Hey forum elders and hifi anoraks,

An old friend visited me yesterday, and whilst reminiscing of the old days, we remembered that when we got our first "serious" systems together, we bought an issue of a uk mag - I think it's called "Audiophile" and it was like the "hifi+" of its day glossy pics and somewhat interesting reviews (many by Malcom Steward if I recall correctly). One thing we really like was that the always featured 2 detailed opinions (often conflicting) of each product.

Anyway, we recalled an issue that featured page after page of "Dream Systems" for different budgets and tastes assembled by the reviewers.

Here are a few that we could recall though I can't vouch for their accuracy:-

Full Naim/Linn kit
Full Meridian Active Kit
Full Rega kit with ELAs (the only system that got a lukwarm write up)
Roksan Xerxes/Roksan Pre/Power/TDL floorstanders
Pink Triangle LP/Einstein or Copland Amp with US electrostats
Arcam/Heybrook
a DPA(?) kit
and most interesting (ahead of its time)
Micromega/Audio Innovations or Audio Note valve amp/Triangle Acoustique floorstanders

Anyone remember reading something like this? or better yet, still have a copy of it?

I think it was 90 or 91, round the time when Naim CDS on Linn's Numerik came out...

Here are some brands or products that I remember reading about and looked forward to hearing but never had a chance to do so...

DPA "little bit"? and the rest of their products
Albarry the funky red acrylic amp
Moth Audio wooden cases
Roksan Darius
Audio Innovations
TDL

Please feel free to share your experiences during the dawn of good sounding digital...

Albarry I think have closed down.
TDL were bought by Richer Sounds, so their logo appears on speakers manufactured only for sale through Richer Sounds.

If I could go back in time I'd get myself a good NVA amplification setup. It's a shame that company is no longer with us.

I came very close to buying a used Moth pre/power combo in the ultra-slim wooden cases (circa 1995, I believe it was). Opted instead for a used MF A1 waffle iron, which had performed slightly better at seperating out a particularly complex bass line in a head-to-head comparison through some small Tannoy monitors (the salespeople at Hawthorne agreed, even though the Moth combo would have been the more lucrative sale).

In retrospect, yadda yadda yadda.

http://www.acoustica.org.uk/misc/AP_july91.jpg

It's Audiophile July 91, and royce you've damn near got the list right! It's a review of systems proposed by selected dealers (Zeus Audio, RPM, Acoustic Arts). Other reviews in the magazine include the Apogee Centaur and Townshend Sir David speakers, Deltec DPA50S pre/poweramp combo, the Origin Live Oasis S, and NAD 5425 and Yamaha CDX550E CD players. Anyway, rather than type-out the 'Winning Systems' lists I've just posted scans of it as a zip archive here:

http://www.acoustica.org.uk/misc/AP_Jul91.zip (3.7MB)

Enjoy!

Wow cheers Martin!

Now I can sleep :)

I'm sad aren't I

seandtaylor:

Allthough I´m fortunate enough to own an NVA AP20 amplifier, I'm checking the offerings for NVA gear on Ebay UK frequently. Besides the LS1 speaker cable and Soundpipe interconnect, some amplifiers show up as well. I'm not sure, but judging by the description on some of these auctions, I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Dunn is busy with some new gear. Personally, I think NVA amplification, at the price, was unbeatable.

I've heard the Albarry mono blocks at a dealer's in '92, with a PT LPT/RB300/some Goldring, driving ProAc Super Tablettes. I can't remember the pre amp, but the system sounded bloody marvellous to me. It had lots of drive and 'thwack'.

Best,
Oliver

I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Dunn is busy with some new gear

Richard has started producing the amps again in small numbers.

Paul.

Full Rega kit with ELAs (the only system that got a lukwarm write up)

Please feel free to share your experiences during the dawn of good sounding digital...

Don't think Rega were doing digital at this time. Anyhow, I'd be interested to know what their system was.

d (currently using full Rega kit)

Nice one, Martin. The Audio Innovations amp(s) have crossed my mind a few times.

"Sir David" has to win campest ever name for speakers!

Alex - if you have the urge to try AI kit just do it. I ran a borrowed Audio Innovations 500 (with BorderPatrol PSU) for a couple of months recently; while 'only' impressive with Impulse horns it was truly sublime with the ESL57s.*

'Sir David' are definitely not camp-sounding speakers. Now 'Von Gaylord': there's a camp brand name...




*which I sold. Idiot alert.

I remeber 1991/92 there where few systems which impressed me absolutely:

1. Full Linn setup - lp12, lk1, active crossover ? , three? Linn poweramps, Isobarik
2. Dynavector(i don't remember details) + exposure X + epos 14
3. Dpa CD + DPA preamp/poweramp + Epos 14
4. Sony XE7 es ? + MF A1 + some big KEF

Tomek

I remember hearing a LP12 / Nait 2 / Linn Index 2 setup around this time (a new-found friend had it) and I vowed to own something similar in the future (and now I do :D ) It made music like nobody's business!

A few years later, my dad bought a Rega P2 / Arcam Alpha CD / Linn Magic-I / LK80 / Keilidh setup and I thought it was totally lifeless compared to the Linn/Naim system that I heard before it.

So I went down the Naim + DIY route and never looked back...

seandtaylor:

Allthough I´m fortunate enough to own an NVA AP20 amplifier, I'm checking the offerings for NVA gear on Ebay UK frequently. Besides the LS1 speaker cable and Soundpipe interconnect, some amplifiers show up as well. I'm not sure, but judging by the description on some of these auctions, I wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Dunn is busy with some new gear. Personally, I think NVA amplification, at the price, was unbeatable.

I'd *love* to have an NVA Statement power amp. Although I occasionally have a punt on Ebay I've think I've stabilised out system-wise, but a Statement at the right price I would definitely go for.

Rana

I remember '91. You could buy Apogees then. Made everything else sound utterly artificial. Still do if you hear a well setup pair properly driven.

I once heard, back in 1991 a pair of Scintillas driven by a Krell KA50 class A US monster, an Audio Research valve pre-amp and a Linn LP12, Ittock and their top cartridge of the time - Troika? One of those audio epiphanies. My colleague at work took me back to his flat one evening and played Robbie Robertson's 1st solo album. I can still feel the bass drum on Somewhere down the Crazy River.

Weren't the Scintillas the 1-ohm power holes? Limits your choice of amp to a very few, I'd think.

Maybe I simply don't get what they do well or maybe they weren't driven properly, but my limited exposure to Apogee Scintillas made me question whether there was a typo in the name, that they should have been called Apologies -- all sound, no music, kinda like a parallel-universe Linn Kan... the ones with the goatee.

Joe

I once had the displeasure of hearing a Naim CDS, 52, Krell 600 monoblock-based rig driving a pair of Scintillas. It was the worst hifi I've ever heard. Lifeless, bright, devoid of timbre, and extremely compressed, it single-handedly disproved the "LP-12>string>tin can" theory.

regards,

dave

it single-handedly disproved the "LP-12>string>tin can" theory.I don't think it does anything of the sort, Dave. It would probably sound less worse than if you had had a Rega P3>string>tin can in there, that's all.

Rana,

a hifi retailer that used to sell NVA over here in the Netherlands (I think he was the only selling the gear) has an Integrated Statement for sale. I've never seen a secondhand Statement Power Amp, though.

TDL were bought by Richer Sounds, so their logo appears on speakers manufactured only for sale through Richer Sounds.

Ahh! thats interesting.

I have a set of TDL studio speakers - the smallest ones. I swapped the internal wire for NACA5 and put some top notch caps in - and they were wonderful.

One of the drivers started to go way back when, the rubber edge started lifting - so I wrote to TDL asking if it could be repaired. They sent me a brand new driver FOC :-)

I noticed that a company in germany had bought their designs and you can still get studio monitors from them and parts to some extent.

Couldn't figure out what these cheap looking speakers in Richer were doing made by TDL .....

I figured they might be old stock as the company did produce some cheaper stuff before they folded.

Well there you go.

thanks 2many

My experience with the Apogees has generally been positive. Despite their faults they can be beguiling and put many speakers to shame in the midrange and highs.

I think we should not be so quick to dismiss some of these products. Very often they have been set up with inappropriate combinations or to achieve very different hi fi priorities in mind (e.g. 3D imaging, syrupy midrange, oversmooth highs).

Similarly, there have been some truly dreadful Naim set ups.

Krell Monoblocks and pre-amp, apogee acoustics speakers (the 7ft ones) and a roksan Xerxes turntable. Audio Nirvana. I heard it ('93 I think). Still haven't recovered.

Similarly, there have been some truly dreadful Naim set ups.

Are there any other types of Naim setups? :p



(kidding, this is from a Naim owner)

I have an audio innovations amp that I bought for £75. Its earlier though than the ones featured in the mag. Its a series 300 mk2 integrated jobbie. Uses ECL86 valves - supposedly very like 1/2 a 12ax7 and 1/2 el34 inside. Supposedly about 1990 or so. Seems to have a lot in common with the 500's similar layout to selectors and inputs, like common parts were used, but the valves and undoubtedly the circuit is different.

There is just about zero info on this thing on the web and I bought it on my ears alone (maybe the best way!) and just love it with my ESL57's. Looks nowhere near as sexy as the series 500 or 800.

anyone out there have one? Anyone heard of it? I need to know!

Fran

Have you seen this page?
http://www.drtube.com/audioamp.htm

The 300's schematic is near-identical to the 500, only adjusted for the different tube complement. But definitely trust your ears :)

I don't think it does anything of the sort, Dave. It would probably sound less worse than if you had had a Rega P3>string>tin can in there, that's all.

A P3 probably would have sounded less worse considering it's a less worthy source. At least those poor Scintillas would have had less information to fuck up;-)

regards,

dave

A P3 probably would have sounded less worse considering it's a less worthy source. At least those poor Scintillas would have had less information to fuck up;-)
if they are THAT awful, another possibility is that the sound would be no different ;)
the bottle neck being so narrow all the lifeblood has been squeezed out in either case.

Dave,

despite the Apogee being widely regarded as one of the finest loudspeakers of all time, there will always be a lunatic fringe who believe the SBL and Kan to be superior.

if they are THAT awful, another possibility is that the sound would be no different ;)
the bottle neck being so narrow all the lifeblood has been squeezed out in either case.

In thirty years of hifi involvement, i've never found anything THAT awful. (compliment to Apogee from dave maybe?;-)

Dave,

despite the Apogee being widely regarded as one of the finest loudspeakers of all time, there will always be a lunatic fringe who believe the SBL and Kan to be superior.

Better get me a prescription for Haldol then.

regards,

dave

Rana,

a hifi retailer that used to sell NVA over here in the Netherlands (I think he was the only selling the gear) has an Integrated Statement for sale. I've never seen a secondhand Statement Power Amp, though.

Thanks for the heads-up. There is also one here in the UK for sale. I really want the Emotive Statement power amp or, just to scare my wife, two in mono mode....

I guess they all went to the Far East.

Regards

Rana

Rana,

NVA made three Statement power amps.

The original Statement 1 monos (black box) Second Statement Stereo and the Definitive Statement Monos.

If you're not bothered about the lack of chrome plated power station looks,then a pair of A80 monos(or the older bolted cases A50 TDS monos)or even an AP80 integrated will give you pretty much the perfomance of a Second Statement.

Paul.

Hi Paul

"If you're not bothered about the lack of chrome plated power station looks"

Oh, but I am. I know, I admit I am shallow. Though I guess the chrome would have suffered with age.

Still got those NVA cube speakers? I would have had them if I had somewhere to put them.

Rana

I had a phono 2 head amp where the chrome peeled off the front panel........a right mess,so yes could be a problem.

The Cube 2's are still here gathering dust.............

Paul

I guess they all went to the Far East.

Unfortunately, that is not true, at least in China and Hong Kong. I remember their distributor closing in mid 90s due to lack of interest. They did a clearance sale and it was the quietest sale I've been in, if I remember correctly nothing over 200UKP including the power amps.

Same with Michell's funky looking amps, 300UKP and no takers.

Guess they must be out there in some storage somewhere.

Many here takes "Stereophile approved" brand names very seriously, the only UK brands - besides the vintage Tannoys, Leaks and whatnot - that has a decent resale value are Linn,Meridian, DCS and Chord.

HKongers seem to spend lots of money on hi fi but my impression is that they tend to go for the gear that has been "approved" or expensive. They have don't have much real opinion except following gurus and keeping up with the Wongs. How many of them have a real appreciation of various music?

Sad really, but I guess it's not so different from elsewhere, just a matter of degree.

Many here takes "Stereophile approved" brand names very seriously, the only UK brands - besides the vintage Tannoys, Leaks and whatnot - that has a decent resale value are Linn,Meridian, DCS and Chord.
Highly conservative and risk averse
How many of them have a real appreciation of various music?
one problem being the lack of "good" radio stations in HK. By that I mean ones that play more than the standard cantopop (most of which mediocre opium for the masses at best) or mainstream top40 hits from the US.

No radio 3 or radio 4, no JazzFM. That's not saying much, as JazzFM is no longer a "jazz" station but an easy-listening station powered by 24hour Fourplay and no real sex. :rolleyes:

Highly conservative and risk averse

one problem being the lack of "good" radio stations in HK. By that I mean ones that play more than the standard cantopop (most of which mediocre opium for the masses at best) or mainstream top40 hits from the US.

No radio 3 or radio 4, no JazzFM. That's not saying much, as JazzFM is no longer a "jazz" station but an easy-listening station powered by 24hour Fourplay and no real sex. :rolleyes:

Which is why web radio is such a godsend.Cantopop and 60s/70s MOR IF YOU ARE LUCKY otherwise talk radio 80% of the time @@

ohconfucious, are you HK based as well?

Hock, as a Hong Konger who appreciates music , I got into this debate on a local forum where a guy believes that audio systems is a hobby onto itself and that if you are a music lover just get an MP3 player and leave them "hi fi players" alone. :o

He also said that "HKers are so busy that we only have time for improving our systems, listening to new music takes up too much time" :rolleyes:

only in Hong Kong...

BTW, in this last month's A/V Biweekly "home visit" column they visted a guy with a 10,000 pound system with, guess what, 50 or so cds!

"Guess they must be out there in some storage somewhere."


Well, I hope someone finds them and puts them on Ebay or on a ship back to the UK.

Regards

Rana

as a Hong Konger who appreciates music , I got into this debate on a local forum where a guy believes that audio systems is a hobby onto itself ....HKers are so busy that we only have time for improving our systems, listening to new music takes up too much time" :rolleyes:

You have interesting tastes in music. Not like the average HKer, it seems.
They do have a rather suitable name for the hobby........likened to having a fever :D

only in Hong Kong...in this last month's A/V Biweekly "home visit" column they visted a guy with a 10,000 pound system with, guess what, 50 or so cds!city of extremes.

haha! what a dork.....will have to pick up a copy to appreciate this guy's anal possession of expensive gear for its own sake ;)
perhaps he's saving up for the next upgrade????

You have interesting tastes in music. Not like the average HKer, it seems.
They do have a rather suitable name for the hobby........likened to having a fever :D


Reason being I am not a native, but most ppl who are into good non-classical music in hk have nothing to do with HiFi, however, classical music ppl tend to have good systems though.

Are you in HK?

Are you in HK?
yes. back in HK after 30 years abroad.

Hock, as a Hong Konger who appreciates music , I got into this debate on a local forum where a guy believes that audio systems is a hobby onto itself and that if you are a music lover just get an MP3 player and leave them "hi fi players" alone. :o

He also said that "HKers are so busy that we only have time for improving our systems, listening to new music takes up too much time" :rolleyes:

only in Hong Kong...

BTW, in this last month's A/V Biweekly "home visit" column they visted a guy with a 10,000 pound system with, guess what, 50 or so cds!

Enuff said!

I do agree with the guy though. Most audiophiles are into the gear; the music is just incidental or a means of "testing" the gear. This is the case elsewhere as well, may be just more extreme in HK.

I have personally visited homes where they have expensive systems and a very poor music collection, e.g. small and full of "best evergreen hits", Richard Clayderman, Kenny G, etc.

What I find interesting is that in Japan, people who have hi end systems also tend to have quite large music collections. Maybe it's because Japanese are obsessive about everything!

yes. back in HK after 30 years abroad.

Wow, an isobarik using flat earther with good music taste in HK ...what a novelty!

Most audiophiles are into the gear; the music is just incidental or a means of "testing" the gear. This is the case elsewhere as well, may be just more extreme in HK.

I have personally visited homes where they have expensive systems and a very poor music collection, e.g. small and full of "best evergreen hits", Richard Clayderman, Kenny G, etc.
fancy buying a very expensive car and buying just enough 3star petrol to take it around the block once a year....
Wow, an isobarik using flat earther with good music taste in HK ...what a novelty!strong 80s british influence ;)

fancy buying a very expensive car and buying just enough 3star petrol to take it around the block once a year....

Considering the sheer number of fully configured Porsches, Astin Martins and quite a few Lambo, Ferraris and bigg arsed Harleys etc on the perpetually jammed roads of HK...hmmm....

Considering the sheer number of fully configured Porsches, Astin Martins and quite a few Lambo, Ferraris and bigg arsed Harleys etc on the perpetually jammed roads of HK...hmmm....say no more!

Martin

Is it possible to scan a zip archive of Audiophile July 91 and the review of the Deltec DPA50S pre/poweramp combo?

I have also send You a mail about Deltec DPA50S pre/poweramp.

Best Regards // Göran David Gerby (Stockholm, Sweden)

Göran, the Audiophile article scans are still available at:

http://www.acoustica.org.uk/misc/AP_Jul91.zip

The scanned HiFi World review of the DPA50S are here:
http://www.acoustica.org.uk/misc/dpa1.JPG
http://www.acoustica.org.uk/misc/dpa2.JPG
http://www.acoustica.org.uk/misc/dpa3.JPG

(You'll have an email reply shortly)

Sigh..... I hate to say it but, I dont think we have gotten any where. Those early 90s systems are equal if not better than what is available today, except perhaps the digital audio equipment.

Your Pal

Louballoo

Maybe it's because Japanese are obsessive about everything!
I dunno what gave you that idea.:p

Martin

Thank's a lot for Your quick response and the reviews! But I can't find anything about DPA50S pre/power in the zip archive of Audiophile July 91.

..nice and interesting to read louballoo words above: "Those early 90s systems are equal if not better than what is available today.."

I have an Quad 909 power now, and it´s good in the midrange but in my opinion it does'nt have very quality in the treble and the bass i week even sounds "blur".

Do You know if Your DPA50S-system is better in the hole register?

I'm not looking for "big bas", but deep clean bas, good treble and of course good midrange -what mean is good performence in the hole register.

Is it true that You can get DPA fixed by "Chevin Audio" (located were in UK?) if it get broken?

Best Regards // Göran

Göran - email now sent.

Sigh..... I hate to say it but, I dont think we have gotten any where. Those early 90s systems are equal if not better than what is available today, except perhaps the digital audio equipment.

Your Pal

Louballoo
Hi, things with music reproduction , as with all things really, can only be improved so far.
If, by the 90's say,good, (right) materials were being used in caps, resistors etc. then today sounds will be no better, different maybe, as new designs follow old designs which spawn new designs.
There's probably nothing new in hifi ( to paraphrase).
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/john.baldam/dogrun.gif