know if speakers such as these do the business on reggae.

Bet that glass-top table rattles!

Cheers

Rich - who once sat on a glass-top table at speed - nasty!

Excellent stuff Ian, are they wireless? ;)

I listen to lots of reggae, and lots of other things too, jazz, extreme noise terror, electronica, "world" music of all kinds.

These don't go as deep as you might think given the size, although they go deep enough for me if they're close to the wall. Not sure what the quoted specs are, but I'd guess the -3dB point in my room is around 35Hz. For really subterranean dub you need a pair of Westminsters (no, that isn't me in the picture, I just grabbed it from Google):

http://galerie.hifi-forum.de/data/media/10/100_08190.jpg

-- Ian

Excellent stuff Ian, are they wireless? ;)

Very nearly. 47 Labs OTA cable - a single strand of 0.4mm copper per channel. Easy to hide under the carpet, as you can see from the picture.

-- Ian

Bet that glass-top table rattles!

Spot the loud listener :-)

At the volumes I listen at, not a problem. One of the nice things about these speakers is that they sound very full and dynamic even when played fairly quietly.

-- Ian

I haven't yet managed to work out how to get the grilles off without causing damage, any Tannoyistas know what the trick is? I want to get a proper look at the drivers.

-- Ian

I don't think you can take the grille off. You need to remove all the screws at the back panel, then undo four nuts which hold the Tannoy dual concentric driver on the front baffle, in order to look at the drivers. It is quite straightforward to do.

Cheers Hon, that makes sense.

The room is pretty "live" at the moment (I've recently moved in, so it's minimally furnished and lacking bookcases stuffed full of books and records), but I think this is working quite well with these Tannoys, which are sounding very fast and lively, whilst having the low end threat only big speakers possess. I was worried they might sound a bit heavy and one-noted, but this is certainly not the case. They also have tremendous midrange clarity, voices are excellent. The balance is slightly off centre because of a sofa positioned next to the left hand speaker, but that's easily fixed. But I can't really be bothered to shift anything around ATM, I'm having too much fun listening to them. Nice.

-- Ian

Ian

I listened to a pair of smaller Tannoy Chatsworth with 12" Gold driven by some vintage Layfette 550 valve amps, the sound was just stunning. The midrange is nearly as good as LS3/5a, but the Chatsworth has bass, especially they were placed a few inches from the wall. The owner uses a pair of DIY Fostex ribbon supertweeter with the Chatsworth and they open up the sound quite a lot.

Hon

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y184/Misc_hk/ResizeofJL010.jpg

Ian, I think they look ugly and sound dreadful. As you are a good friend I can take them away for you (even if it does cause my wife to divorce me!) :D.

Glad you like them.

Papier-mache never quite caught on among amplifier designers.

Ian, I think they look ugly and sound dreadful. As you are a good friend I can take them away for you (even if it does cause my wife to divorce me!) :D.

They're not a lot bigger than what you already have. Reasonably priced secondhand, too, these were around £1K. I reckon you should get yourself a pair :-)

-- Ian

Nice, Ian. What are you using them with?

Looking good Ian. Glad the house move has gone through OK.

When do we get to come over for a listen?

When do we get to come over for a listen?

The place is still in the midst of being decorated, and furniture being delivered. Give me a few weeks and I'll hold a nerdathon.


Nice, Ian. What are you using them with?


An iPod into a Teac micro. Eventually, the turntable into the Gaincard, when I get round to moving the vinyl. Don't think I'll bother with a CD player, that can stay in London. That way I can use the phono stage direct into the Gaincard, and eliminate the preamp from the chain.

-- Ian

An iPod into a Teac micro. Eventually, the turntable into the Gaincard, when I get round to moving the vinyl. Don't think I'll bother with a CD player, that can stay in London. That way I can use the phono stage direct into the Gaincard, and eliminate the preamp from the chain.

I think I’d have gone the other way, i.e. Tannoys in a retro tube system with the Leak 20 and the 47 Labs stuff into the DIY Lens-ish single driver speakers. Dunno which system I’d want to inflict CD on ;)

They look like an excellent pair of Tannoys. I have envy.

Tony.

The Leak will drive the Jordans fine, and I like the idea of the smallest power amp imaginable driving these big Tannoys :-) But it would work either way, so I just tossed a coin in my head.

-- Ian

The man photographed with the Westminsters should of spent a little less on speakers and a little more on his clothes.

My other half just said... 'nice living room shame about the ugly brown boxes'

nice telly though ;-) My SBLs are too big and ugly according to her also..

hi ian, nice speakers-enjoy. i would really recommend putting 3 michell tender feet cones under each-really works well with my large boxes! i met ian at the walrus tannoy open day and 'extreme electronic noise' only begins to describe some of the discs he played!!!! what was that thing about nurses and open wounds?

nice one Ian. they look great!

Cheers
Chris

Very nice,

Yes grills are fixed on the early models.

Who refurbished the drivers ?
Steve

These don't go as deep as you might think given the size, although they go deep enough for me if they're close to the wall. Not sure what the quoted specs are, but I'd guess the -3dB point in my room is around 35Hz. For really subterranean dub you need a pair of Westminsters (no, that isn't me in the picture, I just grabbed it from Google):

Hello again,

The Westminsters need a really huge room , and for me they dont do subterranean bass, they roll off too much at the bottom end. I think too many think because the driver and cab are so big it will go low.
remember its only a 15" two way in a horn loaded cab.

A better option from tannoy more suited to dub would be the DMT215 which has a 15" dual and 15" bass in a soffit type studio cab.
The second driver can be configured for bass only, giving a proper three way type of sound and bass, (though these also do not do subteranean bass).
I think for subteranean you need a speaker capable of a genuine 20hz flat response, not -12db at 40hz with resonance helping fillout the bottom end.

The Westminsters need a really huge room , and for me they dont do subterranean bass, they roll off too much at the bottom end. I think too many think because the driver and cab are so big it will go low.
remember its only a 15" two way in a horn loaded cab.

I've heard them sounding fantastic hard up against the rear wall in a tiny room, which is the kind of environment you'd often find them used in in Japan.

I think Tannoy claim a -6dB point of 18Hz for them. (I'm talking about the modern Westminster Royals here, no idea about vintage Westminsters.) I think they're as full range as most people need.


what was that thing about nurses and open wounds?


That would have been something by Nurse With Wound, but I can't remember what I played that day. It gave me the idea to get a pair of Tannoys, though...

-- Ian

Hi Sideshow,

I heard them (the latest model, well used for demos) in quite a large spacious open plan room, driven with Classe's latest reference CD and amplifier set up, I think the cable's were Nordost.

We had to go to the back of the demo room to hear any real low bass, which was not quite as prominent as I would have liked, from the listening position the mid bass to treble were more prominent, more like a PA type sound when Led zep was played, but of course better quality and superbly coupled to the room, ( to be honest I was not confident the room or amplification were doing the speakers much justice).
I am quite into low frequencies, and was described by one at the demo as the guy who knows about bass performance, and duly some dub was played and I was disapointed, and my views were agreed upon by the Tannoy rep and dealer.
Most of the demo went superbly, excellent dynamics, midband and a superb speaker no doubt, but at that demo the bass just didnt have the weight/extension/definition I hoped to hear.
In another smaller room at the same Demo were a smaller Tannoy prestige Kensington, which were giving a much better and fuller bass performance than the flagship.

I do not think these are easy to set up, and I felt the 15" driver couldnt quite do the mid and bass together without sacrifice, the DMT 215 definetly sound like there is more weight and depth to the bass when set up as a three way.
I also have heard the 15" lancaster and 12" Balamoral, in my previous home, and also came to the conclusion that the Tannoy D700 had a warmer fuller bottom end.

In my own experience large speakers can work quite well in small rooms , being able to drive the room better, something I have also heard REL say about larger subs driving small rooms in pressure mode.

I guess I may have to concur the demo did not let me hear the Westminster at its best, though I do have some reservations about it giving genuine low end weight, now if it was +-2db at 18hz without room reinforcement ?

Anyway I would like to hear them again at some point, and I have some regret's at not taking the plunge when a pair of their smaller brothers were available in a local store.

Steve

Its my view that Tannoy take the traditional approach to bass drive units that you saw more prevelanly in the 70's. (I am speaking of their larger traditional speakers rather than modern budget ones).

That is to say that they use large 15" and 12" bass units to produce mid bass frequency, where other manufacturers might use a 6.5" bass unit.

What I am trying to say in a very poor way, is that you will get more breadth and generous sound from 40hz +, but not necessarily lower frequency extension.

I suppose an analogy might be a bass player playing a bass guitar through a cabinet with a 15" drive unit and one with a 6.5" bass unit. They could both be engineered to provide the same frequency range, but the larger drive unit will sound fuller, and distort less.

You could add a sub... which makes me wonder, do people in general add subs because their speakers are lacking the lowest frequencies, or because they feel their speakers are sounding thin within more modest frequencies?.. or maybe both..or maybe its an AV driven exercise for many..

Actually, there was one thing I wanted to say..

you might want to check the crossover at some point mate, to see if it is still using the original caps.

After 20+ years the originals will have lost a lot of life.

Certainly changing the caps in my speakers (which are of a similar age) made a dramatic improvement, well worth the fifty quid or so it cost.

With a bit of luck a previous owner might have done the task for you! ;)

Just a thought Ian, but didn't you mention to me that you have a half completed WAD KEL84 amp sitting around ?

Could be just the job for a sensitive pair of speakers played at moderate volume.

Actually, there was one thing I wanted to say..

you might want to check the crossover at some point mate, to see if it is still using the original caps.

After 20+ years the originals will have lost a lot of life.

Certainly changing the caps in my speakers (which are of a similar age) made a dramatic improvement, well worth the fifty quid or so it cost.

With a bit of luck a previous owner might have done the task for you! ;)

All been done, a full refurb job.


Just a thought Ian, but didn't you mention to me that you have a half completed WAD KEL84 amp sitting around ?

Could be just the job for a sensitive pair of speakers played at moderate volume.


I do, but I'm not short of amps. One day I'll finish it, when I can be bothered :-)

-- Ian

Tannoy can teach Linn a thing or 2 about product support too. They still sell all the spare parts to keep these old drivers running - cones, surrounds, tweeter diapragms etc for models about 50 years old!

They look really cute, Ian

And I thought it was just your taste in music.

Oh well. Hope you are going to be feeding them vinyl Ian - somewhat more in keeping I feel.

Like the fireplace.

http://www.iml.dircon.co.uk/hifi/lancaster.jpg

Far too small. We shall be expecting properly LARGE corner cabs come the autumn.

I like to think of them as Kans, as seen from the POV of a very tiny person.

Anyway, unlike Kans, they're sounding very splendid. I think these are an excellent buy.

One day the enclosures will magically grow, of that I'm quite sure...

-- Ian

I like to think of them as Kans, as seen from the POV of a very tiny person.
Aha! A Proper Gentleman's Kans. I can see that...

Why not just add a flush fitting baffle to those two alcoves?

Probably cheaper to get someone to build some GRF enclosures. And easier to remove if I ever decide to sell the house. Would probably work pretty well though.

-- Ian

Baffles is a great idea. If they were properly thought out and executed, they might turn out to be more manageable than GRFs, and sound better...

Finally got the turntable set up, and brought some vinyl to play. Lovely.

Positioning is similar to the original photo, but slightly closer to the side walls and with more toe-in, and pulled slightly forward to get the front baffles in front of the fireplace. This positioning doesn't give the deepest bass, but it really opens up the midrange. I'm really enjoying these.

In case anyone's interested, the latest (April) Hi-Fi World is a Tannoy special, with rave reviews of the Yorkminster and the Westminster Royal by Noel Keywood, who correctly spots that they sound about as good as it gets, and also measure exceptionally well. Which is nice.

-- Ian

IIRC, Paul Messenger runs a pair of Tannoy DC drivers installed directly into the walls, which is fine I guess if you are on good terms with whoever is on the other side of the wall....... :)

Heard some of the new little tannoy prestige jobbies the other day. Put some music on and thought after trying different tracks "AAARGH! Turn it off it's so coloured! Where's the upper mid? what's going on?" Although I thought that the dynamics were good and timing was excellent.

Then I went out of the room and had a cup of tea and some food.

Then I went back in and to cut a long story short I ended up getting b*ll*cked by the wife for staying in the shop all afternoon listening to them. I couldn't help putting more music on. I thought they were really great.

Ian, a belated congratulations for Hastings and Lancasters.

Cheers Alex.

Further tests suggest either no toe in at all or a lot of toe in, so they cross a foot or so in front of the listening position, is best. Since the latter looks daft, the former it is.

I'm still struck by the clarity these things have. They may be vintage but they're very high resolution. Through my Harbeths and Jordans, the Ortofon Rohmann and the Denon DL103 carts seemed much of a muchness to me, small differences but nothing important; the Tannoys reveal very clear differences between the two, and the Rohmann easily wins, it's better in every way.

They also clearly expose the differences between recordings, and this is not always such a good thing when playing lo-fi stuff, but I can live with it.

-- Ian

They also clearly expose the differences between recordings, and this is not always such a good thing when playing lo-fi stuff, but I can live with it.
That's got to be a good thing. You wouldn't want any audiophoolish type recordings sneaking in by the back door.
You'll be hearing differences between amps next ;)

LOL.

Actually, I was thinking I made the right decision to drive these with the best, lowest distortion amp I have (the Gaincard) rather than a valve amp, but I didn't want to start a war with the toobheads :-)

-- Ian

Through my Harbeths and Jordans, the Ortofon Rohmann and the Denon DL103 carts seemed much of a muchness to me, small differences but nothing important; the Tannoys reveal very clear differences between the two, and the Rohmann easily wins, it's better in every way.

-- Ian

Ahem......I'm saying nothing ;)

Touché :-)

-- Ian

Heard the Westminster Royals some time back at the Tannoy plant. They remain the best speakers I've ever heard, bar none. I also did a couple of shows with a guy who was reproducing GRF and Autograph cabs. No way I could accomodate a pair, even if I could afford them, so I decided to find out more about the other, smaller 'Prestige Series' speakers.

I called Tannoy and asked if they could send me info on the current Prestige series. The person who answered clearly hadn't a clue what I was on about and sent me brochures for everything but the Prestige series.

P'raps I didn't sound posh enough..

Mull

You probably didn't sound Japanese enough...

The UK doesn't seem to be Tannoy's major concern when it comes to selling the Prestige range.

-- Ian

The UK doesn't seem to be Tannoy's major concern when it comes to selling the Prestige range.
Yup, no shortage of the behemoth variety round here. Along with Altec and JBL, Tannoy forms the Holy Trinity of Japanese speaker uber nerdery.

Ian

Nice - are they real "full range" by modern standards?

I'm still struck by the clarity these things have. They may be vintage but they're very high resolution.

Old 'speaker solidarity dude. I'm still thinking that the last 50 years of audio development has been about black vs silver vs brushed aluminium vs champagne - oh, and the crucial "best" LED colour - green, red, blue...

...this is not always such a good thing when playing lo-fi stuff..

With the ESL I'm finding that records that I'm consigned to the categories of too scratchy, too poorly recorded, old and tired etc are played - I can hear all the crap even more but the dynamics of the music are so much more engaging I filter them out. Even an old Art Tatum mono solo piano record (recorded at a party in LA) sounds great.

My only bugbear now is shouting at engineers when the mixing gets weird - half the drum kit far left, the other half far right etc. I now understand the usefulness of the "mono" switch.

...but I didn't want to start a war with the toobheads

I think I'm siding with the toobheads. It's odd - I feel I'm being drawn into some kind of weird mid-west psuedo christian personality cult a la Waco - and yet it seems right - it IS the way and the light, and I know I would have been more balanced and reasonable about it in the past.. ...but it's clear to me now that THE LORD put thermionic technology at our disposal for A REASON - and all that intelligent design stuff makes sense now... ...and he made the birds, the fishes, the 6550s, the KT88s and the EL84s.

Although, of course, "Muddy Waters invented electricity."

Jonathan.

Hallelujah, brother.

Nice - are they real "full range" by modern standards?

Not really at the low end, horn loading and a much bigger cabinet would be required for that. They've got some of that big speaker bass welly though, enough to be going on with :-)

The really nice thing about big speakers like this, more than the lowest bass extension IMO, is the scale and dynamic ease they have. Playing live jazz quartets especially, they have real life and believability. Small speakers just can't do this, IME.


I think I'm siding with the toobheads. It's odd - I feel I'm being drawn into some kind of weird mid-west psuedo christian personality cult a la Waco - and yet it seems right - it IS the way and the light, and I know I would have been more balanced and reasonable about it in the past.. ...but it's clear to me now that THE LORD put thermionic technology at our disposal for A REASON - and all that intelligent design stuff makes sense now... ...and he made the birds, the fishes, the 6550s, the KT88s and the EL84s.

Bah, false prophets. The ONE TRUE LORD, WORSHIP NO FALSE IDOLS, PEACE BE UPON HIM is strictly an op-amp kind of entity.

Having said that, I've heard ESL57s being driven in a huge space with a selection of low-powered vintage toob amps (Quad, Leak, Dynaco, Rogers) and sounding really exceptional. Maybe I should be a polytheist.

-- Ian

Well having dithered on both sides of the fence - and enjoyed it - I've come down on the horn-loading-driven-by-opamps side. Very much for the 'dynamic ease' thing, really. And the ability to slouch anywhere at home and not have the sound disappear.

I don't think you would have had an arguement Ian! (about Tubes)

I for one can fully accept that a full 47 labs set up might sound better (in many regards) than a £350 vintage Leak amp.

Its not the same as saying 'solid state is better than valves' - not that I'd predict you to say something so erronously all encompasing!

Ian

Polytheism it is then, or some kind of Guardian/Radio 4 special middle class tolorance thing.

Not really at the low end, horn loading and a much bigger cabinet would be required for that.

Sorry - should have been clearer - I read the stuff on the bass, I just wondered how high they go. ESL quoted at 45Hz to 18 Khz... I beg Peter Walkers pardon - 45 cycles per second to 18 K cycles per second... ..I was wondering if 18 KHz was a previoulsy accepted limit in many older 'speakers as it has been suggested here before that most record cutting lathes don't go above 18 KHz due to various resonace issues, whereas the 20-20K CD thing, or above if SACD and super-tweater etc is a bit more of a recent standard.

I can't actually hear above 20 KHz (or even 18 KHz) - but have been pursuaded in the past that haviong those frequencies present can make some instruments sound more natural. Probably some weird in room or bone vibrating thing going on. Or I imagined it.

Despite Macus's vicarious need for additional vintage 'speaker threads - I have nothing so say except I'm a happy bunny. Maybe we should start a thread on good shag? (For our 50's "fighter pilot" style straight pipes I hasten to add!) I do find that the harder shag often gets caught on the twiddly bits in arran sweaters and benchmark brogues.

Hastings sounds like just the right place for a chap to retire to and contemplate his Tannoys.

Jonathan

Ah, sorry, it's not my lower end you were asking about.

Not sure what the published specs of the DC drivers are, and, given my great age, I probably can't hear anything above the mid-bass region anyway :-)

I suspect they measure well enough up to 20KHz with not much happening above that. When I heard a demo of the Westminster Royals, they were running them with a pair of adjustable Tannoy supertweeters designed specifically for the Prestige range. I preferred the Westminsters with the supertweeters completely turned off, which is handy, as that saves the £800 asking price.

-- Ian

Martin

And the ability to slouch anywhere at home and not have the sound disappear.

This is the only real problem with the ESL. I think at some point in the future the '63 and '988 will need trying out - as both claim better dispersion - although some die-hard original ESL users claim that both are at a price.

I see a couple of years mucking about with valves first though.

Thanks again for the excellent hospitality and introducing me to these little beauties (and Tony and Marcus for egging me on.)

Jonathan
c/o cloud nine, Yorkshire

Having now seen the "interesting" new thread in the off-topic area I will refrain from any comments on your bottom end, or indeed good shag.

Neither the 63 nor the 988 is worth changing over to because of dispersion.

I preferred the Westminsters with the supertweeters completely turned off, which is handy, as that saves the £800 asking price.
So you could hear the difference with/without a driver that only operates outside the human hearing range?

How does that work then?

Markus

I will take your word for it for at least two years.

Is there another reason to change? This concentric point source business?

Jonathan

Jonathan, I have never done a direct comparison, but I'm pretty sure I prefer the 57 to the 63. The 57 has a directness, an immediacy that the 63 has lacked whenever I heard it in stock form (I have heard two modified versions of the 63 which I thought were a step in the right direction). Again not having done a direct comparison, the 988 gets a bit closer than the 63 IMO and also beats its forerunner in the rhythm stakes.

The 57 knows how to perform a magic trick: close-coupling the listener to the musicians. As you are finding out, the trick works best when you listen pretty much directly on axis. The 63 and 988 offer a somewhat larger listening area, but still not enough to approach the "slouch anywhere in the room and get inexorably sucked into the music" effect. No dipole speaker I've ever heard has been able to perform that neat trick, you need speakers with a very different polar response. Choose your poison.

Get the 57 à point, though, and you'll have trouble taking other speakers seriously. Like others here, I was seriously tempted by Martin's offer.

Thanks Marcus - interesting comparison.

Having seen both "57" and "Charlie Parker" in the last half a minute I will now log off, switch off, tune in etc.

Cheers,
Jonathan

Get the 57 à point, though, and you'll have trouble taking other speakers seriously.Spot on, and I'm glad I've had that pleasure at home. One day, when I have enough space and time to do them justice, I will probably have another pair. And big glow-bottles to drive 'em.

I'd agree with the coments on the '63 in comparison, too; it's shades of slightly different, but definitely not cut-and-dried better.

..I was wondering if 18 KHz was a previoulsy accepted limit in many older 'speakers as it has been suggested here before that most record cutting lathes don't go above 18 KHz due to various resonace issues, whereas the 20-20K CD thing, or above if SACD and super-tweater etc is a bit more of a recent standard.



Its been my recent experience of looking at frequency response charts of MOST modern tweeters that they are flatish up to about 16Khz, and then drop sharply, losing most of the plot by about 18khz.

My experience of Tannoy dual concentrics (and many other horns) is that they begin to roll off about 14Khz, giving some output to about 16khz.

The problem with following published stats is that so many of them are disengenous. Manufacturers would have you believe speakers are flat from 20hz to 22khz!

My personal belief in regard of the growth of supertweeters - is that they are 'filling in' where the tweeter begins to roll off - (well within the hearing range) and giving a higher output in the 14-18khz band.

There have been tweeters around for at least 30 years (that I know of) that give good output up to 18khz.

Your guess is as good as mine in regard of why they werent commonly used. I suspect a combination of trend and public demand.

This isnt a criticism of horn speakers (you must be kidding) of course

All IMH amateur O.

just wondered how high they go. ESL quoted at 45Hz to 18 Khz... I beg Peter Walkers pardon - 45 cycles per second to 18 K cycles per second... ..I was wondering if 18 KHz was a previoulsy accepted limit in many older 'speakers as it has been suggested here before that most record cutting lathes don't go above 18 KHz due to various resonace issues, whereas the 20-20K CD thing, or above if SACD and super-tweater etc is a bit more of a recent standard. I think you'd find that the 18k limit is a combination of the grille, and the step-up transformer in conjunction with the pure-capacitance load, rather than the panel itself. Even then , I suspect the panel's response is a lot cleaner than anything driven by a coil, a magnet and brute force.

And I certainly didn't care if that's where the axe fell (and not because I'm CD-based) because it's not the extremes that make or break good musical communication. It's the bit in the middle that matters - and for that, the 57s have few peers.

SS, cool looking lounge there.

Jonathan, I have never done a direct comparison, but I'm pretty sure I prefer the 57 to the 63. The 57 has a directness, an immediacy that the 63 has lacked whenever I heard it in stock form (I have heard two modified versions of the 63 which I thought were a step in the right direction). Again not having done a direct comparison, the 988 gets a bit closer than the 63 IMO and also beats its forerunner in the rhythm stakes.


Hmm, I'm not sure I agree; 63's do many things better than 57's, imho.

In any case, Ian's alcoves appear tailor made for 63's.

So you could hear the difference with/without a driver that only operates outside the human hearing range?

How does that work then?

I assume adding a second tweeter, which is effectively all one is doing, is bound to have an audible effect on just about any speaker (supertweeters do not operate entirely > 20KHz AFAICT).

-- Ian

In any case, Ian's alcoves appear tailor made for 63's.

Wouldn't be able to get enough space behind them.

-- Ian

Interesting discussion about supertweeters. For all I know, they are filling in the top end , but, I understand that many people report improvements in the bass...

My own personal totally unsubstantiated theory on this, is that the higher frequencies beat with other parts of the frequency spectrum, giving a better defined and more complete reproduction of bass instruments, including all the high harmonics, (the squeaky bits off the strings etc..)

Having never heard any supertweeter, I feel that my ideas are totally unbiased :)

Mull

I also have a pair of Lancasters and I'm looking for an amplifier to match.Any

recommendations are welcome.

Wouldn't be able to get enough space behind them.

-- Ian

It might just work if you used the Tannoy's as stands for the 63's. ;-)

I also have a pair of Lancasters and I'm looking for an amplifier to match.Any

recommendations are welcome.


a big fat juicy valve amp

:)



budget?

They're very easy to drive. Any good amp would do, just avoid anything that produces a lot of audible hiss or hum.

-- Ian

Originally posted by Merlin. "Why not just add a flush fitting baffle to those two alcoves?"

And here's one I made earlier......


http://www.saturn-sound.com/history/the%20hi-fi%20section.htm

Its been my recent experience of looking at frequency response charts of MOST modern tweeters that they are flatish up to about 16Khz, and then drop sharply, losing most of the plot by about 18khz.

My experience of Tannoy dual concentrics (and many other horns) is that they begin to roll off about 14Khz, giving some output to about 16khz.


To resurrect this thread, I've just spotted a cheap ex-dem pair of Tannoy ST50 supertweeters, which should be with me tomorrow. They come with crossover adjustments optimisable for all Tannoy DCs, and Tannoy suggest 14kHz and 93dB sensitivity for 15" Lancasters, which implies that bottleneck's estimate above, of a HF roll off above 14kHz, is almost certainly about right.

I wasn't really looking to add these, but they were cheap enough to make it a no-risk deal if I decide to sell them on again. I probably can't hear anything above 14kHz anyway, but it'll be interesting to do the comparison.

-- Ian

Will be interested to hear what you think.

I thought hard about the Tannoy ST range of supertweeters when I was adding a pair of tweeters to my own speakers.

Like you I'm not convinced of the arguements in favour of frequencies we can't hear, but adding a tweeter if your main speakers have an early roll off seems like a good idea. Its all conjecture on my part of course.

I liked the flexibility in choosing the crossover point of the ST supertweeters, and combined with being the same make as your main speakers it seems like an excellent choice.

I read the online brochure for the ST's when I was shopping for them, and there is advice about placement on top of vintage tannoys. They seemed to suggest that to time align them you need to line them up with the throat of the horn in the dual concentric.

Lining up my own tweeters, I also found that right near the back near the throat of the horn made them integrate well.

Anyway, hope it sounds great.

Cheers
Chris

I read the online brochure for the ST's when I was shopping for them, and there is advice about placement on top of vintage tannoys. They seemed to suggest that to time align them you need to line them up with the throat of the horn in the dual concentric.

Helpfully, Tannoy give precise alignment instructions for all their speakers, current and past. Apparently the supertweeters need to be exactly 130mm from the front baffle on 15" Lancasters in order to integrate properly. Unfortunately, this will mean removing both the Buddah and the Tivoli radio I currently have on top of the speakers :-)

We can do some nerdy in-circuit/out-of-circuit A/B tests when you visit, when I did this at Walrus's Westminster open day I preferred them without, but we were sitting unnaturally close to the speakers.

-- Ian

cool, should be fun!

I assume adding a second tweeter, which is effectively all one is doing, is bound to have an audible effect on just about any speaker (supertweeters do not operate entirely > 20KHz AFAICT).

-- Ian Right. And some speakers with the supertweeter built in roll in well inside the audible range, e.g., my Linn Akurate start to roll in at 11 kHz. And in any case it will never be a brick wall roll-in. BTW, I wouldn't be without them now I've had them.

Well, having played with the supertweeters most of the day, there's no doubt they're audible. The effect seems entirely positive too, especially to the intelligibility of voices. It's not a night and day difference, my jaw has not hit the floor, and I doubt very much they would have any point at all with speakers which don't have early HF rolloff, but they do work well in this application. The kind of improvement you mostly notice when you switch them out of circuit rather than put them in. I was getting very good sound without them, but I think they're a nice improvement for not too much money (new, they seem awfully expensive for what they are, however).

-- Ian

So, you're getting more air and blackness now. More space between the (female) vocals and other instruments. Excellent, but are they improving your 3D imaging?

Snigger.

Tell you what, my polyphony thunderstorm moment is rather magnificent on these.

-- Ian

Snigger.

Tell you what, my polyphony thunderstorm moment is rather magnificent on these.

-- Ian
Good though it all looks, I have to know... where did the poster come from?

Steve.

From a local shop.

-- Ian

For local people?

Hi Ian (Sideshowbob),

How are you getting on the Tannoy Lancasters? What are are your thoughts after a few months of usage?

Dean

hi Dean, they rock, I love em. I'm going to get Autograph cabinets made some time next year, but I'm not feeling any great hardship with them as they are. Come and have a listen, you're welcome any time.

-- Ian

Hi Ian,

Thanks for the reply. Autograph cabs would be interesting. I emailed Peter Empson (Noteworthy Audio) about high sensitivity speakers. He had a room at the Heathrow show 2005 Easter time. He had some GRF & Autographs on display. These were made by a company called Octave Audio. The cabinets cost around £12000 to £17000 depending on finish.

http://www.noteworthyaudio.co.uk/Heathrow0405.html

I understand Big Ears Audio can make them as well.

I will have to take you up on your offer of a listen.

Dean

Big Ears is where I got these from. He builds GRF Autograph cabinets for £3-£4K, which is the budget I'm looking at. £12K to £17K is definitely too steep!

-- Ian

Hi Ian,

£3-£4K is not bad a price. Have you seen any examples in the flesh? There was a picture (GRFs) on the Big Ears website but he is redesigning the site.

Dean

Not seen them in the flesh, but have seen the photos he used to have up on the site. I've spoken to a few people who know him, and he seems well-regarded among Tannoyistas. These Lancasters are certainly in very good condition, and he was a nice guy to deal with. My plan is either to use the drivers (monitor reds) currently in the Lancasters or just do a straight swap for Autograph cabinets + another pair of monitor reds, I think he'd be willing to do either. The drivers on their own are anything up to £1K a pair. Just before he started redesigning his site I noticed the price of Lancasters like mine had suddenly gone up to about £1450...

-- Ian

Ah, sorry, it's not my lower end you were asking about.

Not sure what the published specs of the DC drivers are, and, given my great age, I probably can't hear anything above the mid-bass region anyway :-)

I suspect they measure well enough up to 20KHz with not much happening above that. When I heard a demo of the Westminster Royals, they were running them with a pair of adjustable Tannoy supertweeters designed specifically for the Prestige range. I preferred the Westminsters with the supertweeters completely turned off, which is handy, as that saves the £800 asking price.

-- Ian

£800 thats cheap RRP for super tweeters is £1,200 and the cables cost another £200 plus

I use the super tweeters with the Turnberrys and have also used them with the Yorkminsters and I like the way everything seems tighter

also in the thread I see the two postions you like best for the speakers are flat or loads of toe in

have used most of the range and now sticking with Turnberrys lots of toe in seems to be the best postion for them in my room

I called Tannoy and asked if they could send me info on the current Prestige series. The person who answered clearly hadn't a clue what I was on about and sent me brochures for everything but the Prestige series.

P'raps I didn't sound posh enough..

Mull


Drop me a PM with your address and can send you a copy of the "posh" prestige speakers if you want one no problem

the range start at £2,200

ian

we're expecting sprog 2 (little girl, another) late december.

would love to meet for a beer

pm me on zg and we'll sort something out.

atb

£800 thats cheap RRP for super tweeters is £1,200 and the cables cost another £200 plus

That's the ST200s. Mine are ST50s. Exactly the same tweeter unit, not in a wooden case. RRP is about £600 I think. I got them for £300 or so. Cables are just the same speaker cable as I use for the main speakers, there's absolutely no need to buy "special" cables for them.

-- Ian

ian

we're expecting sprog 2 (little girl, another) late december.

would love to meet for a beer

pm me on zg and we'll sort something out.



Sounds like a cunning plan.

-- Ian