Dear all.

I just put an Expert retipped Troika in my Ittok III/2. Compared to my Klyde (also Expert retipped) is has a little more detail and the treble is more natural and extended. Also the mid is a little fuller. However, the Klyde is (surprise?)not far behind. The Troika is however a lot more sensitive to surface noise and giving 50uV less than the Klyde I think my MC-pre is being pushed. It's going into 100 ohms so I wonder if I'm not giving it optimal conditions and/or the Troika needs to run in to settle.

Thoughts, comments anyone?

Regards,
Rolf

Hi all,

thought my system showed in the signature. It's:

LP12
Lingo1
Ittok LVIII/2
Troika
Nakamichi CA5EII
Nakamichi PA5EII
Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Concert Grand
Cables by Tara, Audioquest and QED

Any thoughts, inputs or comments are most welcome,

Cheers,
Rolf

added: now the signature works. Apparantly log-out and log-in was needed :-)

Well, the famous Internet LP12 FAQ states:

"Klyde built by Goldring for Linn - of virtual Troika quality".

Not sure why the surface noise is more pronounced - I don't think it's the phono stage or the difference in output voltage as the noise output should follow the signal output (?) The Troika may need to "run-in" a bit to smooth out.

You're right Keith, surface noise is of course also just output so it will be in proportion to the music. I'll see what happens over the next month or so.

Regards,
Rolf

Just found this on the web:

"Improperly loaded cartridges exhibit frequency response dips and peaks and often emphasize surface noise"

Maybe the loading should be looked at after all...

Regards,
Rolf

The Troika needs to see a load of 560 Ohms in parallel with 1000pf. Well at least thats what the Naim 'K' MC boards employ specifically for the Linn Karma range. I have also used the Naim 'S' MC boards that have a load of 470 Ohms in parallel with 6800pf with the Troika and by comparison the sound was somewhat lifeless. So in short the resistive and capacitive loadings that the cartridge 'sees' are important.

Also check the tracking weight. Too light and you loose bass and mistrack too high and you a get a thick lifeless sound

BTW surface noise increased in my LP12/Ittok II/Troika setup when I replaced the HiCap with a Supercap on my NAC 82 - a case of opening the window wider and removing the net curtains............

Cheers,

DV

This is my first post, so please be gentle with me? With a nickname like mine and a simularly named cartridge in your player you practically cannot not respond to a topic like this.

I have no idea what a Troika sounds like, it''s just that I think that -in the right surroundings- Klyde is very much better than it's reputation. And no surface noise at all. My player is a fully Naimed LP12, that's with Aro, Armageddon, Prefix/Hi-Cap and a Klyde to do the needlework.

Wouldn't mind hearing a Troika, can you still get them?

Kind regards, Klyde

I used to use a Troika (coupled to LP12/Ekos/Lingo/Cirkus) etc and was amazed at the sound.

When its time had come (the walrus said) I went along and listened to various options and went for a Klyde. The sound it made seemed to capture so much of what the musicians had wanted to create.

Following that a Linn Linto was added and that was a huge leap forward. Personally, I prefer the Klyde/Linto sound to the Troika although at the time I thought it would be hard to beat without spending sums akin to buying a small independant African country.

I suppose that the bottom line is that my music seems much more involving than it did before (Troika times) - even though at the time I thought that was as near to 'state of the art' that my wallet would stretch.

Probably the best thing to do is to find a dealer that you trust to be open minded when you go along and listen. Throw the preconceptions out of the window and buy what you like and not what the magazines or us anoraks tell you will sound best.

Your ears will always tell you what you want to hear.

As a warning though - the sound my set up produced was so awesome that I am in the process of going active and having a room made in our new home (Yorkshire dales barn conversion) specially for the music. (Gold plated anorak still to be delivered....)

Perhaps the blue Dansette would have been best to have kept.

Good luck and keep enjoying the music.

Not sure why the surface noise is more pronounced
stylus profile, perhaps?

stylus profile, perhaps?

It the same stylus Expert have put on both carts (Klyde and Troika). I believe the surface noise might be because of the loading (being 100 ohms/unknown capacitance). I'll hack my MC-stage to 560 ohms || 1nF and see if it changes anything.

Thanks for the thoughts and responses everyone.

Rolf

...
Wouldn't mind hearing a Troika, can you still get them?...

eBay has 'em quite often. I went for an old and cheap one and then had Expert Stylus in UK retip it. Total about £300 for the cart and the retip.

Regards,
Rolf

I was quite surprised when I saw the inside of my preamp - the entire 1/3 right side is the MC-pre. It was easy to change the load (had wifey hold the plyers on one side though and me the soldering iron on the other).

The sound has definitely improved being more life-like though maybe the loading needs to be reduced a little for balance between high and low. It's a tad too bright (compared to my Klyde) however still not quite run in. Something fun to fiddle with for the dark months ahead.

http://www.pichotel.com/pic/21853d8OV/86095.jpg

Might need running in first!

Regards

Longreach may have hit the nail on the head ..ouch

A friend of mine had his Troika re-tipped by Expert and came to the same conclution as you,the brightness will fade over time tracking seems best at about 1.75 grammes,glad your enjoying your cartridges,expert certainly do a great job!

I bought 2 Expert Troikas. They each sounded different and neither sounded as good as an original. I do think Expert are a good company, maybe they have better luck with other carts.

That's strange Alex,i have yet to hear an expert cartridge that does'nt better the original some by a big margin.

The expert Troikas to me sound sweeter and more detailed and have a much faster leaner sound,imho most of the troikas bass was colouration and is redeemed by the mod.

I couldn't do a direct comparison to the original but went from one to a DV20X and was underwhelmed. I then tried the Expert Troikas and was underwhelmed again, moving quickly to a 17D2 which I preferred (it was certainly more detailed with a faster, leaner sound); I'm now on the DV ladder, presently enjoying a Te Kaitora.

Alex,

I'm now on the DV ladder, presently enjoying a Te Kaitora.
Do you have the rua or the regular T-K? I had the original at home for a dem a few years ago and thought it was impressive but I hear that the T-K rua is even better still.

Joe

Hi Joe,

The plain one - the Rua is significantly better but not better enough to tempt me to spend money on one. When the plain T-K dies I will hope to land an XV1 or 1s somehow - these are expensive but real system transformers. Nonetheless, my vinyl is always at risk from workshop activities so I may go back to a 17D2 - It has limitations but its great at what its good at.

Do you still have the xx2 or am I behind the times?

Some carts take to a retip some don't. The very first Koetsu I tried many years ago was a Koetsu Black retip that refused to keep a hold of its stylus. The first time it was sounding progressively worse -- then losing its stylus mid-play. The second time losing its stylus when it reached the centre groove. I'm not sure if its an issue to do with the stylus, the cantilever, the adhesive, the person doing the work having a bad day or whatever but ESCo had on both occasions replaced the Stylus Free of Charge. Sold it for an Onyx which was retipped and was fine. Had many retips since though (some on other Koetsus -- a Red and an Onyx) and all have been fine.

I'm about to get my Benz MO9 shipped off for an ESCo retip as well.

Mr. S,

Do you still have the xx2 or am I behind the times?
Yup, still running an XX-2 and P-75. I'd also like to get a rua or XV-1s but given finances and that I have a young daughter who has a habit of breaking stuff, my next cartridge will have to be something considerably less esoteric than DV's ultimate or penultimate cartridge.

I'll probably get an XX-2 Mk II, which I'm assuming is more of the same. Have you heard one?

http://www.dynavector.com/products/images/xx2mk2_340w_tra.gif

By the way, the 17D2 has been superseded by the 'D3.

http://www.dynavector.com/products/images/17d3_400w.jpg

Joe

Not heard the xx-2 Mk2, I'm afraid - don't suppose you've heard the 17D3...?

Alex,

Nope, though given DV's evolution of sound I'd guess that the 17D3 is a slightly fuller sounding 17D2. But it's just a guess. Only Vuk has the ability to know what something sounds like just by looking at it. ;-)

Joe

Alex,

Nope, though given DV's evolution of sound I'd guess that the 17D3 is a slightly fuller sounding 17D2. But it's just a guess. Only Vuk has the ability to know what something sounds like just by looking at it. ;-)

The 17D3 has a shiny, shimmering sound, while the sound of the XX-2 Mark 2 emerges from an inky blackness.

... and an Esco Troika is like a blowing raspberry ...

I have two re-tipped Troikas - from ES and Garrott Bros. Both sound excellent, the ES version a little fuller, the Garrott a little sharper, but they still have the same characteristic sound and are still great cartridges. I prefer them to the Dynavector 17D2 and XX-2 I owned at various times, which I found colourless and dull.

On an Ekos or Ittok the Troika is still a great cartrridge and a re-tipped one is excellent value compared to some of the newer cartridges.

My Ittok headshell seems ever so slightly bent as the Troika did not sit straight when the arm was horizontal. I've fiddled it so the front of the cart is perpendicular when viewed from the side.

Has anyone else fiddled around like this or should the Troika be a little tipped forwards or backwards or something? Here's what I mean (front *perfectly* perpendicular):

http://www.pichotel.com/pic/21853d8OV/87479.jpg

Regards,
Rolf

Above 'point' that 'ears hear what brain wishes them to' is IMO spot on.

Cart./arms usually should be mounted aptly in relation to platter/vinyl, and Ittok therefore IMO is askew.

With Karma, Troika was my fave. cart before I was forced to leave vinyl as primary source by the market for CD.

Two reasons why I advocate considering NOT spending big sums on cart. these days are:

a) previous paragraph.
b) fact that infinitesimal changes in geometrical positioning of diamond etc/stylus cantilever etc etc can make £13 cart. sound like £3k one and vice-versa.

My Ittok headshell seems ever so slightly bent as the Troika did not sit straight when the arm was horizontal.
I would want to check that the raised lands on the Troika top surface weren't pulling up into the headshell slots.

Paul