Well having found an interesting t/t minus arm i popped it into a sniping prog I use for just note-pad purposes most of the time. At the end of scanning fleabay I evaluate, educate and in most cases then simply delete. Well not two evenings ago. I cancelled the JBE III bid in plenty of time (i.e. at least 5 mins prior to auction deadline) and drifted off into a nice snuggly snooze. Snugly that was until my laptop piped up and fleabay's little pop-up note informed that hoorah hoorah I had won the auction. Despite complaints to the sniping company I now have a dd turntable built on a slate bed,minus arm etc that I know nothing about at all, includuing what arm its set-up for winging its way to me. What a **** I must be!

So if anyone has any knowledge of the beast please share it with me.

Regards


ps please take time to pray for my sanity as I think it may be early onset Altzeimhers? ;)

Wow, looks like the Rega Planet TT on steroids. I like it.
http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/7091/jbeseries39eb.jpg

I had one of those in 1980 , I would say its sound quality was on par with the Rega P3 of the time and as it happens mine was fitted with a Rega 200 tone arm , should have 33/45 electronic speed changer in a little black box if memory serves me , looks funky but I'd fit it with a full size mat if i were you. Hope thats of some use. :cool:
Oh yeah it retailed jfor £200 at the time less than a Linn (£250) but more than a Rega (£120)

Back in the late 70's the JBE was considered as an alternative to the LP12. Unfortunately Linn's persuasive marketing controversially swayed the hifi press against it despite several blind tests where it was actually preferred. This was a shame as the development of turntables did not advance perhaps as it could have. Well executed direct drive turntables are in my view preferable to the sprung subchassis single motor belt driven variety. Models like the Technics SP10 Mk2 in a good plinth with a good arm offered(and still offers) a far more accurate and stable presentation than their belt drive counterparts, however cheap, badly made DD models ruined the reputation of that kind of turntable. It took until 1980 when the Goldmund Studio came out for people elsewhere to appreciate what DD could do although in the UK Linn (and their hype) held sway for many more years.

If you put a decent arm on it like an SME 309 and if you put some kind of better mat, (carbon fibre, acromat or even acrylic) this could be a fine machine and well worth what you paid.

If you put a decent arm on it like an SME 309 and if you put some kind of better mat, (carbon fibre, acromat or even acrylic) this could be a fine machine and well worth what you paid.

Hmmm (rubs chin) ... shame its brown though intit :rolleyes:

I think it's grey in real life!

I think it's grey in real life!

Thank 'eavens for that then :)

to be really accurate about describing its colour I'd call it Slate grey cos its made out of slate:D

I've always been wary of these snipy programmes - now I know why.

I knew some-one with a JBE in the 1980s, with a Syrinx arm, Meridian pre and M&A valve power.

Seemed to work OK

Not as good as a Linn LP12 mind.

DS

is anything as good as a Linn LP12?

No, obviously not

DS

Thans for your help Murray. If what you say is tru I have an RB300 with an Elys 2 I can try in it,hopefully before my partner strangles me in my sleep or poisons me. Why don't women understand the importance of music. Regards Tony

Good idea regarding the achromat I've got one that moves between my Sonde and 401. It all depends on degree of VTA adjustment cus theye are approc 5 mm deep and may prove a pain if I need to shim the RB300. I really do appreciate your help though.

There are many turntables as good if not better than an LP12, sadly the JBE III was not one of them.

Hi
I had one in 1978, and Ive still got it!(LOL). Only now its been hashed about with an origin live suspended chassis atop! JBE originally made them with clear acrylic(the first one I had) and then moved onto solid slate. I chopped it around when the motor packed in. Wish Id kept the "off deck" box of tricks 33/45 + micro adjustment. You could have had it for nowt, SORRY I threw it in the bin!
Originally the JBE's tended to come along with SME's,I fitted the AT1010, which I also still use, but everyone tells me I should also throw that in the bin!!
My only regret was I didnt look very hard for a replacement motor. Wonder if there would be a direct drive that would work well now, given the advances since the late70's/80's???

The slate looks brilliant if you "dress it" with linseed oil and let it dry.

When I originally bought the acrylic one in the late 70's I sat for days in Dunglinson's in Carlisle comparing the LP12, Ariston RD 80 and the JBE.
So there really must be something wrong with my ears!!
Hae fun!
Steve.

The RB300 should work really well particularly if you can make a solid coupling between it and the slate either by using more slate or (more likely) an aluminium plate. Don't use mdf or perspex or anything 'lossy'. You may also want to experiment with the feet and the type of platform/isolation it stands on.

I always found the rega cartridges a bit dull sounding but try it and if it's no good get something else (Goldring 10 series?)

Direct drive TT's like the SP10 Mk2 (in a good plinth and with a different mat) or an EMT will stand up very well to the modern turntables especially if you listen to classical music. Remember the SP10 cost £450 without a plinth or arm in 1976. An LP12 then cost a small fraction of that and the SP10 cost that much despite being made in large numbers by a huge company like Technics.

I have had one of these since the early 1980's. Fitted with a Syrinx LE 1 arm and Denon 103D mc cartridge I thought it pretty good. The Denon failed about 7 years ago and as a stop gap I fitted an old Pickering XSV3000 mm cartridge (put a new sylus in). Not really right for the arm but was OK. I have played CD's mostly since but am beginning to take an interest in vinyl again. \I have a reprint of a Practical HI Fi magazine article from Sep 1979 reporting on a public comparison of the JBE / Linn LP12 and STD 305. Apparently the JBE was preferred by 80% of the listeners and this reportedly caused controversy throwing the audio pundits of the time into some confusion.

I have found the deck mechanically reliable but the push button switches ( on/off and speed change ) to be crap. They became very unreliable after about five years and I replaced them with high quality miniature toggle switches. Since then no problems.

I am now thinking about fitting an up to date moving coil cartridge.

Hope all this is of interest

Any chance of scanning & posting a link to that Practical HiFi article. I vaguely remember it but more vividly remember the huge backlash it caused!

There are many turntables as good if not better than an LP12, sadly the JBE III was not one of them.

Hehheh! Sure - but obviously not for music.

The Bristol show showed out how far ahead Linn is. Quite unreachable. SME 30 was paper (more like a joke) against the previous std. Linn LP12. And the new Keeled one got a nice leap further on.

But I do understand that many people have such bad systems that they won't get LP12's best musicality through.

Oz

Dunno, you may be both.

High end hype has all the 30 years through brought hundreds if not thousands TTs to be "better than the LP12". SME30 belongs to those. They have all been jokes - at least the ones I have heard and very obviously the rest of the bunch, too.

If you are tune deaf, then it is understandable. And most hifi/high end listeners still are.

Linn/Naim "marketing hype" has not been anything else but truly better music. This only has to be heard by letting go the high end spotting spots in space and concentrating more into the music itself. Then it becomes clear. This same works with the manufacturers. As long as they spot only sounds they can never reach Linn. As they have not. But Linn is again going further setting again a new standard.

After listening the two LP12's in Bristol, I would say that they had no need to go further by sound. The previous top LP12 is so very, very good. I think they made Keel only for marketing purposes to make some noise from themselves as there is so many people in the high end hype, who have not found better music reproduction yet. But in the same time they really went further on - Keel is not just another hype but a true improvement.

I agree with Bub that it is a question if it is worth the investment - the older top standard is so good. But when you start with a new Sondek, then you may build on the Keel and start with Akito arm and cheaper cart. and have it so fine without going much more expensive.

Hifi people tend to evaluate by tones/sounds and spots in the space. Unfortunately. Not by musical tunes, notes and timings. And then anything is better which is shiny or heavy enough. Looks matter. I cannot blame, I was once there, too. But with a little help from a Linn man, I found out how much better the music can be. There will be much less to choose from after that. That is not any problem for me.

What comes to the JBE, these "Linn alternatives" we have had also tens and tens during the time. They have not been Linn alternatives but bad choices. Those buyers should have reached to LP12 in those times and they would have had something totally different in musical terms. That's the plain truth. That's the only info I have on JBE.



Oz

Thanks very much for your quite personal post.

It is telling it's own story about yourself, I think.

Oz

the older top standard is so good. But when you start with a new Sondek, then you may build on the Keel and start with Akito arm and cheaper cart. and have it so fine without going much more expensive.
Oz
I agree, it's a point I made before regarding the Keel. I'd be interested in hearing from anyone who has done a comparison of a Keel'd LP/Akito vs. a standard LP12/Ekos. Should be easy enough for a dealer to do.

John

...Keel is not just another hype but a true improvement.

I agree with Bub that it is a question if it is worth the investment - the older top standard is so good....

Very funny. The point I was making is that getting a Keel is a bit of a waste of money, because the LP12 is nothing special these days.

Very funny. The point I was making is that getting a Keel is a bit of a waste of money, because the LP12 is nothing special these days.

I agree with you Bub. It is truly more special to ask super high price from a flat-melody, boringly clinical TT.. Like the SME30 in Bristol. True accuracy of musical non-accuracy.

Oz

Actually, Keef...
Oh, never mind.

... It is truly more special to ask super high price from a flat-melody, boringly clinical TT.. Like the SME30 in Bristol. True accuracy of musical non-accuracy.
Well, I wasn't at Bristol, so I can't comment on how that SME sounded. But, in general, turntables are inaudible unless they are connected to amplifiers and speakers.

OTOH, I've compared the SME 20 with an LP12 in the same system, and so have several other people.

PM 4 u Mike. Well there might be if you empty yr box.

Sorted, James.

coops,

Attack the argument, not the person -- please.

Joe

There's not really an argument to address; person A prefers the SME30 to the LP12; person B prefers the L12 to the SME30. That's a difference in taste, and de gustibus, as we know, non est disputandem.

Quad erat demonstratum.

( Not a Quad endorsement, btw. )

coops,

I did -- and I don't agree with Oz -- but that's rather not the point.

Joe

Hmm. Is 'tune deaf' less of an insult than 'idiot'? (He asks naively, being both more often than neither).

Joe,

Maybe, but tune deaf was used generally, whereas being an idiot was used specifically. Maybe I'm making too much of this. (I'll go back to posting bad pictures of comets in the other room.)

Joe

coops,

Attack the argument, not the person -- please.

Joe

Well said Joe. Others Please take note.

Thread pruned to remove personal attacks and re-opened.

I demoed an LP12 in about 1978 with an Ittok and ASAK cartridge, (hope that doesn't offend anyone.)

I demoed an LP12 in about 1978 with an Ittok and ASAK cartridge, (hope that doesn't offend anyone.)

You cad!

Not a Quad endorsement, btw.
That's OK since it should have been a Quod endorsement.

I remember the JBE fun. Maybe I'll dig some stuff out.

Paul

....person B prefers the L[P]12 to the SME30..
Person B states that the Reliant Robin is faster and handles better than a Lamborghini. Coincidentally, person B sells Reliant Robins.

I don't think you need to go to the expense of an SME30 to better an LP12. For me, in my system, my LP12 was bettered by a much cheaper P9.

I still like LP12s, though, especially with Naim bits. I just don't think Linn is the be-all and end-all of tables.

Joe

Contentious Petrik, it's been quiet around her for too long ,I sense a hanging, I mean banning in the air!

coops,

You're rather spectacularly missing the point.

Joe

Actually, Keef...

Nuts in May?

Joe. You need to learn to listen in a musical manner. OK?

I don't think you need to go to the expense of an SME30 to better an LP12. For me, in my system, my LP12 was bettered by a much cheaper P9.

I still like LP12s, though, especially with Naim bits. I just don't think Linn is the be-all and end-all of tables.

Joe

It has been said , on this very forum that the LP12 is the greatest turntable ever made and that now recently improved it has taken another giant leap forward and is now even further ahead of the world's ( also ran ) turntables, I would most humbly disagree with that particular assertion, if no one else minds.

Joe , which point am I missing?

Joe , which point am I missing?

Err, that humbly disagreeing and calling someone an idiot are quite different things?

(Just my view from the cheap seats. Sorry. Carry on.)

You may have a point

Coops,

Check the forum's AUP, the thing we all agreed to follow when we signed up as members.

Joe

Oz isn't an idiot, but he is a bit of a so-and-so. I really think the opinion of a Linn dealer has to be taken in the context of him being a Linn dealer. Particularly when it is at such variance with what is observed by disinterested parties in the real world.

If you take off the platter and turn it upside down, the acrylic disc then becomes the record support which sounds much better than the squidgy pods provided by the manufacturers. The pods then act simply as ballast for the platter. How do I know this..? I did just that mod (plus a few others) to a JBE in the '80s.

I didn't realise he is a Linn dealer, not idiotic just really sad.

If you take off the platter and turn it upside down, the acrylic disc then becomes the record support which sounds much better than the squidgy pods provided by the manufacturers. The pods then act simply as ballast for the platter. How do I know this..? I did just that mod (plus a few others) to a JBE in the '80s.

That makes a lot of sense.

If you like a bit of fun. Go for an LP12 dem, distract the super salesperson, and while he's not looking, whip the platter off the Linn and swap the Linn belt for one off a Thorens 3001. Then sit back and watch as he gets all embarrassed and starts sweating.

Endless hours of fun.

Bub, I am not a Linn dealer BTW. At least not yet and not anymore.
You can check that any time from Linn site.

I am just not sharing your ideals of good sound.
For me, the tune which is inevitable part of real music, should be
reproduced accurately. Also the smallest variations of notes,
the pitch, if you wish. Also the timings should be interpreted the way
which give artistry an opportunity to become noticeable.
LP12 is a master for these. I just could not care less about
soundstages, details etc. SME have been commented many times
here and in Finnish forums to lack life. That is for me, very often,
used for lacking those musical abilities listed above.

But as I wrote before, if you have a system which cannot let musicality
thru, you will never really find out what LP12 really can do.
Bub, from your long term previous postings, I have my doubts..

----

Arrowhead, what is that supposed to mean?

Oz

Bub, I am not a Linn dealer BTW. At least not yet and not anymore.
You can check that any time from Linn site.

I am just not sharing your ideals of good sound.
For me, the tune which is inevitable part of real music, should be
reproduced accurately. Also the smallest variations of notes,
the pitch, if you wish. Also the timings should be interpreted the way
which give artistry an opportunity to become noticeable.
LP12 is a master for these. I just could not care less about
soundstages, details etc. SME have been commented many times
here and in Finnish forums to lack life. That is for me, very often,
used for lacking those musical abilities listed above.

But as I wrote before, if you have a system which cannot let musicality
thru, you will never really find out what LP12 really can do.
Bub, from your long term previous postings, I have my doubts..

----

Arrowhead, what is that supposed to mean?

Oz

Exactly what it said. Try it, you'll find it hard to hear any tune in anything.

Just beg, borrow, or steal, a Thorens belt and do it. You'll find it most amusing.

Yeah, okay, that is very possible.
Upset the delicate balance of a hair toleranced instrument and
you will loose the musical performance at once. Correct.

I just objected the idea of harrassing shop people.
They are people in their job. Think somebody to come
to your shop and start harrassing your efforts.
Think somebody in public forum agitating people to come
and harrass your job.. Got my point?

Oz

But as I wrote before, if you have a system which cannot let musicality
thru, you will never really find out what LP12 really can do.

If.


with apologies to the inhabitants of Laconia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconic

I listened to the Linn system played at Bristol. It was better than their woeful efforts of last year and wasn't actually offensive this time. I expect you'd have to spend as much as perhaps £2-3K to have comfortably bettered it. Oz, if you (and they) thought it was of reasonable performance then it tells me alot. I expect far more from a hifi system than it being that turgid and lifeless. Such a system doesn't serve music well imho, but if it floats your boat then fine. As for the SE version of the LP12, same old same old. The people at Linn do need to get a few competing products (not just turntables either) in and listen to them.

Telling us we don't know what true 'musicality' sounds like or that we are 'tune deaf' simply highlights your aural myopia and does you no favours.

Murray, did you ever get a picture that I am fishing favours from tune deaf people? Oh, no. I am not.

Tunewise it was the best there is. The new level from any commercial media. Lifeless, not in any way. But perhaps that tube-like life, which is a question of it's own..

It was easy to go around the show and notice how rare real tuneful musicality still is. But those same makes still can do it.

Also the cheap Maranzes and the Vincents with the Ruarks.

Most of the hifi and high end still seem to keep in distance from musical abilities. Same in the Heathrow show. Peculiarly the same makes could do it there, too. The same brands which have been making it for the last decades.. Things are not chancing too much. Quality leaders keep their positions.

One TT I would like to hear is NAS.
SME does not interest me at all anymore.
Nor does Mitchell which have failed every time I have heard it.
AVID has been irritating by high freqs but musical in both shows, Heathrow and Bristol.
Roksan's new is a good player IMHO, if not an LP12. As is the P9.

Oz

He is full of it.

Bub, I am not a Linn dealer BTW. At least not yet and not anymore.
So, this means that you used to be a Linn dealer, and hope to become a Linn dealer again in the future. And you claim this doesn't affect your opinion about the LP12?

Oz, I have heard the best Keeled & Ekos SE'd LP12 on Earth. The very best one, bar none. This was at the Linn factory at Drakemire Drive. It didn't play music very well. It was appallingly bad, in fact.

This is me being polite, btw. The SME 20/2A is leagues ahead, and to even compare the two shows either a distinct lack of judgement, or (more likely) someone who hopes to become a Linn dealer at some point in the future.

I don't sell SMEs, Linns nor anything else. I just like listening to music.

High end hype has all the 30 years through brought hundreds if not thousands TTs to be "better than the LP12". SME30 belongs to those. They have all been jokes - at least the ones I have heard and very obviously the rest of the bunch, too.

I have DPS/Schroeder Ref/Lyra Dorian and a LP12/Ekos/Karma and I can assure you, whichever way you look at it the LP12 setup does not cut the mustard compared to DPS setup. This is not a criticism of the LP12 based system, merely putting into context it's age and the design.

Does that mean the LP12 setup sounds bad...no it does not. Merely, the DPS setup manages to extract that much more information from a record right across the spectrum, with a clarity, tightness and precision that the LP12 does not.

So to all those LP12 owners out there...just keep banging those rocks together guys :D

merely putting into context it's age and the design.

How old is your Karma and when was it last rebuilt?

Another Linn dealer!

I had a Linn LP12 which was tweaked by your Guru, and to be fair, it was pretty good. I had a Linn Akiva on it. Yup, pretty good. I was very pleased. Then I scratched the SME itch.

I couldn't get rid of the Linn fast enough. It's a toy, in comparison: Fisher-Price.

Linn dealer back in the 80's but it doesn't seem much has changed on the turntable front. Your opinion means little to me as I never thought you knew was Linn was on about in the first place.

The guru you mention doesn't think much of the SME turntables and continues to enjoy his modded LP12. He said he could have gotten one for peanuts if he really wanted one. I think his quote was "I wouldn't have one if it was given to me".

SME have never heard of him, John. I hesitate to disappoint you, but the things he claims are known as "BS". I know him only too well, and was taken in by it myself, at one time.

Who is this 'guru'?

Metal guru, is it you?

John, they've never heard of Mana, either. Minnows like John are not really on their radar, and they would never have given him a deck for "peanuts".

Edit: post looks a bit odd since John seems to have withdrawn one.

How old is your Karma and when was it last rebuilt?

Ermm...why must there be a fault with the Karma? I also had my Aro on the LP12 with both the Lyra and a Denon 103D playing. They all sound good but they all sound like arms and cartridges on an LP12..delivering within the limits of what the LP12 can do.

Why must there be a "fault" with my LP12 setup if my DPS/Schroeder sounds fresher and newer...I expected those qualities from the DPS/Schroeder otherwise I would not have bought it. If I wanted to stay in the same place I would have bought another LP12. Linn do not have a monopoly on the design & manufacture of high quality record decks, to assume and postulate such a position is the height of arrogance and stupidity.

I bet you have not even heard a DPS deck let alone a Schroeder arm...

Well said, and I think he's never heard an SME, either. Gilad Tiefenbrun looked like he'd been shot when I told him that I wasn't too impressed with the "new" LP12.

Arrogance, stupidity & hubris (lovely word, hubris).

I'll have to do some portable tune-dems. :rolleyes:

John, can you believe that any turntable could possibly be better than than the LP12, or is this idea inconceivable to you?

When you know a bassline, and hear it mangled, what conclusion do you reach?

John, can you believe that any turntable could possibly be better than than the LP12, or is this idea inconceivable to you?


Well, for me at least, no Bub, I cannot*. At least not from SME. That's a fairy tale for me.

Like John said, you never knew what LP12 was about. You are high end man. You go to Linn hearing tones and spotting spots in space & listening low end "tightness", details etc.. No value.

Clarity, tightness and precision says Mark. Where's the music? I don't give a damn about clarity, tightness and "precision". I listen to music. That way LP12 seemed to be so far ahead in the Bristol show*. No other deck came near of it. SME not getting onto the matter at all..

What kinda guru are you talkin about Bub? Who is a guru who never got you to know what LP12 is for?

This all same bullshit has been talked around a thousand TT's during the last 30 years. Every time they are sooo much better than LP12. Every time they are newer technology, more detailed, giving more clarity, being more accurate, etc. etc. And as many times as I have heard them, they show no music or some music but not nearly on par with LP12. Mostly just another ridiculous joke. Numerous bitter guys have been bashing Linn during these years. Never understanding what Linn really have been working on. I have seen this. Anyone who have sold Linn, does understand what it is about. And knows how many high end listeners never got the true music but sounds, details, spatials, blah blah blah blah... If you concentrate on those, then it is all the same for me. You cannot tell which player plays music best.

LP12 is made for music. You can gladly name 1000 TT's to be better than LP12 in those vanities. I would not care. But I will be the first to acknowledge when I hear a TT playing music better than LP12. I would immediately be very keen on that deck. I don't care LP12 - I care about music. It's just that LP12..

Oz

I love the way you make assumptions about how I listen to music, and what my system sounds like.

You are wrong.

Here's a famous Bub quote (http://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?p=302806&highlight=tune+dem#post302806).

Here's another (http://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?p=294774&highlight=tune+dem#post294774).

I love it too, Bub. I am not wrong. You just cannot differentiate music and high end hifi. Sounds from music. Cause you could never get into proper demo and learn what they tried to say. You had a problem with it. And you lost everything.

Oz

No I didn't, I'm much happier with the SME, and I regard the Linn as 2nd division, sorry.

I love it too, Bub. I am not wrong. You just cannot differentiate music and high end hifi. Sounds from music. Cause you could never get into proper demo and learn what they tried to say. You had a problem with it. And you lost everything.

Ah...the man who has a monopoly on the correct way to listen to music...what a load of twaddle.

LP12 is made for music. You can gladly name 1000 TT's to be better than LP12 in those vanities. I would not care. But I will be the first to acknowledge when I hear a TT playing music better than LP12. I would immediately be very keen on that deck. I don't care LP12 - I care about music. It's just that LP12.

I love the idea that the LP12 has some monopoly on ‘music’. What do you think all these other turntables were designed to do?

I have a real soft spot for the LP12 – it’s a great deck, IIRC I’ve owned 12! It is in however far from perfect IMHO. Things have moved on. The main problem with it as far as I can work out is that the centre of gravity is too high – it is way above the suspension plane, which is a very silly place to put it – it means the thing spends each and every day of it’s life trying to fall off it’s springs.

The end result of this is that LP12s (and Thorens, Aristons, ARs etc) tend to ‘breathe’ as they rotate. Look very, very carefully at the gap between the armboard and the plinth, in about 7 out of ten LP12s there will be a very slight movement as it wobbles on its suspension as the platter rotates. I’m only talking about a half mm or less, but that’s enough. With the ones that are ok all it takes is a record with the edge not perfectly trimmed and it will do the wobble thing a bit – the CoG is so high this is inevitable. Think about what this is doing to the pitch. Yes it’s subtle, but try a solo piano record (say some Monk, everyone should have lots of solo Monk) on a LP12 and then on a good rigid deck like a Spacedeck that simply can’t suffer from this issue and tell me that the Linn is more ‘musical’. Assuming you have half good pitch abilities it is a no-brainer – one is in tune, one is not. At this point it is game over.

You really need to get out and listen to a few more recent decks as the Linn, nice though it is, is no where near the front of the pack from a pitch perspective these days. If the pitch ain't right how can the timing be?

Tony.

I've come to the conclusion that there is no point in even trying to argue with these LP12 fanatics. The look on Tiefenbrun Jr's face said it all. He simply couldn't believe that anything could possibly ever be better.

Funny, really, if it wasn't so sad.

Why oh why does every thread relating to TT's, no matter what brand, develop into a slagging match about how good/bad/musical/boring the Scottish TT is?

PS Having heard several incarnations of the said Scottish TT I have yet to hear what all the fuss was/is about. My modified TD125 plays tunes just as well and this does not need some overpriced/overhyped Keel mod as the Thorens always has had a cast alloy chassis. Ivor was too cheap/lazy to copy it when he first started building the Scottish TT.

I love the idea that the LP12 has some monopoly on ‘music’. What do you think all these other turntables were designed to do?
Tony.
From your description of this (http://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?p=190790&highlight=Joel#post190790) Linn killer, I wonder what it was designed to do better? At least according to your expert opinion, Bub has much to look forward to though he may have to get on his knees to change records.

The whole argument about PRaT and pitch stability eften gets confused when discussing the LP12.

There are two issues to consider here. Firstly the effect of very small low rate speed fluctuations (wow) and secondly the way the TT deals with the energy comming off the record.

The LP12 measures pretty well wrt to pure speed stability but is by no means in the premier league. Whether the low rate fluctuations are actually audibe is arguable (I never noticed it) but I can accept that others hear it on steady state signals such as piano.

The reason people love their LP12s IMO is because of the way they deal with the energy comming off the disc and the resulting sound which is is open, full of life and engaging. Music sound fun lively and enjoyable on a good LP12 because it excells at preserving the pitch and timing repationships between different strands within the mix - ie it sounds coherent.
Contrast this to the SME30. Yes it probably has stunning low rate speed stability but play some music on it and it fails to stir the emotions - it sounds rhythmically flat, like it's just going through the motions. Tonally accurate, clean, low surface noise and great hi-fi but musically deadpan. It is a characteristic I often hear with high mass decks, particularly where a clamp is also used, though to be fair the NA decks I've heard certainly avoid the problem.

These comments relate to the pre Keel LP12 as I've yet to hear the new deck.

From your description of this Linn killer, I wonder what it was designed to do better? At least according to your expert opinion, Bub has much to look forward to though he may have to get on his knees to change records.

No, I didn’t like Joel B’s SME, it struggled to better his CDS2 even when playing my killer 1st press US 12” of Joy Division’s Atmosphere against the usually markedly infinitely inferior Heart And Soul box-set CD. Joel’s SME just didn’t work for me, or truth be told for him either as he fairly quickly sold it along with all his records. I filled my boots with the excellent record collection, but declined a very favourable price on the SME.

I have however been in this game long enough not to write off a product based on a listen in someone else’s system, there are just too many other variables. So for me the jury is still out on the SME. Please don’t read anything more into my comments than that – this is not a deck I have had at home in my own system, and that is the only way I ever really form an opinion.

Tony.

I have however been in this game long enough not to write off a product based on a listen in someone else’s system, there are just too many other variables.
Well, exactly.

I've never heard the SME 30, but I am told that it sounds broadly similar to the 20, although it must be better, I would have thought. Robert's description of the 30 doesn't match my experience of the 20. The 20 is a stunning deck, by far the best I've heard from vinyl. To describe it as "rhythmically flat" or "musically deadpan" makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.

The Achilles heel of the 20 is the external arm cable by vDH, which is terrible. You absolutely must ditch this. My Series V also has the internal cable upgrade, although I don't know what difference this makes as I haven't heard the standard-issue one. In addition, the Model 20 now has the new power supply, which is alleged to be an upgrade over the previous one.

Finally, my 20 sits on a phase 11 Mana wall-shelf. I have absolutely no idea whether this is good or bad or indifferent, but it sounds so good* that I am very reluctant to make any alterations.

* by this I mean you hear what is actually on the record, rather than the edited highlights

but try a solo piano record (say some Monk, everyone should have lots of solo Monk) on a LP12 and then on a good rigid deck like a Spacedeck that simply can’t suffer from this issue and tell me that the Linn is more ‘musical’.
I own a Spacedeck and an LP12 and I was listening to some Keith Jarrett solo piano today (Bremen Concert). The Linn is more musical.

LOL. More musical.

You may as well claim it's more purple.

I own a Spacedeck and an LP12 and I was listening to some Keith Jarrett solo piano today (Bremen Concert). The Linn is more musical.

If it were not for the fact I was bored with setting it up every few months (the Zeta, whilst excellent is weight wise right at the limit an LP12 will support) and the fact I have well over 500 12” 45s that I couldn’t play without resorting to that piece of shit adapter I’d not have had any issue with the LP12 at all - I liked it a lot. I do prefer the Spacedeck though – it just sounds bigger, more solid and more ‘real’ to me, but all that came as a surprise - I just wanted a tool for playing records that was less hassle to use. There is no way I’d go back now.

I've never heard a SME IV or V on a Nottingham, nor have I read of anyone else using such a combo - no reason it shouldn't sound good though, but mostly they seem to be used with unipovots. Make sure nothing is overtightened, Nottingham decks hate 'tight'. It is a totally different design concept to Linn and a bit of set up knowledge will be rewarded.

Tony.

I own a Spacedeck and an LP12 and I was listening to some Keith Jarrett solo piano today (Bremen Concert). The Linn is more musical.

LOL. More musical.

You may as well claim it's more purple.

Yeah, it's curious. You are not allowed to say it. Propably for the very reason it is true and the guys who don't know what are we talking about are too frustrated on the words alone. Or they're just the guys who have their urge to change their hifi every now and then. Then one very good item is not suitable for their lifestyle. Cause they just cannot keep one same thing too long. I bet this is the story..

Keel and SE brings even better tune and purity & cleanse around the notes. Life and dynamics. Stunning.

Oz

Did I see some new NAS model on the web - studio something?

Does anybody have any experience or knowledge on the new model? How it compares to the old models? I would like to take one NAS for evaluation purposes and possibly sell it. Must call to the man me thinks.

Oz

Then one very good item is not suitable for their lifestyle. Cause they just cannot keep one same thing too long. I bet this is the story..
Oz, I owned my first LP12 from 1985 to 2003, the second from 2003 to 2006. Looking back, I wish I'd changed to SME far earlier, wasted years.

If a car enthusiast told you he preferred a Volvo to a Saab because the Volvo was more "travelly", you'd think he'd lost his mind.

Agree Keel & Ekos SE is a small (but pointless) upgrade, like fitting a turbocharger to a tractor.

Bub, I understand your point but for me musicality in a TT is something very, very else, than travelly in a car.

AFAIK a turbocharger is nowhere pointless i a tractor..

Oz

They are exactly the same. I can claim that my BM is the most travelly car available to mankind, and no-one can disagree, because travelly is a made-up meaningless word.

I can write paragraphs about how it travels better than anything else....if someone comes along and says his Porsche is faster, all I need to say is that yes, it might be faster, but it doesn't travel quite as well. Do you see?

Linnik

I heard the Linn demo at Bristol and to be honest, I was embarrassed at how poor it was.

Yes, the A/B of the Keel and SE showed an improvement, but nothing like as much as that I heard when it was done at Martin Kleiser in Beaconsfield.

James

Just because they make the deck does not mean they know how to get it sounding better than anyone else. The MacLaren F1 racing team is run by a bloke in a wheelchair, he does not drive the car, that is done by someone more travelly.

M

Mike, yes. TBH, even the full-on Keeled one wasn't as good as my old Ninja/Aro/Akiva. It couldn't resolve basslines properly. Much less purple.

And here we are back to this point (http://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?p=376521&highlight=unscientific#post376521).

Plumptious, perhaps?

Yes plumptious.

John, have you tried the SME in your own system? It wouldn't hurt, you know. The engineering is amazing btw. It really is a thing of beauty & grace. Bloody heavy, too for such a small thing - it's a lot smaller than the LP12.

Anyway, too many people feign their floccinaucinihilipilification with regards to the Linn.

You have judged with your ears and chosen the SME ( I can understand why. )

Hurrah for you.

Buy Plopp, Mike. http://www.butik-hemlangtan.m.se/produkteng.asp?varaID=27&kategori=2

How kind of you to suggest this, James; I have ( as they ask ) put some Plopp into my basket.

M

http://www.butik-hemlangtan.m.se/produkteng.asp?varaID=140&kategori=6

I'm not sure whether I could survive for very long in Sweden. I would be giggling all the time.

Oz,

I shouldn't bother listening to a NAS if I were you. It seems that you aren't particularly interested in what has been recorded, more in the particular set of losses and resonances that your favourite record player imparts on the music. Do you think it is the muddling when the music gets busy that you like, perhaps the diminished & unchallenging dynamic range or even the euphonic upper bass and absent lower bass that appeals to you?
I'm not sure you'll hear much of any of those 'virtues' in a NAS.

"Life & Dynamics" my arse

Oz,

I shouldn't bother listening to a NAS if I were you. It seems that you aren't particularly interested in what has been recorded, more in the particular set of losses and resonances that your favourite record player imparts on the music. Do you think it is the muddling when the music gets busy that you like, perhaps the diminished & unchallenging dynamic range or even the euphonic upper bass and absent lower bass that appeals to you?
I'm not sure you'll hear much of any of those 'virtues' in a NAS.

"Life & Dynamics" my arse

Lol!

Yes plumptious.

John, have you tried the SME in your own system? It wouldn't hurt, you know. The engineering is amazing btw. It really is a thing of beauty & grace. Bloody heavy, too for such a small thing - it's a lot smaller than the LP12.

Anyway, too many people feign their floccinaucinihilipilification with regards to the Linn.

You have judged with your ears and chosen the SME ( I can understand why. )

Hurrah for you.


Yep. Truly chosen by ears! Hehheh..

Mike, please tell me where do sound better that in the Linn demo in Bristol. Tell me?
Why too many people like Linn? They have their reason for it, I guess. Why is that a problem to you?

Let me tell you that you are just a bunch of hifi freaks who really do not know too much of music reproduction. You judge by ears. Your ears say: "It really is a thing of beauty & grace. Bloody heavy, too for such a small thing - it's a lot smaller than the LP12."

Uhhuh.. :p

The SME "quality" was easily hearable in Bristol. Not too much to admire. I will never give a damn about flashy technology but only about the sound quality. Musical sound quality? Absolutely and only that. BTW - the Keel itself surpasses SME's techological accuracy easily. But I don't give a toss about it either. I like it only because it sounds so very good.

It is not a surprise that you are so deaf when you try listening with your eyes only.. I would easily accept the SME even it is so bloody ugly - IF it would show some music, some real music to compete with - Linn. But it hears to be soooo far behind. A typical hifi freak machine. No value for record playing to me.

There are some TT's I would like to hear better. NAS is one of them. I don't have to expect anything as for me it is easy to hear how they score. By music. No musical sound - it is junk. Musical sound - compared to LP12. Scored. Simple.

Oz

BTW - the Keel itself surpasses SME's techological accuracy easily.
This has really made me laugh out loud.

Do you know who manufactures the Keel?

Yep. Truly chosen by ears! Hehheh..

Mike, please tell me where do sound better that in the Linn demo in Bristol. Tell me?

Hi Linnik

Like I said in the next paragrpah; Martin Kleiser, Beaconsfield.

Why too many people like Linn? They have their reason for it, I guess. Why is that a problem to you?

Its not the slightest problem to me that somebody should like some kit. I myself am very fond of my LP12/Ekos2/Akiva/Lingo2/Prefix, but I've recently heard an SME 20 which I rated highly.

Let me tell you that you are just a bunch of hifi freaks who really do not know too much of music reproduction. You judge by ears.

Is there any other way? I remember somebody asking me for a scientific explanation of why I did not like some Sony kit, and refused to expound its virtues. The fact I'd not heard it was utterly lost on him and even if I had heard some of this kit, if I did not like it then that would have been enough for me, regardless of some pseudo scientific "rationale".

Regards

Mike

In fact, would anyone like a picture of me licking my LP12?

I would like to see that, please Mike.

If you rate the SME then you are not listening correctly -- and that's official.

LP12 seems to be a kind of incredible threat to some people here.

For them, it would be so nice to have something new to be better.
Changer urge. By listening music, however, there is not any threat to LP12
as far to my ears. But I have not listened every TT.

By historical experiments, there have been a thousand "LP12 killers"
which every one I have heard has been just another crap. I am not too convinced to find
many better TT's but always open to listen to. I have no
urge whatsoever to make understatements about LP12, however.
It gotta be something real to beat it. Not cheap legends
of technology etc. Not mere some deaf people who come and say that Keel demo was sounding really bad. These opinions can be cut out right away. Cause it sounded just marvellous.

Castle Engineering (A Tiefenbrun company) makes some most stringent precision parts to aviation and military projects. No problem to make any degree of precision job for Linn either. SME won't surpass. Yes, Bub, I have read your previous comment on Keel maker. So what? Whoever makes it, does it to Linn's specs and Linn designed it. It's only robotics by a software design from Linn. The manufacturer has not much of a role today.

Oz

Oz, stick with the LP12, it's fine.

Castle Engineering (A Tiefenbrun company) makes some most stringent precision parts to aviation and military projects.

Don't research what SME make (and I don't mean the Keel).

LP12 seems to be a kind of incredible threat to some people here.

For them, it would be so nice to have something new to be better.

Many of us simply don’t get agitated either way – I like the LP12, I like my Spacedeck, I liked my Roksan and P9. They each have a slightly different presentation and a very slightly different set of strengths and weaknesses. To argue one has a monopoly on “musicality” is preposterous.

This thread is getting somewhat silly and liable to descend into typical name calling etc - I think it would be good to bring it back on course. Why not move the discussion away from rhetoric and one-upmanship and over to turntable design.

I’d love to hear someone justify from a technical perspective why a LP12 / Thorens / AR or any other deck based on the 1960s Ed Villchur design is better logically than say a current Nottingham, DPS or SME, or a 1970s direct drive deck like a Technics SP10 or Micro DDX1000, or a 50s-60s idler drive deck like a Garrard 301-401. I don’t want marketing hype or bullshit, nor a slagging match, just an articulate discussion of the design priorities and execution.

Tony.

IMHO the advent of the Keel has brought the LP12 design to about where the Roksan Xerxes was...about 20 years ago.

Many of us simply don’t get agitated either way – I like the LP12, I like my Spacedeck, I liked my Roksan and P9. They each have a slightly different presentation and a very slightly different set of strengths and weaknesses. To argue one has a monopoly on “musicality” is preposterous.

This thread is getting somewhat silly and liable to descend into typical name calling etc - I think it would be good to bring it back on course. Why not move the discussion away from rhetoric and one-upmanship and over to turntable design.

I’d love to hear someone justify from a technical perspective why a LP12 / Thorens / AR or any other deck based on the 1960s Ed Villchur design is better logically than say a current Nottingham, DPS or SME, or a 1970s direct drive deck like a Technics SP10 or Micro DDX1000, or a 50s-60s idler drive deck like a Garrard 301-401. I don’t want marketing hype or bullshit, nor a slagging match, just an articulate discussion of the design priorities and execution.


I too am brand neutral. I found a turntable that was good enough for me some 20 years ago and have stayed with that manufacturer, but am quite relaxed if others say it's not for them. The same goes for my choice of CDPs, amps and speakers; in my opinion they're excellent and I'd certainly recommend adding them to any auditioning list, but only on the basis that they work for my ears, in my room, playing my choice of music, and might not work for others. I blew the dust off my old Exposure system earlier on and it sounded wonderful, playing Vivaldi via an ancient pair of Mordaunt-Short bookshelf speakers. It doesn't have the detail of my main system, and is a little on the 'broad-brush' side, but it's still a great system, and thoroughly recommendable.

Unfortunately I'm not technically knowledgable enough to argue the merits of the various designs you list. My experience of direct drive turntables was entirely negative, but that was at the budget end of the market.

The SME "quality" was easily hearable in Bristol. Not too much to admire. I will never give a damn about flashy technology but only about the sound quality. Musical sound quality? Absolutely and only that. BTW - the Keel itself surpasses SME's techological accuracy easily. But I don't give a toss about it either. I like it only because it sounds so very good.

The trouble is, you insist in treating an aesthetic preference as if were an objective, measurable thing, when it's an entirely subjective, personal preference. Is it 'right' to like Marmite, or 'wrong'? Is it 'right' to prefer the music of Mozart to the music of Beethoven? By contrast, it is possible to measure, say, the sensitivity of a pair of speakers or the output of an amplifier and arrive at an objectively 'true' figure that any sane person can agree with.

I would like to see that, please Mike.



Always happy to oblige, James.

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/1654/lickinglinn002ho4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Mheh! I read your post as offering to show a picture of you kicking your Linn! No way I'm licking my Roksan, that's one dusty TT!

Goodness me !

How ridiculous a misunderstanding, Joe.

IMHO the advent of the Keel has brought the LP12 design to about where the Roksan Xerxes was...about 20 years ago.

Really, it's that bad? ;)

Don't research what SME make
Well, who knows.

But a machine like this (http://www.hurco.com/Hurco/English/Products/Machining+Centers/VMX+Series/VMX+30+Machining+Center.htm) can probably make two Keels at a time and costs about the same as your car.

I expect SME got the job because they are known to Linn and were cheap. There's no magic at all to the manufacture of this part.

Paul

I’d love to hear someone justify from a technical perspective why a LP12 / Thorens / AR or any other deck based on the 1960s Ed Villchur design is better logically than say a current Nottingham, DPS or SME, or a 1970s direct drive deck like a Technics SP10 or Micro DDX1000, or a 50s-60s idler drive deck like a Garrard 301-401.
I think the reverse would be more interesting, given that that is the direction of most recent obloquy.

The SP10 and Garrards are special cases since their performance is totally dependent on their mounting, which the manufacturers elected not to concern themselves about. Perhaps we should exclude them from the debate?

Paul

Really, it's that bad? ;)

I couldn't possibly comment, Rob :cool:

I think the reverse would be more interesting, given that that is the direction of most recent obloquy.

Ok, I think Ed V got the subchassis design wrong. I realise this is a spectacularly arrogant thing to say as the guy was IMHO one of the true audio innovators and a genius, but being honest it just doesn’t work properly. I detailed earlier one reason I think it is flawed (centre of gravity way, way too high impacting pitch). The LP12 is also the deck most dependant on it’s support that I have ever owned – what is the point of a fancy suspension system if it does not isolate the deck from it’s surroundings? Because the CoG is IMHO in completely the wrong place the thing needs to be mounted on a wall if you have a less than perfect suspended floor - the slightest sideways movement spells disaster for this design. There are many who prop their LP12s on stands / wall support systems costing many thousands of pounds – surely that is all the proof you need that this suspension design doesn’t work.

The Spacedeck is the opposite extreme to the Ed Villchur decks – it is heavy, rigid and incredibly inert. I can grab the spinning platter and stop it without the cart jumping. Likewise I can bang the record label or record edge really hard without anything worse than a very slight click appearing from the speakers. The Spacedeck does sound very slightly different on the floor to my 700 quid hi-fi stand, but it is not night and day the way it was with a Linn. I have never enjoyed giving huge amounts of money to fancy hi-fi furniture manufacturers – buying a deck that doesn’t need such things just makes so much more sense.

So, my argument is that heavy modern rigid decks like the NAS are not only better at pitch resolution, they are also more immune to their environment. Surely this means they are better suited to intended purpose?

Tony.

I thought you loved your green stands, Tony :D

I don't think it is a good idea to generalize NAS's performance to all high mass TT's. They are propably not giving the same sound quality than a NAS.

An instrument being sensitive to it's stand is not a fault in design IMHO. It can also be looked other way that performance can be easily got to higher levels by making some cheap mods to the stand. It's also telling about sensitivity which is instrumental for top level instruments anywhere. Okay - the producer CAN make an interface to help placing with a degree of optimization. Linn actually made this by the Trampolin, which BTW is now also upgraded by the new aluminium version. Reminding that the AR TT could take a hit by a fist onto it's top plate while playing still faultlessly. Same design.

I don't think there is anybody here who really could evaluate technical points of TT designs. We just don't understand a TT well enough. We can say anything simple or take up one or two highlighted points of a certain design but it won't propably tell too much of anything. It is well possible that a top contender can be made by many different technical constructions.

One thing we do know: There is one TT which has been on the markets 33 1/3 years and has been chosen for the most important hifi product ever both in U.K. and U.S. It is upgraded now and it sounds very good. No, better than very good as it sounded very good before the upgrades.

It's the obvious no.1 choice and every other player has to be evaluated against it. Oh, that is what have been going on last 30 years, isn't it. And we know why. Still all the times in the history, there have been buyers for many other TT's, too. Even for more expensive ones. And will be. It does not mean anything about the sound quality but it's a rule.

One thing just kept coming up to my mind before Bristol show - why SME's have always been offered "for a very good price" to everybody.. Now I know why. Instead Linn's policy is clear: Linn should never be sold by price. It has to be bought for the sound quality, not price. Totally different pride to the SME. And there is a good reason for it.

Oz

...Surely this means they are better suited to intended purpose?

Only if isolation and pitch resolution are the most significant bits of what a turntable is supposed to do.

regards,

dave

I think you are on the right lines Tony. The only possible source of constant speed in a turntable is the motor pulley's movement in relation to the plinth/top plate it is fastened to. The stylus has to maintain a fixed relationship with that source of constant speed. If the platter/subchassis/arm cartridge assembly is suspended from the fixed top plate/plinth the variable drag caused by the modulated groove's progress past the stylus will cause (albeit microscopically) the suspended part to be pulled towards the motor pulley. A compliant rubber belt will not completely filter out the effect of changes in load experienced by the motor. This movement is to a degree resisted by the lateral compliance of the suspended system. At the point when the pull of the motor is matched by the resistance of this suspension the immunity to feedback provided by the suspension system is minimal. The muddle and blunted dynamics that I hear in this type of turntable is I believe directly a result of the rotating platter's inability to maintain a constant relationship with respect to the rotating motor pulley. I'm sure the speed constancy of these turntables is perfectly fine until they start trying to drive a heavily modulated groove past a stylus.

Careful design of the suspension system subchassis and platter can certainly minimise the effect but not remove it entirely. On turntables such as the Thorens models, the AR, the Ariston and the LP12 this shortcoming has not been addressed at all for 35 years.

If you want to see the effect of changing the load on the motor on one of these turntables on a large scale simply look at how the suspended mass behaves when you turn it on.

Incidentally Paul, Technics give quite clear instructions for making a plinth for the SP10 in the service manual and (I believe) the original owners manual. I was looking at it today as I'm interested in making a new plinth for my second one. I don't think it is appropriate to discount such plinthless designs.

I thought you loved your green stands, Tony :D

That's Rob! I've got a black QS Ref for the deck, CD and phono stage, everything else on the floor on things bought from the local supermarket.

http://freespace.virgin.net/tony.lonorgan/pics/systemtop.jpg

Only if isolation and pitch resolution is the most significant bit of what a turntable is supposed to do.

I’d like to hear a coherent argument that said it wasn’t!

Tony.

I’d like to hear a coherent argument that said it wasn’t!


Does pitch resolution and isolation totally define extracting all or the most important bits of information from the groove? Does extracting all or most of the information from the groove define the most important task of a turntable or is it one of the most important tasks in conjunction with another task (or others?) Is extracting most or all of the information relatively unimportant compared to other tasks? Not sure what is the truth, myself;-)

regards,

dave

Does pitch resolution and isolation totally define extracting all or the most important bits of information from the groove? Does extracting all or most of the information from the groove define the most important task of a turntable or is it one of the most important tasks in conjunction with another task (or others?) Is extracting most or all of the information relatively unimportant compared to other tasks?

I’d argue the above was completely impossible if the deck was a) not going round at exactly the right speed, and b) not isolated from it’s surroundings, i.e. yes they are the core priorities.

Tony.

I would think they are core priorities myself but I wonder if extracting all groove info (or "alot" to be realistic) doesn't override the last word in isolation or speed stability. I guess a question could be 'what's better, a wavering, fat violin, or no violin at all?" Perhaps there isn't a "right" answer?

regards,

dave

Sorry Tony, of course the green stands were Rob's!!
IIRC - but I didn't!

Yes it is quite worthless to take up some individual technical points. We cannot say what they are worth. It is just getting to the same polemic directions like the tangentiality of tone arms some times before. It become clear that it was the only correct design but what happened? Near all tangential arms sounded crap against better one point arms...

It's easy to point out theoretically correct ideals but to implement them to real life often ruins the picture from other corner or two.

I believe more the way that it is not really what to do but how to do it. The best TT's are well thought out packages where most aspects have been ruled up to a symbiosis which work. Like LP12 is. It sounds marvellous. It does not matter how it is done. The same may apply to the NAS even it is thought out differently.

Propably it does not apply to SME even it is thought very much by engineers but not listened carefully - which of course is needed in thinking out very well.. I have never met a working item of hifi which is made by mere engineering.

Oz

I have never met a working item of hifi which is made by mere engineering.

So why make a song and dance about Castle Engineering?

[SME are better than Castle. Different class.]

It's easy to point out theoretically correct ideals but to implement them to real life often ruins the picture from other corner or two.


I've very much found this to be true. I guess that's why I've found many AM/FM table radios from the fifties that brought more musical enjoyment than most hifis regardless of price.

regards,

dave

I have never met a working item of hifi which is made by mere engineeringAw. There must be some higher powers involved then. Maybe the Linn was designed by the Maharishi ?!

I must say I feel like an atheist arguing with Christians, here.

The SME 20 completely eclipses the LP12 in every conceivable way. Except if you want to be a Linn dealer, or "Priest", in which case the LP12 is obviously better. More money for the Priest, eh Oz!?

Personally, I think Oz has made a good point. The original Goldmund Reference sounds like shit next to a Rega Planar 2. The KMAL arm completely destroys a Technics EPA-100 tonearm, the 40+ year-old Denon 103C sounds better than most other modern cartridges at any price...

The Rega, KMAL, and Denon are engineering jokes compared to their counterparts mentioned above. Perhaps, what appears to be "better" engineering may not be.

regards,

dave

Yes, but it actually is better dave. As a long-term Linn lover, I was surprised.

Yes, but it actually is better dave. As a long-term Linn lover, I was surprised.

..and it may very well be. I certainly haven't had the pleasure to hear an SME. One day I hope!!!

But Oz has... :o

And it's nowt new. SME has always flashed with engineering and kind of micro mechanic finish more than sound quality. It is quite natural that their TT is continuing the same tradition. The engineering image and finish give pleasure for some type of people - it always did.

The earlier SME arm should have continued it's success long time further, if Linn didn't turn it down and choose Grace arm instead and then create the Ittok. That was the point of succumb or survival for SME in hifi. They launched new arms in hectic order and finally, obviously, catched up somewhat..

The first LP12 I saw and listened to (in around -74) was equipped with SME arm. Some years later when I started to sell Linn, the SME was gone and Grace was the arm for LP12. Linn delivered the Grace and Supex cart - for awhile.

(I understand the pain of the hifi boys. It's right away religion and "higher powers", if one is suggested to use ears.. Hehheh, they should have used ears at SME, too. Years and years ago.)

--

Who made the JBE?? Any connections to other makers?
I remember that platter..

Oz

Yes but your judgement has been called into question by other people who heard the Linn at Bristol, and who thought it was crap.

And you are biased because you want to be a Linn dealer.

I'm not selling anything, and I don't care about your hi-fi, because I'll never hear it.

I've not had the pleasure either of hearing an SME. It certainly has a formidable reputation, although its looks do nothing for me. I much prefer the look of the LP12, which is far less brutal. But next week when I audition the Keel and Ekos SE it'll be what makes my records sound best that counts. The Roksan TMS, Phonosophie, and Orbe are also in the frame.

Mike

I really like the brutal look, but I have a load of Mana, so it looks pretty normal.

Yeah I've heard that stuff is a bit mad. Does it do much for the sound? Silly question I know because you use it and obviously like it but I've always wondered. I need to get a decent rack for whatever T/T I end up with so I'm open to suggestions!

Mike

Linnik,

I think what Bub is saying is:

If you think something is crap, but the majority think it is great, then you should changed you view to the majority.

If you think something is great, but the majority think it is crap, then again, you should changed your view to the majority.

In effect, your own personal views are worthless if they do not coincide with the majority.

Of course, these rules do not apply to Bub.

Hi DScOTT,

No, what I am saying is that comparing an LP12 with an SME 20 is like comparing a horse-and-cart with a space shuttle.

But if you hope to get a horse-and-cart franchise in the future, then plug it!

Kind regards, etc.

In your opinion.
:-)

Well, not just mine! I don't think I'm exactly "out on a limb" here!!!

Bub,

I love how your defending of the SME just gets more and more over the top over time.

When you owned the LP12, you defended it to the death, now you regard it as a fisher price horse and cart.

Anyway, compared to a Continuum Caliburn the SME is the horse and cart. That's progress.

Well, try Simon Yorke.

The point is, that all the reviews I've read coincide with my own experience about LP12 and SME. Whether you believe that is up to you.

Bub,

Did you not read Michael Fremers review of the LP12 (full spec), which he compared to his Simon Yorke (at double the cost).

Actually I know you have read it, because you referenced the article when defending your LP12.

Why do you need the support of a group of reviewers, don't you trust your own ears?

I've never seen a review of any Nottingham Analogue deck, ever! I'm perfectly happy with mine.

No, of course I don't need the support of reviewers. But it's nice when they agree!

Bub,

You had an LP12 (although an unusual one), you obtained an SME20 to try at home and preferred it, so you bought it. Perfectly logical.

What I don't understand is why you now feel the need to "stick the boot" into the Linn at every opportunity, and to question the sanity and\or hearing abilities of anyone who might have a different view (i.e. prefer an LP12 over the SME). Those views might be in the minority, but so what.

Um, I'm actually defending the SME against someone who is "sticking the boot" into it at every opportunity.

Nothing like getting some of your own medicine!

Um, I'm actually defending the SME against someone who is "sticking the boot" into it at every opportunity.


But why? If you're happy with it, what does it matter if other people stick the boot into it on a Hi-Fi forum? As long as they don't turn up at your door and do it for real, what's the problem? Go and play some records on it.

You just enjoy arguing on the Internet, as do I.

:-)

Yeah, "whatever", as they say. Having owned both I know which is better.

Yes, I enjoy a good argument, and why not?

Better is very subjective.
But pitching in on a side here.
I have just sold my LP12 after many demos of all kinds of TT's.
THe main problem with comparison is you need time to allow the familirity of the old to wane, to fully appreciate the new.
What I mean by this is after a shop/ 1 day demo I always prefered the LP12 becuse it was familier, you judge its strengths and overlook its weaknesses. Yeah sure the other TT did this and that a little better BUT I love my LP12 so the other TT's are not as good/crap.
Well there is a major flaw in this approach ..... TIME
Now have a demo for a couple of weeks and all of a sudden you start to think well it does this and that a hell of a lot better and oh I can play anything on it and oh hell this is as musical as anything I have heard. Goning back to the LP12 after several weeks and you all of a sudden hear its faults.
End result - listen with an open mind give it time and you will see things are so much better than a LP12.
Phil

So to date I have tried an SME20/2 / NAS hyper / Michell orbe SE now he Avid Volvere and I have been profiundly DISSAPOINTED. I would not give any house room over my crappy LP12/EKOS/Lingo.
THe one/many overiding impression/s is not one single deck carries a tune better than my sondeck, not one makes me get up and dance like my sondeck, not one actually "feels" like live music, like my sondeck.....
o what the hell am I missing from all the posts about how shit the LP12 is ???????? I havnt a clue ??? but would love someone to demo it to me, because I havent heard anything remotly in the same league

Phil

Phil,

What I don't quite understand is that once you bought the VPI, you said that you could listen to most of your records, where as with the LP12, you could only listen to 30% of your LP's. How does this fit in with your comments above?

Anyway, maybe now you should get a week long demo of an SME20 and compare it to your VPI, you might find that the SME is in another league.

As you said, better is very subjective. Sometimes "better is better", sometimes "better is just different".

as I said - familirity confuses judgment.
Its only when you listen for a while you understand the improvemnts.
Agreed on the SME I should have given it much much longer - you never know.
But one thing I do know is my post earlier this year shows my confused state and highlights the strength of the LP12 enhanced by my familkirty with it.
Even a short demo of the others highlighted the sluggishnes of the LP12 but I like many others belived this to be not an issue as its so musical ? again I was focusing an what the LP12 did well and ignoring what it didnt.
That is not to say the LP12 is not a great deck - it is.
Phil

Technics give quite clear instructions for making a plinth for the SP10 in the service manual and (I believe) the original owners manual. I was looking at it today as I'm interested in making a new plinth for my second one. I don't think it is appropriate to discount such plinthless designs.
That's a fair point. But it still multiplies the possibilities hugely.

Paul

Technics themselves made a fancy plinth for the SP10 out of obsidian (whatever the hell that was). Looked really nice.

http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/sl1000obsid2.jpg

Tony.

I use one made from Corian that Stirling Broadcast used to make until they got too busy making LS3/5a's. Works very well.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/pre-ampinsidechinesTT022.jpg

...and sounds ok too! ;)

I realise this is a spectacularly arrogant thing to say as the guy was IMHO one of the true audio innovators and a genius,
There we agree.
but being honest it just doesn’t work properly.
There we don't.

Sitting the assembly on compressed springs makes it more stable than dangling it from stretched ones. The springs work to keep the subchassis in the same place. When you dangle the assembly there is no resistance to swinging at all.

The LP12 is also the deck most dependant on it’s support that I have ever owned
I disagree about the support dependence. The requirements are simple, something that doesn't wobble. There's no need to get expensive. The support fetish is another symptom of audiopoolery.

the slightest sideways movement spells disaster for this design.
Yet it continues to work acceptably on towers of swaying Mana...

I think the truth is that it's much more complicated than that. After all unipivots can be made to work and they wobble all over the place.

Paul

Sitting the assembly on compressed springs makes it more stable than dangling it from stretched ones. The springs work to keep the subchassis in the same place. When you dangle the assembly there is no resistance to swinging at all.
Paul

Actually the restorative properties of the springs comes partly from the fact that they are tapered. Straight sided springs in tension or compression (provided that they are anchored properly at both ends) will have the same ability to restore the suspended part to its rest position.

I'd also beg to differ re unipivot arms but that's a different subject!

There we don't.

Sitting the assembly on compressed springs makes it more stable than dangling it from stretched ones. The springs work to keep the subchassis in the same place. When you dangle the assembly there is no resistance to swinging at all.

I don’t agree at all. The standard Villchur arrangement puts two springs beneath and within the circumference of the platter, the other just outside yet before the arm. In other words the suspension has a smaller footprint than the object it is attempting to support and that object is completely top heavy. With anything other than a perfectly straight and level impact it will sway outwards in the direction of impact, i.e. exactly what you don’t want it to do.

To try and put it another way picture a large heavy object, say a bathtub. There are three Linn engineers who want to stand very close together and balance it on their heads. There are four SME engineers who want to stand at each corner and lift it very slightly off the floor. The Nottingham Analogue engineer just leaves the bathtub on the floor. When the wind comes who's solution is going to remain more stable?

Tony.

The LP12 is also the deck most dependant on it’s support that I have ever owned – what is the point of a fancy suspension system if it does not isolate the deck from it’s surroundings? Because the CoG is IMHO in completely the wrong place the thing needs to be mounted on a wall if you have a less than perfect suspended floor - the slightest sideways movement spells disaster for this design. There are many who prop their LP12s on stands / wall support systems costing many thousands of pounds – surely that is all the proof you need that this suspension design doesn’t work.
Tony.
Sounds like your floors were less that ideal. When I had my deck on a suspended floor I improved the decks performance when I moved it from a light rigid Archidee floor stand to an Audiotech wall shelf. I could jump up and down on the floor adjacent to the wall shelf and no problems whatsoever. Each stand retailed for $250. I think the suspension on the LP12 works within a certain frequency range. I don't believe it is designed to deal with the low frequency movement of a bouncy floor. If a floor stand is the only option, my experience has been to use something light and rigid that also allows you to make the deck absolutely level. A light stand stores up less energy, a heavy stand couples to the floor more and vibrates what sits on it more. Just place a glass of water on the support to see what I mean.

Are you saying that your deck is immune to footfall problems?

Mine is!

I don’t agree at all. The standard Villchur arrangement puts two springs beneath and within the circumference of the platter, the other just outside yet before the arm. In other words the suspension has a smaller footprint than the object it is attempting to support and that object is completely top heavy. With anything other than a perfectly straight and level impact it will sway outwards in the direction of impact, i.e. exactly what you don’t want it to do.

To try and put it another way picture a large heavy object, say a bathtub. There are three Linn engineers who want to stand very close together and balance it on their heads. There are four SME engineers who want to stand at each corner and lift it very slightly off the floor. The Nottingham Analogue engineer just leaves the bathtub on the floor. When the wind comes who's solution is going to remain more stable?

Tony.

Tony, do you remember the old Logic DM101 with the large central 'mass spring'?

The Logic floated the entire sub chassis on a huge spring beneath the bearing housing. Play a record with slightly uneven thickness or cut and the whole sub chassis would sway by a good few millimetres as the tiny peripheral stabiliser springs tried and failed to hold the thing steady.

Undoubtedly, the arrangement used on the LP12 and many other decks is far from perfect. What matters is the effect it has in real life situations and I'd say it's pretty benign ulnless you get a dud deck or particularly bad environment.

Mine is!
So was this.

http://www.beoworld.co.uk/products/beogram1102_1902a.jpg

Are you saying that your deck is immune to footfall problems?

Far more immune than a LP12 to footfall problems is a fairer way of putting it – if I were to deliberately stamp really hard on the floor in front of the Spacedeck I’m sure I could get it to jump, though it recovers instantly as it has no ‘bounce’. This kind of impact would end up with the arm skating wildly across the record with a Linn.

Tony, do you remember the old Logic DM101 with the large central 'mass spring'?

Very well indeed – two friends had DM 101s. I’ve had the 101 stripped down to component parts over the floor in the past so understand it's structure very well. The one without the mass spring (fitted with a Syrinx PU2) always sounded the best to me despite not having anywhere near as pretty a bounce. The one with the mass spring was fitted with a Fidelity Research FR64S, which is about half a ton of tonearm, and whilst I don’t recall it breathing in the way you describe it was never too hot pitch wise to my ears.

Tony.

Far more immune than a LP12 to footfall problems is a fairer way of putting it – if I were to deliberately stamp really hard on the floor in front of the Spacedeck I’m sure I could get it to jump, though it recovers instantly as it has no ‘bounce’. This kind of impact would end up with the arm skating wildly across the record with a Linn.
Tony.

I guess you could have dumbed-down the deck with a Trampolin to improve the footfall problems or better yet gotten a decent wall shelf arrangement going. The best floors for a turntable are solid concrete IME.

Linn should have got SME to redesign their suspension whilst they were at it with the Keel. Just put a little bit of paper, or a post-it note, on the armboard and watch it oscillate up and down with each rotation of the platter.

I guess you could have dumbed-down the deck with a Trampolin to improve the footfall problems or better yet gotten a decent wall shelf arrangement going. The best floors for a turntable are solid concrete IME.

I agree that the best floors are concrete and that wall shelves are preferable to a bouncy floor. I was however an IT contractor throughout much of the 90s and IIRC moved house 6 times in a period of 7 years, so was not often in a position to consider such things. It is not an issue now as I have a very solid floor and a deck that is far better able to cope.

Tony.

PS FWIW the Trampolin does nothing to help with foot fall.

Linn should have got SME to redesign their suspension whilst they were at it with the Keel. Just put a little bit of paper, or a post-it note, on the armboard and watch it oscillate up and down with each rotation of the platter.
Sounds like your deck or setup was botched somewhere.

PS FWIW the Trampolin does nothing to help with foot fall.

I did for me when I tried it, I'm pretty sure is was designed to be used in less than ideal setups.

anything other than a perfectly straight and level impact it will sway outwards in the direction of impact,
I don't understand this. I don't see any reason for turntables to be engineered to handle impacts.

The CoG of the LP12 is implicitly within the triangle formed by the springs. What benefit do you get from spreading them? I think you raise the rocking resonance wrt the bounce. Why is this a good thing?

Having thought about this for a few minutes I think that if you want a suspended subchassis then the LP12/Thorens/etc arrangement is probably the best. The SME doesn't really have a suspension, it's just an extension of the 'damp it' idiom they employ.

It would be interesting to get an example from each idiom into a room somewhere with a decent system for a real trial.

Paul

Bub, I am not a Linn dealer BTW. At least not yet and not anymore. You can check that any time from Linn site.

No? You better update your web page then.. :confused:

Sounds like your deck or setup was botched somewhere.
Virtually every LP12 does it, John.

The SME doesn't really have a suspension, it's just an extension of the 'damp it' idiom they employ.
It does have a suspension, just not a bouncy one like the LP12's.

Bub


I just tried your little test and the piece of paper did not move at all, what did I do wrong or was your deck setup badly?





Dean

My old LP12 didn't do it either. At a guess I'd say the main bearing on yours was shagged and had a tight spot.

Well, actually my deck didn't do it either (at least not visibly) but most other LP12s I have seen over the years did it. It obviously leads to speed instability.

It's nothing to do with the bearing, it's to do with eccentric weight distribution in the platter, and an over-sensitive suspension.

Tony L has noticed this too, so I don't think I'm imagining it.

Well, actually my deck didn't do it either (at least not visibly) but most other LP12s I have seen over the years did it. It obviously leads to speed instability.

It's nothing to do with the bearing, it's to do with eccentric weight distribution in the platter, and an over-sensitive suspension.

Tony L has noticed this too, so I don't think I'm imagining it.

That makes sense, there is a warning in the manual for the LP12 about not dropping the outer platter. How many people selling an LP12 would tell the prospective buyer "I dropped the platter, but I think it's OK"?

It would be interesting to get an example from each idiom into a room somewhere with a decent system for a real trial.

Paul

Can you imagine trying to get the participants of this forum to agree on what constitutes a decent system?

That makes sense, there is a warning in the manual for the LP12 about not dropping the outer platter.

You should see some of the platters I’ve seen! They really can bend. It’s not the whole story though. I had a brand spanking new platter on my Linn – I’d ended up with a Linn with a bent platter that was bought for other parts that I wanted to do up to sell. I bought myself a brand new platter from Linn and moved mine to the sale deck. I’d swap over my platter when I was working on a Linn that exhibited the problem – they frequently still did it. The better one is at setting the suspension the more obvious it becomes, i.e. the freer, less impeded and longer the bounce the more likely I’d see some very slight ‘breathing’.

I don’t know about James but what I am describing here is really, really subtle, maybe a quarter millimetre or so movement at the armboard – set the deck correctly so the armboard is exactly flush with the top of the plinth, sit quietly in front of the deck with your eyes directly in line with the plinth, start it up and watch the armboard very, very carefully. Certainly about half the Linns I’ve seen do it and I’ve seen a hell of a lot. Even if they don't do it by default all it takes is a slightly eccentric record and it will happen - it is inevitable given how high the CoG is.

Tony.

I wonder if the bolts for the springs were not level or the deck itself. Linn have a tool with a level in it to check and true them up.

Nope, not that - if that is the case you just can't get a good bounce out of the thing. If the deck bounces perfectly with the armboard correctly positioned / aligned then the suspension hangers are ok. As often as not I replaced them all with new anyway. I've still got a couple of sets!

Tony.

How about a warped subchassis or armboard?

We suggest these things not because they are easy but because they are hard...

Anyway it doesn't have to be 'great', just decent. Perhaps a set of modern powered studio monitors would be uncontentious enough?

Paul

I doubt it....

I do too!

What we need to know is can this breathing of the sub chassis be heard as low rate wow.
Every speed stability test I've seen for LP12s of various vintage return excellent results well in line with the competition.

I think that to concentrate on this one aspect is to invent a problem that in practice is......well, not a problem at all.

These differences are actually really really subtle then?

Paul

These differences are actually really really subtle then?

Paul

Well I'd say that 0.05% W&F puts the argument into perspective.

Figures plucked from an old copy of Choice, but for comparison:

Dias (NA) - 0.08%
Elite Rock - 0.05%
Luxman PD300 - 0.09%
Marantz TT1000 - 0.08%
Michell Gyro - 0.04%
Nakamichi Dragon - 0.06%

..... anyway, you get the picture.

Stop worrying about it ;)

Well I'd say that 0.05% W&F puts the argument into perspective.

Figures plucked from an old copy of Choice, but for comparison:

Dias (NA) - 0.08%
Elite Rock - 0.05%
Luxman PD300 - 0.09%
Marantz TT1000 - 0.08%
Michell Gyro - 0.04%
Nakamichi Dragon - 0.06%

..... anyway, you get the picture.

Stop worrying about it ;)

Start worrying again ...

Sugden Connoisseur BD1 - 0.003%

Start worrying again ...

Sugden Connoisseur BD1 - 0.003%
I doubt that, I've never seen such a figure. This must be the precision of the number of rotations, not the W&F.

Apologies I misread ..
Frank Jones Hi Fi News June 1970 on the BD1 ... Rumble 0.003%
Colloms Hi Fi Choice 1977 W+F 0.14% DIN Peak rated ( whatever that means in comparison with the other figures quoted above on the other kits)

I assume that Methods of testing have improved over the years it would be interesting to have the decks submitted to the same tests by the same engineers. (Independant engineers that is)

Well I'd say that 0.05% W&F puts the argument into perspective.
I got a bit out of phase with this....

The (rhetorical?) question was about the sort of system that might allow us to bring some turntables together and widen the range of experiences.

A pipe dream probably.

Paul

The 'steady state' wow & flutter measurements are something of a red herring imo. (incidentally the SP10 Mk2 was measured at 0.025% and the Mk3 even lower) It's how the rotating (and suspended) system behaves when the stylus is trying to stop the record from turning that is actually more important. The minute instability excited in an essentially unbalanced suspended system is what causes the muddling & the imprecise low frequency performance of such decks in comparison with many of the better idler drive, direct drive and high mass 'solid' turntables. I'm not convinced that the cyclical 0.5 Hz fluctuation that might be caused by a slightly unbalanced platter is as audible or as significant.


It would be interesting to have a record with a 1KHz tone cut into one channel and all sorts of nasty low frequency modulations cut into the other channel. You could then look at what effect the heavily modulated parts had on the steady tone. I think that would be far more telling than just looking at the 1KHz tone in isolation as they normally might have when looking at wow & flutter.

The 'steady state' wow & flutter measurements are something of a red herring imo. (incidentally the SP10 Mk2 was measured at 0.025% and the Mk3 even lower) It's how the rotating (and suspended) system behaves when the stylus is trying to stop the record from turning that is actually more important. The minute instability excited in an essentially unbalanced suspended system is what causes the muddling & the imprecise low frequency performance of such decks in comparison with many of the better idler drive, direct drive and high mass 'solid' turntables. I'm not convinced that the cyclical 0.5 Hz fluctuation that might be caused by a slightly unbalanced platter is as audible or as significant.


It would be interesting to have a record with a 1KHz tone cut into one channel and all sorts of nasty low frequency modulations cut into the other channel. You could then look at what effect the heavily modulated parts had on the steady tone. I think that would be far more telling than just looking at the 1KHz tone in isolation as they normally might have when looking at wow & flutter.

Dynamic wow.

Played havoc with many a servo controlled direct drive deck back when the LP12 was king of the castle. In fact it was in this very area that the LP12 and other belt drives with high mass platters were supposed to be superior.
Those old thorough Choice reviews measured the apllication/removal of drag on the motor and the resulting 'hunting' and overshoot could be nasty on some decks.

Big heavy DDs were not immune. Do a google on the Micro DQX1000 and you'll find that everyone ran it with the Quartz lock dissabled because it sounded better.

Yup. Japanese wonder machines did not really be such wonders so many people believed. They looked to the shallow surface and believed what Nippons