Zombie
11-05-06, 09:01 AM
From yahoogroups.com /quadhifi/ (just copied):
"A comparison between a refurbed pair of 57's with the new 2805's in a hi-fi studio just 100 kms away? With Quad amplification? Not without me!
Since I first read the announcement on the show, I couldn't wait for the day. I cleaned a bunch of my favourite "hi-fi show LP's", listened to them again on my system for perspective and have almost driven the shop owner nuts by calling him every five days asking if everything was OK and if the show was really taking place
When I entered the shop in Hamburg a truly gorgeous pair of light green 57's caught my attention right away. The colour looked totally new and totally vintage at the same time Mr Stein (no affiliation) and his colleagues (Quad Musikwiedergabe) way down southwest are doing a superb job at least as far as the looks are concerned.
On the other hand I was stunned by the totally modern looks of the 2805. Not quite my cuppa, but lots of people with more modern taste will definitely love them. They were the ones hooked up and I had to be kindly asked to take seat (and stop fumbling around with them testing the rigidity of the new construction yes, very rigid,
indeed) and have a listen.
It really was a nice system. The table was the eminent La Nouvelle Platine Verdier, the arm was the new EMT-309 (which received an overwhelming rave review by the vastly experienced and usually very picky Mr Roland Kraft at image hi-fi magazine), the cart an Ortofon SPU Classic, the brand new Auditorium 23 MC-step up (another rave review at image hi-fi) was feeding the Quad 24 P phono preamp (the dealer felt the SPU sounded much better so than directly into the 24
P) and the QC-24 preamp was feeding a pair of Quad II Classic monos.
Interconnects were made by Red Rose and speaker cables by Auditorium 23.
The first LP we played was one of his and I do not know the title but it was a Jimmy Witherspoon-Ben Webster collaboration. The first thing you noticed when you had some experience with Quads old or new was a certain restraint, at least if you are used in the 57's. Nothing wrong or unnatural, but the musicians were just not there with you, just a tad too distant to involve you completely and draw you into the music.
Could it be the recording? Micro-dynamics were superb, though and the
2805 does know the disappearing and imaging business very well.
Next came the 180gr Classic reissue of the RCA Belafonte Carnegie Hall (clearly better than a very clean 1S original imo). Day-O was really impressive, with extended highs, a certain seamlessness and natural hall reverb and the Jamaica Farewell demonstrated the excellent detail rendition (you could clearly hear the spit in Belafonte's throat) and, again, awesome micro-dynamics that system with those speakers was capable of. A real hi-fi experience!
Then the time had come for my long standing hi-fi show warhorse, the Classic reissue of the Mercury SR-90313 Ravel and Debussy with the Detroit Symphony under Paray (the guy always conducted too fast, but at least in this record this does not disturb or distract me too much). The original RFR Merc has even better timbre variety, but the Classic does the macro-dynamic and bass thing in an almost unbelievable way without neglecting the tone colour diversity. I have heard this record with all previous Quad planar speakers (in different systems, though). My 57's in my room, driven by refurbed Heathkit W-5M's (now *those* looks I like), make this LP sound just great with the exception of the tutti where nature sets the limits.
Here it comes: we heard the Rhapsodie Espagnole and I had never ever heard those superb macro-dynamics or this extremely deep, powerful, quick, very punchy bass from Quad speakers before (that would include an ARC/989 combo and I think memory does serve me well) and in these respects the 2805 is a true improvement and so much so that I know many folks who would buy it just for that. If quality bass and explosive dynamics are high in your book, I strongly recommend you to audition this speaker. Just imagine how it would do dynamics with a more powerful amp!
After that impressive performance we needed a couple of minutes to discuss it before playing the inevitable Classic Kind of Blue (180 gr). Of course the 2805 showed at once how different the timbres of the instruments of Miles, Trane and Cannon were and the hard to reproduce correctly opening notes of the Chambers solo were very deep and very fast. The primitive left-right stereo effect , a trademark of early Columbia jazz LP's (monos were much better, of course) was there in spades. Imaging was good, but here it was again, this reserved character, just a bit less involving than I know from home.
At this point another guy entered and he did have that smart, I-am-rich-and-can-show-it looks and he did bring a lot of well, CD's, if you know what I mean He had never before heard Quads or panels for that matter. He said he was definitely interested in buying if Well, that was the end of my chances to listen to my Classic RCA LSC-2465 Prokofiev Piano Concerto no.2 Frager/ParisCO/Leibowitz at that system, so I stood up and started searching the LP bins (that shop also has a fine selection of vintage classical and a great selection of vintage jazz LP's in competitive prices) They were listening to the whole shebang via a Roksan CD player. The guy was complaining that the Dire Straits and hip-hop don't sound as good as on his system at home I felt sick. A double Enja Eric Dolphy LP and an original Flying Dutchman Leon Thomas saved the moment (a cheap Ferras/Barbizet Brahms Double Concerto with Kletzki and LvB 1st Sonata on WRC, i.e. actually original EMI pressing, definitely helped, too, crowned by a still sealed Elliott Carter SQ nos. 1&2 on Nonesuch for six euros) and prevented me from stating my opinion on the sound of the vast majority of CD's, CD players, modern recordings etc. which probably saved the day When I left the shop for lunch I did it with a statement taken from General McCarthy: "I shall return". As I discovered later for the dealer that was no threat, it was hope.
An hour and a delicious fish plate (remember, I was in Hamburg) later I was back and made it short and painless: "guys, why don't we hook up the couch pillows now?" Sofakissen, couch pillows, has been the name for the old Quads over here for a long, long time. The dealer did that with obvious relief. It must have been too many CD's
The ESL-63 is a speaker I have been admiring since I first heard it in 1989. I have never heard the 988 under serious conditions, but I have heard the 989 under nearly ideal conditions (huge treated room, ARC 150 wpc monos, plenty of time, fine LP's) and thought it was a major improvement in the nether regions but sacrificed a few things in the midrange. I own a pair of 1979 original ESL's (second owner, no smoking, thank you) and have been listening to great music reproduction through it since last October. My pair is functioning flawlessly but will be refurbed in two weeks.
But not by Quad Musikwiedergabe. A complete refurb there (all panels, EHT-parts, protective clamps etc.) including both ways postage would cost me a small fortune which I cannot afford. But boy is that light green colour captivating!
The pair in Hamburg was "fully refurbished" by Quad Musikwiedergabe.
It sounded great.
Before we played the Belafonte I took the hot-spot seat and was ready to start comparing, my notice pad and pen in my hands. But when the music started I was not comparing, I was just listening to it and enjoying it without thinking about dynamics, imaging, highs, lows, humidity, showers etc. Just Harry and the band.
After the two songs mentioned above ended, I asked him to play them again and it was only then that I tried hard to turn off the fun and get analytical. Compared to the 2805 there was clearly more presence and somehow even more detail (amazing as the 2805 in matters detail
was) and if you know old Quads you know it was not the artificial presence or increased "resolution" usually obtained by attenuating certain frequencies in the upper mids to lower highs. There were just less veils between me and the musical event, more thereness there.
Then he played the Witherspoon/Webster LP and the restraint heard before was gone, the "distance", too and I enjoyed the music more than the first time.
The Merc was a different story. Gone were large portions of the slam and the punchy bass I had heard through the 2805. I do not mean that there was no slam or punch there, but in comparison they were clearly decreased. The hall where the recording took place seemed a bit smaller and less air was filled with music and hall reverb than with the new Quads. Macro-dynamics were not as impressive either Now having said that I did have the impression that the refurbed 57's were a tad more seamless and that they presented a richer palette of tone-colours and this is important to me. Especially woodwinds and brass instruments were rendered even more believable and more distinguishable in terms of timbre and that was a different perspective of reality than the ultra-dynamic, deep bass and slam perspective of the 2805. Still, with this music, i.e. big orchestra, I would slightly prefer the 2805.
People who enjoy vintage jazz recordings on their original ESL's will know what comes next. The Kind of Blue was everything it was through the 2805 (including Chambers' bass) but without the added politeness and with more presence, more thereness. Yes, it was more enjoyable or better *even* more enjoyable.
It is a tough call. You have the 2805 (7000 over here) which are a major leap in matters loudness levels, bass depth, punch and big dynamics. That means an orchestra sounds more like an orchestra and you would probably enjoy your Wagner, Mahler, Bruckner and Turangalila more than with the old Quads. With smaller scale music like jazz and human voice though, it seems to me that the refurbed Quad ESL's (4500 if bought newly and fully refurbed from Quad Musikwiedergabe) would still be the better choice. The new ones just do not seem to have quite the magically natural midrange of the very old ones.
The interesting thing is that a very experienced Quad aficionado in Australia has conducted a quite thorough comparison of treble panels from different sources on the 57's and has found the Quad Musikwiedergabe ones do not have the best results. My Quads will be fitted with PK treble panels soon and you can bet I am so anxious to listen to them (new EHT blocks and protective clamps will be fitted, too).
Best,
Thrassyvoulos..."
"A comparison between a refurbed pair of 57's with the new 2805's in a hi-fi studio just 100 kms away? With Quad amplification? Not without me!
Since I first read the announcement on the show, I couldn't wait for the day. I cleaned a bunch of my favourite "hi-fi show LP's", listened to them again on my system for perspective and have almost driven the shop owner nuts by calling him every five days asking if everything was OK and if the show was really taking place
When I entered the shop in Hamburg a truly gorgeous pair of light green 57's caught my attention right away. The colour looked totally new and totally vintage at the same time Mr Stein (no affiliation) and his colleagues (Quad Musikwiedergabe) way down southwest are doing a superb job at least as far as the looks are concerned.
On the other hand I was stunned by the totally modern looks of the 2805. Not quite my cuppa, but lots of people with more modern taste will definitely love them. They were the ones hooked up and I had to be kindly asked to take seat (and stop fumbling around with them testing the rigidity of the new construction yes, very rigid,
indeed) and have a listen.
It really was a nice system. The table was the eminent La Nouvelle Platine Verdier, the arm was the new EMT-309 (which received an overwhelming rave review by the vastly experienced and usually very picky Mr Roland Kraft at image hi-fi magazine), the cart an Ortofon SPU Classic, the brand new Auditorium 23 MC-step up (another rave review at image hi-fi) was feeding the Quad 24 P phono preamp (the dealer felt the SPU sounded much better so than directly into the 24
P) and the QC-24 preamp was feeding a pair of Quad II Classic monos.
Interconnects were made by Red Rose and speaker cables by Auditorium 23.
The first LP we played was one of his and I do not know the title but it was a Jimmy Witherspoon-Ben Webster collaboration. The first thing you noticed when you had some experience with Quads old or new was a certain restraint, at least if you are used in the 57's. Nothing wrong or unnatural, but the musicians were just not there with you, just a tad too distant to involve you completely and draw you into the music.
Could it be the recording? Micro-dynamics were superb, though and the
2805 does know the disappearing and imaging business very well.
Next came the 180gr Classic reissue of the RCA Belafonte Carnegie Hall (clearly better than a very clean 1S original imo). Day-O was really impressive, with extended highs, a certain seamlessness and natural hall reverb and the Jamaica Farewell demonstrated the excellent detail rendition (you could clearly hear the spit in Belafonte's throat) and, again, awesome micro-dynamics that system with those speakers was capable of. A real hi-fi experience!
Then the time had come for my long standing hi-fi show warhorse, the Classic reissue of the Mercury SR-90313 Ravel and Debussy with the Detroit Symphony under Paray (the guy always conducted too fast, but at least in this record this does not disturb or distract me too much). The original RFR Merc has even better timbre variety, but the Classic does the macro-dynamic and bass thing in an almost unbelievable way without neglecting the tone colour diversity. I have heard this record with all previous Quad planar speakers (in different systems, though). My 57's in my room, driven by refurbed Heathkit W-5M's (now *those* looks I like), make this LP sound just great with the exception of the tutti where nature sets the limits.
Here it comes: we heard the Rhapsodie Espagnole and I had never ever heard those superb macro-dynamics or this extremely deep, powerful, quick, very punchy bass from Quad speakers before (that would include an ARC/989 combo and I think memory does serve me well) and in these respects the 2805 is a true improvement and so much so that I know many folks who would buy it just for that. If quality bass and explosive dynamics are high in your book, I strongly recommend you to audition this speaker. Just imagine how it would do dynamics with a more powerful amp!
After that impressive performance we needed a couple of minutes to discuss it before playing the inevitable Classic Kind of Blue (180 gr). Of course the 2805 showed at once how different the timbres of the instruments of Miles, Trane and Cannon were and the hard to reproduce correctly opening notes of the Chambers solo were very deep and very fast. The primitive left-right stereo effect , a trademark of early Columbia jazz LP's (monos were much better, of course) was there in spades. Imaging was good, but here it was again, this reserved character, just a bit less involving than I know from home.
At this point another guy entered and he did have that smart, I-am-rich-and-can-show-it looks and he did bring a lot of well, CD's, if you know what I mean He had never before heard Quads or panels for that matter. He said he was definitely interested in buying if Well, that was the end of my chances to listen to my Classic RCA LSC-2465 Prokofiev Piano Concerto no.2 Frager/ParisCO/Leibowitz at that system, so I stood up and started searching the LP bins (that shop also has a fine selection of vintage classical and a great selection of vintage jazz LP's in competitive prices) They were listening to the whole shebang via a Roksan CD player. The guy was complaining that the Dire Straits and hip-hop don't sound as good as on his system at home I felt sick. A double Enja Eric Dolphy LP and an original Flying Dutchman Leon Thomas saved the moment (a cheap Ferras/Barbizet Brahms Double Concerto with Kletzki and LvB 1st Sonata on WRC, i.e. actually original EMI pressing, definitely helped, too, crowned by a still sealed Elliott Carter SQ nos. 1&2 on Nonesuch for six euros) and prevented me from stating my opinion on the sound of the vast majority of CD's, CD players, modern recordings etc. which probably saved the day When I left the shop for lunch I did it with a statement taken from General McCarthy: "I shall return". As I discovered later for the dealer that was no threat, it was hope.
An hour and a delicious fish plate (remember, I was in Hamburg) later I was back and made it short and painless: "guys, why don't we hook up the couch pillows now?" Sofakissen, couch pillows, has been the name for the old Quads over here for a long, long time. The dealer did that with obvious relief. It must have been too many CD's
The ESL-63 is a speaker I have been admiring since I first heard it in 1989. I have never heard the 988 under serious conditions, but I have heard the 989 under nearly ideal conditions (huge treated room, ARC 150 wpc monos, plenty of time, fine LP's) and thought it was a major improvement in the nether regions but sacrificed a few things in the midrange. I own a pair of 1979 original ESL's (second owner, no smoking, thank you) and have been listening to great music reproduction through it since last October. My pair is functioning flawlessly but will be refurbed in two weeks.
But not by Quad Musikwiedergabe. A complete refurb there (all panels, EHT-parts, protective clamps etc.) including both ways postage would cost me a small fortune which I cannot afford. But boy is that light green colour captivating!
The pair in Hamburg was "fully refurbished" by Quad Musikwiedergabe.
It sounded great.
Before we played the Belafonte I took the hot-spot seat and was ready to start comparing, my notice pad and pen in my hands. But when the music started I was not comparing, I was just listening to it and enjoying it without thinking about dynamics, imaging, highs, lows, humidity, showers etc. Just Harry and the band.
After the two songs mentioned above ended, I asked him to play them again and it was only then that I tried hard to turn off the fun and get analytical. Compared to the 2805 there was clearly more presence and somehow even more detail (amazing as the 2805 in matters detail
was) and if you know old Quads you know it was not the artificial presence or increased "resolution" usually obtained by attenuating certain frequencies in the upper mids to lower highs. There were just less veils between me and the musical event, more thereness there.
Then he played the Witherspoon/Webster LP and the restraint heard before was gone, the "distance", too and I enjoyed the music more than the first time.
The Merc was a different story. Gone were large portions of the slam and the punchy bass I had heard through the 2805. I do not mean that there was no slam or punch there, but in comparison they were clearly decreased. The hall where the recording took place seemed a bit smaller and less air was filled with music and hall reverb than with the new Quads. Macro-dynamics were not as impressive either Now having said that I did have the impression that the refurbed 57's were a tad more seamless and that they presented a richer palette of tone-colours and this is important to me. Especially woodwinds and brass instruments were rendered even more believable and more distinguishable in terms of timbre and that was a different perspective of reality than the ultra-dynamic, deep bass and slam perspective of the 2805. Still, with this music, i.e. big orchestra, I would slightly prefer the 2805.
People who enjoy vintage jazz recordings on their original ESL's will know what comes next. The Kind of Blue was everything it was through the 2805 (including Chambers' bass) but without the added politeness and with more presence, more thereness. Yes, it was more enjoyable or better *even* more enjoyable.
It is a tough call. You have the 2805 (7000 over here) which are a major leap in matters loudness levels, bass depth, punch and big dynamics. That means an orchestra sounds more like an orchestra and you would probably enjoy your Wagner, Mahler, Bruckner and Turangalila more than with the old Quads. With smaller scale music like jazz and human voice though, it seems to me that the refurbed Quad ESL's (4500 if bought newly and fully refurbed from Quad Musikwiedergabe) would still be the better choice. The new ones just do not seem to have quite the magically natural midrange of the very old ones.
The interesting thing is that a very experienced Quad aficionado in Australia has conducted a quite thorough comparison of treble panels from different sources on the 57's and has found the Quad Musikwiedergabe ones do not have the best results. My Quads will be fitted with PK treble panels soon and you can bet I am so anxious to listen to them (new EHT blocks and protective clamps will be fitted, too).
Best,
Thrassyvoulos..."