Hi all,

I have been given the chance of acquiring a Linn AV5103. As this would be only used as a pre-amp (I've no need for for the video side), it would be a direct replacement for a late model Kairn.

Unfortunately, I can't try this out first so, do any of you have experience of going from a Kairn to a AV5103? Is it an upgrade? What are the differences soundwise? Your help would be much appreciated.

Regards from this little corner of Paradise,

Dave

It was a massive upgrade for me.

At their current prices, used AV5103s are a superb bargain for two channel and for straightforward 5-channel DD/DTS decoding.

Forget the video side, Linn have always been behind with the video facilities they offer.

Kevin

Yes, Kevin is right and I have made this move. So long as the price is right and the form factor is OK for you, it's fine to treat it as an audio preamp. No-one would ever know the difference by just looking at the front.

Hi Kevin & Steve,

Thanks for those replies, which seem to concur with the general opinion (and Linn's) that it is an upgrade to go to the AV5103. What did you find were the actual differences is audio terms? Could you possibly describe in what way was the upgrade "massive"? Thanks in advance,

Dave

I don't recall too clearly - it was approaching 10 years ago I made that step - but I would say more of a completely open window, removal of coloration one didn't think was there in the first place.

The only thing I had against the 5103 was the rubber keypad instead of the rock-solid-feeling buttons of the Kairn. I can't believe they used a rubber membrane-thing for what was then a very expensive preamp. Mind you, it didn't help that mine was a demo model. In practice it wasn't really important because of the quality remote.

A friend now has my 5103 in a cinema set-up, so one shouldn't assume it can't serve its original function even with today's equipment, so long as one doesn't insist on high-quality video coupling or higher data-rate audio formats. A built-in in bonus is the D/A with external inputs: at the time it allowed me to sell my Numerik because I could hear no difference vs. the internal D/A, and now it is being used for the digital stream from a Squeezebox mp3 streamer and for internet radio, so there's plenty of life left in it.

The 5103 is a great buy on the used market and to my ear does sound substantially better than a Kairn. But a word of caution: these are very complicated beasts to set up/ program.

If you buy one of these you will need to either spend many hours of time and frustration learning how to do it yourself, or pay a Linn shop to do the set up for you. It cost me only half an hour of labor to get it done ($30). Don't get me wrong, it is a great move. But don't expect to simply plug a 5103 in and have it work the way you did with your Kairn.

Hi go for it I bought a 5103 with BLUE screen,Totally rich & warm & open soundstage from the Kairn I didnt much like the Kairn I thought the LK1's MC phono was better,but if you like LP's ,I have a Trichord Dino phono stage & the results are far superior to the Kairn,dont think much of the inbuilt DA the Karik/Numerik is so much better than just the karik being plugged into the 5103 DA,there's one on Ebay at the moment go for it you wont regret,

Dave,

Just to add support to the foregoing. I moved from a kolektor to a 5103 - imagine the jaw dropping effect that had! All I can say is that the difference was much more pronounced than changing the LK100's to klouts!
As has also been mentioned, it is fiddly to set up, but persevere, once youve been in and out of the menus a few times you begin to get the hang of it!!

Steve.

I also made the change from the Kolektor to AV5103 and of course the Kolektor is inferior to the Kairn in the first place. The AV5103 is a cracker. Massively more detailed, you can definitely hear instruments and backing vocals etc. which didn't exist through the Kolektor. And it does a great job of instrument "textures" too (from the talented Ikemi).

But a word of caution: these are very complicated beasts to set up/ program.


I set mine up for 2-channel use in about 5 or 10 minutes. It's only a case of plugging the CD/tuner interconnects into the back, then going into the source menu, choose the socket number at the back, arrow through the options for source name (e.g. CD) and whether Stereo, Prologic, etc. Job done. Don't be put off by the set up. It's a piece of cake for 2-channel.

I set mine up for 2-channel use in about 5 or 10 minutes. It's only a case of plugging the CD/tuner interconnects into the back, then going into the source menu, choose the socket number at the back, arrow through the options for source name (e.g. CD) and whether Stereo, Prologic, etc. Job done. Don't be put off by the set up. It's a piece of cake for 2-channel.

Congratulations are well deserved for your facile programming. Perhaps I over stated the matter, but for the average person some awareness still needs to be raised. Linn dealers whom I have spoken to consider it to be about the most complicated piece of equipment Linn has made. Have you tried adjusting the balance like you would for a Kairn or Kolector? Well you can’t. You’ve got to hook it back up to the T.V., go into set up mode, etc. There are a lot of little things like this with the AV 5103.

But remember, I still agree it is absolutely awesome for the price (in fact mine will soon be up for sale at a very juicy number). I also think no one should decide not to buy one because of the minor difficulties involved. The great sound overwhelmingly out weighs these small obstacles. I am just trying to warn coxybabe that if he thinks he can simply plug this in and go, the way you can with most preamplifiers, he is going to have a frustrating afternoon the day it arrives. If he is prepared to spend a little time learning about it or take it to a professional, the purchase is still golden.

Perhaps a good idea is to ask a seller to draw up a four-way table of the configuration: input socket name, source-type, soft-assigned name, and assigned remote button. Then, for example, if the buyer sees that analog1 is type CD, called "Ikemi" and is assigned to the remote's cd button, that configuration can be used until it is fully understood.

newmanoc said: But remember, I still agree it is absolutely awesome for the price (in fact mine will soon be up for sale at a very juicy number).

As a matter of interest then, what are you changing to when you sell yours?

newmanoc said:

As a matter of interest then, what are you changing to when you sell yours?

I just bought a Klimax Kontrol on Audiogon. I have been in awe of this preamp since I first heard it, but didn't think I would be able to afford it for a long, long time. Now that it is in my house, I still feel at times like kneeling down and crying, "I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy!"

You lucky, lucky...!

Hi all,
Thanks for your replies, based upon which I have decided to go ahead and take up the offer of the AV5103: seemingly, I have nothing to lose.
I will come back once it's installed and give you all my comments.
A bientôt,
Dave

Hi Newmanoc,

I know the feeling!!! I've had my Klimax Kontrol for about 6 months and it is awesome. I use it with Klimax Solo 500's and just can't stop playin records/CDs. Even when I walk past I have to just touch it. It is so tactile and looks amazing. I know that I'm sad!!!!

Cheers

Graham

Nice to see someone else shares the feeling. Klimax Solo's are still (well) beyond my reach. But I'm going to be going active with Espeks using Chakra amps. I am absolutely stunned by the difference between active and passive Espeks. Going active turns what I have always thought of as a competent but unexciting speaker into the most wonderful thing I have heard in (and well above) its price range.

Good luck with the 5103, it's a very good preamp.
Owned LK1, Kairn, Bonnec Timpano and Exotik in the past and 5103 is clearly better than Kairn, almost as good as Exotik if the 5103 is a late model.

btw, I also use Kontrol, had my a year and use it with 2*C4200 on aktive Akurate 212.

Spike, what speaker do you use?

Hi again all,

Well, I trekked 'cross country yesterday and picked up the AV 5103 plus 5101 handset: back home, I hoisted out the Kairn and installed the new toy. Nothing worked and the set-up was, as you all advised, beyond comprhension. Yup ..... needed a television to really be able to see the drop down menus. Not impressed at this stage as my music room is just that, for listening to music and thus no tele. What's worse is that all the "boxes" are hidden in a purpose built cupboard, making access to the rear of units difficult. To bed, a grumpy old man.
As always, a good night's sleep seems to turn grumpy into optimistic and think along the lines of "Linn made this as an AV processor rather than a pre-amp and so why wouldn't there be a tele for set up", I put my thinking cap on and unhooked the LCD screen that is in the bathroom (yes, I'm a sad soul really). Being only a 15" model, it's easily manoevrable for the set up. Ahh, that's much easier: manual to hand and several hours of programming the thing via drop down menus, and finally all was up and running. Well, sort of ..... paper thin sound and lacking.
Cup of tea ... head scratch .... ping!!!!! Kairns reverse the phase. Switch off everything, finish cup of tea as capacitors discharge and reverse the speaker terminals on the Klout. Switch back on and put a reference record on the LP12 and ........
Ye Gods ....... what the f**k has happened? Sure ... more detail for sure (not tons by the way) but at what cost. All I wanted to do was run out of the room: which I did. I left the thing playing repeatedly a CD to allow it to warm up and settle down. After several hours, a slight improvement. Still unlivable with though. It's as if all the music has been stripped of emotion: it's glarery, metallic, hard and devoid of emotion: all top end and robbed of base and lower mid. Sure, the dynamics and detail are in all improved but at what cost? Bangs for your bucks yes: to enjoy music, no.
Missus called back in once she had removed the blood from her ears and 4 records chosen for their "analytical" properties: listened at level 64 on volume control and mental notes made. AV5103 out, speaker terminals reversed and Kairn back in place: critical listening of same 4 record made at volume 64. Result? For both of us - bliss: sure, a small loss of detail but we could listen to the music. With the Kairn, all I want to do is turn the volume up: with the 5103, all I wanted to do was turn the volume down. No brainer.
A small prolonged listening to the Kairn and a little nagging voice piped up in my head "You're missing the detail!!!3 S**t, this is really not fair. I have thus decided today to do the same test in the room with the televsion, using the DVD player as scource and testing an early model Kairn against the AV5103. It is an easier proposition for setting up and will allow a better route to side by side testing: also, I will be able to leave the 5103 hooked up for longer to allow any bedding down. Let's face it, the digital scource is crap anyway, I don't listen to music off of the tele (Sky!!!), so this can be more long term.
So guys, what is the upgrade path from a Kairn that will give that extra detail of the AV5103 without the metallic, digital sound? Or have I ballsed up somewhere?
Despondent from Dordogneshire, France

Is the 5103 very old with green display or a late model with blue display?
They were (as all Linn) improved over the years.
BUT... it should really be much better than Karin regardless.

Wonder if it's configured to pass the DSP (=digital processor)? That kill the musicallity.:(
Havn't used 5103 so I dont know all settings, but you should send the signal directly to the output sockets.

Any 5103 owner that can help out here?

Another thought, check that you have the phase arriving to the preamp on the correct pin in the power cord. I have seen some power cables being "twisted" inside...

Dont give up yet!:p

Hi Linn nut,

Speakers are Linn Kabers!!!!! I intend on changing these in the very near future. I am interested in Shahinian Obelisks or Linn Akurates. Front ends are LP12, Ekos II, Akiva, Lingo & Linto and an Ikemi.

Cheers

Graham

The bypassing or not of the digital processor is from the "SURROUND" mode (button on right-hand side of front panel). The default for the source should be Stereo (in the Source Setup menu), but you can just press the front button and it cycles through Stereo, Prologic, Limbik, Party, etc. Be worth checking it's in Stereo mode (although Party to my ears sounds slightly more dynamic, in a 2-channel set-up). Mine is configured purely for 2-channel, so I get pretty odd results if a source is on Prologic, etc mode.

Other than that, I can't think what could be incorrectly set up as the subwoofer settings, speaker size, time delay and all that multi-channel buggeration only apply when you're in the digital Prologic type modes.

I've never compared mine to a Kairn so can't comment on the expected difference. 5103 should be better though...?

[So my classified ad for a 5103 is hardly attractive now that you've had a bad 5103 experience! Look forward to you achieving musical bliss!]

Right, I've installed it in the room with the tele (kitchen/everyday eating area), replacing the Kairn that was there. A direct input from the DVD player as scource gives the basic set-up. Astounding difference here.
PLUG FOR Linds: THE AV5103 IS MUCH BETTER THAN A KAIRN!!!!!
Yup, the difference is chalk & cheese with oodles more detail and dynamics. Here's the rub though:
a). It's a LG DVD player
b). The interconnect is a cheapo bog standard freebie with the DVD player.
c). No dedicated mains supply.
d). Amp is a LK280
e). Speakers are JM Focal Labs book-shelvers.

So ..... relevantly low end system which evidently allows the AV5103 to strut its stuff.

The main listening room is much higher spec though:
a). LP12 Ittock LVII Koetsu rosewood as scource
b). Linto as phonostage
c). Klout as amp
d). Kef Reference 104/2s as speakers
e). Dedicated mains spur with triple plaited supply: ditto for mains leads
f). Van den Hul interconnect throughout: mc golds from LP12 to Linto & Magnum for speaker leads.
It does seem to be "horses for courses". My main system already had good detail using the Kairn (the dedicated mains spur & its cabling provided the greatest lifting of the clag veiling the sound's detail): the Av5103 just seems to "overpolish" an already detailed set-up and yes, provide a few extra missing details.
I rechecked the set-up and did find that the speaker distances were wrong: 2.7metres instead of 4metres. I would be surprised if that were the cause of the disappointments in the main listening room though, although something to check out at a later date.
The AV5103 is an early model with the green display, Linn nut. It's also set up in stereo mode.
Please keep your thoughts coming and I'll update as things change (if they do).
Again for all those looking at Linds' AV5103 ad: 'tis a good pre-amp so don't hesitate - good price too!

Thanks for all your input.
Slightly less grumpy old man from this little corner of Paradise

Blue screen.Late spec.

Quote from Coxybabe above...

'So guys, what is the upgrade path from a Kairn that will give that extra detail of the AV5103 without the metallic, digital sound? Or have I ballsed up somewhere?..'

Dear all, ... excuse the long span between posts, just searched for this one.
I know exactly what coxybabe's thinking.
Just picked up a late 5103 to improve upon my Kairn, based on the countless positive reviews and comments here and elsewhere. There is more detail, in terms of amount of music, but like coxybabe, it's all one-dimensional and hashy. Upper-mids are overpowering the space. I too switched back to the Kairn (getting phase right too) and there is much more space and darkness between the musical strands. Soundstage is much bigger too, pushning wide of speakers, where as with 5103, the sound is more located to the speakers. Finding I have to turn up the 5103 to get the punch of sound I like from the Kairn, but it's too painful.

Here's my reasoning - hopefully others will have some ideas too.
I have passive Linn Kaber speakers - ruthlessly revealing and seems to suit the Kairn -
I have all the ambient effect sounds I need; the 5103 brings everything up in the mix, so while it sounds more detailed, it loses its believability.

I notice a lot of upgraders here use Keliedh and Ninka speakers, which are smoother/softer and so the extra impact of the 5103 is perceived as improvement.

I thought the non LK shape would be the biggest hurdle in this upgrade - but I am seriously considering selling it on after just a few days - have a feeling the shop will do 14-day return, actually.

Am I missing something here... it's a very late (6****** serial) blue display, DTS etc, and I did factory restore and have just the Ikemi in stereo mode plugged in.

Any ideas/help/suggestions/experiences.
Better sort this out soon, as this was seen by significant other as last hi-fi purchase before new central heating boiler gets put in (youch!)

regards

rob

ah the wonder of an entirely linn thread with no mention of (well you know).

yes the 5103 is wonderful though mine is currently playing up (fan problem leading to overheating)

still sounds amazing though.

rob

how is the mains organised in your system?

have you tried changing the fuse direction in the 5103?

what interconnects are you using?

any pictures of your setup?

Hi David,

Glad you're enjoying yours still. My fans haven't kicked in yet afaik. Unit runs at 40 C, which is a lot hotter than the ice-cool Kairn

The mains is probably not ideal by hi-fi standards... standard sockets on same loop as all the other downstairs stuff, plus the hi-fi's on a couple of 4-way extensions... however, the Kairn sound OK, I'm just comparing them.

I will change fuse direction, but have no idea how it will alter things.
Using standard Linn black wires.

Straight set up... 2 x LKi40 bi-amp passive Kaber.
Kabers positions have been tinkered with to get a very reasonable sound from Kairn - the Kabers were a bit toppy before, still are to be fair. But I have them hardly toe-ed and quite far apart. Maybe need to rethink speaker angles/set-up.

My main gripe with the 5103 is the slightly processed/compressed upper mid which tends to over egg things, and loses the 3D airy feel. With some music, there is more bass, but at the moment the Kairn feels more balanced, punctuated and spacious - musical!

Keep em coming - can't be just me and coxybabe who have probs...

Rob

Hi again,
Changed the fuse direction... I don't know if it was my imagination, but it did sound a bit better - to be fair, it was a well recorded disc, and quite a bit later at night. Maybe the 5103 is more sensitive to variations in mains.

Some more interesting things... when I go from "Stereo" mode to Limbik 3 or another setting, let it switch in, then go forward again to "Stereo" the sound makes a huge jump in volume and presentation - I have to turn it down between 3 and 5 steps. This 'bigger' sound, however, seems better in terms of space. If I then temporarily change source and then go back to CD again, it reverts to the old presentation. Is this 'direct'?

I only have 2 speakers connected. I changed the Physical set-up menu so that there is no centre or rears connected - but then lost all my surround options.

Does anybody know why the volume changed - is it going through different circuits?

There's a lot going for this bit of kit, but at the moment logic tells me the simplicity of the Kairn is better for straight music.

Rob