Hi guys, thanks for your inputs on best £3000 system thread. I've haven't received feedback from the friend-of-a-friend, but I'd imagine he's scratching his head. I’ll let you know.

Anyway, I recently bought some Art Emotion Signatures (which sound superb by the way) using an Icon Audio 40i valve amp. I plan delegate the Icon back to the bedroom system to power some Art Stiletto’s, so I’m looking for a nice valve power-amp as replacement to work with my Sutherland Director preamp.

I’m either thinking of trying the McIntosh 275 or an Art Audio Jota so far, but as there’s tons of established valve amps, I would appreciate your experience and suggestions.

Many thanks,

Peter

dont forget EAR/Yoshino , beautifully made and sound rather good

If you're after valves that sound cold and analytical rather than warm and cuddly, try Octave V70, a german integrated with external power supply, using KT88 or EL34.

I've heard impressive results with Piega C10 LTD.

Jota rulz!.
I am partial to this amp since I own Jota monos. :)

If you are gonna bother with valve amps, go snigle-ended.
You'd lose a power output compared to the push-pull, but they sound purer and when/if coupled with the right speakers and did not cheap out on the OPTs, they time better.

But like anything, you ought to do a home demo with your preamp.
I've tried many preamps with my Jotas but I regret to say know nothing of your Sutherland preamp. Further more, if you are going to home demo a jota, try to borrow different power tubes. Emisson Lab's 520 is said to be better than the standard KR 300BXLS. I still like the old KR 32B quite a bit over the 300BXLS. I haven't heard the 520 since I can't use those valves on my amps. ( I use now discontinued KR 52BXs which suit me well )

P.S. The obvious choice is Kondo SET amps since your speakers are made for them. But the question is I am not sure if they make anything within your budget.

I think Border Patrol. My £1500 Minimax pre-power runs it close (with NOS valves) but the BP has the edge. Incidentally, I've tried my Minimax with the Emotion Signatures and it worked very very well indeed (the Minimax's magical eight watts probably being a case of extreme pessimism on the part of EE)

Check out german "Octave" (http://www.octave.de/english/products/products.html). They have a range of tube amps, integrated or seperates, all of which are simply stunning. They are very powerful, and don't have that valve typical muddy bass. Instead, real "umph".

Personally, I only know the V70 though...

Tobi.

I think you would be hard pushed to beat this Tube Technology Unisis that is in the privates over on hifi wigwam...an absolute steal!!

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/forum5/6855.html

No questions..if you buy used then these:

Shindo (maybe a Montille integrated or an early pre/power)

Berning ZH-270 (i use one)

Space Tech Labs (all hand made...stunning but you wont get so much money back if you sell..but then this is where the REAL quest for good audio begins)

The berning is a fantastic amp.

Hi guys, I'm not really looking for an integrated!

Kuma,
Have you compared the Jota to Kondo? This is one stunning looking, and apparently, sounding amp. I'm looking for transparency more than power, so a single ended sounds just about right. How's the Jota for bass?

Any views on McIntosh?

ETM,
Not really looking second-hand, but rather to get a deal (IYKWIM). Did you audition any other valves like Art Audio or McIntosh against the Berning?


Keep it coming. Thanks.

Graaf GM50 at £4k new. If you can, I suggest you get your ears on one.

Cheers

Hi

Yeah i've heard many pieces of equipment. The Berning is an OTL amp and has a big following. Mine was modded by Allan Bhagan so its a little better than stock form. Sonically it is lightening fast with tremendous clarity and tone. Bass extension and quality is awesome.

I'm currently using this with a Shindo Monbrison preamp. Listening to Berning and Shindo has caused a mini revolution in my system...just so musical.

http://www.davidberning.com/index.htm
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/shindo/monbrison.html

Check out the reviews of the Berning on the website.

McIntosh will always be a top performer and they have looks to die for in my opinion. Great musicality.

Kondo is good but if you can find an item for £5k i'd be surprised. I thought it was even more pricey than Shindo.

Havent heard the ART Audio amp so cant comment.

Any views on McIntosh?


I owned the McIntosh before buying the Berning. There is no comparison IMHO. To me, the Berning is a quite extraordinary amp in many ways.

PMR,

The Kondo amps are marvelous. I haven't ABed in my system, but they tend to sound more linear than any Art Audio amps. A tonal purity and transparency ( at least with the 211 Ongaku integrated ) I am venturing to say is better.

With Jota, you get a nice balance of an increased output power, midband clarity and bass agility at a reasonable cost. But you do sacrifice a bit on a tonal purity and that expansive soundstage ( common with a 300B types ) many SET listeners look for.

They are both fast and have a good SET *see-through* quality with an exceptional bass reach, details and decay.

Depending on your room size and listening habits, you might be able to get away with a AA's Diavolo. You cut down on a power ( from 20-24 watts to 13 watts ), you'd gain a better midrange. It uses all valve rectification opposed to Jota's solid state soft start and for a stereo amp, it's a dual mono construction. ( Jota is not )

There seem to be two camps in SET sound. The amps with a typical old school voicing (Cary, AN UK et all ) and the amps with more modern sound with a less audible distortion and colourations.

Both amps belong to the latter category which I prefer. If someone gifted me with a Kondo amp, I won't be complaining. :p

A Mac is a completely different amplifier all together. I don't particularly care for their house sound. It offers big and powerful American sound but I found them slow, veiled and lack in microdynamics on all frequencies.

p.s. Jota's bass: One of the best bass delivery ( it's articulate but sounds natural ) you hear from a directly heated single-ended design. No sloppy and indecisive bass here when used with appropriate speakers.

Thanks Kuma, that's really useful.

Hmm, it appears the McIntosh probably won't rock me. I think the lower output won't be a problem with the Diavola, so let me short list this to listen.

Time to research the Berning I guess. Doesn't appear to have the looks of the Art Audio, but I hope to find a review somewhere and then a dealer?

The tube technology Unisis (signature) is a great integrated valve amp. Its much faster & articulate than one imagines a valve amp to be. It is also reasonably powerful for an integrated valve amp at 35 wpc. Looks gorgeous to.

PMR,

Since your speakers might be able to be driven with a lower power, if you are going to audition the Berning, try their single-ended Siegfried, too. It's a directly heated triode with no negative feedback design like all the AA SET amps.

I haven't heard this unit and yes.. it's fuggly.
With your speakers, luckily you get much wider amp choices.

Whatever you choose, a power aside make sure it locks in well with your preamp.

hi

Yeah second hand units are very hard to come by...i'm not planning to sell mine unless i find a pair of Shindo 300b's :)

There is a dealer in holland www.highend-broker.com who has a modded one for 4000 euros.

Check out the reviews on the berning website and also on the forums at audiogon and audioasylum.

Richard

Thanks Kuma, that's really useful.

Hmm, it appears the McIntosh probably won't rock me. I think the lower output won't be a problem with the Diavola, so let me short list this to listen.

Time to research the Berning I guess. Doesn't appear to have the looks of the Art Audio, but I hope to find a review somewhere and then a dealer?

dont forget EAR/Yoshino , beautifully made and sound rather good


I second this. Recently sold a Kondo amp, using an EAR/Yoshino 834T since, and did not look back, very smooth, really powerful, first class 100W integrated amp.

I second this. Recently sold a Kondo amp, using an EAR/Yoshino 834T since, and did not look back, very smooth, really powerful, first class 100W integrated amp.
Which speaker do you use?

Which speaker do you use?

ProAc Response 1 SC, Castle Richmond 3i, ProAc Response D80, ProAc Response 4, Avantgarde Trio, even with a Naim Allae. It was really nice with the Response 4, D80 but I liked it very much with the Allae as well. I think the sound of the D80 is quite close to the mentioned Art Emotion.

Other nice amp is the Leben CS-300X, works perfectly well with the Response D80, so can work with the Art as well. It is probably too cheap to be taken really seriously, which is a big mistake...

Nice selection of speakers there but as a former owner of the D80 and D100, I'd have to say they sound very different to the Art Emotion, and IMHE really only sing at their best on the end of 100w + valve amps.

I second the vote for the Leben being great value...its a stunning little amp. Surprised it could power those big Proacs...dont they have ATC drivers?

I second the vote for the Leben being great value...its a stunning little amp. Surprised it could power those big Proacs...dont they have ATC drivers?

The D80s are quite easy to drive, they are not a Response 4. The Leben CS-300X could deal with it quite nicely with strong woofer control and rhythmically flawless. The overall volume is limited of course, but I could not reach its limit yet. The Leben is absolutely wonderful with the Response 1 in a near field listening situation (I have a Leben/Response 1 on my office desk), I can not imagine anything significantly better. The speaker cables were Audience Au24s.

The D80s are quite easy to drive, they are not a Response 4.
Their sensitivity is high-ish, but not great.
Without knowing their xovers, phase angle or the entire impedance plot, my gut tells me that 5 drivers per side do not make the life of most single-ended amplifier easier. Unless driven in a small room and no techno at a silly volume. They might do okey on the midrange at a low to moderate volume.

Did your Kondo amp have a multiple tap?
Or do they custom match to the speaker's impedance?

Enjoythemusic,

I don't think D series use the ATC drivers any longer. ( which might help )

But a larger Proac for the most part, has been better off with a larger amplifier from my experience.

Kuma, the D100 uses the ATC mids. The D80 is an easier load and is more efficient than Living Voice Avatars.

It does however perform at it's best with something rather more powerful than a SET or low powered PP 300b - although their use will not prohibit headbanging.

.

Did your Kondo amp have a multiple tap?


I had an original Kageki with multiple tap.

Merlin,

Thanks for the clarification. i haven't heard their new D series speakers at all.

It's interesting that you also found an efficiency figure alone does not tell how easy for any speakers for their optimum performance.

endust.

*cough*.

You used a 2A3 amp with the Proacs? :o

I think out of your list, the Avant Garde is pretty much the only sepakers suited for it.

No wonder you switched to an EAR amp.

You used a 2A3 amp with the Proacs? :o

I think out of your list, the Avant Garde is pretty much the only sepakers suited for it.

No wonder you switched to an EAR amp.


Never say never :-) Wrong conclusion.

I was living with the Kageki and the Trio for more than 5 years, the ProAcs were tried in my other system and in the office (and actually they are used nowadays there with the mentioned Leben and Naim and Altmann products). So the reason why I sold the Kageki was not its driving capability regarding the ProAcs. Far from it. After the very sad death of Mr Kondo, somebody made me an offer for the Kageki and I could not resist. It was really a rare piece, as I know (from PQ), only 5 of them were ever made by Mr Kondo, and the Kageki was his personal favorite amp.

When its gone I thought it will be very difficult to find something similarly beautifully sounding. But I tried the EAR 834T, and on a bit different way it is as much if not more enjoyable as the Audio Note was. I am using it on Trio as well, but tried with the different mentioned ProAc and Castle speakers. The EAR 834T is smooth, detailed, but not euphonic, it has punch, grip and prat. Very unusual sound quality in its price range, really understated and I like the look as well.

Border Patrol and Art Emotions, although I've not heard them together myself, are reputed to work superbly in partnership. For confirmation you could speak to Tom Tom/Sound Practice.

Hi,

I am using an AN KIT One (300B) partnered with CDX2 / XPS2 and ARC 101 speakers with great results.
If you are a little bit talented with soldering Iron, this KIT is really a very good VFM with nice upgrades possibilities...

Best regards

Jean-Claude

Any views on the Cayin Audio?

Cheap Chinese copies IMO. Not on a par IME with Prima Luna for quality. Not on the same planet as some of the amplifiers being discussed here. But try to get a listen to as many options as possible to get a feel for the differences.

Never say never :-) Wrong conclusion.
well, I gotta hear the 8 watts driving D80 well to believe that.

I think that the Allaes might be okey, but the room needs to be smallish as they also need a power to control their somewht fruity bottom end. But I bet they sound pretty good with at a moderate volume. The Allaes sounded just wonderful with my SET amps. I definitely prefer them over the 300 in all Naim rig.

I haven't heard any EAR amplifiers. Only their phono and line stages.

I think you would be hard pushed to beat this Tube Technology Unisis that is in the privates over on hifi wigwam...an absolute steal!!

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/forum5/6855.html

I'd agree fully with the above, I've heard this amp and its superb. I am currently selling an Icon Audio 40i and this is a big step up in terms of grip, soundstaging and imaging. At the price advertised on wigwam its a steal.

EAR amps vary Kuma. The solid state brigade seem to prefer the 890 as it's muscular and in an A-B against some of the more subtle options, the 890 often wins out. It wouldn't be my choice. The 509 monoblocks are legendary and the 519 is TdP's favourite tube allegedly (but by design have to be less pure and subtle than some of the brothers in the range). He is famed for saying things such as being able to design anything and allegedly designed the mad V20 in homage to a Jaguar V12 engine as a Jaguar enthusiast. The less kind version is that he had an awful lot of tubes to use up (I don't recall whether it uses 6922, ECC82 or ECC83 but think it's one of these and again is arguably a less pure design).

I loved the 869, seemed to have more precision and accuracy than any amp I have listened to and I just might live with one some day to get it out of the system. The 861 is allegedly even better too with sophistication and subtlety. As ever, I think speakers are really important and need to be top class to show off what the EAR amps (and Border Patrol and others mentioned on the thread) can really do. The one thing you won't find in EAR amps is remote control.

AFAIK all are transformer-based designs of course. They won't win over the OTL fans nor make it into Fox's 'Good Life' ecoclub.

when I heard your speakers at a show (and it was only a show), they were driven by Naim amps.

The bass sounded overly full.

I would look at amps with a really tight control over the bass.

If you want that from a valve, try something with a large bank of 6550's - like one of Audio Research's bigger efforts.

Two Premier 11a's can be bought (I just sold mine for £1280 ish) and monoblocked, which is the equivelant of larger CJ Premier series - this will give you about 150w per channel.

Your speakers wont know what hit them.

well, I gotta hear the 8 watts driving D80 well to believe that.





It was really nice, of course not for headbangers, but I am not one of them anyway. The sound was full and detailed and smoooooth. No hardness at all with surprisingly fast and controlled bass.

The EAR 509 Anniversary monoblocks or the EAR 834T Mos-Fet integrated amps are driving them with more control to much higher volume. Regurarly the Kagekis were used on an Avantgarde Trio as I mentioned earlier. The EAR V20 works well with the D80 as well and absolutely beautiful with the Response 1 SC in a near field listening situation.

The other very surprising combination with the D80 is the Altmann car battery driven BYOB amp. 10W at 8 ohm, but drives and controls the D80 surprisingly well. Struggles a little bit with the Response 4.

AFAIK all are transformer-based designs of course. They won't win over the OTL fans nor make it into Fox's 'Good Life' ecoclub.

Do not forget the 834T. It is a bit like the 509, but with more punch and a tiny bit less romanticism. I like it very much. One of the most enjoyable integrated amp I have ever heard.

No hardness at all with surprisingly fast and controlled bass.
I can see that. It sounds a bit like when I used a 300B stereo amp ( 10 watts or so ) into my 87db. 4 ohm standmounts. I was surprised actually the bass didn't go to shit.

However, for my listening habits, no matter how nice it was, it just didn't have enough stamina!

The EAR V20 works well with the D80 as well and absolutely beautiful with the Response 1 SC in a near field listening situation.

A near-field is nice and you can get away with lesser power amps. My listening room is not that large, but I listen approx. 10 -12ft. away and I want a big sound when I want it. ( there's definately something cool about that )
A Response 1SC couldn't survive in my room and my listening habits. :\

Do not forget the 834T. It is a bit like the 509, but with more punch and a tiny bit less romanticism. I like it very much. One of the most enjoyable integrated amp I have ever heard.

May I ask if the 834T is in single-ended topology like the 859? I'm seriously interested in the Leben CS-300x right now, thinking of getting back to valves (currently have a 202/200), and making things simpler with an integrated.

How does the Leben compare to the 834T? Do you have a clear favorite?

A 834T is a solid state amp? Am i missing something?
http://www.ear-usa.com/earproducts.htm
According to this , this is just a MOSFET amp.

Kuma:
Yes, you are right. The output stage is the same as the very expensive EAR M100A solid state monoblock amp and it has an output transformer which is a bit different, not exactly the same size, but the same construction like the M100A's.

TdP used to say it does not matter if it uses tube or solid state output, the voicing is roughly the same, he is not too far from the truth. The 834T sound is quite close to the 509, it is not as romantic as the V20 or the normal tube 834, it has a bit drier, a bit more "neutral" sound, shows bigger difference between components than the V20 or the 509, 834. I like it a lot. Even after the AN Kageki.

Ray:
The Leben is a very, very good tube amp. Very smooth, detailed and very easy to listen, you get everything what you like in a tube amp, you can compare it to ANY of the SE triode amps quite favorably, even if the other amp is 10x-15x more expensive. There is a very good chance you will like the Leben more, it has a quite seductive fluidity. But you need a speaker for its 15W. I am very happy with it on my Trio, but for nearfield listening it works well with the ProAc Response 1 SC or the small Tablettes as well. However at the moment I like a the EAR 834T a bit better, even on the Avantgarde Trio. I do not know exactly why, probably a bit more punch is the reason?. So at the moment I am using the 834T and the Altmann BYOB amp in my home with the Altmann DAC on the Trio, and using the Leben with another Altmann DAC on the Response 1 in the office.

A Response 1SC couldn't survive in my room and my listening habits. :\

The new ones might surprise you Kuma ;-)

PMR, if you are interested in hearing a Berning ZH270, I'm more than happy to let you hear mine. It's an amp I am quite fanatical about.

It made a wonderful partner for the Proac D80, and an even greater one for the Merlins and the JBL's. It's the amplifier that I understand Sonus Faber choose to use as a reference, and it's easy to hear why.

It's strengths are inner transparency, bass control (unlike any tube amp I have heard), and a complete lack of tube glare. Anyway, the offer is there if you want to PM.

The new ones might surprise you Kuma ;-)
You mean they don't sissy out any longer? :p

It's the amplifier that I understand Sonus Faber choose to use as a reference, and it's easy to hear why.
Serblin doesn't use Krell amps any longer?
For a long time he used them in his studio.

Kuma,

According to the reports I've seen, he's been using the ZH270 for years. The presence of the Krells no doubt helps for photo shoots ;-)

I think Border Patrol.

I think so too.

Peter,

I too love my Benchmark. I use Papworth M100 mono's, which use EL34's.
They just play music... no fuss.. no slushy nostalgia and no EAR 834 type hardness. Also in the range. TVA10 50 wpc stereo power. TVA10i integrated.
M200 mono's (EL 34) M300 mono's (KT 88's) and a truly huge M400 mono. All within your budget, except possibly M400.

Call Eddy Fincham on 01223 416078, for prices and availability, dems etc. I can dem M100 and TVA 10 in Merseyside, if that helps. Eddy's only likely to answer on Mondays, or if you leave a message. He spends the rest of his time building for export, mostly to the far east. Try 'em. You'll either like 'em or not.

Mull

Thanks for the reply, endust. I'll try to sought out a Leben.

By chance, I have just had the basic Emotion speakers for a weeks audition. I thought they were nice, but they did'nt blow my socks off. I would be interested if you compared yours with basic speaker and what difference you noted. I found them better than my Living Voice Avatrs, but not £5000 better. They were also significantly less sensitive, you may think about a SET, but I would think 20watts would be a minimum.
My SET is being repaired and the dealer lent me A Renaisance pre and 22Watt 300B monoblocks, they were REALLY nice, but at £9000, out of your price range. I could'nt use the Emotions against my Viva Solista(22watt 845 SET integrated), but I think they would be a great match. The Viva is the best amp I have heard in my system, at £7000, again out of your range, but Nick at the Emporium in Diss who imports them, sometimes has nearly new or ex dems in stock.

I thought that a Solista outputed 18 watts.

I thought that a Solista outputed 18 watts.

The earlier Sintessa was rated at 18watts, the Solista is 22 and sounds louder than the 50watt Lavardin IT I use in the Summer.

Hi Guys

More votes for the Leben. Stunning little amplifiers.

Both the standard 300 and the 300X. I can confirm that they will drive loads that on paper seem way beyond their wildest dreams, such as Sonus Faber Guarneri. No, really!

Of course, if you want a little more grunt, there’s the 600, or the pre-powers.

Also, my love for Shindo is endless... ask the Emporium if they can help you out. I know they have an Allegro for sale at a ridiculously good price. They may have a power amplifier available as well. Shindo really is world class.

Martin.

Hi,

Having had both i'd say the Berning...easily. It is double to price though but worth every penny and more.

The Leben is amazing though, wonderful midrange and overall quality.

I've been playing around with the Berning and a Shindo Monbrison preamp over the week. As always its been difficult to judge big differences until i bought a couple of RCA splitters, then i could flick the Shindo in and out of the preamp path....

...result...after a 3 hrs flicking (oo-er missus) i've decided the Berning is better on its own.

It is most likely the case that:

1. The Berning pre-section is already excellent (and could be better with NOS input tubes).

And/Or

2. The Shindo and the Berning do not match so well technically. It did take a few hours to adjust the Berning gain to match the Shindo. The Shindo volume is tapered by design and therefore does not offer a linear control for a given setting on the Berning...if you get what i mean? Crikey i've impressed myself.

Anyway i heartily recommend the Leben for 1500/2000 used/new and the Berning for 2500/4000 used/new.

Shindo - i am holding out on making firm judgements until i've heard the Monbrison (and the twin box Lepin preamp arriving soon) with both the Corton Charlmagne and the Pavillon Rouge monoblocks (due to arrive tomorrow or monday). I am very sure the brand offers excellent sonics but require brand synergy and sensitive speakerzzzz.

Cheerio

Richard

There's a lot to digest.

Basically, we have Berning, Art Audio, EAR, Border Patrol, Shindo and Leben.

I must admit, the EAR 834T seemed really interesting, but it would be nice if I could keep my Sutherland Director peamp / valve power-amp only. I'd hate to say that looks are important, but ... Audio is rather glowing.

Anyone else heard Art gear and compared?

Peter

Don't forget that it's possible to bypass this kind of list and pick up a rarity or two as you get to know people. Manfacturers produced prototypes from time to time, sometimes over-specced them, enthusiasts may well have cared for kit and modified it along the way. Some of the reuslts cna be surprising. This is how I came to use Audio Innovation monoblocks using 6B4G valves which were not production items. Amps I really like and in my chosen amp route a level of performance which would otherwise have eluded me for the money I had available.

Hi,

Having had both i'd say the Berning...easily. It is double to price though but worth every penny and more.


I've been playing around with the Berning and a Shindo Monbrison preamp over the week. ...result...after a 3 hrs flicking (oo-er missus) i've decided the Berning is better on its own.


I'd tend to agree Richard. I found only a minor change when adding a preamp, and in reality the Tom evans only really adds a little drive, which is noticable on some music. The Berning by itself is astonishingly pure, and it takes an extremely fine preamp to not interfere with it. I'm thinking along the lines of the TEAD, the NAC552 potentially, and possibly the ARC Ref 3. Generally I'd steer clear of valves - I can't think of a valve pre that dovetails with the Berning's obvious strengths, with the possible exception of the ARC.

Do change those input valves though - you will hear a whole new layer of inner detail.

PMR,

I think you've got a good list there for a home demo.
The key is for you to find out which flavour you prefer amongst them and to see if any of the amps match with your current preamp.

M,

Did you ever try a good passive preamp with tape loop? I'm using the VSM's with the BAM inbetween the cd and ZH270.

Or is active better? I was thinking maybe an FM Acoustics FM-155.

Richard

I did try one of the Music First Passives but found it rather disappointing and lacking in comparison to running direct. Maybe it's a mismatch but I know others who have been unimpressed. It might be worth trying one in your own system.

Yeah i read the Positive feeback dude was using a First Sound Deluxe preamp...will try out the Monbrison with the same brand monos and see what happens.

Interestingly a polish guy came to collect a victor cd today (who also attended the Floyd gigs lucky sod) and he loved the Leben in comparison. Although looking i had drunkenly set things up wrong..haha what a fantastic dealer i am....although he is now buying the Leben...maybe i'm not so stupid after all.

I think if people are looking for that warm glow of a traditional valve midrange, then they are going to be happier with an old style amp, based around EL34 or even 300B.

The Berning is all about unadulterated clarity with a bottom end no other valve amp gets close to IME. That clarity is unforced (unlike most SS competition), and there is a total lack of grain or sparkle at the top end. A very unique sound from a unique amplifier.

But I can understand some preferring a more cuddly presentation.

yeah i agree..bottom end was the stand out feature when i compared the ZH-270 to the Monbrison in the loop...all the rest seemed samey.

I'm not so bat-eared and listen mostly in macro...i guess piano tuning isnt going to be a realistic job for me.

By chance, I have just had the basic Emotion speakers for a weeks audition. I thought they were nice, but they did'nt blow my socks off. I would be interested if you compared yours with basic speaker and what difference you noted. I found them better than my Living Voice Avatrs, but not £5000 better.

The basic Emotion is only £500-£2000 more than the OBX/Avatars. Having own the Auditoriums, and having heard OBX2 at LV, the Emotion's are importantly full range and offer a far more appreciative presentation. As for the Emotion Signatures, they are in a completely different league. They remove a pretty huge veil really, and present the music with greater clarity and separation, while retaining the musicality/emotion so loved in the basic model.

The Emotion Signatures essentially give you better HIFI without the usual negatives. Given their £9000 price tag, I could argue that’s probably a little high, but I couldn’t find another speaker that presented music with all the same merits, given my taste and gear that is.

Now a new valve amp..., but what one?

I have Art Audio amplification. Carissa power + the VPS DM pre.

They power a set of OBX-R2's. When I bought the amp's I listened to them through the Emotion sigs just to see what sort of speaker upgrade that they could stand. If I ever have £9k to spend on speakers they're what I'd buy.

They sounded sublime and hard to imagine anything more realistic - if that isn't too 'hi-fi'.

TdP used to say it does not matter if it uses tube or solid state output, the voicing is roughly the same, he is not too far from the truth. The 834T sound is quite close to the 509, it is not as romantic as the V20 or the normal tube 834, it has a bit drier, a bit more "neutral" sound, shows bigger difference between components than the V20 or the 509, 834. I like it a lot. Even after the AN Kageki.

Ray:
The Leben is a very, very good tube amp. Very smooth, detailed and very easy to listen, you get everything what you like in a tube amp, you can compare it to ANY of the SE triode amps quite favorably, even if the other amp is 10x-15x more expensive. There is a very good chance you will like the Leben more, it has a quite seductive fluidity. But you need a speaker for its 15W. I am very happy with it on my Trio, but for nearfield listening it works well with the ProAc Response 1 SC or the small Tablettes as well. However at the moment I like a the EAR 834T a bit better, even on the Avantgarde Trio. I do not know exactly why, probably a bit more punch is the reason?. So at the moment I am using the 834T and the Altmann BYOB amp in my home with the Altmann DAC on the Trio, and using the Leben with another Altmann DAC on the Response 1 in the office.


How does EAR 859 compare with others you mentioned here?

Hey anubisgrau.

Which valve pre did you end up with your active ATC?

i've recently heard an active 20 with an Art Audio VPS/DM pre, and boy it wasn't bad at all. I prefer this over the EAR linestage.

Surprising, cuz, i don't even think that the impedance match with the 20 is exactly ideal. :o

Quad. Marvellous.

Hey anubisgrau.

Which valve pre did you end up with your active ATC?

i've recently heard an active 20 with an Art Audio VPS/DM pre, and boy it wasn't bad at all. I prefer this over the EAR linestage.

Surprising, cuz, i don't even think that the impedance match with the 20 is exactly ideal. :o

hi kuma,
i eventually bought cary slp-98L. i got one much cheaper than anything else being on offer so i decided to bite a bullet. very juicy & musical, just what ATCs need in order to wake them up, plus very soft upper mids to tame a harshness that can occur with less than perfect recordings. no problems with fr. extremes.
i can actually see why some people find cary too euphonic, but paired with ATCs they are very good.
also, not a heavenly match on paper as far as impedances go (as well as sensitivities, but luckily there are gain trims both on speakers and preamp), but i can't hear it. maybe i'm deaf.
i'm fully confident that ATC/EAR is not the best combination around. ATCs definitely don't like SS-like sounding amps, they need something on a warm-ish side

ATCs definitely don't like SS-like sounding amps, they need something on a warm-ish side

That's a taste thing. When I had active ATCs I preferred them with solid state preamps rather than tubes, but I can see why some people prefer the opposite.

-- Ian

That's a taste thing. When I had active ATCs I preferred them with solid state preamps rather than tubes, but I can see why some people prefer the opposite.


agree, although i am not actually sure about my ATCs. i don't have a regular domestic version but an ugly, blue-grayish one with no grilles and with older VIFA tweet. the whole box is made out of some metal and i had a sort of hallucination that they sound even colder than normal ones (possibly based on their look). with krell preamp they sounded really clinical and even harsh, although they handled rather complex orchestral passages like i've never heard before from a speaker of that size/configuration in a 22m2 (3m cieling) room.

Ian.

Not all valve preamps sound blatantly *valve* as some solid state preamps don't sound so solid state like.

If you ever heard the active ATC and VPS, you'd never guess it's valved. Switch over to an EAR pre, I thought it was all solid state albeit a bad one. :\

anubisgrau.

Cary! :0
Personally it would make me nuts, but if you like it that's what matters.

Congrats.

Another way to get rid of *harshness* is to rewire your ATC with aftermarket cables or pay attention to your mains and cables ( power and interconnect leads ). They can pay off.

Not all valve preamps sound blatantly *valve* as some solid state preamps don't sound so solid state like.

I'm not sure I was suggesting they do. Anyway, I can't really see the point of preamps at all, they're best avoided if at all possible IMO. If that's not possible, I personally want something that, subjectively at least, colours the sound as little as possible. Speakers (any of them) are coloured enough as it is for me.

-- Ian

well, I guess a decent passive can be better than a bad active preamp since good ones are so rare.

but the whole passive thing has their own baggage, too. A bad passive sounds really bad.

Cary! :0
Personally it would make me nuts, but if you like it that's what matters.



:)

why, didn't know that cary has a lousy reputation?

nah. many ppl. love the Cary sound.

It has more of that archetypical rosy valve thing.

I don't own valve gear for that.

well, I guess a decent passive can be better than a bad active preamp since good ones are so rare.

Well, I don't use any kind of preamp, active or passive, and prefer it that way. I wasn't suggesting passives over active either, I don't think passives are inherently low colouration, that depends on all sorts of impedence matching questions, quality of the pot, etc. I have heard the oft-described effect of a poorly matched passive draining life out of the music. I've also heard active preamps adding all kinds of flavour of their own.

-- Ian

How do you change a volume?

You must use some sort of device for that.
Isn't an input chooser a form of a passive? ( attenuator of some sort )

nah. many ppl. love the Cary sound.

It has more of that archetypical rosy valve thing.

I don't own valve gear for that.


dont believe the hype. yes, it has a very pulpable midrange, but it still doesn't have a splashy bass and dark highs. for 500 pounds i don't complain.

I don't belive in hype. I believe in what I hear.

Anyway, enjoy! ( not everyone loves what I use, either ) ;)

Isn't an input chooser a form of a passive? ( attenuator of some sort )

No, it's just an input switch. The power amp has attenuators. This is not the same as a passive preamp, of course. No impedence issues for a start.

-- Ian

Which attenuator does your power amp use?

I believe Kimura uses Cermets (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cermet). Dual mono, so one per channel.

-- Ian

Hi PMR,

The list of Berning, Art Audio, EAR, Border Patrol, Shindo and Leben is an interesting one.

I use a Border Patrol S10 single ended amp. Single ended amps can have very simple circuits but also can be flawed. Excellent mid range but lacking at the extremes. To get round this requires quality transformers and power supplies. An interstage transformer can help as well. This puts up the cost. When done right they can be very good. The downside can be the low power rating which requires high sensitive speakers. Parallel single ended amps will have extra power.

The Border Patrol don't suffer from the rosy, valvey soft sound of some valve amps. I have heard a Art Audio around the same price but much prefered the Border Patrol with my varied musical tastes.

I have heard various EAR items over the years to very good effect.

I have not heard the Leben amps. I have heard some Shindo in the past. The Shindo look very interesting.

I have recently heard Stereo Mic's Berning amp in his system. Top notch it is too. Well worth a listen if you can get hold of one. If you want one, you will need to import one or find one 2nd hand.

For £5000 new, you would be looking at the Border Patrol 300B or the P21. The 300B is a 8 watt single ended amp and the P21 is a 20 watt push pull amp. I have read of excellent reports of the Art Emotion Signatures with Border Patrol amps. The 8 watt version will drive you speakers but may be under powered for your tastes. P21 will do more than ok but won't have the single ended magic. The other Border Patrol options will be more costly new.

What you need to do is listen to the options. There not many dealers of this gear. Where are you based? There are about 4 Border Patrol dealers and small amount of Art Audio dealers.

One place I would try is Definitive Audio near Nottingham. Kevin Scott is a Border Patrol and Art Audio dealer plus he has other werid and wonderful valve amps in stock for under £5000. Looking at his current Exdem/2hand list, he has both the Border Patrol 300B and P21 in at £3200. He has some Canary amps, a Macintosh and some interesting Mactone amps. It would be worth giving Kevin a ring.

http://www.definitiveaudio.co.uk/stuff.htm

The only place I'm aware of Shindo stuff in the UK is at Emporium hifi. No idea of the price.

http://www.emporiumhifi.co.uk/Pages/ModernPages/ValveM.html

Leben are handled by RT services. They start at £1600.

http://www.rtsaudio.co.uk/amps.html

Any of these amps will give you good performance.

Dean

How does EAR 859 compare with others you mentioned here?

any opinions on or experiences with EAR 859?

A couple of years back the Quad boys had a setup at the Heathrow show fronted by Tony Faulkner's Magnteo-Optical recorder playing some of his LSO Live session tapes through 989 'speakers & their new valve amps connected with 25p a metre mains lead from B&Q over the road.
Next door was the big Absolute Sounds dem room, latest Watts & Puppies, Krell blast furnesses etc. etc. ad nauseam hooked up with....wait for it....the latest space age speaker hawser at, and I kid you not, $900 a metre.
I hardly have to tell y'all that the Septics gear got crapped on from a collossal altitude. Andy Grove (who designed the QC 24 pre & ll-Forty power amps) REALLY knows his onions. And Quad's Chinks also know how to screw them together.

Hope this helps,

Regards, H.

P.S. Tim de Pavaricini is a loony. A genius, but a loony...

Quad's Chinks


Charming turn of phrase there.

-- Ian

any opinions on or experiences with EAR 859?

ok it's a million dollar question i suppose

Quad's Chinks

Who are *quad's chinks*?

SCIDB

I hear what you say about Border Patrol, but the Symphony looks...

http://www.peterruler.com/HIFI/Symphony.jpg

just so lovely.

That's a good sounding 300B amp!
I tried one against my Jotas and I see why many folks like the 300B valve.

It could be said that after 50 years, Quad now has some chinks in their armour...

I'll get me coat....

nah. many ppl. love the Cary sound.

It has more of that archetypical rosy valve thing.

I don't own valve gear for that.

That's odd......
The last Cary's I heard were at a Manchester show around '98.
Warm and rosy they weren't.
What they were was over (possibly falsely) detailed. Ringing like bells.
Horrible.

I s'pose they could have changed their house style since.

Mull

Mull,

Which Cary?

Their high-powered valve can sound like a horrible solid state amp from hell. ( Slam 100 & 1610 monos )

Altho, at the shows, exhibitors tend to go overboard on a volume knob.

My fiancee is from Shanghai.
She is a Chink.
I am a Limey.

and I bet you'd love to invade her every nite.

anyone familiar with tube technology prophet preamp?
just seen one in classifieds - i was attracted with rather interesting extremely low impedance (only 27ohm). pretty much what i was looking when i was buying a preamp for my ATCs.
it looks very solid too, with PSU separated. damn, i'd love to try it with ATCs

Tube Technology have a very poor reliability record and an even worse customer service one.

I'd love to line one of the above recommended ones up against my home/project built amp. I've only heard a few other tube amps at Hifi shows and it's really difficult to judge much at these.
The amp was designed to compete in the £3000 upward bracket.
Anyone in the Surrey/Hant's/Berkshire borders got a nice tube amp and wanna compare?

Must be a Marshall of some sort...

Tube Technology have a very poor reliability record and an even worse customer service one.

your having a laugh aint ya?

TT gives by far the best customer service i`ve ever experienced, phoned up a couple of times, and Zia has been fab and courteous. Extremely helpful and loves to chat. maybe you have had a bad experience?

your having a laugh aint ya?


Sadly not. I know if five friends who wouldn't go near the kit again - one of whom has been without his power amp on and off for 14 months of his 18 month ownership.

Maybe you got lucky - maybe they were unlucky. But I know of enoujgh issues to make me cautious.

EAR amps vary Kuma. The solid state brigade seem to prefer the 890 as it's muscular and in an A-B against some of the more subtle options, the 890 often wins out. It wouldn't be my choice. The 509 monoblocks are legendary and the 519 is TdP's favourite tube allegedly (but by design have to be less pure and subtle than some of the brothers in the range). He is famed for saying things such as being able to design anything and allegedly designed the mad V20 in homage to a Jaguar V12 engine as a Jaguar enthusiast. The less kind version is that he had an awful lot of tubes to use up (I don't recall whether it uses 6922, ECC82 or ECC83 but think it's one of these and again is arguably a less pure design).

I loved the 869, seemed to have more precision and accuracy than any amp I have listened to and I just might live with one some day to get it out of the system. The 861 is allegedly even better too with sophistication and subtlety. As ever, I think speakers are really important and need to be top class to show off what the EAR amps (and Border Patrol and others mentioned on the thread) can really do. The one thing you won't find in EAR amps is remote control.

AFAIK all are transformer-based designs of course. They won't win over the OTL fans nor make it into Fox's 'Good Life' ecoclub.


I've just seen an EAR amp I didn't know it exist. EAR 516. Looks very old and doesn't have any of the stunning chrome looks of the more recent models.

Anyone knows what is inside?

using an EAR/Yoshino 834T since, and did not look back, very smooth, really powerful, first class 100W integrated amp.


Wow, THAT'S the amp I would LOVE to try with my Shahinian Arcs. A rather controversial design - output transformers for a hybrid, but knowing Tim's reputation it is indeed a really intriguing amp. I have been hunting for a s/h one for over a year now, haven't seen a single one on the used market. I already envy you. Haven't heard a bad word about it, apart from the notion that it does not posess the Paravichini house sound, and instead is absolutely neutral. Is that right? Shall I start saving? Or waiting for your upgrade? :D :D

Wow, THAT'S the amp I would LOVE to try with my Shahinian Arcs. A rather controversial design - output transformers for a hybrid, but knowing Tim's reputation it is indeed a really intriguing amp. I have been hunting for a s/h one for over a year now, haven't seen a single one on the used market. I already envy you. Haven't heard a bad word about it, apart from the notion that it does not posess the Paravichini house sound, and instead is absolutely neutral. Is that right? Shall I start saving? Or waiting for your upgrade? :D :D

Yes, I can call it neutral (if neutrality is really existing), it has bit drier sound than the V20, which is a bit euphonic for me. It could drive really well your Shaninian. I drove several ProAcs (from Response One SC to Response 4), tried with an old Quad, an Avantgarde Trio and some others as well, and for my big suprise, I could not here any signature of the amp which went through the different speakers and systems. It is not very much sensitive on the speaker cables, however liked my Manas a lot. Let me know if you need more info.

Let me know if you need more info.

What tubes does it use and how many? I guess it is similar to 834/864 preamps

What tubes does it use and how many? I guess it is similar to 834/864 preamps

To be honest I have never checked this.

Peter,

Did you get/dem anything?

Martin

Kuma
What pre amp do you use with your Jota monos. I am going to hear some Art Audio valves next month.
Regards
Flyfisher

What Art's are you going to listen to FF? I got shot of my LV's and now have the Emotion Sigs. The Carissa sounds great through them. Check Audiogon if you like the Art Audio's as there are some unbelievable deals there just now. Cheers.

Hi Euan
I am going to hear a friend's Emotion Sigs. I take it that they are an efficient speaker and hence work well with low powered valve amps.

I am not sure which of the Art Audio amps Kevin has in and also what is in his trade in stock.
I have to listen to the differences between SET and push pull amps.

Regards
Flyfisher

Hi Euan
I am going to hear a friend's Emotion Sigs. I take it that they are an efficient speaker and hence work well with low powered valve amps.



FF,

They are indeed. I've had them sound superb driven by a little Nait 2!

With the Berning, they are awesome in terms of sheer musical enjoyment.

Enjoy your demo.

Steve

PMR,

why don't you give Graham Tricker a call at GT Audio on 01895 833099? He has just had a customer bring in his kit - just got married; she who must be obeyed doesn't like his Avantgarde Uno based system. Hence he's selling his stuff, including one of GT's TRON 300B power amps. These are seriously nice amps, every bit as good as Shindo etc.

Charlie

Hi Euan
I am going to hear a friend's Emotion Sigs. I take it that they are an efficient speaker and hence work well with low powered valve amps.



I think they were designed with 300B's in mind. They work great with my 16w SET Carissa.

Enjoy.

Audiopax 88s

Audiopax 88s


Seconded, but don't tell everyone! ;O)

Kuma
What pre amp do you use with your Jota monos. I am going to hear some Art Audio valves next month.
Regards

Hi FF,

I found a NAC552 ( or any other Naim preamps ) to work very well with jotas and other AA amps. ( much better than the usual US suspects: ARC, CJ, VTL, Cary and even AA's own preamp.
a Nagra PLL & Brinkmann Marconi were a disaster!

Enter a Naim preamp and everything pretty much locked in for me.
FWIW, I used a Krell kps25s' preamp prior and whilst not the fastest thing, I prefer it over the preamps mentioned above.
Generally, I prefer my Jotas with a preamp with a lowish ( less than 100 ohms ) output impedance.

Are you listening just out of your curiosity?

A newer 500 is hard to beat albeit it is not *quite* valve.
You ought to try the AA's Adagio monos.

Love those and I know they can drive the Briks as well, but I am afraid of their extreme high voltage. :x ( you can call me chicken~! )

PMR,

why don't you give Graham Tricker a call at GT Audio on 01895 833099? He has just had a customer bring in his kit - just got married; she who must be obeyed doesn't like his Avantgarde Uno based system. Hence he's selling his stuff, including one of GT's TRON 300B power amps. These are seriously nice amps, every bit as good as Shindo etc.

Charlie

Hi Charlie

Blimey, a lot has happened in the last year. I'm a proud Berning owner.

Peter

Peter,

What do you think of it?

Peter,

What do you think of it?

Well, I think it is an interesting design and very transparent, best of many worlds.

I would love to hear the amp on something more sensitive/transparent than the Art Signatures at 90.5db. I think it needs 92db to really strut-its-stuff on its most accurate negative feedback setting. It has a lot to give!

In that case, I'm sure you'd like to hear the active TAD/JBL Berning ZH270 setup I heard recently. Quite stunning!

I'm very happy with mine, even with humble ProAc 1SCs it souds great.

In that case, I'm sure you'd like to hear the active TAD/JBL Berning ZH270 setup I heard recently. Quite stunning!

I'm very happy with mine, even with humble ProAc 1SCs it souds great.

Oh, you mentioned the word active.

We go through many paradigm changes on the road to understanding HIFI, and even to give an opinion, but nothing quite prepared me for the stunning sound of the active Overkill Audio system.

We are talking their Angel speakers powered by homemade silver cable/Butler Audio 5-channel amp (another non CE/ROHS product at a fantastic price) with a cheap Pioneer CD player into a DEQX processor. You could build this system for about £6000. They charge £25,000 for a no hassle (I am a consumer) build, plus their magnificent use of the Manger drive unit, which I think would be very difficult and rather stressful to copy.

The question is can I be bothered to build one, or should I just buy the speakers?

In a word, the system makes everything else sound boxed in and broken.

TO ENJOY THE MUSIC (as your in box is full)

I have been searching the forums regarding the Shindo pre amps and I am thinking of purchasing either Aurieges or Morbrison. But I have been told that Shindo have got a bit of a reputation for being un reliable, and that quite a few people say this, however I havnt seen anything on the forums. I just wondered how you feel as you own Shindo, and I believe they are quite popular in France.
Malcolm

Malc,

I don't think Enjoy the music will read your message. Try on Hifi Wigwam, he's sometimes there these days, or send him a message via ebay.

As a long-term Shindo owner, may I say that I'm astonished to hear that Shindo are supposed to have a reputation for unreliability. AFAIA Shindo stuff is very, very reliable. My Shindo stuff never went wrong in more than 15 years of ownership. Come to think of it, I only ever needed to replace one tube, an EF80 regulator tube in my ex-Monbrison.

Well thats good to hear as I have the Aurieges Pre-Amplifier on order. Think sometimes someone drops unlucky and a lot of conclusions are jumped to, such is life.From all I have read about them I havnt seen a bad word , then if you do your homework on these, you must not tube roll, care must be taken with interconnect lenth to amps etc.and you never know what people get up to thus causing damage anyway.