I've had the 400+ for a couple of years - currently into bi amped Densens and Neat Elites. I think I am concluding (or just giving in) that often it it is just too bright/edgy for me. I have some Mogami I/C's on the way to see if they can help but if that fails I am toying with swapping it out for a Naim CD5X which was the only system that compared for me.

I've tried different cabling - BRhodium helped quite a bit but the Mogami speaker cable I now use is really good but shows up CDP to be somewhat dry and bright. I like the amps and speakers so really want to focus on CDP (plus had the problem with Spendors in the rig).

Has anyone done a direct comparison of the two? If so how bright is the Naim compared to Densen?

Haven't compared the 400+ with CD5X, but you have a very real option of upgrading your 'Plus' to an 'XS' by paying the difference in price (I believe this offer still stands with Densen). In doing so, I have every confidence that the Densen will be a far better CDP. For context, a B-400XS bettered and thence replaced my Naim CDS2. There is nothing dry or bright about the XS. What are you using to terminate your Mogami cables?

James

I would go with the Naim. Densen CDPs are nothing special, IME.

Each to their own, eh, Bub.

Aye.

Hmm

Heheh, I would go with Sony ES.

Naim CDP's are nothing special, IME.

Oops, *ducks for cover*..:D

Best

Jon...:cool: :p

I'd be tempted to trust those who've actually gone to the trouble of comparing Naim and Densen CDPs in their own system.

Sobryma,

Could it be a set up problems with your Elites?

I never found Densen bright.

That was my first thought, Kuma.

I haven't heard the CD5X.

alex, former Naim user now using a Densen CDP into Neat speakers.

I own a cd5x and can thoroughly recommend it.

Doesn't sound the slightest bit bright and is a very good all round player.

As i recently detailed on another thread, last year i demd the B400+ against the CD5X and Rega Jupiter.

Findings inthe dealers room were Densen and Naim very similar with the Rega below both.

But at home i too found the Densen slightly thin sounding and the Naim too thick .
The Rega was just right and way ahead of the other too.

But my system is all Rega so the result could probably be expexted.
Maybe even better results could have been got by changing some other part of my system and keeping either of the other 2 cd players, but as i am otherwise happy with the system there was no need.

Michael.

I have a Naim cd player and plays very well with my Densen amplifier,if this help you

Yes, densen amp tends to emphasize the mid and treble, it can sound a little bright. I'm using a dm-10 with rega apollo and mogami 2803 IC. If you wanna tone down the brightness, go for naim cdp. Ii had the cd5i for a few weeks, it's a good match with my dm-10, gives a warmer tonal balance than the apollo.

the cd5x is said to be darker than 5i.

Funny, my DM-10 was about the least bright sounding amp I've had, short of valves; lush, more like. The CD5X is said to be as dark as ditchwater.

Alex S,

Do not underestimate the power of the dark side!

Thanks for the replies!!!:cool:

My Mogami has turned up (2497 imported from Japan and I them terminated by Missing Link), it has helped a quite a bit but initial impressions are it has tended to clamp down on dymamics without loosing the edge on (maybe) brighter recordings.....there is always a price to pay. I'll let them run in and see no doubt I may change my mind.:)

I had thought about going the XS route but this puts a chunk more notes into the equation. Also the fact I have an ongoing 75lurve/25hate relationship with the 400+ makes me wary. I did demo an XS with the 400+ it was better but not sufficient to tempt me then admittedly on a shortish demo.

I love the Neat's to death but maybe the mid forward Densen and the mid forward Neat's aggravate each other - that said I had at times a similar issue with Spendors that I ended up feeling were a bit dull dull dull. One issue I now bi-amp and possibly that is showing up the 400+ (I've tried swapping leads in case of a problem with the amps no difference).

I may try a CD5X not sure I want warm sound though as it conjures up pipe and slippers visions, or maybe a Rega.

Yes, densen amp tends to emphasize the mid and treble, it can sound a little bright. I'm using a dm-10 with rega apollo and mogami 2803 IC. If you wanna tone down the brightness, go for naim cdp. Ii had the cd5i for a few weeks, it's a good match with my dm-10, gives a warmer tonal balance than the apollo.
Densen amps are wide bandwidth designs, unlike Naim amps. If your sources and playback equipment are tonally flawed, it would be more obvious with Densen amps. That said, I find my Densen electronics far FAR more tonally neutral than my previous all olive Naim set-up. Obviously YMMV etc etc.

James

Having heard the B400XS in Alex S's system a coupe of times, it is most definitely NOT bright. If anything, the top end could be said to err on the side of caution.

Sobryma, I'm afraid your posts don't add up. You are in a very real danger of spending money without getting significant gains. I'm pretty sure the cause of the brightness is not where you think it is. The most likely culprit is the speaker and/or the speaker/room interaction. Have you tried tightening the screws on the tweeter? Have you tried damping the first reflection points?

Is the room carpeted, or hard-floored (wood/tile) ? Are there many windows ? What about soft furnishings ? If you stand in the middle of the room and clap your hands does it ring or is it well damped.

Where are the speakers placed in relation to rear and side walls ?

The answers to these questions will say whether the speaker-room interaction is the likely culprit or not.

Having heard the B400XS in Alex S's system a coupe of times, it is most definitely NOT bright. If anything, the top end could be said to err on the side of caution.

Sobryma, I'm afraid your posts don't add up. You are in a very real danger of spending money without getting significant gains. I'm pretty sure the cause of the brightness is not where you think it is. The most likely culprit is the speaker and/or the speaker/room interaction. Have you tried tightening the screws on the tweeter? Have you tried damping the first reflection points?

Good point re: spending without tangible gains. TBH I only demo'd the 400XS briefly so that may be a route certainly to upgrade but not sure if I want to make gains just close "issue". Room or speaker interaction is a v. good point and not one I've even thought of......not sure about playing with Neats as there are no visible screws. Their tweeter is a sort of ribbon like type thing.

Also "bright" might be my own definition - I had a similar issue with a Marantz KI system a few years back.....admittedly didn't end up changing the CDP but the speakers. Way back when I demo'd this system I found Cyrus and Linn a tad bright or dry also.

Is the room carpeted, or hard-floored (wood/tile) ? Are there many windows ? What about soft furnishings ? If you stand in the middle of the room and clap your hands does it ring or is it well damped.

Where are the speakers placed in relation to rear and side walls ?

The answers to these questions will say whether the speaker-room interaction is the likely culprit or not.

Carrying on from above. The floor is concrete with ceramic tiles, with a large window area, oblong but with opening (i.e. no wall) to left side of system. The speakers are about a metre in from the back and close to the side wall/opening. They are also toe'd in and with RDC cones rather than spikes.

There's no echo or ring if you clap in the middle of the room - theres a few chairs, rug, dinning table etc. in the room.

Maybe I should try moving the speakers that might help!!!!!:o

Here's a possible el-cheapo solution:

If you can access the Neats' crossovers, see what value the series resistor in the tweeter circuit is, and increase it slightly, eg if it was, say, 3.3 ohms, try a 4.7 and /or a 5.6.

Keep it simple for now - experiment with speaker positioning and take the cones away for a bit.

Carrying on from above. The floor is concrete with ceramic tiles, with a large window area, oblong but with opening (i.e. no wall) to left side of system. The speakers are about a metre in from the back and close to the side wall/opening. They are also toe'd in and with RDC cones rather than spikes.

There's no echo or ring if you clap in the middle of the room - theres a few chairs, rug, dinning table etc. in the room.

Maybe I should try moving the speakers that might help!!!!!:o

Try clapping your hands where the speakers are, and where you listen to music.

Sobryma,

How far is your listening distance and are tweeters height same as your ear height?

The reason I asked is that when I had a pair of Elites, I've noticed the treble dispersion changed greately depending on how high/low I sat from the listening spot.

Why toe-in?

Sometimes, it makes the trebles sound sharper.

Kuma, why toe in is a damn good question as NOT toein' them in does seem to help a bit. The listening point is about 3m back and may be slightly higher than the tweeters. I might buy a couple of chopping boards to try out under the Neat's.

Markus, clapping around the room seems ok as far as I can tell - although maybe well damped is too strong.

I will try a bit more experimentation as it is an 'odd' room.

You toe in because it reduces side wall reflections (because the walls become more off-axis to the speaker drivers therefore they will receive less decibels of sound to bounce back at you).

A

toe-in is for round earthers. in the olden days, tony would have banned you.

vuk.

hi Sobryma
i think you mite find your problem mite be here(The floor is concrete with ceramic tiles) as a tiler for over 20 year i have found a lot of listening rooms become brighter with ceramic tiles and worse with Porcelain tile.
as a owner of a Densen DM20/30 + 400xs and a B200+320+ naim cd2 i wouldn't say the 400XS isn't any bighter but pulls out more detail from CD's so are you hearing more and thinking it is just bighter. you could try putting a rug in front of both speakers and seeing if that helps.

FWIW, moving *to* Naim because the sound you have is too bright seems daft to me. In the Space Of What Is Out There, Naim are still on the lean end, IMHO.

Consider Bryston (higher price), Rotel (lower price), or Linn. Odds are if you go Naim in your situation you will be back here with the same issue.

- GregB

Rusty -

In my experience, the crossover point is too high for tweeter attenuation to work. I will tame a tweeter during the run-in period with a new speaker, when the tweeter is harsh, but after that no attenuation should be necessary. The problem with a thin-sounding system is 250hz and below; the crossover point in 2-way speakers is usually at 2500hz or higher, no where close to what would be helpful to cure a thin-sounding system.

- GregB

Brightness is not usually an issue of tonal balance skewed towards the higher frequencies but distortion of those frequencies. It is worth finding out what is causing the top end to be reproduced so inaccurately. My guess it has something to do with interconnects or speaker cables - the former being more likely.

The house sound from Densen is warm and lush (with a kick) rather than thin and bright, but Densen amps tend to be fussy and revealing of what they may be used with.

I've been using a Naim CDX with my B200/300(XS) for the last 5 years. It is a combination that works well but I'd like to try a B400XS in place of the CDX at some stage.

Thanks everyone, yep if I try alternative cdp's or maybe even a DAC there is plenty of choice and I wouldn't rule out a 400XS - I'm sure I've read somewhere in the past that it can calm the 400+ bite. The only reason I was keen on Naim is it was the only other system I heard a couple of years back that had the right flavour for me.

The 400+ can be awesome 75% of the time - just on occasion it is a step too far. Not just in the current room or with the Neats alone - and probably a problem from early on - that is what makes me think it is source issue.

I have been down the cabling route a few times to try to manage it - and Mogami does seem v. compatible but I think ultimately I either live it being a bit too much sometimes or look at alternatives..... trouble is much of the time it can be :-)

Given that it may just be a room thing I'll try to home audition any changes - cabling or otherwise......anyway I'm off on holiday tomorrow if it rains a lot I will try to sneak into a dealers:)

Carrying on from above. The floor is concrete with ceramic tiles, with a large window area, oblong but with opening (i.e. no wall) to left side of system. The speakers are about a metre in from the back and close to the side wall/opening. They are also toe'd in and with RDC cones rather than spikes.

There's no echo or ring if you clap in the middle of the room - theres a few chairs, rug, dinning table etc. in the room.

Maybe I should try moving the speakers that might help!!!!!:o

I think the problem is the room. Ceramic tiles and a large window will accentuate higher frequencies and make the sound much more splashy.

I hate carpet and soft furnishing as a rule (dirt magnets), but I know that listening room with carpet sounds much better. A rug might be a compromise, particularly at the reflection point (between you and the speakers). Rugs on the walls help a lot also.

Putting the speakers closer to the back wall may help a little, but could muddy the bass and kill any imaging.

Is there any chance the room is too big for the speakers also ?

Sorry, you have to buy a new house .... or a few rugs.

Returned from exotic vacation in Scotland with the cunning plan to put back in the BR S300 speaker cable (or perhaps sell the house without anyone noticing) - simple as there hadn't been a problem with it in....only thing is of course everything then got a quite a bit more woooollllly and lost all focus. Like the idea of new house however rug has proved more practical and Mrs Sobryma produced one from the garage as if by some great psychic hi fi link.

Next stage in the sobry-mad-ness is this week putting in a VDH Integration I/C from CDP to Pre.....which seems to help a hell of a lot - a lot calmer - and appears to be a lot more detailed (placebo effect maybe) in fact sufficiently 'better' that I'm considering it for pre-power-power as well. Hopefully this will mean I keep the 2477 speaker cable because it is the best bit of wire I've come across in a open window styleee. Only wish I imported it from Japan could have been cheaper.

So thusfar Steven Toy wins the House of Sobryma award for psychiatric assistance.

If anything, the CD5x (at least with Naim equipment) is more 'warm' sounding to me. Of course it all depends on your setup.