I have now been living with a pair of Altec lovelies for a few days. Let's see if this picture malarkey actually works.

http://static.flickr.com/52/115442755_8f8c15c529_o.jpg

These are the speakers flanking the sofa. Between and above them, you can see a vast expanse of whiteness crying out for a bit of damping in the form of some work of art.

http://static.flickr.com/55/115448931_32ba23d84a_o.jpg

A close-up of one of the speakers, with an LP sleeve as to provide a sense of how small these are (hah!). As someone said in another thread, they could do with a bit of paint, but I actually like the fact that they show their history. The cabinets don't hide the fact that these are workhorses.

They are NOT mounted on spikes. A piece of carpeting is useful for sliding the speakers around.

http://static.flickr.com/48/115448978_eeb33e422c_o.jpg

The horn angle is adjusted by the strategic application of some Donald Duck comic books.

http://static.flickr.com/43/115443009_82130c92e5_o.jpg

I'm an avid audiophile. I wouldn't dream of using connectors from the car accessory aisle in my local B&Q-equivalent for adapters; and I certainly wouldn't dream of using some thin 1.5 mm² cable for the last few inches of speaker cable, even though the binding posts on the Altec crossovers don't allow thicker cable.

http://static.flickr.com/56/115442877_79f240bbf0_o.jpg

This is what I'm currently listening to. The power amps are on loan from a friend.

http://static.flickr.com/54/115442949_5725220494_o.jpg

Last not least, a pic of my turntable.

Proper Loudspeakers Markus. I am deeply jealous. Are those Shindo monoblocks?

Shindo Talbot; F2a tubes.

Hi Markus,

Can I ask a few questions?

What are the midrange drivers? They look like ceramic magnets.

Normally people damp down those metal horns. Do you feel the urge to do that yet?

Do you feel it needs a tweeter?

What is the TT? Looks a bit like a Micro.

When did the americans forget how to spell theatre?!!!!

rgds,

Murray

Murray, very briefly as I need to do a couple of other things after having spent way too much time on this picture thing -

yes, they are ceramic magnets. If I keep these long term, I may want to try Alnicos. Same goes for dampening the horns and thinking about tweeters - it's early days.

The turntable is a Nouvelle Platine Verdier in a one-off red finish. I like it a lot.

Nice, looking forward to hearing your impressions.

The Verdier looks very swish in red.

-- Ian

All looks like terrific fun Markus.

Now I want some biggerhorns. Time to progress the DIY...

Hi Markus

Cool setup. Is that a Ortofon arm and cart. Is the cart a Shindo aswell.

I will be making my way to NY to listen to the Shindo lineup in a couple of weeks.
I have just bought nice Garrard 301 too. If I like what the Shindo does I may take mine in that dirrection.

Paul

Markus,

How long have you had the Talbots? The Altec's are undoubtedly and interesting loudspeaker, and one that got me started on the whole JBL/TAD idea.

Having heard the Valencias at Chris's, I would imagine they are something of a change from those that have gone before, particularly the Heeds. Out of interest, do you find the controlled directivity of the horn loudspeaker easier to accomodate in your room that the onmis? I do look forward to reading your thoughts.

Magnificent. What does it sound like?

I need a bit more time to comment on the sound. It's very different again to what I have heard in this room before. In some respects, the sound is the best so far by a rather ridiculous margin. But to really understand what these speakers are doing, I need to listen more, and to digest more.

Meanwhile, this is the specification:

ALTEC 416-8C woofers

ALTEC 902-8B HF drivers

ALTEC "sectoral horns" 511B

ALTEC crossovers N501-8A, 500Hz.

ALTEC Lansing birch ply cabinets Model 828.

A nice "starter" spec, but nowhere near the ultimate. I'm currently re-reading my old Sound Practices.

Markus

Fantastic!

Have fun (like I needed to say that!)

Cheers,
Jonathan

Markus

Fantastic!

Have fun (like I needed to say that!)

Fun?! This is a serious ten-year longitudinal scientific investigation. The findings will be published in 'Nature' after a rigorous peer review process, at which point Markus will have reached XXV in his search. The paper will conclude:

'These of course are only tentative findings. More research is clearly needed. To this end, I have assembled a team of researchers in various locations, and have signed agreements with a further 50 speaker manufacturers whereby their products will be tested to destruction and beyond in the search for a 'satisfactory' sound'.

Wooohoo. Excellent and on to Part V :) They look absolutely ace. Proper speakers eh.

Very much looking forward to a report on how they sound.

If its not too cheeky a question, how much are these babies likely to set you back Marcus?

Paul C, it's a Shindo Meursault arm (a mix of elements from Ortofon and Neumann arms) in 14" length. The cart is a "big" Shindo (these days, there is only one version of the cart, but there used to be two).

merlin, I've only had the Talbots for 10 days or so. But I've heard them in my friend's system a few times.

Joe, I am (mostly) having fun trying all these speakers. But starting a thread just to say "hey, I have just bought these and they are great" without exercising one's little grey cells seems so - I don't know, so Naim forum to me (I hasten to add that in between the boring stuff, there still are some really good threads there).

Uncle Ants, they are actually not that expensive. 1,500 dollars buys you a very nice set of parts on Ebay US. Then you need to get them over here and pay import duty and VAT. I got mine at a pretty keen price, but had to collect them from Switzerland. They are also still available new for 4,000 bucks a piece. That means we are looking at speakers that would cost about 8k quid a pair new over here, or 11 k when sold through the usual channels.

Uncle Ants, they are actually not that expensive. 1,500 dollars buys you a very nice set of parts on Ebay US. Then you need to get them over here and pay import duty and VAT. I got mine at a pretty keen price, but had to collect them from Switzerland. They are also still available new for 4,000 bucks a piece. That means we are looking at speakers that would cost about 8k quid a pair new over here, or 11 k when sold through the usual channels.

Hey Markus, you're right. There's a complete pair on US ebay at the mo with a buy it now of $1,499 ... dread to think what they'd cost to ship mind.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Altec-Lansing-Voice-of-the-Theatre-Speakers_W0QQitemZ9701205794QQcategoryZ50597QQrdZ1 QQcmdZViewItem

Markus

Is the Shindo cart the modded Ortofon SPU?

Cheers,
Jonathan

The outer shell is from an SPU A; the innards are substantially different.

I can just imagine "welcome to the world of odeon cinemas" through these!

aaaaah at last.

I've been waiting for pictures of these!

living, breathing history - right there in your lounge.

When did the americans forget how to spell theatre?!!!!

ca. 1776 :D

For more on "Cinema Sound" :o

http://www.audioperfectionist.com/PDF%20files/journal1rl.pdf

Here's one on Audiogon for under a grand

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1145301024

when buying old altecs, you have to be careful not to end up with a load of old bollocks.

there are many ways to cock up or damage a vintage speaker...

these LOOK like a nice vintage pair of horns on audiogon, if anyone is looking for a pair.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1147373155

They look rather OTT for a man with only one LP.

As requested, I will put some thoughts up on Altecs.

I'm only a keen hobbyist, and no expert on the subject (or possibly any subject!). I've learned to love horn speakers for all they do, and all they don't do.

* First thing I would suggest is trying to get them in the right place in your room. For myself, I found the best position by using the free CARA software on the net ( http://www.cara.de/ENU/index.php?load=start.html ) and used the JBL K2 as the speaker choice, being a reasonably close proximity of a pair of horn loaded Altecs.

* Secondly, you have to think about what you want to do with the speakers. They are exceptional in their own right, and you may choose just to live with them in their current state - or alternatively if you choose to keep them you may want to work on them to maximise them in the long run.

As has been mentioned, modifications usually centre around addressing the speakers weakest points, namely:
1) A crossover with components that are perhaps 25 years old
2) Limited frequency extension, at both ends.
3) A resonant colouration from the sectional horn.
4) Slight wooliness in the bass

1). The crossover is very simple - you normally have an attenuator of some type to attenuate the horn. You could think of it as a treble cut. The amount you might like to attenuate the horn by changes in different rooms and circumstances (and sometimes even recording by recording).
In addition to the attenuator are perhaps 2 more components - an air core inductor (hope I've got my terms right, its late at night) and the capacitors.

Changing the capacitors makes a dramatic effect on how the speaker sounds. 'which capacitor to use' ? is a question all in itself. I chose the best M-caps I could afford at the time. They took an age to run in of course. Essentially changing the caps got rid of the wooliness in the bass. If you keep the VOTTS this one is a no brainer, and needn't be expensive if you don't want to go nuts on the caps.

2) There are many ways I have read of people extending the treble frequency on the horn. As it is now (with the 511B 4-way horn) your treble will probably begin to cut off about 14khz, and dissapear within human hearing. The most common ways of attacking this appear to be -
a. Replacing the compression horn with an alternative model which may give greater frequency extension
b. Using a larger horn to provide greater extension (8 and 12 way horns are common)
c. Using a tweeter to bolster the high end extension.

I chose a tweeter (JBL 2405) and copied the Living Voice crossover, because they use the same tweeter in identical circumstances. I could waffle at length about why I chose that driver, but to summarise it had to do with efficiency, power handling, reccomendations from vitavox/altec forums and the fact that Living Voice use it in a similar context.

3) I'm not at all convinced of the absolute need to extend the bass. The bass is so generous in the band that matters, you are fooled into thinking it is almost bottomless. At some point I will add a sub, almost certainly a velodyne. Other than adding additional bass drivers, a larger horn to the cabinet or a sub, I can't think of any other options yet.

4) I've read of several methods of damping the horn. I believe Living Voice use a sort of expanding foam (I'm reminded of wall cavity insulation). I chose to use Dynamat Extreme (which is used in cars to damp panels). I was advised of this by many fellow nerds who had also done the same. A sticky bitumen like substance with a foil backing it is reassuringly reversable in its application. With an exposed horn like on the VOTT you would notice it, and it would be a judgement call. It really made a difference and I'm glad I did it in my own speakers.

I can't think of any other reccomendations I might make to get the most of them, other than perhaps to experiment with the angle of the horn. Many people like to have the horn pointed at your chin in listening position in order to cross the treble/bass just in front of your head. A personal one this.

I can't think what else to write really. You seem to be using a sensible amp with them - Americans use them with amps like Macintosh and other 80w plus amps. A generous sound and plenty of power are what they like. They were designed to be driven, and I don't like my own pair with flea-power amps, despite their high sensitivity.

I'd put pictures up of the developments I've done over time but I haven't got a webpage to host them on.

I think you've got a wonderful pair of speakers. Like any speakers I think they have their flaws, but there strengths are so sublime it's easy to become swayed by them. In the never ending Markus-speaker hunt (kidding!) they may be a chapter or the final choice - who knows?.. I certainly don't think you could get anything more dynamic or with greater palpability to the sound... its a question of which aspects of musical reproduction you value most.

Dont know if that helps (probably not!!). Hope you enjoy listening to them, and do put some Flamenco on, and other rhythmic music (drums, bongos, they love anything dynamic).

All the best
Cheers
Chris

I'd put pictures up of the developments I've done over time but I haven't got a webpage to host them on.

Chris, mail them to me and I'll post them up somewhere.

-- Ian

Chris

I think Markus should award you Associate Nerd status for that post alone. Not an expert. Right.

They look rather OTT for a man with only one LP.

Ah - but you missed Looking for the right LP - Parts I to MCMLV where Markus honed in on exactly which LP he should own, testing hundreds before deciding exactly which one was right for his room, colour scheme, personal taste and decor.

J

Jonathan, do pay attention, we're at part MMVI now.

Chris, thanks for your comments. I'm wary of adding a tweeter to the Altecs, even though I do hear that the very top octave could do with a bit more sparkl. If I've learned something from all the speaker auditioning over the years it's that I tend to prefer speakers with the least number of ways possible, One way of looking at the Altecs is to see them as the biggest 2-way minimonitors ever.

Could you elaborate a bit on the effect of the tweeter on your speakers, and how you managed to integrate them. Where are they crossed over, and with what slopes?

Chris, do you use an Altec MF driver or a Vitavox?
Which MF horn, Altec or RH330?
What kind of amplifier?

best regards,

Murray

Hi Jonathan,

really I am no expert. I couldnt make or design the crossover myself or build a cabinet.

The only thing I do have is a lot of people who help me out a lot - and I try and remember what they tell me!

Murray, I'm emailing some photographs to SSB so he can help me host them.

Cheers
Chris


(thanks btw Ian)

Chris, thanks for your comments. I'm wary of adding a tweeter to the Altecs, even though I do hear that the very top octave could do with a bit more sparkl. If I've learned something from all the speaker auditioning over the years it's that I tend to prefer speakers with the least number of ways possible, One way of looking at the Altecs is to see them as the biggest 2-way minimonitors ever.

Could you elaborate a bit on the effect of the tweeter on your speakers, and how you managed to integrate them. Where are they crossed over, and with what slopes?


Hi Markus

I'll do my best!

Adding the tweeter to the Altecs has made a massive difference. It was the most expensive change I have made to the speakers, but worth every penny. The extra detail in the treble is notable all over, adding detail to bass heavy notes as well as high/mid frequency sound.

I got a cabinet maker to match the American walnut of my speakers and build the tweeter boxes.

The tweeter is a sealed unit, and therefore the size/nature of the box it sits in doesn't matter too much.

The crossover design was supplied by Kevin Scott of Living Voice, and is just a copy of what he uses in the Air Scout. There isn't all that much difference between a Vitavox S2 in a 4-cell horn and an Altec like mine - so I could copy it without changing anything.

A friend of mine built it for me. We used an air core inductor and some M-cap capacitors.

I have no idea at all about the slopes or anything, I don't think I'd understand the answers if I had them! :)

In terms of lining them up, this is easy because they are in a seperate box. I simply moved them around until the time alignment and integration sounded right. You can't tell where the horns run out and the 2405's come in now.

Wow...been following this thread with much interest.

In Japan they are absolutely mad over this kind of setup. You can often walk into jazz bars to be met with floor to ceiling JBL, Jensen and Electrovoice setups with huge horns. They love driving them with Mcintosh, highend Luxman (not available here), Manley and other stuff.

What does a system like yours sound like...to me they have incredible midrange and dynamics. I've never assembled one myself due to the constraints of my home and girlfriend :)

If you're after a particular part by Altec, Jensen, Jbl....list goes on....drop me a note. There are a huge number of parts available, perhaps its for this type of vintage component that japan stands out for me. New equipment is really quite the same in price as europe and sometimes as scarce.

The Japanese love the 'perceived quality' of the equipment. Mostly it is justified! Sometimes they pay through the nose for english equipment that we wouldnt bat an eyelid over.

Richard

many thanks to Ian (SSB) for hosting my pics.

I must get a site to do this at soon..

http://www.iml.dircon.co.uk/bottleneck/bottleneck1.jpg

http://www.iml.dircon.co.uk/bottleneck/bottleneck2.jpg

http://www.iml.dircon.co.uk/bottleneck/bottleneck3.jpg

http://www.iml.dircon.co.uk/bottleneck/bottleneck4.jpg

http://www.iml.dircon.co.uk/bottleneck/bottleneck5.jpg

http://www.iml.dircon.co.uk/bottleneck/bottleneck6.jpg

To make this a bit easier



http://www.iml.dircon.co.uk/bottleneck/bottleneck1.jpg

http://www.iml.dircon.co.uk/bottleneck/bottleneck2.jpg

http://www.iml.dircon.co.uk/bottleneck/bottleneck3.jpg

http://www.iml.dircon.co.uk/bottleneck/bottleneck4.jpg

http://www.iml.dircon.co.uk/bottleneck/bottleneck5.jpg

http://www.iml.dircon.co.uk/bottleneck/bottleneck6.jpg

eek.

It's a bit like dropping your trousers in public!

Think I'm too shy for willy waving.

Still, at least the place looks tidy. If I were to post any pics of my stuff, I's need to edit out the crap that lies around with Photoshop first!

Think I'm too shy for willy waving.
I'm tempted to say "nice willy" ...

I know what you mean, Chris; it's why I haven't put up any pictures before this thread. All the other things I've been talking about, there were perfectly serviceable photos available on the net.

But with the Altecs, I felt I needed to post some photos so people could see what I was talking about.

Btw, what's your pre, and which c-j are you using?

Joe, don't be shy, we promise not to notice any non-tidy looking stuff.

Hi.

The pre is a kit-pre, available here:
http://www.diyhifisupply.com/diyhs_basie.htm

Mine has been tinkered with a lot, and doesn't bear a lot of resemblance to the original kit any more.

The power amp is a CJ Premier 11a.
http://www.stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/403/

Chris,

Have you bought one of those fancy new dusters by chance?

Joe, don't be shy, we promise not to notice any non-tidy looking stuff.

Hmm. I'll see what can be done, though none of what I own is particularly rare or esoteric.

Yeah, she's called 'Nell' and comes over every other Sunday.. :D

nice legs as it happens :)

as what happens?

very little Alex! :)

Having an extremely attractive cleaner/ironer isn't a bad thing though..

Indeed, I have used several attractive polish and lithuanian girls. Nice bottoms and legs!

Indeed, I have used several attractive polish and lithuanian girls. Nice bottoms and legs!

Real girls?

Indeed, I have used several attractive polish

Mister Sheen?

Used as in paid for their cleaning services. Yes they were real. Occasionally I fed them doughnuts.

Used as in paid for their cleaning services....
like French polishing, for example?;)

Markus,

I had the good fortune to listen to Chris' set up earlier today - the first time I had done so following the changes to the Altecs.

To say the improvements were obvious would be an understatement - to be honest it was like listening to completely different speakers. Whilst this might be perceived as bad by some, the improvements had managed to retain the undoubted dynamic strengths of the Valencias, whilst bringing them into the 21st century in terms of treble extension and levels of colouration.

On my previous visit I did have some reservations as to the suitability of these speakers on the end of today's high resolution systems. Those reservations no longer exist. I recommend carrying out the mods ASAP, preferably before Pt. VI takes over your life.

It may be a long, long while until Pt. VI.

I spent the evening listening to radio yesterday, first speech programme (culture and science), then some jazz. The Altecs are almost as good for voice as the Quads, you can turn them way down and speech remains intelligible. Different microphones, small background noises and the acoustics of the room in which some radio speaker was recorded are blindingly obvious. Even as they are now, they have resolution in spades.

The Densen tuner withstands such scrutiny well, btw, and continues to surprise me.

The future is vintage, speaker-wise.

-- Ian

I must agree Ian. We few, we happy few..

yes, I think that altec and similar drivers have a spooky way of making spoken vocals sound right. I suspect all those decades sitting behind cinema screens helped make this a feature.

My favourite music to listen to on them are musical genres that involve a dynamic snap - making the horn come alive. Tabla, Bongo, Flamenco, Kodo - that type of thing.

I'm going to start a thread on Flamenco in the music section, because I want to learn more from others that love this type of music.


Ian - I agree that buying vintage equipment can allow you to get drive units and cabinets that would be prohibitively expensive to make today for a decent cost (providing you avoid the most fashionable vintage models and buy the right thing).

I think with an unlimited budget you could certainly do better with modern materials however. You would need one seriously fat wallet though!

I think it's about time Merlin sorted out his TAD/JBL horn system.

To be honest Neil, I think the Merlin's more than hold their own in most areas and there is a trade off in others.

Where the Altecs and the like score for me is dynamics - PMC owners have no idea!

I am familiar with jbls and avantgardes - PMC can surpass them in terms of dynamics! The pantomime continues...

Merlin,

Beer tonight?

pantomime indeed. PMC do some things that horns do not (less colouration for example). Dynamics isn't one of them.

I suspect this:

http://www.punchandjudy.com/images/chat2.gif


instead of this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b8/Ear.jpg/180px-Ear.jpg

Well avantgarde horns are regarded as being some of the best and most dynamic ... yet the mb2s beat them easily and they had a better mid to boot. Some cinema systems sound awfully nice using JBL - try out the Curzon Mayfair in london. Fantastic venue and sound.

yep, the MB2s are the best speakers. Period.

It may be a long, long while until Pt. VI.

Even as they are now, they have resolution in spades.



Good news Markus. May I ask if you notice the missing few Khz? And if so, how?

Spray painted white, they would make quite a fashion statement in that room IMHO. I know, heresy!

Well avantgarde horns are regarded as being some of the best and most dynamic ... yet the mb2s beat them easily and they had a better mid to boot. Some cinema systems sound awfully nice using JBL - try out the Curzon Mayfair in london. Fantastic venue and sound.


Hi BBV

My only theory is that we have a different understanding/view/perception (call it what you will) of what dynamics actually are.

To my own mind dynamics are largely a function of efficiency, their scale limited by the size of the transducer.

My favourite music to listen to on them are musical genres that involve a dynamic snap - making the horn come alive. Tabla, Bongo, Flamenco, Kodo - that type of thing.

I'm currently listening to a Mozart piano concerto, Wilhelm Kempff. Not too shabby, either.


Spray painted white, they would make quite a fashion statement in that room IMHO. I know, heresy!

Like this, you mean?

http://www.analog-forum.de/bilder2/Voiceweiss.jpg

See Markus?

Now all you need is the iPod.

How to make something quite large look smaller - paint it white!

I assume the extra side panels are some sort of anti-edge effect?

As to fashion, well, turn to the right...

It's good to see a unique set-up MArkus with what to many folks would not be a set of everyday brands. I would be interested to know how you gravitated along the path, what you grew out of etc.

Can I take it that the Altecs are not fussy where they are placed in terms of bass quality, boominess, general soundstage etc.? I would have thought all speakers like some space to breathe but I can't pretend to know the Altecs.

How do you find the monbolocks comapred with other power amps you have tried. It's interesting how you can enjoy the pro's of different amps without there needing to be a utopian ideal and in the face of the otherwise 'ergo all bar one amp must be wrong' kind of logic.

(bte - haven't had time to read the whole thread yet so forgive me if you've already answered all this)

I'm a little disturbed that Markus has gravitated to monbolocks.

Like this, you mean?

http://www.analog-forum.de/bilder2/Voiceweiss.jpg

Whoa, Markus, you sure work quickly...to quote an old Replacements tune, "Color Me Impressed"!

Those are not mine, as I'm sure you are aware. They belong to a Danish guy.

www.audiohagel.dk

He owns a Verdier. That means he has excellent taste in audio.


I'm a little disturbed that Markus has gravitated to monbolocks.

You're only a little disturbed? Glad to hear the pills are working. Seriously, what's wrong with mono amps?

Did you know that Denmark has the highest number of audio engineers (per head of capita) of any country in the world?

I wish I didn't.

Those are not mine, as I'm sure you are aware. They belong to a Danish guy.


Of course. Nonetheless I have chosen to carry forward the thought of your own bad self as some kind of white-painting human-dynamo. :p

You're only a little disturbed? Glad to hear the pills are working. Seriously, what's wrong with mono amps?


I was thinking that (?)

Thing I love about monoblocks - by their nature you can't help but have seperate power supplies for each channel. Top stuff :)

And I especially admire your new green hair extensions, Markus!

http://www.audiohagel.dk/Billede%20060%20(Small).JPG

Or is that the German equivalent of a barrister's wig?

Important Announcement!

My speaker quest is officially over. My gf has urgently requested that we keep the Altecs for some time, for at least a year, and I'm happy to go along.

Comments on the sound will follow anyway, and I will think about changing the driver line-up and possibly a bit of eq, but I thought it was fair to come clear that a speaker decision has been made.

Congratulations Markus. I had a feeling the Altecs might do it for you. Surprised by the speed of your decision, but I think it's a good one (even if they aren't quite the speakers for me).

For goodness sake man, don't rush into it :-)

Good choice. I'm amazed you got domestic approval.

-- Ian

I shall telegraph The Times to send their best man over to cover the event.

For goodness sake man, don't rush into it :-)

Good choice. I'm amazed you got domestic approval.

Indeed. Perhaps Markus's partner is an honorary bloke.

Even she was getting fed up with all the humming and hawing! :)

Dunc

Even she was getting fed up with all the humming and hawing! :)

Ah yes, the 'wear down their resistance' approach! 'Yeah, my jaw is dropping, my toe is tapping, the silence is inky black, the speakers have disappeared, whatever'.

Congratulations Markus.

Does your partner have a sister?

Even she was getting fed up with all the humming and hawing!

Nahh, not really. For her, it was either the Quads or the Altecs. She did tell me that I could buy any of the speakers that I've had here, but she also made her preference clear. (I was tempted to add that her taste in choosing a speaker is clearly as good as in choosing a partner, but then I realised that someone was bound to turn it around and say the speakers must be terrible.)

Btw this is not necessarily a comment on the absolute performance of the speakers involved, it's a lot to do with the specific situation in our room. More later.

congratulations Markus.

I can't say that I am suprised though.. Altec horns are what I would call an ultimate speaker - not to say that they are ultimate in quality, moreover that they are an ultimate destination when you travel down a certain path.

By the same measure, I would call Quad Electrostatics, Apogee Ribbons, BBC Monitors all ultimate speakers - in that they are at the end of a path that diverges when we make a choice. I see a lot of people here have reached their ultimate loudspeaker by pursuing a technology to its logical extension. It certainly gives people a love it/loathe it moment!

I'm curious as to the specific situation in your room. Does your girlfriend prefer the fact that the Altecs can be put into a certain place in the living room and sound good?

As you say, our 'better halves' often have preferences for reasons alien to a PFM audiophile!


Cheers
Chris

I guess the dispersion characteristics play a good part in this. You have seen the photos at the start of this thread. The other walls are just as bare as the one behind the sofa, and there is no carpeting or even a rug on the floor parquet. The horn keeps the mid and high frequencies nicely focused away from the reflective surfaces, like the Quads did (except they bounced sound off the rear wall and had to be pushed out a good bit into the room to sound their best).

I think it's only to be expected that the two speakers that worked best in this room are also the most directional. In the ATC thread, I mentioned how different my voice sounded when I spoke standing next to the left speaker or next to the right one. The horns get around that problem to a large extent.

I do miss the bass of the ATCs on the Altecs. There's easily an octave missing that the ATCs (which went down to about 25 Hz in-room) managed to reproduce cleanly and the Altecs omit.

I'll also have to work on the high frequencies a bit. I've seen measurements of the horns where they go up to about 14 kHz and then drop off, but it sounds like they drop off even earlier. Or maybe I have to turn the horns up a bit.

To a certain extent, the Altecs are still a moving target for me, you can play with the horn angle in both the horizontal and vertical plane and you have the pot to turn the hf output up or down. Finding the best balance will take some time.

Now that I have settled on a pair of speakers, I'll start working on the room. And I'll try some other amps. I've asked Alpar if I can have the Heed monos back for a while, I liked them a lot. He'll see if he can find a pair for me, or maybe the new smaller monoblocks. I'd very much like to hear how the Altecs sound on solid state amps.

But even before the twiddling and tuning has started, they sound magnificent. We spent the whole weekend listening to classical music. While there was some colouration, the music communicated better than classical music has ever done in this new room. The Altecs have better timing (dare I say PRaT) than any pair of Briks or Naim speakers I've ever heard. They make your foot tap on Mozart. Pictures at an Exhibition was a hugely emotional experience.

I love these and am willing to work on their foibles, and forgive those that I can't work out of them.

Altec horns are what I would call an ultimate speaker - not to say that they are ultimate in quality, moreover that they are an ultimate destination when you travel down a certain path.

By the same measure, I would call Quad Electrostatics, Apogee Ribbons, BBC Monitors all ultimate speakers - in that they are at the end of a path that diverges when we make a choice. I see a lot of people here have reached their ultimate loudspeaker by pursuing a technology to its logical extension.

That's an excellent observation. I agree that the Altecs are not the be all and end all of speakers. Other schools of thought are valid, and other speakers have strengths that the Altecs can't hope to emulate. I'm not even sure they are the best horn speakers, there are some modern studio monitors which should surpass these rather old behemoth. But they are good enough to end audiophilia nervosa for a long time (knowing myself, I know better than to claim that I won't suffer from that affliction again).

But they are good enough to end audiophilia nervosa for a long time (knowing myself, I know better than to claim that I won't suffer from that affliction again).

A good result. It's nice when one manages to achieve this for a while.

-- Ian

I love talking about Altecs and horn speakers, and will probably bore a lot of people if I'm not careful :)

You probably can get better horn speakers of similar design (I imagine that Westlakes are better, but I haven't heard them). A telephone number price tag would result though, or you could go down the DIY route, with unknown results..


So what do you fancy tweaking first? :D

They make your foot tap on Mozart. Pictures at an Exhibition was a hugely emotional experience..I think you should know, Pictures at an Exhibition is ELP (or Mousorgsky if you must). Definitely not Mozart ...

We also listened to Mozart's Peer Gynt, Mozart's Emperor Concerto and Mozart's Lieutenant Kijé suite :)

Okay, okay, the sentence should have been" They make your foot tap on Mozart, and Pictures at an Exhibition was a hugely emotional experience."


So what do you fancy tweaking first? :D

Naughty, but on target. I think I'll have a go at the internal cabling which looks questionable. Also, could you PM me some deatils of your crossover, please.

Another picture of Altecs in light grey (almost white). They really do look smaller that way..

http://www.analog-forum.de/bilder/anlage1.jpg

That picture also shows a Nouvelle Platine Verdier, in a natural ash finish I think.

A closer look:

http://www.analog-forum.de/bilder/anlage2.JPG

A few more pictures like that and I'll convince you all that Altecs are really quite easy, domestic-approval-wise.

I like the original colour and character, and the 'voice of the theatre' plate badges which are so cool.

It's retro chique! - get some modernist furniture and turn the place into 1970's style contemporary living

Painting them does make them blend in... but I'd be more tempted to paint the wife if she complained too much! ;)



NB
Slightly off topic, anyone know of a good hollow flexible/invisible pipe type stuff that I can put power cords into to hide them away somewhat?

Isn't there some sort of flexible plumbing hose that will do the trick?

Don't worry, Chris, mine will remain in the original colour.

A few more words about the sound. Effortless is the word that describes them best. The real deep bass is missing, I'd guesstimate their extension at 40-45 Hz in-room. I recently listened to an electro-tango compilation a friend has done for me, and I have to say that this specific CD made more sense on the ATCs. On the Altecs, I could hear that the bass driver would have liked to reproduce something that it just couldn't, if that makes sense. As the very low bass is musically crucial for many pieces on that compilation, I'd have to give the nod to the ATCs.

The highest highs are also missing, and I may be tempted to do something about that.

But so far, the bits between the lower and upper cut-offs are so convincing that I'm really not missing much, instead I'm enjoying myself immensely. Instruments sound superbly real. Having played with the horn angle (the horns are now turned in a bit and angled a bit more downward than they were before) and the level (I have also turned them up on the crossover), I'm now getting a sound that is surprisingly uncoloured. Not uncoloured to the extent that the Harbeths and the Quads have managed, but competitive with the vast majority of modern speakers.

I've been musing about something for the last few days. Th electrical signal we are sending to our speakers basically contains two informations: frequency and loudness. "Normal" speakers comcentrate o getting the frequency part right, with lots of attention paid to a smooth frequency response.

The Altecs seem to be extraordinarily true to the loudness part. They make dynamic contrasts exceedingly clear. Small loudness gradations in a singer's delivery of a note are blindingly obvious. Slight variations in the force a pianist uses to strike the keys are laid disconcertingly bare. It's the most time-worn cliché of them all, but I really am rediscovering my record collection, the Altecs reveal new information on a lot of records. And that information is important, the music simply makes more sense than it previously did in many cases.

What about phase?

Yes, okay, the signal also contains phase information, but I tend to not care about that aspect all that much (cf. a recent post where I said I'm more interested in hearing why a musician is on stage than where he is on stage). On most of the records I listen to, any spatial information will be artificial anyway, and I don't find that very important (in fact, a mandatory ban of reverb on vocals for the next 20 years would be A Good Thing). Although palying with phase, reverb etc. can be a nice thing, as I'm reminded of every time I play Walk on the Wild Side (and the couloured girls go ...).

I'm currently listening to ESG's South Bronx Story (a record that SSB brought to the nerdathon at Bub's last year and which I subsequently bought). That's one of the 'driest' records I have, and I find it very refreshing not to have to listen through a hash of reverb.

But while we're at it, the Altecs convey spatial information quite well, they allow me to place a musician left to right very accurately. Front-to-back staging is less obvious than on some other speakers, notably the Quads. I can live with that. I also think that this aspect is currently hampered by my room acoustics.

Sorry this post is meandering a bit between phase, reverb, sound and music, but part of the Altec's magic is that I currently don't care much about the finer points of audio.

Normal service will be resumed in a while, I suppose, but I'm having too much fun right now to even attempt to think straight.

It's good to see a unique set-up MArkus with what to many folks would not be a set of everyday brands. I would be interested to know how you gravitated along the path, what you grew out of etc.

Can I take it that the Altecs are not fussy where they are placed in terms of bass quality, boominess, general soundstage etc.? I would have thought all speakers like some space to breathe but I can't pretend to know the Altecs.

How do you find the monbolocks comapred with other power amps you have tried. It's interesting how you can enjoy the pro's of different amps without there needing to be a utopian ideal and in the face of the otherwise 'ergo all bar one amp must be wrong' kind of logic.

(bte - haven't had time to read the whole thread yet so forgive me if you've already answered all this)

Hi Paul,

sorry, it's been while before I got round to answering you. I don't really know how to answer your first question; before I acquired my first Shindo amps, I owned a Nait 2. I tried a number of other pre and power combos but none impressed me at the time like the Shindos did. That said, I could easily live with a number of other brands, including Naim (I'd love to hear a 552 in my system, it's something special I feel), Heed and Accuphase to mention those that I've had through here recently.

The Altecs are less fussy to place than many other speakers, I think. Their bass alignment is quite tight, so they don't need a lot of room behind them. I only have them a foot or spo out from the rear wall and the bass is not boomy; I can live with it easily as it is. The directionality of the horns also means that I get less reflections from the windows, a good thing.

The Shindo Talbots (a discontinued model) are an interesting amp. In the configuration I'm listening to, they use the Siemens F2a single-ended but can also take the 6550 or the KT88. They have more power and more punch than yer typical SE amp, but not quite the midband delicacy of a 2A3 or 300B-based amp. Overall, I like them very well.

Another note: as I was thinking of the nerdathon last year, I put on Deep Purple's Made in Japan. Listening to that record at Bub's was an extremely impressive exprience and made a lasting impression. Bub's system conveyed the energy of Child in Time in an extremely persuasive manner, it was one of the best renditions of a live rock concert I have heard outside of a live rock concert. One of the reasons I tried the ATCs was to try and capture that energy in my own system.

Well, with the Atecs, I'm still not quite there yet, probably because I daren't play them as loud as we heard the ATCs, but even at levels where I can hope that my neighbours will continue to speak with me, I'm getting closer than ever before. Given that my system is not exactly optimised for this sort of music, I'm very pleased with the result.

Edit: DP has been followed by KC, 21st Century Schizoid Man. I should have had this system when I was 16.

A widened dynamic range can be a mixed blessing. It becomes rather difficult to select the apropriate loudness. I'm currently listening to Pink Floyd's Wish you were here; when the quiet bits are easily audible, the loud bits get non-partner-friendly loud.

A widened dynamic range can be a mixed blessing. It becomes rather difficult to select the apropriate loudness. I'm currently listening to Pink Floyd's Wish you were here; when the quiet bits are easily audible, the loud bits get non-partner-friendly loud.

Classical music (especially orchestral and choral) tends to be particularly bad for that...

Dunc

Markus,

if you turn the volume down so that only the very loud parts are in anyway audible, you will improve the listening experience tenfold IMHO.

Hi Markus,

MiJ sounds heaps better with the SME. Thanks for giving me the impetus to ditch the LP12.

'twasn't my intention at all, I assure you.

Anyway, the Altecs. Paul Messenger - a journalist I very much like to read - occasionally says his measure of a component's true worth is the allure of the TV. If your system isn't working as it should, you find you're watching more TV.

By that measure, my current system must be superb. I'm watching less TV than in the last few years.

My system must really be special then Markus because I hardly watch any TV nowadays.



Of course it might also be something to do with the fact that the telly is kaput:).

(in fact, a mandatory ban of reverb on vocals for the next 20 years would be A Good Thing)

A M E N to that!

The only good thing with Swedish 1970's prog rock was that they didn't use any artificial reverb (it was considered 'commercial').

JohanR

Anyway, the Altecs. Paul Messenger - a journalist I very much like to read - occasionally says his measure of a component's true worth is the allure of the TV. If your system isn't working as it should, you find you're watching more TV.

Well, true up to a point. However the quality of TV at present is so low that simply staring out of the window with one's mouth open is likely to be more enjoyable than watching it.

I think thats a bit unfair - a love to listen through my hifi while I am watching movies. Sky tv quality is appalling though.

If you would rather watch a movie than listen to music, the arguement is that your system isn't truly involving.

Not at all - I just like to watch movies as much as I do listening to music and playing it through the hifi adds something to the experience. Films are as important as music to me. Plus I dont have a phono stage for at least another few weeks.

I barely bother with TV other than for the morning news.
Anyway, what I want is a speaker that combines the ease, openness and wallop of Altecs with minimal colouration and very low distortion.
No such speaker exists AFAICT, but, in the Spirit of Markus, this shall be my Quest.

speaker that combines the ease, openness and wallop of Altecs with minimal colouration and very low distortion.

The Altecs have some linear distortion, i.e. frequency response aberrations, but to me it sounds like their non-linear distortion is very low.

Btw, Joel, have you heard an Altec hf horn like the 511 or 811 in a good setup? They sound quite different from the "stubby" on the 604.

Hi,

Interesting thread. This talk of horn has given me food for thought. I want to go towards a higher sensitivty speaker and the Altecs sound interesting. I've had a look at the Altec site and seen the the VOTT speakers are available new in the US for $5800 each. So hunting a pair 2nd hand is an interesting option.

Chris's (Bottleneck) Altec look another good option.

I have seen plans for the cabinets for these two Altec speakers so may look into the 'getting a pair, made option.

Dean

Dean you are welcome to visit if you would like to hear a pair.


Cheers,
Chris.

Hi Chris,

you have PM

Dean

Btw, Joel, have you heard an Altec hf horn like the 511 or 811 in a good setup? They sound quite different from the "stubby" on the 604.I've listened at fair length to A5s in the past as well as some A7s once and a couple of afternoons with a pair of nineteens.
And of course I've spent several years in the company of 604s (which are also excellent, BTW).
I really like Altecs.
But they are not perfect - no speaker is IMO.
What I'd like is something that takes their strengths and adds some other strengths to the mix. I don't think such a speaker exists, but that's what I'm after.

the 3 way jensen imperial folded horns although they are huge !
still one of my fave biggies.

the 3 way jensen imperial folded horns although they are huge !
still one of my fave biggies.
Heard of, but not heard. I have, however, heard a couple of Westrex folded horns....

I keep meaning to visit this place (http://www.gokudo.co.jp/Vanguard/room3/room3.htm)

I really like Altecs.
But they are not perfect - no speaker is IMO.
What I'd like is something that takes their strengths and adds some other strengths to the mix. I don't think such a speaker exists, but that's what I'm after.
Tell me when you've found it and I'll buy it on the spot.

I was listening to a record I've mentioned earlier, a piano transcription of the Lt Kijé suite, played by Frédéric Chiu.

http://www.prokofiev.org/images/covers/prkfb0000007ft.jpg

The Altecs rendered the sound of that piano more faithfully than any other speaker I've had here. They made the playing so convincing that I found myself singing the piece under the shower this morning.

I've been thinking about 'stunt bass', a term that I first saw in Merlin's posts. I take it to refer to bass that you would not normally hear from acoustic instruments (you know, where a tone has attack/build-up, sustain, decay) but is switched on and off, and where notes will follow more rapidly than ever could be played on an acoustic instrument (with the possible exception of the piano, which has its own limitations).

Well, I am working from home this morning and happen to have the Rebirth of Cool Six compilation playing (10 years old now, wow).

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B0000075KO.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

This has stunt bass galore, and it's an album I've been sonically struggling with, as I have done with many similar albums. I could hear what the producers intended, but it didn't quite come out right, it often tended to make me nervous.

With the VotT, I can play the album and relax. I'll have to think about this some more.

I dont think a hifi can invent bass - it can just emphasise or de-emphasise it, or present it much more tightly and firmly then is the norm for ported speakers (giving rise to a measure of surprise and rationalisation in merlins case). Can a hifi really make notes speed up that way? I think what you are describing with that record is a recording with too much bass or where the bass is presented to the detriment of the rest of the music - is that correct?

What do you think of the big k2 jbls?

It's easy for a hi-fi to speed up bass - just take out the fundamentals. There's a reason why so many people think Linn Kans are the last word in PRaT.

What I was trying to talk about is bass that is fast enough not to be tripped up by complex rhythm, has a low enough Q not to hang around after a note has finished, and will portray bass in correct proportion to the rest of the recording no matter how loud or not a track is played.

As I have said a number of times before, I haven't heard your speakers, Nick, so I have no way of knowing how they would compare to the Altecs.

Now, before anybody thinks that the VotT is without flaws, it's not. Some of those flaws are bandwidth-related, some are to do with the inevitable discontinuity between the bass driver and mid/treble horn, some will be to do with the cabinets which do have some resonances, including in those curved panels in front of the bass driver.

But I'm still sufficiently smitten to not worry about those flaws. As and when I do get bothered by them, I'll see what I can do to alleviate them.

Right now, I'm more interested to see if changing the current drivers for ones with Alnico magnets would be worth trying. I may be getting a pair of Alnico bass drivers some time soon ...

I barely bother with TV other than for the morning news.
Anyway, what I want is a speaker that combines the ease, openness and wallop of Altecs with minimal colouration and very low distortion.
No such speaker exists AFAICT, but, in the Spirit of Markus, this shall be my Quest.

Sounds like a description of the larger ATCs - provided the rest of your system is up to the job...

But you would have to sell those Accuphase power amps since active is the only way to do low distortion properly

Andrew

Sounds like a description of the larger ATCs - provided the rest of your system is up to the job...

But you would have to sell those Accuphase power amps since active is the only way to do low distortion properly
Complete bollocks I'm afraid :-)
Get yourself round to Merlin's for an education.

Talking of bollocks:

"The "MM" in the TSM-MM's moniker stands for "Magic Mod" and involves three important changes to the speaker. First, the crossovers and RC networks, the latter of which attach to the speakers' binding posts, are subjected to cryogenic treatment, which involves using liquid nitrogen or helium to lower the temperatures of treated items to several hundred degrees below zero. This changes their molecular nature, and in Bobby's opinion improves the sound of caps and resistors especially."

CRYOGENIC TREATMENT...Spare me!!!

Weirdly, there are some applications of cryogenic treatment where it is truly useful. I have read somewhere about machine tools bits (including drills) that have usefully longer service lives after cryogenic treatment; I assume this has something to do with differential expansion and stress in the metal.

Hard to see why it should have any effect on an electronic component once it returns to room temperature!

Andrew, Joel thinks you should listen to Merlin's new JBLs. I'm sure it would be interesting for you. But I'm not at all sure you'd prefer their sound to that of the ATCs.

It's easy for a hi-fi to speed up bass - just take out the fundamentals. There's a reason why so many people think Linn Kans are the last word in PRaT.

Yeah, but that ain't it. :) I'm sure it benefits from not having to lug all that deep bass baggage about the place, but IME Kans' timing strengths shine most clearly in the mids, and the fact that they seem to be able to get across all the drive and energy of the music without the piercing treble this characteristic often implies just adds to the goodness.

Please excuse the diversion. :-p

Dunc

Hard to see why it should have any effect on an electronic component once it returns to room temperature!

It apparently benefits valves and they glow red hot!

Tony.

CRYOGENIC TREATMENT...Spare me!!!Yeah, it's bollocks, but so is the supposed superiority of "active" amplification. Do a DBX and then tell me it isn't (oh, and I don't use Accuphase power amps BTW).
I don't use Merlins, either. I was referring to a pair of JBL4338s (Greg Timbers is one of the good guys IMO).

Duncan, you should listen to a full range driver in a large open baffle or in a good open-back 'enclosure' some time. Then you will find that, whether in the bass or the midrange, Kans are good at timing, but not definitive in the least. Kans are/were a step forward over many speakers because they don't have much of a crossover to screw things up (and no port). Now imagine having no box and no driver discontinuity to screw things up, either.

Sorry for the diversion ;)

Andrew, Joel thinks you should listen to Merlin's new JBLs. I'm sure it would be interesting for you. But I'm not at all sure you'd prefer their sound to that of the ATCs.

My mistake - I remembered Merlin as having Merlins...

oh, and I don't use Accuphase power amps BTW

This is purely because of a long period of dithering about, it must be noted :-)

-- Ian

Yeah, it's bollocks, but so is the supposed superiority of "active" amplification. Do a DBX and then tell me it isn't (oh, and I don't use Accuphase power amps BTW).
I don't use Merlins, either. I was referring to a pair of JBL4338s (Greg Timbers is one of the good guys IMO).

Have to disagree. On paper at least, active crossovers are superior to passive in their damping factor (because an amp is directly controlling each driver) which will lead to optimal transient response.

This link may help:
http://sound.westhost.com/biamp-vs-passive.htm

Andrew

On paper at least, active crossovers are superior to passive in their damping factor

Yes, but what about in practice? If active ATCs are so wonderful why have listeners such as Markus moved away from them to passive horn loaded systems?

Neutrality and optimum transient response are not to everyone's taste.

In the same way that very very clever people aren't always the most interesting to talk to.

Andrew
- not the new Bub

Oh, I see.

Neutrality and optimum transient response are not to everyone's taste.

In the same way that very very clever people aren't always the most interesting to talk to.

Andrew
- not the new Bub


neutrality is an area ATC are high in for sure in comparison to a horn system. Likewise lack of colouration, and absolute frequency response.

Optimum transient response is another way of saying dynamic response to my mind, and is conversely an area that horn speakers score very highly. This is an inherant feature of very high sensitivity.

None of which explains a personal preference of speaker, which is a very personal thing... the crossover being just a facet in the item as a whole.

Neutrality and optimum transient response are not to everyone's taste.

In the same way that very very clever people aren't always the most interesting to talk to.

If I want an intelligent conversation I just talk to myself.

Neutrality and optimum transient response are not to everyone's taste.


Andrew, have you listened to one of the speakers that people are mentioning here, JBL, various Altecs etc.? In my specific situation, the Altecs are in many respects more neutral than the ATCs.

Regarding the argument of active vs. passive, it is a rather complex affair that I don't really understand well enough myself to start pontificating on. However, there is a good argument to be made in favour of passive speakers if certain conditions are observed: good, i.e. low-loss components in the passive crossover, drivers which have high mechanical damping of their resonance and don't rely on electrical damping, and an enclosure that does not itself cause drivers - particularly bass drivers - to resonate.

If these conditions are observed, money that would need to go into the electronics in the active speakers (the crossover and its power supply, and aditional amps for the more-than-one driver per speaker) can be spent on upping the quality of the drivers and/or the enclosure. It is debatable which route gives better results, pound for pound.

If you'll remember, one of my main problems with the ATCs was a perceived resolution threshold, i.e the speakers were not transparent all the way down into the decay of notes. The Altecs do not suffer from this problem, a piano note will die away into silence without a shut-off point.

Subjectively, they also have a much higher dynamic range - by which I don't mean ultimate loudness but the contrast between loud and soft.

Money no object, I agree that active would ultimately be the way to go.

I think Andrew could be a classic example of someone who believes any equipment they own as being the best available, despite not actually experiencing many alternatives.

These people will use all possible reasons (such as the active is best link) to justify why their kit is superior and summarily dismiss those inconvenient opinions of other people who may think the contrary (and who may have experienced the other products).

You see it all the time on internet forums (not just hifi), I suspect it is some kind of subconscious self defence mechanism, possibly to avoid upgraditis

If you'll remember, one of my main problems with the ATCs was a perceived resolution threshold, i.e the speakers were not transparent all the way down into the decay of notes.

My problem too sadly - something the Merlins do not suffer with despite the cryogenic bollox Andrew refers to.

The TSM is an extraordinary loudspeaker in many ways. When one considers the rather prosaic driver units employed, and the use of a standard (if well made) sealed box, the only thing that could really be responsible for the resolution improvement (in comparison with the ATC 50ASL) is either the audiophile components in the crossover, along with the crossover design itself, or the better amplification in use.

Either way, hearing really does seem to question a lot of the accepted wisdom as preached by ATC.

The JBL's would also prove to be an ear opener I suspect. As Markus finds with the VOTT, the result seems to be more neutral in many ways than the ATC, plus the resolution limitation is not an issue.

I think Andrew could be a classic example of someone who believes any equipment they own as being the best available, despite not actually experiencing many alternatives.

These people will use all possible reasons (such as the active is best link) to justify why their kit is superior and summarily dismiss those inconvenient opinions of other people who may think the contrary (and who may have experienced the other products).

You see it all the time on internet forums (not just hifi), I suspect it is some kind of subconscious self defence mechanism, possibly to avoid upgraditis

:D

I wish!

Andrew

(who has bought and sold 4 pairs of speakers in the last 18 months)

My problem too sadly - something the Merlins do not suffer with despite the cryogenic bollox Andrew refers to.

The TSM is an extraordinary loudspeaker in many ways. When one considers the rather prosaic driver units employed, and the use of a standard (if well made) sealed box, the only thing that could really be responsible for the resolution improvement (in comparison with the ATC 50ASL) is either the audiophile components in the crossover, along with the crossover design itself, or the better amplification in use.

Either way, hearing really does seem to question a lot of the accepted wisdom as preached by ATC.

The JBL's would also prove to be an ear opener I suspect. As Markus finds with the VOTT, the result seems to be more neutral in many ways than the ATC, plus the resolution limitation is not an issue.

Active is better is not an ATC-only mantra. It is electrically true.

I have not heard those particular JBLs or the Merlins so I can't make a direct comparison, I'm afraid. I can't actually find those JBLs for sale anywhere in the English-speaking world. Are they a bit like the K2 series?

I have heard plenty of speakers with horns but they tended to be in rather large rooms at rather high volumes.

I have no interest in starting a flame war about ATC. I'm sure all your speakers are lovely.

Andrew

PS. I find it really hard to judge speakers properly unless I can bring them home and live with them for a while, since they are so room-dependent. Hence my rapid buying and selling of various speakers last year.

Marcus has the right approach IMO.

PS. I find it really hard to judge speakers properly unless I can bring them home and live with them for a while, .

Absolutely agree Andrew. The ATC's were one of the better speakers I have lived with. The Merlins are a very revealing loudspeaker. They also have a totally different set of strengths to the ATC's.

The JBL's are only sold in the Far East as it seems they offend the sensibilities of many Western "audiophiles". What I find interesting is that relatively large horn loaded loudspeakers can work very well in relatively small enviroments. I have heard Altecs performing wonderfully in very tight spaces, and if you get the chance, try to get a listen to something like Markus' VOTT's.

Yes, but what about in practice? If active ATCs are so wonderful why have listeners such as Markus moved away from them to passive horn loaded systems?
Markus is deaf as a post, and mad. He likes Mary Cough-coughlan. I rest my case.

The JBL's are only sold in the Far East as it seems they offend the sensibilities of many Western "audiophiles". Bowdlerism at its worst. Me want.

What I find interesting is that relatively large horn loaded loudspeakers can work very well in relatively small enviromentsBased on current experience I'd agree; wish I had the space to prove myself wrong though.

Markus is deaf as a post, and mad. He likes Mary Cough-coughlan. I rest my case.

Love you too, Bub.

Markus - that isnt speeding up the bass its just missing the bass. I dont think that qualifies for stunt bass in that case? I am still kind of confused by your posts. Do you want stunt bass or not?

Even atc have colouration - you just pick which kind you are prepared to live with.

I always liked JBLs... I would love to hear them or the k2s - has anyone made the comparison?

And just for the record, I think ATC speakers - I won't pretend to be able to hear a difference between passive or active - are most excellent.
Perfect they are not, though. And much as I love them neither are the Altecs, nor I suspect are the JBLs.

Bub, your SME into something like Markus's Altecs (and, I suspect, merlin's JBLs), will blow your head off. You should really seriously consider trying to get a listen to something like this.

-- Ian

Jeez Ian, I'm sat here getting into Mal Waldron, Steve Lacey, Ornette Coleman and William Parker. Suddenly it has life!

It's a Zen thing, dude. Zen, and horns.

-- Ian

Merlin's turning Japanese, he's turning Japanese. I really think so.

Like Here (http://www.shu-ks.com/zakki/zakki14.html)?

That, or this:

http://www.pbase.com/jomina/image/58983317/original.jpg

The speakers are probably wonderful but my various experiences of those big Mc transistor power amps was less enjoyable. (A friend used to be the Swedish Mc distributor so I had quite a few opportunities to listen to them.) I remember a little 10W class A pushpull EL84 amp wiping the floor with a 2500 on some reasonably (not ludicrously) sensitive speakers. Sure the Mc could go louder and had more low end grunt but it was also clinical sounding & flat. Killed the music I put through it.

I remember a little 10W class A I suspect 10W would not be enough to drive 4348s or 4338s. I've listened to the 4338s with 30wpc class A A*******e amplification, and it was pretty fucking wonderful.

You're probably right re driving the JBLs. I can't recall what speakers it was now, maybe Snell E's or Mirage. Whatever, the Mc wasn't so good. I think sometimes these Japanese guys go for Mc and suchlike for some odd reasons not always to do with sound quality.

And just for the record, I think ATC speakers ... are most excellent.

Indeed. I came very close to buying the 50s I had here, and I'm sure I would have been happy with them.

Bub, your SME into something like Markus's Altecs (and, I suspect, merlin's JBLs), will blow your head off. You should really seriously consider trying to get a listen to something like this.

-- Ian
Yes, but I'm OK with the ATCs. I think I play a bit louder than Markus does, and they sound fine to me. And I'm a bit lazy, too.

Bub,

I suspect that if you listened to a lot of jazz, you'd gravitate towards the Altecs. That's a sweeping generalisation, but to my ears, they really excel at things like brass and woodwind. The ATC's cannot match them here IMO - they simply don't have the dynamic freedom.

For studio rock, the ATC might still have the edge. The horn speakers do ruthlessly expose the compression that is rife on most of those recordings. I don't listen to enough classical music to form a worthwhile impression. Still worth experiencing if nothing else.

Merlin, there's no better way of putting Bub off JBLs and Altecs than to tell him they excel at jazz. And he really is OK with the ATCs, they sound fine at his place.

Joel, those A2 look yummy, but I think they are impossible in a domestic set-up. You'd never have the listening distance to get the drivers to gel, what with the distance between the bass drivers and the mid/high horns. The main advantage of the 604 is the concentric mounting of the horn. Would be nice to have for the VotT, too.

I agree with horns not making the most of heavily compressed music.

Horns being heavily dynamic - and compression being the supression of dynamic peaks..

Its no wonder they demonstrate compression so well.

Merlin, there's no better way of putting Bub off JBLs and Altecs than to tell him they excel at jazz.

That's what I thought Markus.

Actually, having now played Made In Japan on the large Proacs, the ATC SCM50's and the JBL's, I'll take the comment about rock music back.

Markus, you know me too well. Still laughing at steal racks.

Not all rock music is compressed Mr M. I still think speakers shouldn't be good at one thing, and not at another, but I have learnt that the ATCs can't play reggae, much to my chagrin.

but I have learnt that the ATCs can't play reggae, much to my chagrin.

Why?

No bass.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=9713092691&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1

Here's a rather nice looking A7 for all those inspired by this very interesting thread:) Very smart in black & green

gorgeous (no doubt)

but something I must point out!!!

A pair of Altec 19's were recently advertised as a frequency response to 35hz, these A7's are advertising down to 20hz!!

Not a chance, not on your nelly etc.

Expect 40-45hz for most Altec models.

Maybe it's a reference to the reported resonance of the woofer - being 20Hz?

Dunc

http://cgi.ebay.com/ALTEC-Dynaco-THEATER-SYSTEM-Voice-of-the-theater_W0QQitemZ7408253605QQcategoryZ23794QQrdZ1Q QcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

..and here is the A7 home cinema option

While I am still waiting for the arrival of the Heed monoblocks (they decided to go to Poland instead of coming to me, and managed their escape with a bit of support from the helpful guys and gals of the courier service, much to Alpar's dismay), may I just say that a good horn speaker cans sound eerily real in certain respects.

I'm listening to Something Else again, an album that I also used in some demos at last weekend's Munich show. My current system communicates the music's intent very, very well.

If you get the chance, do make the effort and listen to a well-set-up high efficiency system.

Wahey, the Heed monos have arrived. I set them up last night. They do have a bit of hiss on the ultra-sensitive Altecs, but nothing that I can't ignore while listening to the music.

Playing at reasonably quiet levels, I knew immediately why I had been so impressed with them previously. These are damn fine amps. I'll play with the system a bit more and report back.

If you get the chance, do make the effort and listen to a well-set-up high efficiency system.
Well-set-up is the operative word here...

A short update on the Heed mono amp prototypes. They sound as sublime with the Altecs as they did with the Envoys. The only problem is a bit of noise on the 104 dB-efficient Altecs, which most definitely is not there on speakers with more "normal" efficiency.

I am currently running a system with my usual sources, a Stevens & Billington TVC, the Loricraft Missing Link and the Heed monos. Not bad at all.

The Loricraft took over two weeks to really come on song; at first, the bass range was somewhat weird. Now, the bass is wonderfully integrated. Top recommendation.

Markus,
Any recent update on the Heed amplifiers?

Anything in particular you'd like to know?

Btw, I recently closed a gap in my audio education and listened to a JBL Paragon. Excellent, but I think I prefer the A7.

Btw, I recently closed a gap in my audio education and listened to a JBL Paragon. Excellent, but I think I prefer the A7.


Is that the one piece stereo speaker that looks like a 50s modernist side board? Tell us more?

http://www.lowther.de/lowther/lautsprecher/paragon.jpg

A guy in Germany, Dieter Kirchhoff (who trades as Audio Technik and is a Lowther guru; he claims he has had several thousand Lowther units go through his hands and sounding much better than fresh from the factory afterwards; having seen his workshop, I quite believe him) has a Paragon in his show room, alongside a pair of Quad 989s and some Lowther realisations.

He buys original JBL drivers, spruces them up where needed - reconing the bass drivers, for example - and mounts them in a custom Paragon copy (he has an original Paragon on hand to show people why he feels they are better served with his copies). The craftsmanship is absolutely superb, better than the originals ever were, and at the cost of ca. 10 k quid, I think they are fairly priced compared to many other speakers out there.

I'm not sure I heard the Paragon at its best; the source was either a Roksan Radius with Nima arm and AT95 cart, or an inexpensive Philips CD player, playing through a Kenwood preamp, some tubed equalisers and a McIntosh 275 tube power amp.

The sound was that of the best juke box you've never heard. Lots of oomph from the mid-bass, but overall a very dark sound. The timing was a bit suspect, and you couldn't really follow a bass line (on Propellerheads' History Repeating, from LP), but someone who went with me and has heard the Paragon before assures me that this was the signal, not the loudspeaker.

Anyway, based on what I heard, I like the tonal balance of the A7 better, it's closer to what I would feel is neutral, but I can most certainly see the attraction of the Paragon. It's a very satisfying sound and the antithesis of the thin, squeaky noise you get from many of those living-room-friendly, high-WAF slim columns.

The guy who went with me has decided to build a Paragon for himself, and to do it economically, he intends to do a small series of 3 or 5 samples (making the form for that huge curved front piece is expensive). I'll be interested to hear his when it's ready. Will take a while, though.

Thanks for that Markus - very interesting. I feel it's a lot more domestically acceptable than the A7. Out of interest, how does it compare with modern JBL in terms of tonal balance?

Hard to say, but I'd guess they are a good bit warmer/darker than your speakers. The tonal balance also depends on the listening height, if you sit with your ears higher than the top plate, there's not much treble at all. Either raise the Paragon a bit, or be prepared to explore the joys of futons and adopt a Japanese life style.

It would be interesting to see a new design for the 21st century. With EQ it would make a really domestically acceptable high end setup, with a plasma mounted above on the wall.

Sorry, but ...

I got my preamp back from the importer where it's been retubed, and I'm sitting here listening to one of my fave albums, Illinois Jacquet's The Blues That's Me! He's playing 'Round Midnight on a bassoon. It's so beautiful and so eerily close to real live musicians playing for me that I just need to tell you all about this.

Sorry about this. There are some noise problems that I need to track down, so there's still work to do.

Hi Markus,

I visited Dieter Kirchoff's place (was he in Bielefeld? I can't remember) once back in the days when I used Audiovector Auditoriums and what I heard there back then cerainly inspired me to modify my speakers in a similar way. He had some JBL based sub system going with the speakers he was using then and it sounded spectacular in a way that possibly only PM4a's can.

BTW I may be making a short (2-3 day) visit to Koln sometime in the next month. Where did you say you are based? (send a pm.)

Bad Salzuflen, which is not that far from Bielefeld. I recently went along to his place with someone who wanted to listen to his Paragon.

You'll have a PM in a moment.

Sorry, but ...

I got my preamp back from the importer where it's been retubed, and I'm sitting here listening to one of my fave albums, Illinois Jacquet's The Blues That's Me! He's playing 'Round Midnight on a bassoon. It's so beautiful and so eerily close to real live musicians playing for me that I just need to tell you all about this.

Post of the year!

I have hooked up today a Shindo Montille, a cute little EL84-based power amp.

http://shindo-laboratory.co.jp/Power-Amp/montille2.JPGhttp://auditorium23.de/Shindo/Montille.gif

15 W per channel proves to be plenty for the Altecs.

looks very pretty.

Is there much Shindo stuff in Germany?

Quite a lot, most of it at Markus's place AFAICT.

-- Ian

Nahh, there's people with more. The German importer (http://auditorium23.de)has done a pretty good job over the years. Ken Shindo's son Takashi has been living in Germany on and off for the last few years and has been repairing and modifying his father's amps to keep them up to date. Makes for a loyal customer base.

Quite a lot, most of it at Markus's place AFAICT.

-- Ian

LOL :)

Love that Shindo green.

aaaah.

how about some Altec green, to match the speakers? :D

http://www.grandcanyontuberadio.com/Amplifiers/Altec%20342B%20tube%20PA%20001_small.jpg

Update time.

I had vowed to myself to live with the Altecs au naturel for a year. I was really quite sick of playing around with speakers after my protracted speaker quest.

Murray was here recently and heard them. He liked the bass but was criticial of the midrange and highs. Maybe he'd like to say a bit more? (be brutal, Murray)

Now that year has passed, I have installed Alnico drivers I have on loan from an acquaintance on the midrange horns. Man, I could kick myself that I haven't done this earlier, these Alnico drivers (808 IIRC) sound substantially better - tonally smoother, less coloured, cleaner. They also sound a bit dark, but I may have to turn the MF level up a bit on the crossover.

So, the plan would be –

Rewire the speaker
Possibly redo the crossover
Try another set of Alnico drivers
Possibly try a different horn on the MF drivers (Le Cleac'h?), or at least damp the living heck out of the Altec 511s
Try the JBL 2405 tweeters I have lying here
Perhaps try a different bass driver (803?)
Perhaps try and dampen the bass cabinet
Give up on VotT as I'll never get it right


The last step may well come before I've actually gone through all the other steps. I am not cut out to be a speaker designer, and the Altec project seems to mean that to a certain degree I need to become one.

Vintage drivers such as the Altecs mean that I really need to measure every drive unit to be sure that the two sides of the stereo pair sound reasonably close to each other.

I have done a lot of reading about horns, drivers, crossovers, enclosures and other things. I think I'm capable of understanding much if not all of it, but maths is not my greatest strength, I find it pretty hard going in some places.

If I want to continue on the path I have started on, I will need to invest in some basic measuring tools. I'll also need to acquaint myself with loudspeaker software. Lots of work to do. I do have a job and I do have a social life. Do I really want to invest so much time and effort in a pair of bloody loudspeakers?

I'm currently having a crisis of confidence.

That said, I still really, really like the speakers and am very much enjoying my time with them. I was listening last night to a wonderful new cello CD my gf bought recently

http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000MGB0LK.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V46827904_.jpg

and was very happy with the sound. The cello is a very hard instrument to get right, the Altecs coped wonderfully.

Audiophilia is a terrible desease.

It all sounds like a lot of hard work to me, but then I'm a typical lazy-arsed Englishman. I'd probably have given up long ago and bought a pair of Audiovector M3 Signature floorstanders.

Markus I know that feeling, I look at crossover networks and circuit diagrams and I am right back at school ,with my mind wondering to some happier place, what will you do, do you think, Pete, 'I should coco' seems to have it all sussed out! You could ask Mike to make two pairs of his new speakers I bet they will be interesting, let me know what you decide to do regards Keith.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/theroyalmoseleys/scan0001%20small%202.jpg

Miles recommends.....Sorry about the pic quality.

If it's good enough for Miles, it's good enough for me ... Thanks for the picture, Martin.

my worry is that I'll end up with something like this

http://www.magazine-audio.com/images/pavillon/1.jpg

(full story here (http://magazine-audio.com/actualite/reportages/140), but it's in French)

and I really don't want to. As the owner of that system says,

Après avoir entendu une bonne chambre de compression associée à un pavillon de qualité, on se dit que c’est la seule solution. Reste à savoir comment associer et utiliser ce type de transducteur.

"Once you've heard a good compression driver married to a quality horn, you'll be convinced it's the only solution. Then you need to find out how to use this type of transducer and what to use it with".

Horns offer a closer glimpse at the music behind the recording than any other type of transducer I've heard so far, but getting them right requires a heroic effort, Romy the Cat's Macondo system being another case in point.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Playback/Site_images/Macondo5_2.jpg

I'd need a separate listening room for that, I could not fit it into my living room. And I do not want a separate listening room, from my observations that typically leads to divorce and separation.

My solution would have to remain living-room-compatible.

You could move into one of those horn speakers; you could fit a small family in there!

Markus you have been to Thomas' place recently haven't you? I thought thecCessaros were fantastic,( I could just about get them in my room). Regards Keith.

Yes, I really like the Cessaros too (I have some doubts over the bass performance of that system, but that is most probably of Thomas's room; the bass is superb but not quite up to the standard of the rest). But they are too expensive for me. And they are also not a design I'd want to have in my living room.

Yes my wife calls them the fridge freezers! Before I went to Thomas, just looking at the Cessaro site ,I really thought the Alphas would be about four feet tall, really quite diminutive, crikey when I actually saw them in the flesh and saw how big they were! But it is like our French friend said,once you have heard a compression driver in a good horn design there is no other alternative. Munich?

Markus,
have you ever tried pairing your VotTs with The Altmann's BYOB amplifier? As far as I can remember, the maker of it has a huge respect for your speakers and apparently it is a great combination according to a friend whose ears are to be trusted.
It maybe be cheaper than Shindo's, although not as sexy, I'd agree.

I guess it should be no surprise that Miles liked horns? Although there is no broken Hardon mute on them - shurley shome misthtake?

I also quite like the way that the cat themed mega horn system even has horn shaped rugs!

I also quite like the way that the cat themed mega horn system even has horn shaped rugs!That apparatus seems to leak oil somewhere, though.

Markus,
have you ever tried pairing your VotTs with The Altmann's BYOB amplifier? As far as I can remember, the maker of it has a huge respect for your speakers and apparently it is a great combination according to a friend whose ears are to be trusted.
It maybe be cheaper than Shindo's, although not as sexy, I'd agree.

Question not for me, but we tried it with an old 604 and worked absolutely well, and the amp liked good old Tannoy dual concentrics as well, even a Tannoy 15 DMTII studio monitor was handled with elegance. The BYOB works really well with Zu Druid too. There is control, smoothness, dynamics and prat in a really surprising way.

anubis, endust, can you tell me more about the BYOB, please. Is it a chip amp or a discrete one?

If it's good enough for Miles, it's good enough for me ... Thanks for the picture, Martin.

my worry is that I'll end up with something like this

http://www.magazine-audio.com/images/pavillon/1.jpg

(full story here (http://magazine-audio.com/actualite/reportages/140), but it's in French)



and I really don't want to. As the owner of that system says,



"Once you've heard a good compression driver married to a quality horn, you'll be convinced it's the only solution. Then you need to find out how to use this type of transducer and what to use it with".

Horns offer a closer glimpse at the music behind the recording than any other type of transducer I've heard so far, but getting them right requires a heroic effort, Romy the Cat's Macondo system being another case in point.

http://www.goodsoundclub.com/Playback/Site_images/Macondo5_2.jpg

I'd need a separate listening room for that, I could not fit it into my living room. And I do not want a separate listening room, from my observations that typically leads to divorce and separation.

My solution would have to remain living-room-compatible.

I do like and appreciate what Romy has done. From time alignment, to careful selection and testing I know he has done it all.

This type of thing is beyond the reach of all but a) the wealthy b) extreme hobbyist.


On a side note, driving home from the heathrow show yesterday it struck me how few homes in the UK have a living room in excess of about 15 feet by 10.. even expensive houses. It made me wonder how many of the speakers I'd seen that day could reasonably be used in the homes I'd seen.

anubis, endust, can you tell me more about the BYOB, please. Is it a chip amp or a discrete one?

As I know it is using a chip, but it really does not matter, when you hear it, you can not put it in any of the "typical sounding categories", it does not sound as a tube or an ss or a chip amp, it has a tone which is really something special. I honestly can say it is one of the most engaging, musical, but at the same time one of the most neutral amp I have ever had a chance to live with. I just could not find any fault in its sound. For some 750 euro... plus a car battery.

The Altmann BYOB amp looks like it comes as a circuit board, are there finished versions?

Nick

The Altmann BYOB amp looks like it comes as a circuit board, are there finished versions?


a PCB fixed to a spruce board, that is the finished version. no casing.

markus, i don't know anything else apart from what was written above. i am surprised with a popularity of the altmann products in general considering a non-conformist approach. i assume it must sounds great when you decide to live with open PCBs all around your living room and a huge tractor's battery (optima red).

a PCB fixed to a spruce board, that is the finished version. no casing.

Well, that's certainly minimalist. I guess one might add an acrylic or perspex cover.

Nick

I wouldn't normally comment on a private visit to hear someone's system but as Markus has invited me to, here are a few thoughts. Markus has a very nice flat on the first? floor of an apartment block. The room containing the hifi is large with a dining area at one end and a very high ceiling (3-4 m from memory) Two walls house an extensive collection of books and magazines. I can quite understand why some speakers might sound rather lost under such circumstances. Markus also illustrated the variations in the room's acoustics by moving from one position to another and speaking in each place. There is room for a little judicious room treatment although it may require the services of someone with the correct equipment to do it properly. The Altecs are against the back wall, toed in slightly and (if I recall) are just away from the corners. The electronics and turntable are near the right hand wall. A sofa is placed at something like 4 metres from the speakers and this and a largish part of Markus's record collection serves to divide the listening area from the dining area.

We listened to a variety of music including some Tchaikovsky and jazz on the record player, and some further jazz, Gotan Project, solo piano and some rock & pop stuff on the CD player.

As said above I did enjoy the easy quality with which the speakers energised the room. My own speakers are not a million miles from these in concept so this way of presenting the music was familiar to me. I liked the gentle and unforced quality of the bass. While this wasn't as extended as some would like it had a very natural quality which people who listen to live unamplified music would recognise. I did find the midrange a little coarse and uneven with certain notes or certain phrases of vocals emphasised perhaps more than they should have been. I suspected that this peakiness might (in part) have been coming from the ceramic magneted midrange driver which was probably never intended for serious music playback at home but more for high spl PA work. Markus showed us the Alnico drivers he also had and I suggested they might give a little more refinement. It does also sound as though the 2405's might need to be pressed into service sooner rather than later.
All of the proposals suggested above might be benef