Been wanting to upgrade my Royd RR2s for a while, as I've long since repalced all my other components. They're sounding a bit sick, so I can't really put off my upgrade any longer. But I don't know what to buy! :-(

I don't have a budget, but the less thousands of pounds the better. I really don't fancy having to go around deming, so I'm either just going to buy something on reputation and cyle through a few 2nd hand items.

I'm after the tonallt softest, most dynamic sound possible. Chunk is better than sparkle, I'm very prone to finding things hard and bright. I use a Behringer EQ with a -6dB/octave from 100Hz, on top of some fairly substantial attenuation in the bass via the AutoEQ. So I imagine I could get away with some quite small speakers thanks to room gain. I use a fair bit of EQ to filter the tone to my liking.

I'm a bit wary though. I don't want to go through a load of rigmaroll with setup. I have my current speakers very far apart (6m, touching the sidewalls), facing each other with the listeing chair on the axis between the two. I've got rid of floor spikes as an unecessary complexity, perching the RR2s on bits of sponge and corkboard. So floorstanders would be nice, as I'm not too keen on buggering about with stands.

Basically I want someone else to make the decision for me. So fire away.

TIA

S/hand recommendation to try- - Impulse H6 (or the Lali, it's replacement). No problem filling a room that size, full 'tight' and dynamic sound, and easy to drive. V. refined treble, which may be what you are looking for; and works in almost any location (thought the Behringer widens your options here). Worth a try if you come across a pair, anyway.

yeah, if the room is 6 metres plus (and big in the other direction?) why buy tiddlers?

Big horns, big woofers, big cab, EQ to taste :)

Dynamics? Close to side walls? Reasonable sized room? Gotta be a big pair of corner horns.

-- Ian

Kit, IIRC you're not averse to a bit of diy? There are plans for Klipsch-style corner horns and you can put non-harsh solutions on top. Very few thousands necessary.

Thankyou all.

Ah yes, big horns again :-)

Pardon m'ignorance, but do corner corners literally have to go in a corner, or can I just plonk them against side walls?

I don't mind anything that looks minging, as the listening room as dedicated and looks a complete tip. I quite like the idea of painting them a nice bright color.

I could probably do a tolerable job of glueing/screwing a kit together, but you forget me cutting anything. Any suggestions?

TIA

As for speaker size, the room is about 6m by 4m but only 2m high, and is sort of a distorted L shape.

The thing is that I can get a very big room filling sound out of the RR2s, which are wee speakers indeed. However, they must be getting seriously pounded to sound as big as they do, hence the appeal of big speakers.

Take a look at this page (http://http://methe-family.de/Horn.htm) (sorry, German only) and then look at Bert Doppenberg's site (www.bd-design.nl); the German page shows a marriage of a corner horn with a wide bandwidth spherical horn.

Or look for one of the Tannoy corner horns.

Corner horns not particularly neccessary IMO.
Take a look at Merlin's JBLs, or the huge Exclusive / TAD style systems.

http://www.soundstagelive.com/factorytours/belcanto/speaker2.jpg

Sorely intrigued by those big Osiris things.

Where should I look in the UK for big speakers?

Check out the Zu Durids and Tones.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/zu8/tone.html
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/zu/druid.html

ANY COLOUR you want, hi eff. full rangers!

just out of interest, will you be selling your RR2's? and rougly how much? thanks

VFM can come from latest Cerwin Vega V15 incarnation.

I often wonder if Isobariks were Cerwin Vega for snobs ;)

I have to say I heard SSB's big Tannoys yesterday and they simply made me wonder why anyone serious about music would want the type of "speakerette" foisted on us these days. You can ne change the laws of physics captain.

In a small room, small speakers can work well. But I agree, I generally like speakers which look a bit large for the room they're placed in better.

Kit, do yourself a favour, get something with at least a 12" woofer.

Understood :-)

Is the Emporium still open for business? Their website doesn't appear to alive. I could just grab a pair of Tannoy GRFs off them and be done with it.

http://www.emporiumhifi.com/

I could just grab a pair of Tannoy GRFs off them and be done with it.


Kit, that would be an exceptionally smart move.

Emporium site is working for me, btw.

-- Ian

Living Voice Avatars area very smooth and sweet sounding speaker as are the Spendor s8e.

Kit, that would be an exceptionally smart move.

Emporium site is working for me, btw.

-- Ian


It works, but doesn't appear to have been updated for a long while.

I think big Tannoys may be it, as they have the "safe pair of hands" reputation, compared to some of their weirder and more outre big box counterparts. Not keen on tone controls on the speaker though, Mr.EQ that I am.

Remember: only really large Tannoys work. Anything smaller than freaking huge sounds horrible (this is a rule of thumb, but it will stand you in good stead).

I really don't fancy having to go around deming,
TIA

Honestly mate, I mean this with no offence or malice, but this is a stupid approach that will only end up in tears. Unless you are disabled or live 200 miles away you really have no excuse.

Do you yourself a favour and chose using your own ears, brain, music and equipment.

Remember: only really large Tannoys work. Anything smaller than freaking huge sounds horrible (this is a rule of thumb, but it will stand you in good stead).

Kit's GRF idea is easily in the "big enough to be awesome" category.


Not keen on tone controls on the speaker though, Mr.EQ that I am.


They're not difficult to take completely out of circuit (a lot of refurbed older Tannoys have this done as a matter of course).

-- Ian

It looks like it's the Zu Druid, at least to start with.

The largest driver is a mere 10", it has some fancy pants bass loading based on a motorcyle exhaust pipe with the port underneath the speaker firing into the floor, lots of metal, and the standard finish is called..."Tokyo Frost." Oh dear, lost a few FEPs here I fear.

BUT! A single full-ish range driver with supertweeter and 101 dB efficiency :-o The are very tall and I guarantee they will look terrible in my room, which also saves a bit of face.

I'll report in a few weeks time. *strokes beard enigmatically*

I'll be interested to hear what you make of these. They look interesting, but reports from people who heard that at the Heathrow show were distinctly lukewarm. But you never really can tell at a show.

-- Ian

I liked them at Heathrow.

I suppose that means I've wasted money again, thanks to you, eh Alex?

Anyway, all speakers sound cobblers unless set up in headphone, miles aparts stylee and EQ'd up the ass. Or, that's what I'm currently conditioned to believe.

To be honest, luke warm is an element of what I'm looking for. The path I'm going down is towards a sound with no edge, sparkle, thickness or air, just lizard-brain dynamic pulse. I don't think that's really a live or particularly natural sound. How does one do that without tinting things grey, though?

Fun ahoy!

They do look like they could be fun. But I haven't heard them, so ignore my mutterings of doom.

-- Ian

Relax, I supply myself with doomy muttering galore already. I also like being a rebel. For instance, I think a lot of people might think my headphone speaker/home cinema receiver/loadsa EQ arrangement sounds pretty Arthur Bright, which only makes me like it more.

I'd like to try a few other speakers still, not to mention build my own. I note also that the landing of my listening loft is very narrow, so no real beasts, alas.

Kit,

Like the look of them. Be interested to read your thoughts on them once you've got them set up at home.

Regards,

Stuart.

Arthur Bright - All right........................?
Arthur Bright - F' ing shite....................?
Despite being born in Larndon, I still never quite get that Cockney stuff..
As for ze druid having a mere 10" - I feel humbled..
But, only a little bit, OK guys..!

Some Zu Porn

http://www.sonicflare.com/

http://www.sonicflare.com/archives/he2006-zu-audio.php

Check out that Luxman TT... I want one NOW

I'll be interested to hear what you make of these. They look interesting, but reports from people who heard that at the Heathrow show were distinctly lukewarm. But you never really can tell at a show.

-- Ian

I thought they were bloody awful. No bass to speak of below 100 hz and no treble after about 7K.

Put some more challenging stuff on instead of the accoustic femal vocal shite that they were playing and they fell apart horribly.

Robert has posted a measured revies of these speakers from hifi world and they measure very badly, a very uneven response with no bass or treble. Sensitivity is more like 93db IIRC, so they aren't even that high in sensitivity.

Steer clear!

Do you yourself a favour and chose using your own ears, brain, music and equipment.what??? that would be just like taking responsibility for your own actions....
;)

Whadda they sound like then?

-- Ian

Patience grasshopper :-)

For full disclosure here are my current Behringer EQ settings, for flat with first order rolloffs to give -12dB at each end of the scale in room. I used the same target curve with my Royd RR2s. Once again I can only apologise for the shocking quality of these snaps.

http://www.topspins.net/zuleft.jpg
LEFT

The Auto EQ actually gives +15dB and +13.5dB for the bottom two notches IIRC. No way!

http://www.topspins.net/zuright.jpg
RIGHT

Note that 40Hz is flat, so the speaker is managing -6dB at 40Hz in room.

http://www.topspins.net/zupeq.jpg
PARAMETRIC EQ perfume for both channels. Warms and wets the sound a bit, always a good thing IMO.

Right, the sound...

I think they sound pretty wicked. My dream system gives friendly, no nonsense pipe and slippers tone with Thor like dynamics, and this speakers gets me closer to that.

People who don't like them would probably say they lacked sparkle and thickness and sounded a bit soft. I'm surprised that the the RR2s sound fatter, weightier and angrier, even though they are perhaps 1/4 the size of the Druids. So Joe Ackroyd knows a thing or two.

As for the Zus, I think all we've discussed about larger drivers, wider baffles and (near) full range drivers applies. I think they'd be a bit uncharismatic without EQ, and most of the positive reviews have commented that they draw little attention to themselves on the color front.

The dynamic range is very wide indeed. The Behringer EQ has a decibel meter function and this bounces up and down like a yo-yo, perhaps about 6dB more the RR2s :o This can be a bit of a pain, as whilst the median volume seems exactly the same as with the Royds given the same volume knobbage, but the peaks are loads louder. So I'm forever tinkering about to maintain my prefered volume limit of ~87dB. Grr.

The RR2s sound a fair bit more compressed. I a little compression sometimes a good thing, as it gives more apparent welly at lower volumes and a muscely, instant gratification factor. It can also make things sound relatively lardy and bunged up.

More after Dr Who.

This is round earth talk, good god man, what about da choon?

They sound like fun. Must try and hear a pair one day.

-- Ian

Erm, I see what you mean *sheepish*

I've been listening to a lot of Nazareth by way of compensation. The speakers are texture freaks, they have a sort of horn-y balance, so anything that sounds a bit mangled and gritty sounds wicked. Rattling and scraping noises too. Steely Dan's Can't Buy a Thrill sounds unbearably smarmy and slimey.

In line with what other bigger speaker users have reported, they sound rather gentle and unforced, whereas the RR2s are squeezing the sound out and therefore sound louder at lower levels. So more volume level trouble. Same as when I first switched to the Panasonic SA-XR70 digital amp. Looks to be a bit of synergy going on.

The flipside is that the wide range seems to breathe quite a bit of life into compressed recordings, and the system sounds dynamic and exciting at low levels (say at about 77dB peak).

More later. Honestly, I promise it will be more interesting than this.

*tumbleweed*

For your reference, the second track on John Coltrane's Crescent sounds extremely luscious and heavy*, whilst the fourth track on Interstellar Space sounds stingingly gritty and nasal. Smaller and further away too. Drums have that authentic prostate-rattling quality, like when you flap a metal tea tray to make that wup wup noise, which is the sound I reckon is why people spend lots of money on hifi for.

The sound is really intimate and powerful, centre vocals often sound like they're inside my head. Trippy. Things have tendancy to melt into one another and drown out quieter parts. Ideal for my tastes, but I think a few people might want something with more edges to grasp. The timing is immaculate, but seems to be of the sort that emphasises deceleration rather than acceleration of tempo. It sucks inrather than blows out, as it were.

*I'll never feel bad about using "artificial" EQ again, because I don't think whoever recorded this gave a toss about what a piano actually sounds like in real life. They just made it sound wicked instead.

Certainly sounds like you're having fun, and surely that's the whole object of this ridiculous pastime.

Writing about speakers is a pain. I mean, just moving them a bit can turn them into something else.

I've moved them further into the room, simplified the perfume parametric EQ (-2.5db/oct at 2.5k and 10k, +2.5db/oct at 125Hz), and the last 2 notches on the Auto EQ are -11.5db and -15db. The speakers and listening throne have been moved to bass reinforcing parts of the room (about every 60 cm in my case).

One thing about the Zu Druids that might apply everywhere is a fun bit of psychoacoustics. They are very tall, about 137cm off the ground, but the bass fires from the base of speaker directly into the floor. So the bass seems to rise up from the floor, whilst the rains down from above. Hence a wide open, atmospheric sound even when they're close together. Very handy when you're close to the speakers (they're 2m away in my case).

Try 'em without eq, gawn, I dare you.

I like your write ups, they make me want to hear a pair of these.

-- Ian

Aww, shucks :-)

They sound completely cack without EQ. Phasey and weird along with all other problems of carelessly set up speakers, and EQ has made me too lazy to do anything more than ocassionally push them back and foth along a straight axis. Don't do it!

They sound completely cack without EQ. Phasey and weird

Aha. That's closer to the other reports I've heard.

-- Ian

My understanding is that EQ does cause phase distortion, but that to a degree this is relative, so the ear adapts to the new phase pattern and makes the undisorted pattern sound phasey by comparison.

THey're in the "love or hate" category, as far as my readings of t'internet go. Is the downward bass port tricky in some rooms? My philosophy is to try and turn the room (a very flexy wooden loft extension) into an extension of the driver cabinet, so it seems ideal.

Regards the positive effects of the Zu's height, a lot of exotic horn/big woofer systems seem extremely tall. Perhaps that's part of their sonic appeal?

Regards the positive effects of the Zu's height, a lot of exotic horn/big woofer systems seem extremely tall. Perhaps that's part of their sonic appeal?

This would appear to be the anthromporphic effect again; they're tall, so you get a big sound. Much like silver cable sounding 'brighter' than copper because it's shinier, and valves sounding 'warm' because they glow.

Nice stuff, Kit.

Sources remain the same but my present stuff is Border Patrol Control, Velleman 8xEL34 kit and the LV OBXR2.5. I'll make sure I never recommend any of it to anyone, really. Making kit recommendations is a very dodgy business. My only observation so far of any use is that LV speakers need 190 watts of SS or 90 watts of valve to bring the bass into tune and time.

Anyway, back to you...

my present stuff is Border Patrol Control, Velleman 8xEL34 kit

Damn you move fast, I missed that development.

-- Ian

I'm tempted to slow down a bit with this lot it since seems to fullfil my presnt brief of very good and cheap (the BP is a prototype I got off ebay). I have a lot of equipment for sale.

Careful Alex, I've an itch to try a million different things that I'm trying not to scratch. I'm lucky in that going all digital has boxed me in a bit, but time will tell. I do love cheap(-ish) hifi. It's like shopping at George. I too worry people will think what I recommend is bobbins.

This would appear to be the anthromporphic effect again; they're tall, so you get a big sound. Much like silver cable sounding 'brighter' than copper because it's shinier, and valves sounding 'warm' because they glow.

I don't know about that. There's a definite sense of the music forming a cloud above the listening throne that dips down to meet other parts rsing up from the parts, suggesting each speaker is doing the music is getting done from two ends at once *ahem* Strikes me as an effective cheap trick to increase the overall sense of motion and give the music more breathing room in a small space. Ambient music like Susumu Yokota's sublime The Boy and the Tree sounds really magical. Of course, this may spell terrible integration problems for some folks.

Quite different to woofer/tweeter/woofer with a port at roughly the same height, which blend into one, especially if you're a fair way from them.

I'm not really worried that people'll think my recommendations are bobbins; there are just too many imponderables for recommendations (or slatings) to have any real meaning. I'm incredibly stupid since its taken me about 5 years to realise this.

My recommendation to all is try and build a system you prefer which costs half as much as you'd get for selling the one you've got. It can be surprisingly easy. My other recommendation is don't bother.

Nice stuff, Kit.

Sources remain the same but my present stuff is Border Patrol Control, Velleman 8xEL34 kit and the LV OBXR2.5. I'll make sure I never recommend any of it to anyone, really. Making kit recommendations is a very dodgy business. My only observation so far of any use is that LV speakers need 190 watts of SS or 90 watts of valve to bring the bass into tune and time.

Anyway, back to you...

Hi Alex,

Is this your amp?

http://www.tubedepot.com/diy-k4040.html

I have a Border Patrol pre. I got mine off ebay as well.

Dean

This would appear to be the anthromporphic effect again; they're tall, so you get a big sound. Much like silver cable sounding 'brighter' than copper because it's shinier, and valves sounding 'warm' because they glow.


err no.

horns with big bass drivers give a big sound because you've got massive efficiency and honking great drive units.

Nice stuff, Kit.

My only observation so far of any use is that LV speakers need 190 watts of SS or 90 watts of valve to bring the bass into tune and time.

Anyway, back to you...


I thought the whole thing about LV was their high efficiency....

err no.

horns with big bass drivers give a big sound because you've got massive efficiency and honking great drive units.

Well yeah, but aren't these Zu speakers quite tall and thin, rather than short and squat like the horn thingies? <checks> they're only 11" wide which is quite slim IMO.

Surely having much of the sound coming from above the listeners head rather than ear level makes a difference of some sort? I've seen custom systems with drivers near the ceiling and the floor, and I don't think this is because height is irrelevant.

According to manufacturer hype I've gone from 87dB to 101dB efficiency. But post-EQ the volume dial is pretty much in the same place, so hem hem I do not think.

I've demmed Living Voice (which I imagine measure better than Zu Druids, the Zus being a bit cobblers on that front) against speakers in the 88dB range, and the volume level wan't obviously different. So I don't know. I think efficiency is far from uniform across the frequency range, and the relative audibility of certain frequencies varies significantly with volume.

Well yeah, but aren't these Zu speakers quite tall and thin, rather than short and squat like the horn thingies? <checks> they're only 11" wide which is quite slim IMO.


dead right joe.

my comment was more to the original post which went '' a lot of exotic horn/big woofer systems seem extremely tall. Perhaps that's part of their sonic appeal?"

Im sure that the visual effect of a speaker has an auditory effect, but exotic horn/big woofer sounds big, because the drivers are huge uns!

some call it relaxed sounding, or big, or easy sounding - they are just describing what a big bass cone does with bass IMO. Tannoys do it, JBLs do it, Altecs do it - just all with their own uniqueness.

Hi Dean, yes that's my amp and I like it (it can be had rather cheaper than from that site). I prefer the Dynavector but it is about 10 times the price but since I can't sell it I'm swapping about a bit.

Hi bec143, the LVs are pretty efficient (although as with any speaker specs I've ever seen not quite as efficient as claimed, I'll wager) and an easy load to boot, a steady 6 ohms, but their achilles heel, to my ears, is timing and tune in the mid-bass - stick a big (clean) amp on them and that problem disappears without any noticeable downside.

I've demmed Living Voice (which I imagine measure better than Zu Druids, the Zus being a bit cobblers on that front) against speakers in the 88dB range, and the volume level wan't obviously different. So I don't know. I think efficiency is far from uniform across the frequency range, and the relative audibility of certain frequencies varies significantly with volume.
Yeah, I think you are right there and suspect this may in part be responsible for the mixed reaction some high efficiency ´speaker systems get. For example, the Klipsch heritage range appear to have sacrificed a flat frequency response for efficiency, which will of course be utterly unacceptable for some listeners. The good thing here is that this efficiency allows you some good latitude in tuning the in room response to your taste via the eq. Works for me at any rate.

Stuart.

I'm after the tonally softest, most dynamic sound possible. Chunk is better than sparkle, I'm very prone to finding things hard and bright.

And my goodness, how the Zu Druids have delivered. Fore reference, I spent £153 on CDs at Virgin Megatore this morning. Bravo to royce5 for the hat tip.

Basically, with EQ absolutely laid on with a trowel* they sound exceedingly brown, chunky, cuddly and explosive.

Listening to music is an intensely pleasurable experience. They seem to "pressurise" the room and are very physical as a result. Of course, badly mastered albums can border on nauseating, as I can feel the awfulness squirting all over me.

I say mastered, because the original recording quality doesn't seem to matter so much. Smelly, overloaded dub albums like The Mikey Dread Show (personally recommended by Bub, no less) and raw Soul Jazz compilations like New Orleans Funk come across as a gloriously rich full blooded roar.

I'd still like to build something though. I have audio restlessness and nowhere for it to go! Bring me the plans, Igor.

*I've forgot exactly what I'm using, but there's a step roll off to -15dB in the top and bottom octaves, and a -3dB/octave rolloff across the top half of the spectrum, so the target EQ is flat somewhere around the middle of the scale.

Oo-er, I've had a go at EQ'ing flat at 20-40Hz, average +9dB after having moved the listening chair back against the wall for loadsa reinforcement. Given average listening level and the Zu Druids' real efficiency (somewhere around 93-97dB), I think this means about 5 watts max going into the bass, so not too stressful.

Woo, great! It sounds dead mucky and live, with loads of skin-tingling rumble and thrummy resonance sloshing about. It's quieter than the real thing but to my ear it has the actual heavy and messy texture of real-life volume music. Very realistic, if you take artists in a well damped small room as your reference. Subjectively louder too, so I can knock off a few more notches on the volume control.

It seems everything I like about music is at the bottom end of the scale. With something very sparse like Roscoe Mitchell's Sound Songs (rather melifluous minimalist free jazz), the air seems to hum with a certain kind of energy. Mmm! And at this decibel level, I don't see how much punchier the kick drum and grinding double bass on "Church on Sunday" from Scrapbook by the William Parker Violin Trio could be any punchier. Note that the sound isn't slamming. The more I fiddle about, the more I'm convinced/self-deluded edges in music are really just artefacts.

Problems? A few things sound too low in the mix (eg guitar solos on Pantera's Vulgar Display of Power), but so far a maximum of +3dB on the Panasonic SA-XR70's volume control fixes this, hearing sensitivity not being the same across the spectrum. The warmer balance over the Royd RR2s shows up echoes from the room that the old speakers used to blend into. I think the listening room reverb is actually audible on dry vocals. Heh. That sin more audiophool or flat earth?

The room is ultra live but actual post-EQ the sound out of the speakers soupy. Think Interstellar Space relative to John Coltrane and Johnny Hartman.

Couple of other things. The spatial postioning is more stable, and the music sounds "faster," which I suppose is due to more energy bubbling away in the bottom.

For your pleasure, the Zu Druid measurements:

http://www.zerogain.com/forum/showpost.php?p=167422&postcount=9

Pretty shocking. Their real world efficiency is only 90dB, apparently. I feel embarrassed for liking them!

I own a pair of Druids too, have done for 6 months now. It has to be acknowledged they do alot things wrong, but if you forget about 'Hi-Fi' and Audiophile expectations of presentation, what you get is a tonally accurate, intimate, non-fatiguing and most importantly musical sound. Capable of filling the room with a massive sound, or a small and intimate one

I was about to throw them out, shortly after acquiring them (they sounded so different to anything else) when my local dealer suggested pairing them with the sweet sounding Leben Japanese valve integrated. This has made for quite a magical sounding synergy (Resolution Audio Opus 21 CDP)

Zu’s can easily be the merry-go-round get off

BTW the Zero Gain measurements you list were carried out with the speaker suspended in mid air, so no bass reinforcement from the floor was achieved

Have you experimented much with the base height? Zu recommend 6mm

I love mine to bits. They are ace and with EQ have no shortage of bass heft*, they make the the thickest, most powerful sound I've heard and lower volume than anything else to boot. Intimate is right. Here's my EQ (http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showpost.php?p=288311&postcount=188), btw. They've settled in and feel like "my" speakers, not impostors. They also look fabulous and strange in a non-wanky way.

I just use a square of corkboard under each corner of the plinth. The corkboard is almost exactly the same thickness as a CD jewel case, which I'm told is the recommended optimum.

Why on earth where the speakers suspended in mid air?

*I wonder if they're particularly suited to EQ. Playing a bit of Susumu Yokota they certainly seem to have plenty of xmax!

bonesetter, I'm sure you have an excellent sounding system - I really fancy having a go with a Leben one day....

I think it was SoundStage who originally did the speaker in the air thing which caused so much ridicule for Zu (and which looks as if it has stuck BTW). I think there is a small note in the report accepting the effect of suspension on the bass, but this method of measurement was their standard for all speakers.... I'm still shaking my head

There's alot of stuff on audioasylum about Zu and Druids. Below is nice snippet. The characteristics of the speaker are described well (good and bad ones). And as he says, the designers knew what they were doing making a quirky speaker such as the Druid, with all its compromise. But it works so well overall to produce such a very satisfying sound, that can be loved - even though the they may squawk at you from time to time

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=speakers&n=216126&highlight=zu+druid+measurements&session=

Alex - Auditioning for the Leben was side by side the new croft stuff (battery pre etc) the Sugden (A21 ?) and if memory serves the 47 Lab amps. The leben was the more realistic, open and magical for me - not the most difficult 'Hi-Fi' decision I've ever had to make. Quite a cute amp all round too

Hi,

I find the talk about Zu Druids very interesting. I should be having a listen to a pair very soon. All the reviews and writes have put them in a good light. Hifi World and HIfi+ have mention (and measured) the lower than quoted sensitivity figures. They still gave the speakers the thumbs up.

I have heard the druids twice. Both times at hIfi shows. The first time was brief but interesting. It was at the end of the Manchester show. The next time, at the London Show, they didn't show as good. Both times, different equipment was used to dem the speakers.

The Zu Druid sound like a fun speaker so I look forward hearing them.

The Leban stuff looks interesting. I haven't heard any of it. Nice looking. It has a Luxman look about it. This is no surprise as the designer used to work for them.

Bonesetter, how much are these amps?

Here are some nice pictures of the stuff.


http://www.soundscapehifi.com/leben-cs300-photos.htm

http://www.soundscapehifi.com/leben-integrated.htm#cs-300


Dean

Hi Dean

The Druid is a speaker that likes to be spaced WELL APART

I have them on the long side of my room, firing across the width (16' x 12'). They are spaced 12' apart and their axis cross behind my head (not quite full on). This toe-in gives the 'fullest' sound, and the overall positioning gives a great 'free' feel to the music, which as you turn up the wick, fills the room

If you bring these speakers close together, as in a hotle room at a show, the sound becomes constrained and closed in

Good luck with your Zu auditioning - I had initial bewilderment, coming from multi drive speakers, with razor edged tweeters....

Here is some more pics of the Leben - these ones are of the internals (hand soldered by Japanese ladies)

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/leben/cs300x_2.html

The CS-300 sells for £1500 and CS-300X (Mullard valves and a couple of other minor differences) for a couple of hundred more

The Zu Druid sound like a fun speaker so I look forward hearing them.

Hope you enjoy them Dean. Fun is right. A fair description might be that they are very Flat Earth but with an extremely open if not hugely transparent sound, and they are tonally quite soft. Put them as apart as possible as boney says.

Hi,

This is how they were at the Heathrow show.

http://www.noteworthyaudio.co.uk/csgh06_musicology_1.jpg

Dean

I assume that would sound cobblers.

If (god forbid) I ever ran a hi-fi company, I would call it The Sound Cobblers.

-- Ian

For Sounds with Sole?

Wow, thanks for that amazing photo!

That is quite a striking set-up of the Druids, but is exactly what I was told by that company (who were doing the show, not Zu). They had found a formula I was told, which worked for the druids in ANY room: 63'' apart and toed-in to 45 degrees. This apparently would give any one in the room the same sound....

Most people didn't like how they sounded at Heathrow but, with the usual show caveats, I thought they sounded excellent - doing all the things I like best - fast, dynamic, open: fun; I didn't care much about the things they didn't do well. I'm happy to keep the Living Voice OBXs though; wide placement a good idea with those too.

That sounds like Zu Druids. The closest presentation style I recall heaing to my current setup is a 47 Labs/ LV OBX system, which sounded very good.

I think dissenters may find the Zuids a bit grey and airless, which is prolly why I like them with EQ. The LVs have more Mogami-ness, I think.

If (god forbid) I ever ran a hi-fi company, I would call it The Sound Cobblers.

With lots of advice about toe-in included with your manuals?

[QUOTE=Kit Taylor]*tumbleweed*


The sound is really intimate and powerful, centre vocals often sound like they're inside my head. Trippy. Things have tendancy to melt into one another and drown out quieter parts. Ideal for my tastes, but I think a few people might want something with more edges to grasp. The timing is immaculate, but seems to be of the sort that emphasises deceleration rather than acceleration of tempo. It sucks inrather than blows out, as it were.

QUOTE]

Hi Kit

Wonder if you can shed some advice on my Druid speaker placement.

I'm trying to achieve what you describe above, which is what I had before I changed the CDP (Res Audio Opus 21 to 47 Flatfish). I auditioned the Flatfish at home with a Shigaraki DAC and the sound was liquid, flowing and amazingly musical.

Now, with the Progression DAC I have been struggling with the sound. I can't get the intimacy and powerful centre focus, and the liquid musicality has gone. If I move them closer they squark, and moving them closer to the back wall to try and reinforce everything doesn't seem to work.

How far apart (and how far away) are you listening? Also what toe-in

Any help wold be very much apreciated. Cheers, Nigel

I wondered how they'd work with 47 Labs, which whilst great sounding is not, in my limited exposure, great sounding in the way of being particularly colorful or liquid. The Zu Druids have a "grey-ish" sort of balance, I think.

I have the speakers 6m apart, touching the sidewalls. Firing down the room, facing each other, with me in the middle like I'm wearing a giant pair of headphones. I currently sit 2m away from the centre axis. The closer to the axis, the hotter, darker and sharper the sound.

Weird things happen when the speakers are slose to the walls. They can dry up or bloom, but moving the speakers forwards or backwards along the sidewalls (so the distance between the two speakers stays the same) can fix this.

As the Zus are quite tall and my celing is low, I can hear the zones of reinforcement and cancellation by kneeling down the slowly standing up. The the reinforcement peaks at 60cm then seem to rolloff, so I move my speakers around in 60cm chunks. Might be snakeoil, but give it a go.

Hope that helps. Afraid it's all a bit of a black art to me :-)

Thanks for the reply. Quick update: I had the 47 Lab man around (Martin) before going on holiday, and he seems to have cleared things up. I was running a power conditioner which he took out straight away. He also took out a Transparent power cord and i/c's and replaced them with some 'magic' brown coloured ones. That was pretty much it! Didn't touch the speakers at all!

Sound is now big, rich, sometimes dirty, and always makes you want to turn up the wick even more...

That's great. I've achieved something similar by being anal about speaker placement, taking a leaf out of Mad Romy (http://goodsoundclub.com/Tree.aspx)'s book.

The theory is that really tiny adjustments to the toe in make a big difference, and the bigger the difference the closer you are to get the postioning exactly right. When it's right, the dynamics and timing should sound the same wherever you are in the room, only the tone changes. Also, always place your speakers for maximum perceived dynamics, and the rest takes care of itself. I end up with the speaker axes crossing a little way behind my head.

Now my sound is fairly hot and brown. Ahem. Whatever you do, put the Zu Druids absolutely as far away from each other as possible. They sound cack otherwise. Toe them out to make the sound more nervous, point them directly at each other (like giant headphones) to make the sound calmer. I'm moving more toward the nervous sound. It makes me quiver and vibrate more :-)

Try Wilmslow Audio. These are DIY Speakers but he also builds for you. He has various models on dem at his Leicester premises. I got the Pretige 2 and love em. He builds with the best drivers around, good value. I have heard speakers twice the price of mine that just dont compare.Hes worth a look .https://secure.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/acatalog/Wilmslow_Audio_Wilmslow_Loudspeaker_Systems_1.html
The forte are also a wonderfull speaker, but I didnt like the Centurion personally.