Trying to anticipate what can I expect from ATC 20 ASL Pro, I paid this weekend a visit to a friend who has 1996' version of passive 20s (Vifa tweet, the same as mine), matched with Krell KSA 100, Mark Levinson Madrigal preamp and Quad CDP.

Although impressively clean & neutral, the sound somehow lacked life and emotion, being more clinical, "in yer face" and almost harsh than subtle and seducing. PRaT (sorry for mentioning it) was not very evident. I ended a session with headache. I was really wondering if this I can also expect from active 20s?

How this could be avoided and how to get more musicality out of ATCs? My initial idea was to keep a number of components down to minimum and to plug a CD player (or DAC) with volume control directly into ATCs. Now I'm thinking about a decent, fully balanced valve pre-amp that would inhale some life to them. Or would something digital such as TacT serve it better?

Bizzarely enough, the same guy who sold me ATCs offered Krell KAV 250p preamp for almost a nonsense price. Not sure if this would be a match from heaven though, but it costs peanuts. Any thoughts? KAV 250p plus ATCs plus valve-CDP?

What about the ATC CA-2 or SCA-2 preamp?

*Bizzarely enough, the same guy who sold me ATCs offered Krell KAV 250p preamp for almost a nonsense price. *
There's a good reason for that.

The only valve pre I've tried with an active ATC is a Nagra PLL which worked pretty good.

ATC's little preamp is dreadful as a Krell pre.

The ATC CA2 is excellent, a perfect match for the speakers.

-- Ian

I had the CA2 and Active 20's and your description of clinical and lacking life is spot on in my listening room. It did everything, was loud and all that with the notes in the right order but I just stopped listeing to much music :-(

The EAR 864 valve preamp went very nicely with my ATC50s and made them a bit cuddlier. You can also get a cheaper, line stage only version called the 834L which is available in the "deluxe" chrome bling finish or in the cheaper black.

There is a used example of the 864 and the 834L deluxe for sale on this site:
http://www.shadowaudio.co.uk/usedequipment/

Having said that, I now use the CA2 with mine and I am very happy with the sound. No question that it plays music but I can see that some might find it too neutral.

Andrew

PS. There is a bargain 834L here for under £400:

http://www.centralaudio.co.uk/

They are a decent shop - I've bought from them myself.

Andrew

Glad to see that I wasn't hallucinating. If ATC pre-active combination is anywhere close to ATC passive/Krell power/Mark Levinson combo I listened, than definitely ATC's possibilites aren't fully exploited. There was far too much of SS sterility in the air. Tonally correct, yes, superbly imaging, yes, but not very exciting. Music doesn't get through.
This is silly - ATCs might have all the potential to better with ease any Spendor that is more coloured but much more joyful. ATCs have to be forced somehow to bloom - there must be a way to achieve this.
EARs or another good valve preamp is a good idea, although ATC users seldomly support this.

I'd buy some different loudspeakers, ATC's aren't for everyone.

I used to own the ATC SCA2 and found it very neutral clean etc but musically lacking. So now use an Ayre K1-xe which is much more musical. Should be taking delivery of my active 50's shortly to replace my active 20 towers.

Jonathan.

I'd buy some different loudspeakers, ATC's aren't for everyone.

well if it isn't music then why so much fuzz about them?

ATC make competent monitors. So do a lot of other manufacturers.

You may well find for instance that you prefer the balance of a Harbeth monitor, or the detail of a Revel or Merlin.

This does not make you wrong, it simply shows that you don't have to rely on others to make decisions. All loudspeakers distort the signal in various ways, their interaction with the room adding further compromises. Which form of distortion do you prefer?

I have used EAR 834L with ATC 35 and various power amps. EAR injects some vitality compared to SS preamps, bass is more punchy, but does not go just as low as a good SS. It works well with VIFA tweeter IMO. EAR will not give you any "tubey" , warm or lush sound, it has a lot of energy and in that respect maybe even a bit one-dimentional. (35s do differ from the rest of the ATC line though)

being a couch potato, how's about a valve pre with remote? not sure if EAR has one?

I would recommend you seek out a S/H Joule Electra LA100 on Audiogon.

It's very highly regarded by many, will add a little body to proceedings, and they do come up with remote control. Cost around $2K

Obviously if you are committed to the ATCs'

From my own experience, Active 20s greatly benefit from a good valve preamp, and possibly more importantly, from the right source! I've just bought an Audio Synthesis DAX Decade, and this sounds vastly more natural and fuller (or whatever the opposite of "lean" is) than any other CD player I've heard in my system. The ATCs sound positively huge, with a really rich, realistic tonality, whereas with other players they tended to sound a bit small, grey, dry, and (depending heavily on the player) a bit top-heavy.

A good valve pre will help to ameliorate a poorly matched source, but by far the better solution is to get the source right in the first place!

Dunc

From my own experience, Active 20s greatly benefit from a good valve preamp, and possibly more importantly, from the right source! I've just bought an Audio Synthesis DAX Decade, and this sounds vastly more natural and fuller (or whatever the opposite of "lean" is) than any other CD player I've heard in my system. The ATCs sound positively huge, with a really rich, realistic tonality, whereas with other players they tended to sound a bit small, grey, dry, and (depending heavily on the player) a bit top-heavy.

A good valve pre will help to ameliorate a poorly matched source, but by far the better solution is to get the source right in the first place!

Dunc

Fair point - they are very revealing of the source, which may not always be a good thing in some systems!

Andrew

I'd be very surporised (having owned both a Meridian 518 into DAX and then a Dax Decade) if the system were not to sound vastly better using the digital volume control of the AS rather than going through a £500 EAR. I did the comparison with a £3k Audio Research pre and the system was better without the valve pre in place. But then I do not use analogue sources, and the AS option works best as digital-only.

salman

I'd be very surporised (having owned both a Meridian 518 into DAX and then a Dax Decade) if the system were not to sound vastly better using the digital volume control of the AS rather than going through a £500 EAR. I did the comparison with a £3k Audio Research pre and the system was better without the valve pre in place. But then I do not use analogue sources, and the AS option works best as digital-only.

salman

Hi Salman,

OT: don't know if you remember me, but I threatened to buy your Mana rack several years ago and then folded following an injection of sad financial reality...

Were you referring to my setup? I'm actually using the DAX Decade (w/ balanced outs) straight into the ATCs. For vinyl, I'm awaiting delivery of an EAR 834P, which is just a phono stage, but which has a volume control built in. I plan on running this straight into the ATCs as well, swapping the cable between the two sources as and when. Not a major hassle and sound quality should be excellent without a preamp!

And yes, the DAX Decade is one hell of a CD player! What are you currently using as your front end? How is it different/better than the DAX?

Dunc

Hi Dunc

Yes, I do remember you - hope you are well. Didn;t you first get the 10s from Jack Lawson some time ago....

Simply switched to room correction in the TacT, first the 2.0 (one on Ebay right now as it happens, and their second hand prices make them shockingly good value, even if they are not upgradable) and then to a 2.2x. Am using this for plain vanilla two channel just now into 50ASls but will be constructing a dipole sub soon.

I know that there has been a lot of discussion around room correction but to my ears it works and works unequivocally. Less necessary in my current (quite big, 22 foot by 20ish) asymmetric room then in the previous flat, but nice nonetheless

re: vinyl
if you look at Oxford Audio consultants, they have a ADC for a Decade going very cheaply. This is a verty specialist product, designed *only* for the Decade. You'd still need a phono RIAA pre, but in your shoes I'd buy it, and maybe the multi-input passion that goes with it. I bet the quality of this is far ahead of the EAR (which I have heard).

But then maybe you want to enjoy the hair shirt practice of switching cables :)

cheerio
salman

eurgh

converting lovely analogue into nasty digital and then back into analogue again?

:S

:)

I inquired yesterday at ATC on an upgrade for my March 1999 ATC SCM 20 ASL Pro to a current version.

They answered that there is no need to upgrade to Seas Excel tweeter:

"They would have been fitted with the Vifa Tweeter. There isn't really any difference between the new version and the ones you have, the baffles are just cosmetically different everything else is the same."

What a strange company - don't upgrade, use simple cables, 50£ CD player.....

Hehe, good old ATC. I remember ringing once to ask for recommendations for CD players - what do they use for testing/demoing their top end speakers? (Here I had a 1200 quid Meridian and was thinking of upgrading.) They replied along the lines of "Denon do a good CD player, shouldn't be more than 200 quid or so".

I love the idea of sticking a 200 quid Denon in front of 15 grand's worth of top end ATC actives, if only for the comedy/two-fingers-to-audiophoolery value...

Then again, I think the ATC engineers might be surprised how good their speakers can actually sound!

Dunc

What a strange company - don't upgrade, use simple cables, 50£ CD player.....

Nothing strange about that. They're engineers, so they know what matters.

-- Ian

I will be replacing my old active 20's with new 50's today so will be able to tell you first hand if there is a difference between the tweeters.

I would be surprised if it's a huge diff though.

Jonathan.

I will be replacing my old active 20's with new 50's today so will be able to tell you first hand if there is a difference between the tweeters.

I would be surprised if it's a huge diff though.

Jonathan.

Careful with your back when you are moving them around - they are very heavy!

I have both the latest active 10A-2s and the latest active 50ASLs. I am pretty sure that the tweeter in the 50s is a significantly better unit. Not saying that the 10s are bad, just the 50s are more delicate and subtle. I am fairly sure that this is not just the top end of a superior midrange driver in the 50s showing its talents, although that may have something to do with it.

The tweeter in the 50s crosses over (to the mid-range driver) at 3.5kHz whereas the one in the 10s crosses over (to the low/mid driver) at 2.8kHz.

Andrew

Careful with your back when you are moving them around - they are very heavy!

I have both the latest active 10A-2s and the latest active 50ASLs. I am pretty sure that the tweeter in the 50s is a significantly better unit. Not saying that the 10s are bad, just the 50s are more delicate and subtle. I am fairly sure that this is not just the top end of a superior midrange driver in the 50s showing its talents, although that may have something to do with it.

The tweeter in the 50s crosses over (to the mid-range driver) at 3.5kHz whereas the one in the 10s crosses over (to the low/mid driver) at 2.8kHz.

Andrew

Andrew, yes I keep forgetting that the midrange is also very special, certainly should improve on the mid/bass unit in the 20's. My old 20's also crossed at 2.8kHz I believe.

Jonathan.

Andrew, the tweeter in the 10s is actually different again, being the same as the one in the various passive models. The Vifa tweeter in the older 20s, 50s, 100s, etc is a different model, and probably closer in performance to the new SEAS tweeter than the one in the 10s, which is very obviously inferior to the SEAS one.

Dunc

another issue with ATC actives.... how's about connecting single end (non balanced) preamp outputs from a preamp or a CD player to balanced inputs at ATCs?

anything important with it? is sonic deterioration really that noticable if you don't go fully balanced and how it would be described?

the problem is that so many affordable & decent stuff is not fully balanced....

ATC's own CA2 preamp, designed to be used with their actives, has unbalanced outputs (on XLR connectors, but not balanced), and works absolutely fine. If you want to use extremely long cables (> 10 metres) it might be an issue, but that's quite unlikely in most domestic setups.

I wouldn't get too hung up about buying balanced gear.

-- Ian

What Ian said.

ATC can supply you with a wiring diagram for wiring the XLR-to-RCA lead if you need it. But to be honest, it seems to be the "norm" for commercially available RCA-to-XLRs anyway, so you probably don't have to worry about it at all.

Dunc

apologies for revamping an old thread, but this may be of an importance to some ATC users.

following a recommendation from some experienced audioasylumers, i've just spent a few days with a preamp that shed a completely new light on ATC 20 actives and its possibilites, at least to me.

electrocompaniet EC4.7 is in a completely different league to a number of preamps i have tried with ATCs such as krell kav-250p, EAR 864, EAR 834L, cary SLP-98L, ATC's small preamp, mark levinson 20 etc.

no other combination even came close to rather glorious synergy between EC and ATC. the sound is sweet, musical and very soft, still dynamic, detailed and full of drive.

it completely removes all the side-effects usually associated with small ATCs - the sound is not forward, not lean, not spitty, not in your face, not dry. the sound is so noble and posh and still so realistic that a friend of mine - a long time user of sonus faber (currently with extrema) - shaked his head in disbilief for hours.

ocer the weekend i have changed 3 CDPs, including £40 pioneer DV-370, quad 99 CDP-II and thule CDP-150B. system played shockingly good even with pioneer DVD. some colours and finesse were missing but overall it did a job.

strangely, system worked more stable with kimber PBJ ICs than with $700 transparent audio's balanced musiclink super. kimber was less ambitious and more energetic while musiclink noticeably widened frequency extremes and dimensions of soundstage, but somehow sounded too muddled. although, it is to be added that we played it straight from the box.

EC preamp sounded noticeably better with a power cable from transparent audio.

ATC should OEM this product from electrocompaniet and repack it under ATC badge. that would do much better justice to their speakers.

the best thing about EC preamps is that they are horribly underrated due to business troubles of the manufacturer so they are very cheap s/h. currently they range from £300 for EC4.5 via £400 for EC4.6 to £500 for EC4.7 and even for this money they are hard to sell.

anyone has some for sale?

it's me again with some new remarks on ATC/preamp matching.... after living happily some 6 months with EC4.7 Mk2, i have a new baby at home. inital listenings of EAR 864 proved this recommendation to be the right thing. i know this is yesterday news for many of you out there, but my home dem of a smaller 834L wasn't that spectucular as a performance of its bigger brother.

864 nicelly followed on the EC's big, ballsy performnace, generally unveiling the sound plus adding a more natural timbre and the most explosive bass i've ever heard from a valve thingy! actually it sounds like a great crossover from both worlds - a very pleasant, organic tone, timbre and fluid on one side, and immediacy, PRaT, transients and speed on another.
the piece i have is s/h and hasn't been on for a few months - i have no idea for how long it has to be on to re-warm up, but it just sounds like a great fun after 2 hours on. could be it is just a synergy between ATC and EAR but it looks like a sure keeper, unless something dramatic happens this thursday on a big TVC bakeoff at my home: a state-of-art DIY TVC vs promitheus reference vs DIY S&B 102 copper cost-no-object TVC. we'll see.

What a load of nonsense.

What a load of nonsense.


blame it on hormons of hapiness, mate:)

Has it occurred to you that the ATCs just play whatever is fed in?

As opposed to ...?

Are they completely neutral?

I would certainly agree with james here, the atc's sound exactly the same whatever signal is fed them.

A £200 CD player should certainly get the best from them.

Probably the most consistent loudspeaker I have heard.

They sound exactly the same whatever signal is fed them!

As opposed to ...?

Isobariks. Haha. Yes they are totally neutral.

There's a nice pair of ART speakers up on hififorsale, a snip at £12K. could try some of these.....

Looks like our white furry friend is changing his kit yet again....

I would certainly agree with james here, the atc's sound exactly the same whatever signal is fed them.

A £200 CD player should certainly get the best from them.

Probably the most consistent loudspeaker I have heard.

billy woodman, is that you?!

They sound exactly the same whatever signal is fed them!

I would put it as they sound (almost - no loudspeaker is completely neutral) exactly like the signal feeding them. However, the better the signal, the better they will sound. Any neutral sounding speaker like ATCs will merely reveal the source signal in all its glory (or otherwise) if the source signal is crap! As usual, garbage in, garbage out... That's hi-fi.

Mike

The ATCs definitely do work well with the 864. I had one on loan for a period and thought it was a very good sound, especially with vinyl (the phono section is based on the 834P, which is gorgeous). That said, it's not totally neutral... There's a sweetness in the treble that though seductive, gave me the impression of artifice, and the whole sound has a [mild] valve glow.

Of course, the fact my only criticisms are sweetness and a hint of warmth gives some idea as to the quality of the 864, and how good it sounds with the ATCs. :) I know at least one other person who feeds his Active 20s with an 864 and is more than happy with the result.

I would say that my DAX Decade sounds more detailed, clearer, and tighter plugged straight into the ATCs than via an 864 though. But there is something to be said for adding a bit of valve romance... As such, if I ever feel like I can afford plonking a big fat wad of cash down for a preamp, the 864 will be at the top of my shortlist.

Dunc

In my opinion the sca2 pre is a good match,

Only last thursday i was listening to a system comprising of;-

Naim cds3

Atc sca2

atc 20asl towers

I must admit this combination was one of the best i've ever heard-truly awesome!!

Not cheap though!

Dunc

Correct!

However considering all options,one of the best sounds per pound.

dunc, you are right with stressing that 864 is not 100% neutral. i was also suprised to find a hint of romantic tone to it, especially that a smaller 834L was too lean for my taste. i guess this can be tuned a bit with tube rolling, although i found that stock tubes have a balance i somehow like: midrange quality of tube amps, but speed, dynamic and massive bass of SS. i think this can only be because of the output trannies - i yet have to hear a tube pre with such a deep, tuneful bass. considering this is achived with tubes that cost £2.50 a piece (EI new stock), this is another bonus - i won't have any problem leaving it on 24/7.

however, yes it is slightly coloured with upper mids but than i have to hear a neutral active preamp yet. the only preamp that sounded completely invisible in my system was a DIY TVC based on much better trannies than S&B 102s. i will have it on thursday again with me for a bake-off.

after hearing 6-7 preamps for a year or so (and owning some of them), i have no doubts 864 is a great match for ATCs but of course there are better products out there. could be that my stance is also based on how much i paid for it:) and that's another story - i can't think of anything right now that plays better, has balanced outs, a respectable phono section and (very important for ATCs) output transformers hence very low impedance and costs under 800 quid inc delivery to me.

The ATCs definitely do work well with the 864. I had one on loan for a period and thought it was a very good sound, especially with vinyl (the phono section is based on the 834P, which is gorgeous). That said, it's not totally neutral... There's a sweetness in the treble that though seductive, gave me the impression of artifice, and the whole sound has a [mild] valve glow.

Of course, the fact my only criticisms are sweetness and a hint of warmth gives some idea as to the quality of the 864, and how good it sounds with the ATCs. :) I know at least one other person who feeds his Active 20s with an 864 and is more than happy with the result.

I would say that my DAX Decade sounds more detailed, clearer, and tighter plugged straight into the ATCs than via an 864 though. But there is something to be said for adding a bit of valve romance... As such, if I ever feel like I can afford plonking a big fat wad of cash down for a preamp, the 864 will be at the top of my shortlist.

Dunc

I've posted on the 864/ ATC combination at length before. In summary, it works very well to beautify the ATC's neutrality by rolling off the highs slightly and by thickening the lows. It isn't a flabby valve amp and I probably could have lived with it forever with my active 50s if I hadn't gone down the pathe of developing my old hobby of live sound engineering and recording into something more commercial and more demanding of absolute accuracy in the playback system.

Andrew

andrew, so what preamp you use now, if any?

andrew, so what preamp you use now, if any?

For my active 50s, which I use for checking/pre-mastering as well as for general listening, I use the ATC CA2 (fed by a Benchmark DAC1). For my active 10s, which I use for mixing, I use a Lavry DA10 as both DAC and preamp.

Andrew

For anyone reading this thread and wanting to know how to make their active ATCs sound how they hoped they would, my advice is to find an EAR 864. An 868 is probably a good option too if you have the cash for new but I haven't heard it. I do think that having (truly) balanced connections makes a difference and probably saves money on cables. I have a Croft micronaut (2K equivalent prototype) which sounds fantastic through a Croft Twinstar powering Quad ESL57's (and solid state stuff too) but doesn't cut it with my SCM50's partly I'm sure because there's no balanced output. I have a Bryston bp25 which sounds 'straight wire' great in the right system but slightly strident and somehow lifeless through the ATCs. I put a Musical Fidelity x10d missing link in the tape loop (£100 off eBay, plus 2 cables). This tamed the stridency, added some body and life but muddled the clarity and bloomed the bass. Nice option to have temporarily but not a solution. I use a Benchmark DAC1 as a source by the way, which, like the ATC's doesn't really have any sound of it's own, so the pre is the key component in the chain for determining the sonic signature.

Ok so I've bitten the bullet and bought an EAR 864 and to my delight it has given me exactly what I 'd hoped for: maintaining the positive attributes of my other decent preamps but bringing the sound to life; as if lit from within. It's the same diffence I experienced changing my headphone amp from a very good solid state (Lehmann Black Cube) to the tube-driven Earmax. All the cliches about starting to hear the music & not the equipment etc are there. It's simply much more enjoyable. OK so maybe that's a personal preference about valves etc but I don't really believe there are many people who would disagree that the ...sound... is ...much....more ....enjoyable..... Though it does look kinda camp :)

yes i ended with exactly the same combination - 20ASL PRO + 864 - before i sold it all

honestly you can make it better for less money, ATCs are handicapted in a number of regions, upper mid transparency, HF extension and overall feeling of a bit processed sound thanks to compromised electronics inside. they do sound neutral in comparison with plenty of really bad speakers outhere. i would always take something like proac response 1 SC with a decent small class A amp, like sugden or first watt F5, half of the price

squirty says he has SCM50s. Your comments definitely do not apply to these loudspeakers.

Paul