Well I can confirm that I've been RKR'd & am delighted with the outcome.

I now have a dedicated Memera consumer unit with 4 x 10mm Spurs. Each piece of equipment is hard wired via one of Roy's "Beasts".

The result is absolutely stunning. Open, live sound. Fantastic value-for-money upgrade. An absolute No-Brainer.

Thank you Roy, you are a true Gent! :D

Well I can confirm that I've been RKR'd & am delighted with the outcome.

I now have a dedicated Memera consumer unit with 4 x 10mm Spurs. Each piece of equipment is hard wired via one of Roy's "Beasts".

The result is absolutely stunning. Open, live sound. Fantastic value-for-money upgrade. An absolute No-Brainer.

Thank you Roy, you are a true Gent! :D

I can believe that, I have Roy's 'Beasts' on all my gear now, awsome!
Just waiting to go the whole hog with the dedicated mains. Roy certaintly knoes his stuff!

I can believe that, I have Roy's 'Beasts' on all my gear now, awsome!
Just waiting to go the whole hog with the dedicated mains.


300 quid for the consumer unit & cable. Just do it!

I've got the cable and consumer unit etc already, it's taking up the floor and all the upheaval that's holding me back. Waiting untill I redecorate the lounge before starting. Have you done all the other upgrades that Roy would have suggested?

I did mine a few weeks ago, within three days I was getting another 30/40% more music. Since then it just gets better and better.

I fully agree with the views expressed above.
I installed my Memera with 9 x 10mm spurs 3 years ago, exactly to the RKR specifications, and everything was just SO much better. The first months burn-in was a roller coaster ride, but then it started to settle down and just got better as the weeks rolled by.

I would never, ever go back to the 6mm single spur which in my opinion was totally inferior, and every other person who subsequently has heard my system is in total agreement.
I've been so impressed with this RKR Mains, that I will be having another RKR dedicated Memera installation for my plasma TV and AV sound system.

Thanks Roy.

A Musician

Yes, I had the full set up as well, although using 6mm spurs.

I'll be doing it all over again when I move this year - 10mm spurs etc.

As you say a 'no brainer' upgrade for the cost involved.

I'm on the Roy and his disciples hate list for saying this but for me its swings and roundabouts: simplistically, RKR treatment = more slam, less flow (and a potential conflagration if you go the whole hog). I'm presuming it suits a Naim system better than mine, although, having heard quite a few RKR'd Naim systems, I was less thrilled than their owners.

Ok

I have a consumer unit (new one) installed about 3 metres away from my hifi - plan was to use one of the dedicated spurs on that to create a ring for hifi only (we are being rewired anyway so cost is marginal).

are you guys saying a memera with seperate tails will make a big difference? and are you all using systems with a naim box of some kind in the chain?

darren

I'm on the Roy and his disciples hate list for saying this but for me its swings and roundabouts: simplistically, RKR treatment = more slam, less flow (and a potential conflagration if you go the whole hog). I'm presuming it suits a Naim system better than mine, although, having heard quite a few RKR'd Naim systems, I was less thrilled than their owners.


Only works for Naim - boll**ks! I've had Naim and now own an active AVONDALE system and the RKR Mains definitely works on both.

Alex S? I wonder if this the same Alex S I've heard about who was unable to notice when his speakers were wired reversed.
If that is the case then excuse me if I ignore his advice and observations.

A Musician

hey guys, where can you get a memera consumer unit with rcd main (required by new regs)? i have inquired everywhere and have been told only for industrial, not domestic installations.

also, what is so special about memera that makes it suitable for our naim hifi? anyone know?

enjoy
ken

Try Denmans they stock MEM

Ah, a Roy disciple. 'Suits better' isn't 'only works'. I was able to spot it hence asked Roy for a CD to confirm it before he went off on his JA hissy fit. Anyway, its far less obvious than speakers out of phase; and with Briks it really wouldn't matter either way. Nonetheless, I'm thrilled to have entered Roy's somewhat perverse folklore - has he recovered, by the way? Ken, Roy spent 90000 hours testing 900 different CUs and the Memera was a 'no brainer'.

Roy is a gentleman and if you e-mail him I'm sure he will send you full details of his research.
In my case I got his suggestions by e-mail but in a 160 year old house with 4 fuse boxes it was easier to just take a dedicated spur using 10mm cable! The sound was much improved and was immediately noticable. Perhaps a Memera box etc gives even better results but I was very satisfied for less than £30!!

Simon F

I cannot for the life of me see what difference the consumer unit makes.

regards

I cannot for the life of me see what difference the consumer unit makes.

Email RKR and see what a difference it makes to your spam filters.

Roy spent 90000 hours testing 900 different CUs and the Memera was a 'no brainer'.

For the billionth time, will you please not exaggerate. ;)

Actually, if I recall correctly, he does claim to have "compared" about 10 different brands of consumer unit so, allowing for the 6 week "burn in" time which is allegedly required, this does equate to more than 10000 hours. What a way to spend your life ......

How it's possible to remember the original "sound" when 6 weeks have elapsed is a mystery to me. But perhaps I have a short-term memory problem ?

Email RKR and see what a difference it makes to your spam filters.

You can be sure that the incoming spam will be squeaky clean though.

Not if your megabytes of word files contain a macro virus you can't.

I cannot for the life of me see what difference the consumer unit makes.

regards
Then you'll never experience the difference! :D

Regards,

Andy

Not if your megabytes of word files contain a macro virus you can't.

Err - my comment was intended to be a play on words re Roy's mains cleaning theories .....

hey guys, where can you get a memera consumer unit with rcd main (required by new regs)? i have inquired everywhere and have been told only for industrial, not domestic installations.

also, what is so special about memera that makes it suitable for our naim hifi? anyone know?

enjoy
ken

Edmundsons, Newey & Aire, City Electrical all stock them. I had to buy :

Memera AD6 Consumer Unit
6 x MBH 132 (32amps)
6 x Field Fit MR30 RCD Pods (they will offer an all-in-one alternative, but Roy reckons the separate items are worth the extra couple of quid)
Enough 10mm twin & earth for the spurs
Oval Junction Boxes

The whole lot came to just under £300


For those who don’t know, Roy is an absolute gent. He’s spent a lot of time researching this stuff & likes to pass his knowledge on for no financial gain. He has his knockers, but then they tend to be the type of people who try to sell rip-off “Mains Conditioners” or £400 blocks consisting of £20 worth of RS catalogue components.

Not if your megabytes of word files contain a macro virus you can't.


Name of the virus if you recall, Mr. Fox?

mildly concerned with his heuristics engine;-)

Dave they never got that far -- as soon as I saw uncompressed and, frankly, obese Word files arriving I deleted them. That's the point at which I lose interest. Accepting Word documents from an unknown source is just too risky -- let alone a from a self-confessed complete nutcase fruit-loop like RKR.

contempt prior to investigation is silly at best.

I have had dedicated mains for my hi-fi installed three times now in different places - it makes all the difference.

An odd example but here goes.

In my old house I had a NAIM 82 with twin hi-cap, NAIM 180, CDi and briks on 4 separate 6mm spurs with the memera. There was a track that I was extremely familiar with - 30 secs into the track you could hear a telephone ringing which was a revelation at the time because I had never heard it before.

In my present house where I only have one 6mm ring main on with the same system - I could not hear the phone ringing!!

I have since upgraded to AVONDALE - GRAD 1 , MONO-BLOCKS M130s and I can hear the phone ringing again.

If my wife will let Roy rip up my floor boards and put in some additional spurs maybe I will hear the actual telephone conversation with the AVONDALE :D

I found the same - last year we had builders knocking the house about so that was a great opportunity to put in a dedicated consumer unit. When I was eventually able to set up the system again I did so first on the old consumer unit. Left the system running for a month or so. I then set the system up again but on the new consumer unit. A revelation - it was the equivalent of swapping my old 102 for the 82. It's a great value upgrade.

Only works for Naim - boll**ks! I've had Naim and now own an active AVONDALE system and the RKR Mains definitely works on both.

Alex S? I wonder if this the same Alex S I've heard about who was unable to notice when his speakers were wired reversed.
If that is the case then excuse me if I ignore his advice and observations.

A Musician

The very same.

Since the court case and his, frankly, unexpected aquittal, he's been living alone in an industrial unit in Rochester relying upon charity handouts from the local MOT station and spreading malicious rumours about many of the fine members of this forum.

Fox,
I can print the files into a pdf if you'd like to see how 'nutty' the details are.

I have a full RKR system and it did improve the system quite a bit, I am not sure by how many % it improved it by though ;)
Mine is actually wired up with 16mm cable and not 10mm cable from each RCD to piece of kit. It was a bit of a squeeze into each plug ;) A first for an RKR system I was told by the man himself. I still need to do my dedicated earth spike outside

A lot of the file sizes are due to large pictures within the documents... a pdf would get round this and your security issues and maybe something Roy may want to consider to get his message to a wider audience who are spam aware and less trusting.

Fox,
I can print the files into a pdf if you'd like to see how 'nutty' the details are.

I have a full RKR system and it did improve the system quite a bit, I am not sure by how many % it improved it by though ;)

A lot of the file sizes are due to large pictures within the documents...

Is Fox a good mate of your, jonno? I ask because I suspect you'd just be wasting your time ... he doesn't seem to be someone who takes a punt (and that's what you have to do, with mains upgrades IMO, because they sound so flakey! :) ).

I am a believer in "the Gospel according to Roy" and I'm very glad I took the punt! :D

Regards,

Andy

Fox,
I can print the files into a pdf if you'd like to see how 'nutty' the details are....Roy may want to consider to get his message to a wider audience who are spam aware and less trusting.

Thanks but its not really needed. I read and implemented some of Ben Duncan's mains article suggestions in the late Cretaceous.

I suggest a web site to be honest. There are plenty of Word>HTML converters out there.

he [fox] doesn't seem to be someone who takes a punt (and that's what you have to do, with mains upgrades IMO, because they sound so flakey!

See above: Job done. Forgot what it brought to the party and why I bothered... Moved on.

I'm about to get a new consumer unit, and am intent on getting a Memera and a dedicated spur for the hi-fi, which is about 6 metres from the CU. Sadly, though, I have solid floors (1960's house, parquet on concrete), so was going to settle for a single 6mm spur: I need 14 power cables so can't possibly have individual spurs for each bit of kit.

Any advice (and non-RKR fans can bog off at this point)?

John,
I'm definitely no expert but just run one 10mm cable from the consumer unit to near your hifi. Terminate with a double unswitched good quality socket and then plug in using a hydra, good mains block eg Musicworks or a multi-plug like what you can get from Maplins. Job done!

Simon F

I'm about to get a new consumer unit, and am intent on getting a Memera and a dedicated spur for the hi-fi, which is about 6 metres from the CU. Sadly, though, I have solid floors (1960's house, parquet on concrete), so was going to settle for a single 6mm spur: I need 14 power cables so can't possibly have individual spurs for each bit of kit.

Any advice (and non-RKR fans can bog off at this point)?


Hi JB,

I too have a house with a concrete slab ... but my mains circuits run in the hollow walls, not the slab. Are you sure you can't run more than 1 dedicated spur from your CV to your system?

As Simon has said, if you can only have 1 spur, then make it 10mm^2, not just pissy little 6mm^2!! :D If you can run more circuits then, yes, 14 would probably be somewhat of a problem to install but, say, 3 might be feasible? One for your analogue sources, one for any digital sources - including a Lingo, if you have one - and the third for power amps.

BTW, to make your "and non-RKR fans can bog off ..." comment more understandable to us PFM posters in the non-UK parts of the world, I suggest "and non-RKR fans can piss off " would've been more apt!!?? :D

Regards,

Andy

Hi JB,

I too have a house with a concrete slab ... but my mains circuits run in the hollow walls, not the slab. Are you sure you can't run more than 1 dedicated spur from your CV to your system?

As Simon has said, if you can only have 1 spur, then make it 10mm^2, not just pissy little 6mm^2!! :D If you can run more circuits then, yes, 14 would probably be somewhat of a problem to install but, say, 3 might be feasible? One for your analogue sources, one for any digital sources - including a Lingo, if you have one - and the third for power amps.

BTW, to make your "and non-RKR fans can bog off ..." comment more understandable to us PFM posters in the non-UK parts of the world, I suggest "and non-RKR fans can piss off " would've been more apt!!?? :D

Regards,

Andy

Thanks, Andy. (I used 'bog' instead of 'piss', so Tony wouldn't delete my post! "One must have one's standards... ", as my ex-wife used to say.)

Accepting Word documents from an unknown source is just too risky



Oh come one, I'm sure you've taken greater risks ;)

That sounds intriguing!

Mike

I would take 6mm over 10mm anyday. (unless you run Krells :D )

Oh come one, I'm sure you've taken greater risks ;)

You going all weird agin?

Jonny Blue,

Run 3 cables all the way from a henley block before the CU and put an new CU behind the HIFI go the whole hog. If the floor is coming up you may as well make it worth the effort...

If the CU had the maximum I am sure it could take 14 piece of kit. If each piece of kit has an RCD then you can remove the f...

I suggest you speak to Roy to find out what the best option is for your circumstance.

My HIFI consumer unit does not go through the main CU. No plugs, switches or sockets just an RCBO for each piece of equipment 10mm flex with an IEC on each end.

You going all weird agin?


Me? Weird? Again?? ;) What do you mean?

Well you are being rather cryptic.

Mike

Jonny Blue,

Run 3 cables all the way from a henley block before the CU and put an new CU behind the HIFI go the whole hog. If the floor is coming up you may as well make it worth the effort...

If the CU had the maximum I am sure it could take 14 piece of kit. If each piece of kit has an RCD then you can remove the f...

I suggest you speak to Roy to find out what the best option is for your circumstance.

My HIFI consumer unit does not go through the main CU. No plugs, switches or sockets just an RCD for each piece of equipment 10mm flex with an IEC on each end.


Hmm, interesting idea. So you're suggesting a completely separate CU for the hi fi?

By the way, I'm not having the floor up: we need a new CU (to cover the effing great range cooker my missus has had installed, which needs 10mm cable, but the CU is in the kitchen, i.e., not far to go).

I want to get a separate spur(s) put in for the hi fi, but it's going to have to be up, over and down (i.e., running through the ceiling and walls). I don't think I can persuade my sparks to work with 10mm all the way to the front room...

...but not 14x 10mm all the way from it to the hifi from the kitchen...

I mean put the CU literally behind the HiFi ! ...and 14 lengths of flex from this to each piece of kit. Each flex needs to be the same length ~1.5metres...

I did have a picture but there is only three cables for your electrician to lay.

If you are interested in getting the best, speak to Roy, if you aren't then listen to others on here or do whatever the visual compromise is and always wonder.

If each piece of kit has an RCD then you can remove the f...
No you can't.

Paul

[QUOTE=jonnoshore;417966]...but not 14x 10mm all the way from it to the hifi from the kitchen...

I mean put the CU literally behind the HiFi ! ...and 14 lengths of flex from this to each piece of kit. Each flex needs to be the same length ~1.5metres.../QUOTE]


Oooooooooooooooh!:o

No you can't.

Paul

Paul,
I can do what ever I want to ;) each piece of my equipment has it's own dedicated RCD/MCBO or whatever they are.. they are faster than the case fuses so if I was so inclined I could remove the case fuse, I haven't. There are also two points of isolation for each piece of kit so I don't see what the issue is. I do not have any plug 13 amp fuses in line with any of my equipment as there are no plugs.

You ought to know the difference between an RCD and an MCB if you're going to be advocating unsafe practices in public....

If your MCBs are 3 or 6 amp and your wiring is 'hard' all the way to the IEC then I suppose you can remove the case fuse. Otherwise you're tempting fate.

It all seems a bit fetishistic turd polishing to me.

Paul

Each one is a combined RCBO which I am told is as safe as you can get from a man that knows, if there is a30mA difference betweem live/neutral these things trip. Remember Europe do not have plug fuses. All my case fuses are still in place.

The shinnier the turds are the better ;) I have not put them in rubber though.

One thing I have discovered with insurance companies is they like things nice, and in line with the law.

if there is a 30mA difference betweem live/neutral these things trip.
That's not a fuse and will happily deposit thousands of kilowatts into your detonator without tripping.
Remember Europe do not have plug fuses.
But they have fuses on each spur. Which it appears you may not.
All my case fuses are still in place.
Not completely daft then...

Paul

I mean put the CU literally behind the HiFi ! ...and 14 lengths of flex from this to each piece of kit. Each flex needs to be the same length ~1.5metres...

Hold on a sec. I thought established (according to TonyL anyway) HiFi practice was to not have the socket right near the HiFi but a fookin great consumer stuffed with MCBs and an RCD unit behind it is OK??!?!

You're taking the piss aren't you?

Unfortunately in my current abode I'm unable to do anything 'fancy' with the mains, but for the guys here that have installed this RKR set-up, if you're worried about safety there's a simple solution. When installing the RKR set-up, keep one double (or single) wall socket near the hi-fi system 'ordinary' -- by this I mean that it's just connected to the normal household mains supply.

Then buy the cheapest approved mains block you can find and plug it into the wall socket, retain the original mains leads that came with the equipment, and plug these into the mains block. After listening to your system powered RKR-style, if leaving the house, going to bed, or whatever, simply unplug Roy's 'beasts' from the equipment's IEC sockets and replace them with the original equipment leads connected to the household mains supply. This should take all of 60 seconds. When listening again, simply reverse the process.

You now have the best of both worlds: safety and performance -- and you choose when each is applicable. If something should happen when listening to music with the system powered RKR-style then at least you'll be in the room and hopefully in a position to do something about it!

Mike

What a simple solution, fellow Mike. Just one problem (in my eyes at least). Each time you change cable, you power down the equipment (and with Naim at least), in sequence with the on/off buttons, allowiing full capacitor discharge and replenishment. Bit more than 60 seconds, I'd say, and hardly good practice for the longevity and stability of the kit. I've 'lived dangerously', according to some, for many years, as have others I know, without incident. Lucky? Maybe, but what a world of difference in sonic quality! Long live RKR, an altruistically evangelical audiophile if ever there was one!

Long live RKR, an altruistically evangelical audiophile if ever there was one!


Amen to that! :)

Regards,

Andy

What a simple solution, fellow Mike. Just one problem (in my eyes at least). Each time you change cable, you power down the equipment (and with Naim at least), in sequence with the on/off buttons, allowiing full capacitor discharge and replenishment. Bit more than 60 seconds, I'd say, and hardly good practice for the longevity and stability of the kit.


I know where you're coming from, Mike, as Naim gear is a bit more 'precious' in that sense. With most other gear I think it would be less of an issue. Also, I'm sure some talented chap could make up a switch that flipped you from 'RKR mode' to the set-up I've mentioned above in a nanosecond. Surely someone must have thought of this already?

Mike

I cannot for the life of me see what difference the consumer unit makes.

regards


Sure,,the idea it makes a difference to the SOUND unless you "see" sound"

Seriously...what you`re saying is "I don`t believe..."

Well....do the tests......

laurie

Surely the correct solution is equipment that delivers full performance for a wide range of mains qualities - if Naim kit is so neurotic, this must be viewed as an engineering fault.

Naim owners may well be neurotic, Piglet's Dad, but Naim equioment, at least the olive series back, is predictable and reliable. A few weeks ago, I had to fish down an old Cyrus 1 amp from its 3 years in the loft and connect it to my large Proacs with my usual 4 sources connected. I can't believe a little old amp which hadn't been used for yonks could possibly sound so good. Naim the only kit to benefit from decent mains? I doubt that very much.

I have heard some super-duper RKR-mainsed-up systems, and did not share the owners' enthusiasm.

Naim the only kit to benefit from decent mains? I doubt that very much.

Decent mains the only thing to not be reinforced by placebo response and a desire to believe there is difference because you expect one? I doubt that very much.

I have heard some super-duper RKR-mainsed-up systems, and did not share the owners' enthusiasm.

Which systems did you hear? Would be worth knowing whether they were correctly implemented systems, as per RKR or 'slightly' modified by electricians that say it won't make 'any' difference.

I have the man himself here today and I now have a dedicated earth rod ~2m from my consumer unit... Quite a difference :) I'm happy...

.... Would be worth knowing whether they were correctly implemented systems, as per RKR or 'slightly' modified by electricians that say it won't make 'any' difference.
Ah yes. The magic spell must be recited word perfect otherwise the magic doesn't work.

RKR very kindly sent me his copious documents on mains supply improvements. I was hoping to read some good technical reasons why certain configurations sound better than others, however most of the notes seem to be based on the bigger/more is better philosophy.

My own rather modest experiments with mains components over the years has lead me to believe that the most important aspect is the way the equipment is earthed and not the supply impedance.

Many years ago and long before I had heard of PFM and Hydras etc. I built myself a junction box based mains distribution system based on star earthing and minimum plug/socket interfaces. I was impressed by the clarity and dynamics this approach brought to the sound and it took me a long time to realize that the apparent clarity was at the expense of coherence and musicality. Logic tells me the Hydra approach should be good, but each time I try it, after the initial wow factor I always go back to the bog standard 2 standard mains leads plugged into a double unswitched socket (I now have only 2 mains powered pieces of kit, an SB+ and a power amp).

I agree with RKR that a separate earth spike and a separate spur should bring worthwhile improvements, unfortunately concrete floors (made out of NASA/Fort Knox indestructible material so it seems) have prevented me from using these.

I have heard some super-duper RKR-mainsed-up systems, and did not share the owners' enthusiasm.


Surely the “owner’s enthusiasm” is all that matters. He’s the one that has to listen to it every day.

I’m extremely pleased with the result & for 300 quid, it represents a fantastic value for money.

If we’re all being honest with each other, your objections have nothing to do with the subject, but your personal dislike of RKR. Roy doesn’t make any money from it, so what’s the point of your exercise?

What did Roy do to upset you? Or you Clive? Come one, spit it out!

Yep. He's going weird again

heheh... whatever you say (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Eyl1VOhxhE)

My, this thread has developed nicely since I left it last!

Mike

Sure,,the idea it makes a difference to the SOUND unless you "see" sound"
Seriously...what you`re saying is "I don`t believe..."
Well....do the tests......


Seeing sound, as in a frequency response curve? Good idea.

So of those whom have done this. Lets see before and after room sweeps, plots anything beyond personal apocrypha to show how a HiFi has been transformed. If its as jaw-dropping as everyone says it is, then there will be clear changes in the frequency response of a room plot. What can be measured can be represented.

Or is it, like the vast majority of the nutbar tweaks here all unsubstantiated guff -- based on people's experiences after long periods of silence while you wait for your Spur to be installed, then for the gear to warm up, then for the cable to burn in (several weeks I am told, right?).

I think the acid test was the number of tings. Seem to remember a lot of threads discussing tinginess anyway.


Fwiw I think S-man is right - earthing is very important.


Cheers

Jason

If its as jaw-dropping as everyone says it is, then there will be clear changes in the frequency response of a room plot. What can be measured can be represented.



Hi fox,

Can you explain in what way "the frequency response of a room plot" will change if the improvement resulting from an RKR-style mains upgrade results in more 'aliveness' or more 'snap' ... ie. artefacts associated with the leading edge of transients being delivered more clearly? :confused:

Regards,

Andy

I refer to people who report things like a deeper more solid bass and "sweeter treble" -- this will be reflected in a visible change in measurements.

"More snap" and "aliveness" like more "slam" and "More Boogie" are anthropomorphisms more likely to be the product of fertile imaginations than anything measurable although it should be possible to display any changes that can account for such experiences (more "snap" can be attributed to an elevated midrange EQ -- in which case all RKR is achieving is a very convoluted form of EQ), also I'd like to see an AC waveform of a RKR "approved" mains feed (with and without equipment plugged into it), compared to the waveform of the usual non RKR mains... There are very definite things to look out for here -- lowered noise floor and harmonic distortion most easily measurable in the peaks and troughs of the AC Sine Wave itself.

If people are serious about these claims then back it up with something based on measurements and fact rather than how many "tings" someone experiences.

So, any takers?

I refer to people who report things like a deeper more solid bass and "sweeter treble" -- this will be reflected in a visible change in measurements.

"More snap" and "aliveness" like more "slam" and "More Boogie" are anthropomorphisms more likely to be the product of fertile imaginations than anything measurable although it should be possible to display any changes that can account for such experiences (more "snap" can be attributed to an elevated midrange EQ -- in which case all RKR is achieving is a very convoluted form of EQ), also I'd like to see an AC waveform of a RKR "approved" mains feed (with and without equipment plugged into it), compared to the waveform of the usual non RKR mains... There are very definite things to look out for here -- lowered noise floor and harmonic distortion most easily measurable in the peaks and troughs of the AC Sine Wave itself.

If people are serious about these claims then back it up with something based on measurements and fact rather than how many "tings" someone experiences.

So, any takers?


Not I, sport. IMO, that would be about as pointless as the situation of a Jehova's Witness trying to convince a devout Muslim that s/he will end up in hell unless they "convert". :p

Regards,

Andy

Unfortunately TF, what you are expecting to see in measurements won't show on a frequency response plot; which only shows gain vs frequency as you well know.

The ability of a system to resolve low-level detail is not going to measurable on such a blunt instrument.

Having changed from a multi-way fused/neoned socket strip to a dedicated consumer unit I am satisfied that there has been change for the better and good value for money for the £70 it cost me. I don't give a stuff if it can be measured or not. From an engineering viewpoint, I suspect that reducing impedances in the live, neutral and earth lines is in general beneficial to any system.

That's fine Jo, but I do give a stuff. I want to know where this effect is coming from and why.

So basically so far this thread has told me we have another wonderful effect that cannot be measured, that cannot be shown to exist and which cannot be represented empirically. All we can do is experience it and yet there is no proof of that experience.

One for the Journal (http://www.jir.com/) I think.

Fox

The results are audible but you don't believe it.

Fair enough, but if people are happy why not just let them be?

ATB

Mike

Have you read Ben Duncan's tomes on electrical supply for recording studios etc? Might steer you in the right direction.

Why are you getting hung up on measurements all of a sudden? Did you buy your turntable on the basis of measurements you performed or on its sound? And if you did measure it, how did you correlate the measurements of TT 'A' vs TT 'B' to their sound differences....ditto for your amps, stands, speakers etc.

All we can do is experience it and yet there is no proof of that experience.

Fox,
That proof is available, just not in 'measured' form via a forum. I for one would welcome yourself or anyone from pfm via pm (+ a chat first via phone) to visit for an evening to have a beer and listen to some tunes. There is also a standard ring main socket at the rear of the HiFi which could be swopped in/out to show the effect of this 'magic'.

The Wizard Riches was here yesterday to cast some 'magic' spells on my system... All of them have sound engineering reasons (I have a Physics degrees and an Acoustics MSc) but would be extremely difficult to measure even with the correct equipment or test method. Quite frankly life is too short to worry! :D Fox and Bub etc.. I'm not sure what your 'agendas' are to try and discredit something which is clearly giving a lot of people that have had it installed 'correctly' enjoyment. At the end of yesterday both Roy and myself where extremely gob smacked... Roy actually said my Active SBL's were the best he had heard (well equal first ;) with another RKR system... I am extremely happy with that (it got a 9-9.5 on Roy's scale). I was listening last night until my eyes couldn't stay open any longer, as soon as I was awake I've been listening until now (2 hours!).

All I know is before yesterday I was not totally happy with my RKR installation...When originally installed both Roy, myself and another PFMer that helped install it were not as impressed as we hoped (there was an improvement but not as large as expected)... I always had doubts that my std CD2 and std 102 were not up to the task of an active 250 system! Roy visited again (as he wasn't happy either) and did a number of tweaks, fitted my earth spike (2 m from CU), checked connections/closed contacts, balanced/set my 250's, repaired one 250, etc. over the whole day... We were both just playing CDs at the end. Enjoying the music... A very enjoyable day.

Now I am glad I had the installation performed. I would also be happy for any PFMers to hear my system just drop me a pm with your tel number and I'll call them... I'm in Essex ~40 minutes from London.

Dedicated mains, Memeras and the like certainly improve the sonic controversy of a PF thread, n'est ce pas?

You know, you can get very nerdy about mains, cables and the like. In the end, it’s all about enjoying your system, rather than tinkering with it.

Now, back to my new iPod headphones.

Peter
Born to be a tinker

Fwiw I think S-man is right - earthing is very important.


Here is a simplified explanation:
http://sound.westhost.com/earthing.htm
(see "Earth Loops")

Just because a system does not hum does not mean there is no signal or mains related intermodulation round this loop. This whole complex loop of grounding/earthing also (partially) explains why interconnect cables sound different.
I also believe it is a mistake to think that a mains transformer will somehow break this loop (other than at dc) or that a ground lift resistor is a total cure. Electrostatic coupling, magnetic coupling and RF pickup are the enemies here.

Thankfully I only have 2 mains connectinos to worry about, multiple sources and active systems must present some real issues - particularly if the active speakers plug into the mains at a different point on the ring main to the source equipment.

Its like any other tedious hi-fi sect. Just like Mana of old; all you need is a Cambridge Azur on a dedicated spur/Memera CU and you'll measure 9.652 on the Roy K Richter scale and be really happy and hear everyting.

No adgenda. In 2001 I rewired my HiFi with a 32A 2 x 15meter runs of Pirelli 10mm/2. A Siemens split-load CU for small industrial complexes and house-into-flat conversions, plus the 100A house fuse upgrade before the meter.

...and its fine... seriously... The ATC100s are juiced from their own dedicated unswitched socket and they sound exactly as ATCs should...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/224/494605270_1dc548587e.jpg

...but they sound identical in the socket on the right: a standard 16A 6mm/2 Wickes cable ring main feeding 4 double sockets.

So logically its:

1. Those brutes have deafened me/I don't have golden ears
2. I've buggered up the 32A install (but the house passed its wiring certification?!?!)
3. My equipment doesn't react to mains alterations.
4. Its bunkum.
5. Any (or all) of the above.

PS I still use the 32A feed 'cause I worked hard cramming 10mm/2 into a wall socket. It has a life of its own!
PPS Jo, I never demmed my mail order Orbe. Not demmed a thing since 2002.
PPPS I need to put up skirtings!
PPPPS Love to hear a RKR vs non-RKR.

PPPPS Love to hear a RKR vs non-RKR.

Fox, I think from memory you are in the middle of nowhere way up there somewhere... If in the SE the offer is open, even if you find it the same as the plug socket to the left ;) my standard socket is on the left... Does it make a difference which side the socket is on?

So logically its:

1. Those brutes have deafened me/I don't have golden ears
2. I've buggered up the 32A install (but the house passed its wiring certification?!?!)
3. My equipment doesn't react to mains alterations.
4. Its bunkum.
5. Any (or all) of the above.



can anyone detect my suspicion?

Fox's post is interesting (and BTW, I was not directly meaning an ATC active system in my earlier post. I was actually thinking about a multiple NAP system like RKR would appear to have) because I once tried plugging my preamp into a distant part of the ring main using a long extension, the rest of the sytem being plugged in as normal. The resulting sound was dire. IIRC I also measured a significant dc voltage between the two earth potentials.

Of course it's always possible that the extension lead was the wrong colour or the lawn mower had run it in badly :)

Any fule no extention leads are always top quality.

can anyone detect my suspicion?
No.







Only a total returd would deafen himself with his own hi-fi.

Seeing sound, as in a frequency response curve? Good idea.

So of those whom have done this. Lets see before and after room sweeps, plots anything beyond personal apocrypha to show how a HiFi has been transformed. If its as jaw-dropping as everyone says it is, then there will be clear changes in the frequency response of a room plot. What can be measured can be represented.

Or is it, like the vast majority of the nutbar tweaks here all unsubstantiated guff -- based on people's experiences after long periods of silence while you wait for your Spur to be installed, then for the gear to warm up, then for the cable to burn in (several weeks I am told, right?).

So you purchase your hifi by examining the room sweeps?
What other activities to you need to consult expert opinion on?

Your argument is the typical one ,which says that if something cannot be measured then it cannot exist, thus excluding the possibility that there is no further progress possible in our measurement technology


what crass arrogance

I am sure that you really are not as stupid as your posting makes you appear

laurie

Fox,
I see you tried comparing spurs to the ring main the kit was originally plugged into. I have had chance to do that, due to the layout etc of my room. I could hear a diff in my room, and thats all that matters to me.

Also, its simply down to which sound you prefer, isn't it? If I wanted measurements etc I could have done that, but I prefer the music thru spurs, simple as that.

Because you could not hear/ there was no diff in your room is one thing, but don't have a go at others because they were happy they could...

Laurie. I don't buy anything except on how it tickles my sense of lust... important things like looks etc.

I'm merely asking for evidence that I can examine and see where and why such phenomena exists otherwise its magic. And Magic is just another word for an unexplained phenomena.

>what crass arrogance
>I am sure that you really are not as stupid as your posting makes you appear

These appear to be mutually exclusive -- its either one or the other ;)

I think it is fair to say that ATC's do not give a flying shit about your mains, unless there is something unusually wrong with your supply. It would be more interesting to see whether your CD player changes sound?

RKR sent me an Easter card this year, which was very nice of him. If you are reading, Roy, thank-you very much for the card.

I think it is fair to say that ATC's do not give a flying shit about your mains, unless there is something unusually wrong with your supply. It would be more interesting to see whether your CD player changes sound?


What a bizarre comment! :confused: One might just as well say that ATCs (no apostrophe here, sport ... it's just plural ... whereas "it's" has an apostrophe because it's short for "it is") don't give FF about the size of the room either ... except I'm sure they would sound better in my room (which is 27' x 17') than a 12' x 12' room.

Why should a CDP be more affected by mains than ATCs (I'm assuming here you mean active ATCs, since passive ATCs certainly are not directly affected by mains)? If it's a cheap mainland-China import jobbie then it's gonna sound like shit whatever mains you plug into ... OTOH, if its a US$20K player then it may even have it's own generator!! :D

Regards,

Andy

What a bizarre comment! :confused: One might just as well say that ATCs (no apostrophe here, sport ... it's just plural ... whereas "it's" has an apostrophe because it's short for "it is") don't give FF about the size of the room either

Thank you for that Most Illuminating explanation.

I feel sure it is very welcome.

Wow, can you feel the love...

Mike

That's my experience with these speakers.

Any change in the electrical output from the CD player, whether due to mains, interconnect or other, is far greater than any noticeable improvement offered by plugging ATC's into a dedicated mains circuit. I assume this is because the MOSFET amp is a simple design and more tolerant of mains.

In the end, ATC build on a good design principle.

If you system lives or dies by the quality of mains, i.e. the difference between a 6mm ring circuit and 10mm spur, I would take it back and ask for a refund.

back to the naim benefits from mains arguement then....

any ide what leben amps think about mains quality?

darren

A problem with the RKR solution is it can only deal with electrons once they enter your building. Its like Jean de Florette fitting a Power Shower.

any ide what leben amps think about mains quality?


I should think they're deeply concerned by it, but perhaps not as much as other world issues such as global warming.

Mike

Quite refreshing to see an illustration of the apostrophe principle from Andyr (sport). Thought it had been consigned to history! Good on yer, mate A dedicated apostophe is vital to the musical flow of the English language

Quite refreshing to see an illustration of the apostrophe principle from Andyr (sport). Thought it had been consigned to history! Good on yer, mate A dedicated apostophe is vital to the musical flow of the English language

As are full stops...

Mike

Just had a quick chat with the leben and it seems he doesn't give a rats arse!

Darren

cue rule two re apost.....

So will you be Leben them alone now?

Mike

Mike

not sure there is a tangible benefit in pestering the amp anymore with daft questions

Darren

'Point' taken, Johnny Blue. Dearie me but you're on the ball! Can't handle apostrophes AND full stops! Mustn't let punctuation colon-ise this thread, though.

I had a good chat with the Naim's following the tweaking they got Friday and they are feeling much happier and much more grounded now the spike is in! In fact I have to keep my voice down just in case the ion Obelisk 3X upstairs hears and gets upset that it's not plugged into the dedicated CU... I do intend to use the redundant power shower cable to rewire it but I don't want to get it's hopes up...

John

did you dig a big hole then for the spike?

Darren

No hole dug... lump hammer... No RKR installed it for me :) covered it in loads of lovely gooey grease tape after the soldered connection, then bagged it from the elements. More bass now...

How long do earth spikes take to run in? ;)
it's ~ 1m by 12mm diameter... and does having it silver plated improve the sound ?

Silver plated? I'd have thought you'd go for solid silver. Seriously, if your spike is one metre (and I imagine at least a few cms. of that is above ground), it'll help to keep it moist in long dry periods if its position is prone to drying out.

I will water it regularly... Maybe it will grow into a solid silver spike over time...

Laurie. I don't buy anything except on how it tickles my sense of lust... important things like looks etc.

I'm merely asking for evidence that I can examine and see where and why such phenomena exists otherwise its magic. And Magic is just another word for an unexplained phenomena.

>what crass arrogance
>I am sure that you really are not as stupid as your posting makes you appear

These appear to be mutually exclusive -- its either one or the other ;)


Evidence:.......I can easily demonstrate the effect......I am sure others can too

Your definition that unexplained phenomena are "magic" is a stupid thing to say......re-iterating my point above...ie that you have the arrogance to suggest that because we cannot measure it (now) then it does not really exist (=magic...ie nonsense))


By the way....arrogance and ignorance are not mutually exclusive...quite the reverse in fact........ignorance tends to breed a simplistic, cut`n`dry (false) certainty ...aka arrogance

The old saying: "the more one learns , the more one realises how little is really known" is entirely aposite here.....your apparent confidence in our ability to measure everything, and thus consign to "magic"- ie mumbo-jumbo) that which we cannot measure, is a true example of ignorance-based arrogance

laurie

As is customary in this repeating "groundhog"-style thread, the onus of proof is on the people who are making outlandish claims, Laurie.

As is customary in this repeating "groundhog"-style thread, the onus of proof is on the people who are making outlandish claims, Laurie.

Nonsense.

Your thinking seems a bit muddled

They are only outlandish if you don`t believe the claims.

(I am sure others of my persuasion would concur)

I am not trying to prove anything. We have made some modifications and report benefits. Others, like you can do as you wish, including ignoring these reports, or try them for yourself. Feel free. There is no contest here

Why on earth would there be a need to prove anything?

The benefits I have reaped exist for me whatever you think or do. If I fail to "prove" them (to your satisfaction)...does that mean they somehow cease to exist for me?

This is not a contest, or a court case

I just feel it worthwhile to correct some of the blatant claptrap espoused by some of the above contributors, regarding measurements etc

Laurie

I'm not in the least bit muddled.

The claimed improvements are either measurable, or they are not. If they are measurable, show the data, if they are not, the claims are "outlandish" IMO. I personally don't believe the claims, firstly because RKR'd systems I have heard sound "nothing special" [5 out of 10 on my scale, haha], and secondly because there is no theoretical reason why this mains rigmarole should improve a hi-fi.

So which?

if shakin' stevens has the same vocal range as Elvis then how do you measure the fact that Elvis sounds better? How is it proven?

I only scored 2 on the Bub scale. I immediately ditched the RKR, the Neats, the Dynavectors, upgraded the TT. I now score 9. (This has been calculated on the phone, a visit is unnecessary even if welcome). I kept the Densen but as Roy carefully explained, it could only work to 0.3% optimisation protocol without the RKR and was therefore not worth Laurie's audition.

there is no theoretical reason why this mains rigmarole should improve a hi-fi.


I believe there is a theoretical reason why mains topology makes a difference and it relates to earthing/grounding.

I'm not in the least bit muddled.



Sadly, I don't think you would understand the theory.

If it sounds better, it IS better. - I know that my system definately sounds better after the dedicated Memera consumer unit & separate spurs.

Personally I couldn't care less about exactly how improved mains supply benefits my system, but what I do know is that I now get a much 'cleaner' sound with more control/authority, deeper/tighter bass etc.

And considering the paltry amount involved, the improvement is extremely good value compared to a 'box upgrade' that would bring similar improvements.

A big thanks to Roy from me, who I consider a real star for investing so much of his own time helping other music loving people improve their system for minimal cost & with little to no financial profit for himself - I don't think there's many people around that would be that generous with their knowledge/time...

I believe there is a theoretical reason why mains topology makes a difference and it relates to earthing/grounding.

Sadly, I don't think you would understand the theory.


AIUI, England is the only place in the world which uses "ring mains" instead of spurs ... I believe this originated during WW2, when copper supplies were low - and should be diverted towards the war effort, anyway!! :)

I don't know whether new housing in the UK is still allowed to have ring mains or whether they are just a "feature" of 40-50 year old houses? Could it be that ring mains cause a significant degradation to hifi ... and simply by replacing it all with spurs will drastically improve things? :confused:

Irrespective ... RKR is indeed a scholar and a gentleman! :)

Regards,

Andy

I believe there is a theoretical reason why mains topology makes a difference and it relates to earthing/grounding.

Sadly, I don't think you would understand the theory.
Post it, and let's see.

Here are some Pron pictures of my RKR install...

The spagetti junction behind the Fraim...
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/jonnoshore/IMGP1291.jpg


The local earh spike which helped massively...
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/jonnoshore/IMGP1293.jpg


One of the 63amp flexible cable to each piece of kit from the 48amp MCBO's...
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/jonnoshore/IMGP1292.jpg


The offer still stands for the disbelievers ;) only a pm away... or any other interested pfmers locally can have a listen too...

to be honest I can't be bothered to post too much more on here... I'm going to go listen :D

I'm not in the least bit muddled.

The claimed improvements are either measurable, or they are not. If they are measurable, show the data, if they are not, the claims are "outlandish" IMO. I personally don't believe the claims, firstly because RKR'd systems I have heard sound "nothing special" [5 out of 10 on my scale, haha], and secondly because there is no theoretical reason why this mains rigmarole should improve a hi-fi.

So which?

1.just because we are unable to measure an effect does not preclude its existence./..I`m getting sick of repeating this!

2.There is a pefectly good theoretical reason...power supply intermodulation distortion resulting from voltage drop across impedances such as contacts
To explain: if your water supply has a high impedance, then turning on the kitchen tap will modulate the flow of waterto other parts of the system, eg the shower. This is quite a well known effect and can easily be solved by giving each appliance it`s own dedicated feed

laurie

I'm pretty sure that I read some research into mains earth problems and ground earth spikes in particular which showed that the impedance of such things is way higher than a typical mains earth point, watered spike or not.
Potentially a very bad thing if you suffer an equipment fault........

I'll post the link if I can remember it.

Found it - on Martin Clark's excellent 'acoustica' site.
Can't link direct as the site uses frames but here is the text. Sorry it is rather long but serves as a wake up call to those inclined to dabble.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

One apparent alternative in order to provide a local earth would be to connect the new earth to the outlets supplying the system, and disconnecting the service earth. This is idea is worth exploring further only to highlight the risks it brings. The fundamental problem with DIY earth rods is simple: it's difficult to get even close to the service earth impedance (usually c. 0.2 - 0.5 Ohms)- and the stake's impedance will vary with soil type, season, rainfall etc. One poster on the Naim Forum connected a digital multimeter between his house earth and a new earth stake in the garden:

AC was more of a surprise (the numbers weren't this high
when I first installed). PD is about 1.5V, and current about 150mA.
I presume this must be 50Hz, but there's no way for me to measure it.
This earth spike equates to ~10ohm impedance: rather good, actually, for a single spike. If it were 'perfect', close to 0 ohms, the measured current would be correspondingly huge; V=IR and all that. Now imagine this earth stake is collecting fault current from some sudden fault in your audio system; with your earth stake at, say, 25ohms - more typical for a 4 foot rod - the current that will flow will be ~10A at UK mains voltage. This may NOT be enough to blow the faulty equipment's fuse, the basic intention of safety earthing. Consider the implications well. This is why TT systems must use of RCDs set to trip at 30mA leakage and not fuses in the consumer unit.
Finally, if you do disconnect the provided earth on a PME supply and substitute your own there is a real risk of electrocution during a fault in the rest of your house or, theoretically, those of your neighbours too. No wire or patch of earth has zero impedance, so fault current flowing to earth elsewhere will raise all bonded metalwork (think radiators and pipework) to a significant potential above your own earth spike. If, for some bizarre reason, you happened to be touching, say, the radiator while you fiddle with your hifi during such a fault there's a finite risk of electrocution. If you mistakenly happen to ground part of your kit to the radiator, whilst still relying on your own independent earth under such conditions, well you better budget for replacing at least the speakers... For information, 2 meters is considered sufficient separation between bonded items for certain classes of separately-derived earth bondings under IEE regulations - presumably because it would require a determined effort to bridge the gap!

In passing, and here because it belongs nowhere else really, a caveat that applies to all PME system users: do not connect earth and neutral together directly at any point, eg using a 'modified' plug, thinking that if they are bonded once, more must be better. The reason is fairly subtle: the earth wire exists as a separate wire inside your house for fault currents only - an escape path. If it was connected to the neutral it woud effectively become exposed to normal load current. If your neutral develops a fault, everything would continue to operate as normal except that all the items normally bonded to earth would float up to some indeterminate potential, possibly dangerously high, because the earth is now a service conductor. Think about that for a bit...

Note again that all this scary stuff refers only to PME systems. Where PME is not the norm locally, the rules are different again. If you have an electrical supply which is earthed to a distribution company spike near the point it enters your house ('TT' - the norm in many non-suburban locations) there is no problem, and multiple earth spikes - bonded as required by your local electrical codes of practice - will indeed improve matters by lowering the earth's apparent impedance. Multiple earth spikes should be spaced at least 2x length apart for lowest impedance.

So if it is all so problematic, why bother?

OK scary stuff over, this one is simple: we've heard the difference a new stake can make and it can be remarkably unsubtle. I (martin) have a strong suspicion I can't as yet test that the reason(s) is/are less to do with 'low resistance' and more to do with 'low impedance'. I'm not talking RF here - just a few feet of connecting wire has too much inductance for that - but I suspect that at audio frequencies, particularly in the midrange, a local earth stake can provide a lower inductance route for noise currents than can the mains wiring; and that this is the crucial difference. Yes there are noise voltages at these frequencies created by audio gear - the greatest source is rectification (diodes) in power supplies, particularly in high power amplifiers, which generate all kinds of harmonics. Compare that with the conventional view of what the earth connection does:

I still don't see why these figures should affect sound quality -
the current flow comes into the house through the supply,
travels between two adjacent connections on the earth
connection bar, and straight out to the earth rod.

Well yes, if the current were constant, and at one dominant frequency; but broadly it is neither. The earth conductor, although intended only for safety use, also sees the leakage current from many, many items of consumer electronics with EMC-compliance filters; your house's wiring, including the earth, may even act as an aerial if you live close to powerful radio users - CB sets, radio stations etc. Since there is obviously some impedance involved, anytime the current or relative magnitudes of harmonics change, the apparent voltage and spectral content of this noise current will as well - and that could provide some odd effects for a system would 'see' a changing reference. Remember these currents will appear as 'common-mode' noise to the system and so stray capacitances, such as exists between the primary and secondary of all transformers, can be a source of coupling into the audio circuitry; there are certainly some subtle effects at work. Some of these ponderings come back to the mains noise investigation/musings and the measurements I've been playing with since. Whilst the jury is still out, I've been learning some rather interesting things (to me anyway!) as to how equipment interacts with the mains. Drawing current at 50Hz is just a part of it in terms of sonic impact; Andy Weekes commented:
I strongly suspect that it's the RF side of things where the
improvement comes - it's a complex thing to model, and I
suspect in particular installations that certain earth cable
lengths may sound better than others, dependant upon
local RF levels and frequencies.

It's such a big improvement though, and surprisingly it's rhythmically
better rather than just quieter in a HiFi sense - weird.

I suspect that the ease with which low-noise, non-degenerated
bipolar transistor amp stages can be pushed into non-linearity by
tiny amounts (relatively) of HF noise, has something to do with it
too, if my recent PSU work is anything to go by. Just small
amounts of unwanted noise can cause severe ill-effects.

We'll leave it there for now...just two things:
Play with your electricity supply and you are on your own. Do we need to say this ?
From 01 Jan 05 in the UK Electrical works such as this need to be signed-off by a suitably-qualified person or approved by your local Building control inspectorate, following the introduction of the new Approved Document Part P component of the Building Regulations.


Further reading:

- UK Building Regulations, Approved Documents Part P
- Leaflet EMC 07: Protective multiple earthing on the RSGB Website.
- Regulations for Electrical Installations (Edition 16) & lEE On-site Guide, available at good bookshops, your local library or via interlibrary loan.
- BS7430:1998 (Code of Practice for Earthing) but at £116 for 86 pages it's probably worth asking the library first..

It needs a bit of review and probably update, but I stand by that Rob.

1.just because we are unable to measure an effect does not preclude its existence./..I`m getting sick of repeating this!
This may be sort of true, but it's not applicable here.

2.There is a pefectly good theoretical reason...power supply intermodulation distortion resulting from voltage drop across impedances such as contacts
If this is good theory then it's measurable. In practice I think the (easily measurable) impedance of the incoming mains dominates non-faulty installations. So perhaps more theory required?

Paul

This playground banter is all rather amusing, but as I pointed out (way back!) on page 4 all the RKR aficionados have to do is this:

When installing the RKR set-up, keep one double (or single) wall socket near the hi-fi system 'ordinary' -- by this I mean that it's just connected to the normal household mains supply.

Then buy the cheapest approved mains block you can find and plug it into the wall socket, retain the original mains leads that came with the equipment, and plug these into the mains block. After listening to your system powered RKR-style, if leaving the house, going to bed, or whatever, simply power down the system, unplug Roy's 'beasts' from the equipment's IEC sockets, and replace them with the original equipment leads connected to the household mains supply. Switch back on. This should take all of (approx) 60 seconds. When listening again, simply reverse the process.


I'm sure someone like Martin could design a switch operated method that enables flipping from one set-up to the other. Problem solved! I’m sure that won’t stop the endless tit-for-tat arguing, though…

Mike

If this is good theory then it's measurable.

Paul


Really? Who says so?



Laurie

And here comes Laurie, right on cue...

And here comes Laurie, right on cue...

Please check my "label"....you get the Full Half Hour...vfm is what counts!!!
laurie

Lol. I feel privileged, Laurie. Honestly, though, I remember seeing these exact same arguments about 5 years ago on the Naim forum and they're still going on! And no progress has been made whatsoever. I'm pretty sure that Paul Ranson and you were 'best friends' around that time, too!!

Mike

am I the only one thinking....


''loose bricks in my wall''


''bloody awful cable mess''

'' messy cables all over the garden''


?

I was exceptionally sceptical about dedicated mains improving hi-fi performance until I had it done. I had two set ups with a single ring main and then went for 4 separate spurs. What can I say - it made a tremendous difference - greater detail and control.

The 4 separate spurs were the most noticable by far.

I'm perplexed. Isn't all this the job of a power supply regulator?

I'm pretty sure that Paul Ranson and you were 'best friends' around that time, too!!

Mike

As it happens, I believe that Paul and I both agree on a large number of issues
and I can tell that his line of reasoning is generally intelligent, unmuddled and incisive. I certainly bear no malice.Quite the reverse. I think that we both enjoy a good "joust"

I am always depressed that disagreements...which in fact form the basis of real progress...often descend into slanging matches, usually involving personal abuse. I guess that some folk get too emotionally attached to a particular viewpoint and feel that they have to defend it "to the death "

.....or else I am just too damn undiplomatic in my postings!

laurie

I'm sure someone like Martin could design a switch operated method that enables flipping from one set-up to the other. Problem solved! I’m sure that won’t stop the endless tit-for-tat arguing, though…


been there (compared ring main/mains block next to spurs), and got the T shirt.

Makes me laugh really...picture the following words in a Golum type voice:

"multiple spus are really really good, yeeees they are, they are, u know"
"no, they are the work of the devil, You can't measure em, they are not legal, baaaad boooy/giiirll"

etc etc....

Records aren't the only thing that goes round and round on this forum, are they?

Laurie, considering it's been going on for 5 years+ it certainly looks that way!

Question for jonnoshore: why did you use such long mains leads when the CU is so close to the hi-fi?

Mike

am I the only one thinking....


''loose bricks in my wall''


''bloody awful cable mess''

'' messy cables all over the garden''


?

No you are not the only one. :)

But then I'm a Hi Fi light-weight and assume that because I can hear no pops, clicks or buzzes from other appliances, just consistently good sound - it must be ok. I'm sure I may be missing out but hey, there comes a point where just playing CDs sounds like more fun than ripping out my electrics.

Steve.

been there (compared ring main/mains block next to spurs), and got the T shirt.

Makes me laugh really...picture the following words in a Golum type voice:

"multiple spus are really really good, yeeees they are, they are, u know"
"no, they are the work of the devil, You can't measure em, they are not legal, baaaad boooy/giiirll"

etc etc....

Records aren't the only thing that goes round and round on this forum, are they?


Ha-ha, I think quite a few here have got those records AND all the remixes!

Andrew, we can only hope that your eminently sensible approach filters through to the rest of the brethren.

Mike

Martin could design a switch operated method that enables flipping from one set-up to the other Oh I wouldn't trust me to such things:

http://www.acoustica.org.uk/misc/adaptor.jpg
other terminations on request

Mike,
I've had my rig now checked twice (in the last 2 years), by qualified sparkys, with no issues).

Moreover, I've swapped back on a couple of occasions, and do not like the sound the rig produces from the ring main (using hydra's, russ andrew mains block, and a normal 5 way mains adaptor thingy).

Enough is enough - I'll just listen to the music now...

Andrew,

How dare you do something so straightforward and simple! Are you mad? Please consult the forum handbook where you will learn the required procedure for circumstances such as this, which is to become involved in never-ending incredibly convoluted arguments about next to nothing, and squeal like a girl when no-one agrees with you.

Please take this as a final warning.

Mike

Mike,
i consider my self suitable reprimanded.

:-)

Laurie, considering it's been going on for 5 years+ it certainly looks that way!

Question for jonnoshore: why did you use such long mains leads when the CU is so close to the hi-fi?

Mike

Michael,

The Fraim is Quite high and I wanted all the cables to be the same length so the ones on the bottom are coiled the ones at the top less so. I aso didn't want any to be too short...

am I the only one thinking....


''loose bricks in my wall''


''bloody awful cable mess''

'' messy cables all over the garden''


?

The loose brick is an air brick...

Cable mess can only be seen looking down from above the SBL's behind the Fraim... So is only seen from that view.

The main bundle of cables (white) in the garden is for power to the shed, not fitted yet, so is not really an issue and will be routed along the fence when I get round to it... So a while yet then :)))

Plus there are messier areas of the garden to consider first ;)


The sonic benefits outway the visual degradation in my view and could easily be improved if that was important to me.

1.just because we are unable to measure an effect does not preclude its existence./..I`m getting sick of repeating this!

2.There is a pefectly good theoretical reason...power supply intermodulation distortion resulting from voltage drop across impedances such as contacts
To explain: if your water supply has a high impedance, then turning on the kitchen tap will modulate the flow of waterto other parts of the system, eg the shower. This is quite a well known effect and can easily be solved by giving each appliance it`s own dedicated feed

laurie
1. Carry on talking like that, and you could have a career in the clergy.

2. Invalid analogy, shurely?

Fair enough. If it had been me I would have fitted the CU further away from the system (as far as the mains lead feeding the component that’s the longest distance away allows, and kept all the leads this length) -- then your leads would all still be the same length but not coiled up on the floor.

Mike

Bub, you're just dying to keep this going, aren't you? ;)

Mike

Come on, Laurie, play ball!

Mike

Well, actually I'm not particularly interested in RKR mains, tbh.

Absolutely, of course not -- and may I say you're doing a brilliant job hiding your lack of interest.

I'm not having a go, btw; I'm simply fascinated why these discussions are so emotive. Not that I don’t enjoy the banter, you understand.

Mike

Well, it's sort of interesting in an abstract sense, in that some people who have ripped up their houses to install "special" mains (at fairly great inconvenience I would imagine), all insist that it was a great idea to do so.

I'm a bit sceptical.

You seem to be trying to catalyse an argument, Michael.

2. Invalid analogy, shurely?
Actually quite a useful analogy. But you can do measurements yourself to demonstrate the futility of the more elephantine installations judged from this pov.

Stick a volt meter on the mains at the hifi. Turn the kettle on. Observe the drop. Stroke beard. Realise it doesn't matter how you arrange your mains supply (other than by using another phase, but that's not really a solution...) this effect exists. I see 0.5-1.0v with a kettle, which I think is a good result.

(If you're not confident you won't kill yourself or set fire to stuff, don't do this)

Paul

I haven't got a voltmeter. Bring yours next time? And beard. We can check my Naim-recommended spur. What fun we will have.

I see 0.5-1.0v with a kettle, which I think is a good result.

Paul

Paul, you need a good old fashioned kettle on the gas hob.
Nicer tasting tea and coffee too ;)

Of course.

(To both....)

An electric kettle is a convenient test load for the mains, there's no other reason for owning one....

Paul

Well, it's sort of interesting in an abstract sense, in that some people who have ripped up their houses to install "special" mains (at fairly great inconvenience I would imagine), all insist that it was a great idea to do so.

I'm a bit sceptical.


And rightly so. However surely there's been more than enough dialogue on this subject here and elsewhere over the years for you (and others) to have made up your mind without further need to comment?

You seem to be trying to catalyse an argument, Michael.


On the contrary, James, the purpose of my intervention is to (attempt) to highlight just how silly all of this is. But then I'm not entirely averse to a bit of silliness now and then.

I see Paul is desperate to keep the thread 'on track' ;)

Mike

....... surely there's been more than enough dialogue on this subject here and elsewhere over the years for you (and others) to have made up your mind without further need to comment?
Says who? Having heard two frightful systems with the RKR treatment*, I think it's a sensible counterpoint.

*not that the frightfulness was necessarily caused by the RKR mains stuff.

Says who?


I would imagine anyone that's followed the endless 'mains wars' over the years and thus in the process managed to obtain all necessary information. This stuff has been going on for at least 5 years. If you haven't worked out what to do by now (i.e if it is worthwhile installing or not) then it seems unlikely you ever will.

Having heard two frightful systems with the RKR treatment*, I think it's a sensible counterpoint.


I'm not saying 'RKR mains' works -- I have no idea -- but it would seem that the only way to know for sure is to try it yourself. Are you in a position to do this?

*not that the frightfulness was necessarily caused by the RKR mains stuff.


I'm glad you added that bit. There could have been a multitude of things responsible for causing the "frightfulness".

Mike

This playground banter is all rather amusing, but as I pointed out (way back!) on page 4 all the RKR aficionados have to do is this:

Quote:
When installing the RKR set-up, keep one double (or single) wall socket near the hi-fi system 'ordinary' -- by this I mean that it's just connected to the normal household mains supply.

Then buy the cheapest approved mains block you can find and plug it into the wall socket, retain the original mains leads that came with the equipment, and plug these into the mains block. After listening to your system powered RKR-style, if leaving the house, going to bed, or whatever, simply power down the system, unplug Roy's 'beasts' from the equipment's IEC sockets, and replace them with the original equipment leads connected to the household mains supply. Switch back on. This should take all of (approx) 60 seconds. When listening again, simply reverse the process.
I'm sure someone like Martin could design a switch operated method that enables flipping from one set-up to the other. Problem solved! I’m sure that won’t stop the endless tit-for-tat arguing, though…

Mike



I think this paragraph or so really needs to be re-stated to bring home totally what people who plays with their mains are like in the head.

Its important. Read it, then read it again.

Lol. garyi, I was just trying to simplify things. Incidentally, I don't "play" with my mains. I live in a flat with a shared CU so I'm not in the position to try RKR's set-up. Perhaps you have an alternative suggestion? Keep it clean, mind!

Mike

I'm not saying 'RKR mains' works -- I have no idea -- but it would seem that the only way to know for sure is to try it yourself. Are you in a position to do this?
You must be kidding.

I'm glad you added that bit. There could have been a multitude of things responsible for causing the "frightfulness".
Yes, but interestingly, they were both harsh, fatiguing, and one was rather "strident", a bit like a foghorn, really.

Also, RKR has gone on record (or CD) saying that there's distortion on a Verve recording. There actually isn't.

You must be kidding.


Is that a yes or a no? If you're living arrangements are similar to mine then it's a definite no-no.

Yes, but interestingly, they were both harsh, fatiguing, and one was rather "strident", a bit like a foghorn, really.


Fair enough, but as I said there could have been a multitude of reasons for what you heard.

Also, RKR has gone on record (or CD) saying that there's distortion on a Verve recording. There actually isn't.


I see. I'm not aware of the CD. Maybe he has a faulty cable somewhere in his system, or something else? Again, there could be a variety of reasons why he hears this distortion and you don't.

Mike

Paul, you need a good old fashioned kettle on the gas hob.
Nicer tasting tea and coffee too ;)

I've just plugged my kettle into my dedicated spur, there is a spare one spur... and the tea tastes far better than the ring main and the hob.
RKR tea anyone?

I've just plugged my kettle into my dedicated spur, there is a spare one spur... and the tea tastes far better than the ring main and the hob.
RKR tea anyone?

:D :D :D

I see. I'm not aware of the CD. Maybe he has a faulty cable somewhere in his system, or something else? Again, there could be a variety of reasons why he hears this distortion and you don't.

He has Isobariks.

Ah, the old glorified drinks cabinets -- that would explain it.

I never caught whether you were able to go the RKR route or not? The reason I ask is if it's not practical then there's not much point getting involved in the aggravation. I'd try it but I doubt my landlord would be too happy!

Mike

Well, it's sort of interesting in an abstract sense, in that some people who have ripped up their houses to install "special" mains (at fairly great inconvenience I would imagine), all insist that it was a great idea to do so.

Well, It worked for me. i've only heard the same at 3 other places, and regardless of what I thought, the other places owners all liked what it did too. Hardly conclusive is personal opinion, tho.

Also, RKR has gone on record (or CD) saying that there's distortion on a Verve recording. There actually isn't.
To be fair to RKR the rip he used does have distortion.

Paul

Dedicated mains tea from an electric kettle? You must be in your element; Assam I.

Dedicated mains tea from an electric kettle? You must be in your element; Assam I.

Due to time restrains the kettle was only placed on the carpet... with more tweaking and maybe with the kettle on the Fraim I could maybe make the best cup of tea I've ever had... Cheers.

1. Carry on talking like that, and you could have a career in the clergy.

2. Invalid analogy, shurely?

Eh?

Laurie

And rightly so. However surely there's been more than enough dialogue on this subject here and elsewhere over the years for you (and others) to have made up your mind without further need to comment?



On the contrary, James, the purpose of my intervention is to (attempt) to highlight just how silly all of this is. But then I'm not entirely averse to a bit of silliness now and then.

I see Paul is desperate to keep the thread 'on track' ;)

Mike

Mike

As Bub suggests, your sport seems to be to attempt to catalyse some sort of argument....for whatever reasons

If you find the dialogue tiresome why do you waste your time reading it?

I suggest that your motives are really far more sinister..

laurie

Laurie,

You made four consecutive posts (before deleting them) all indicating your burning desire to continue this pointless (age-old) argument. Incidentally, you're not the only one guilty; there are others.

and will probably for another 5.........your point being..........????


My point being -- why on earth bother arguing with someone that is NEVER going to agree with you?

It's quite clear (after 5 years+ of debate!) that Paul Ranson et al will never see the merit of "RKR mains" no matter how much you try to dismiss their opinion. All you're doing is going round and round and round in circles achieving nothing. I also direct the same thing to Paul Ranson and people on his side of the fence: why not just leave those that enjoy their hi-fi with "RKR mains" to get on with it? It doesn't matter if you don't believe their claims. For them it works -- end of story. It’s them that have to listen to it.

If only people would take a leaf out of Andy C's book:

Enough is enough - I'll just listen to the music now...


Indeed!

If you find the dialogue tiresome why do you waste your time reading it?


To bang your bloody heads together like an adult would do to children fighting in a playground!

Mike

Are you a prep school housemaster?

Lol.

To bang your bloody heads together like an adult would do to children fighting in a playground!

Michael,

I can partly see your logic, but I'm happy to leave others to make their own 'informed' choices re this issue. i reply that i like the spurs ethes etc because i do actually like the end result sound-wise. But what I like is not for everyone, is it?

For me, its all down to how you want your music presented, and how you like your music to sound.

Andrew,

You're far too sensible ;)

I've said my piece. If the 'usual suspects' want to continue their completely pointless argument forever and ever good luck to them.

Mike

Mike


I suggest that your motives are really far more sinister..

laurie

He not grooming Bub, is he??

You're far too sensible

Not really - I've tried in the past with some arguments on here before, and until you can actually verbally put your argument across, sometimes it gets lost in written translation.

I'll try initially, then leave it. It's only a forum, after all.

Post it, and let's see.

I suspect I'm wasting my time, there's no theory, but here are a few thoughts:

RKR's recommendations seem to be based on the following claimed technical improvements:

A/ Lower impedance supply
B/ Less intermodulation of supplies between each item of hifi and by other equipment powered by the ring main
C/ Clean earth

(Please add to this list if I have missed any)

Can we define 3 topologies of mains supply (for the hifi) as follows?

1/ Ring main
2/ Separate spur
3/ RKR i.e. multiple spurs with the fewest fuses, connectors and switches in circuit.


Personally I think option 2 is the optimum - in terms of benefit versus cost and hassle.
However one possible, and apparently unrecognised, benefit of option 3 is that by having long spurs the earth impedance between each item of equipment is raised . The ground connection effected by the interconnects is then relatively lower impedance compared to the earth impedance through the mains connection.

Because it's easier to daydream than to actually do something, I have not tried deliberately raising the mains earth impedance between units (of course there is potentially a safety issue here as well) to see what effect it has on the sound. Another possibility is to lower the earth impedance from one item to another, this could be done by connecting the mains earth to one item only, then running an earth braid to each item starred off the 1st item.

Oh dear... :rolleyes:

Mike

Michael, what exactly is your positive contribution to this thread?

Markus,

My positive contribution is to try and end this pointless never-ending debate about "RKR mains" by highlighting the futility of arguing with someone that’s never in a month of Sundays going to agree with you. The same points are being reiterated over and over with no progress being made, and it’s tedious in the extreme. However I realise that better people than me have in the past tried and failed to stop the nonsense, so I'll bow out of this particular discussion.

Mike

I suspect I'm wasting my time, there's no theory, but here are a few thoughts:

RKR's recommendations seem to be based on the following claimed technical improvements:

A/ Lower impedance supply
B/ Less intermodulation of supplies between each item of hifi and by other equipment powered by the ring main
C/ Clean earth

(Please add to this list if I have missed any)

Can we define 3 topologies of mains supply (for the hifi) as follows?

1/ Ring main
2/ Separate spur
3/ RKR i.e. multiple spurs with the fewest fuses, connectors and switches in circuit.


Personally I think option 2 is the optimum - in terms of benefit versus cost and hassle.
However one possible, and apparently unrecognised, benefit of option 3 is that by having long spurs the earth impedance between each item of equipment is raised . The ground connection effected by the interconnects is then relatively lower impedance compared to the earth impedance through the mains connection.

Because it's easier to daydream than to actually do something, I have not tried deliberately raising the mains earth impedance between units (of course there is potentially a safety issue here as well) to see what effect it has on the sound. Another possibility is to lower the earth impedance from one item to another, this could be done by connecting the mains earth to one item only, then running an earth braid to each item starred off the 1st item.

I think A and especially C are important in my setup B only has 3 metres of 10mm flex 1.5m down each spur.

A
I took this to the extreme with my system and installed 35mm tails under the floor to the Memera unit (130 amp cable) a first for a RKR system and use 10mm flex for each spur rather than 6mm. Overkill most likely... I just thought I'd do it once and forget about it...

B
Each of my spurs are short 1.5m (basically the flex) from each piece of kit, but is ~12m+ away from the other CU and the rest of the house.

C
Before I did my earth spike I had an issue when I plugged my AV amp (on a different spur) into the Naim system for the AV front channels... it seemed to sit on the sound... after the earth spike. No effect from plugging the AV through the Naim. I think I had a weird earth Triangle going on... Now you can't hear the AV cable being connected.

I also imagine that at each connection, where there is an imedance change, there is a point at which the 'noise' can reflect on the cables, if electrical / acoustic analogies link like in other areas and the less connections you have and make each as low impedance as possible you will get less sonic imprint from your mains... I know 1D duct acoustics from my job (NVH in car air induction ) and any x-sectional step change creates a reflection point for standing waves in a system... Not sure if there is any analogy but I was prepared to take a blind leap of faith with RKR install and now am glad I did.
I however could be talking complete twoddle too ;)

It was approx £300 worth of electrical stuff relative to a system worth ~£6k secondhand (so a 5% outlay not too much really). I now feel the system is performing as it should, before I always felt the CD or the Pre were letting the side down. CD2 and 102 in an active system, I'd still like to upgrade these two items at some point but am happy with the sound for now so am in no rush...

Laurie,

You made four consecutive posts (before deleting them) all indicating your burning desire to continue this pointless (age-old) argument. Incidentally, you're not the only one guilty; there are others.


To bang your bloody heads together like an adult would do to children fighting in a playground!

Mike


Well Mike, it`s a free country......but your arrogance and pompous self importance are quite breathataking.....you must have one huge ego

You may consider it (this discussion) pointless, though it seems to be holding you attention well enough. And at least it provides a vehicle for you to display your wonderful wit. Isn`t that point enough?

laurie



laurie

Laurie, Michael has retired from the discussion.

Mains discussions are tiresome enough (we've only had them about 200 times I believe) without metadiscussions about why the discussion is pointless or not, and meta-metadiscussions about the style of the metadiscussion.

Either this thread goes back on topic or it will be closed.

Markus - moderating

I'd be grateful if any knowledgeable sort would supply a quick answer about whether any of this applies to the US situation. 'Yes', 'no', or 'sort of' will be sufficient detail.

(I'm building a house at the moment, and if there are issues to take up with the electricians, the time is approaching.)

In your position its certainly worth doing something. I found 95.26% of any improvement in the first separate spur, so fit one - 6mm or 10mm - toss a coin.

I'd be grateful if any knowledgeable sort would supply a quick answer about whether any of this applies to the US situation. 'Yes', 'no', or 'sort of' will be sufficient detail.

(I'm building a house at the moment, and if there are issues to take up with the electricians, the time is approaching.)

I'd have a dedicated 20 Amp circuit installed for the hi-fi. Make sure you have a 200 Amp service to the home.

And you get a free pass on the Holy War because U.S domestic wiring is all radial circuits ('spurs') anyway - no rings.

Laurie,

You made four consecutive posts (before deleting them) all indicating your burning desire to continue this pointless (age-old) argument. Incidentally, you're not the only one guilty; there are others.



My point being -- why on earth bother arguing with someone that is NEVER going to agree with you?

It's quite clear (after 5 years+ of debate!) that Paul Ranson et al will never see the merit of "RKR mains" no matter how much you try to dismiss their opinion. All you're doing is going round and round and round in circles achieving nothing. I also direct the same thing to Paul Ranson and people on his side of the fence: why not just leave those that enjoy their hi-fi with "RKR mains" to get on with it? It doesn't matter if you don't believe their claims. For them it works -- end of story. It’s them that have to listen to it.

If only people would take a leaf out of Andy C's book:



Indeed!



To bang your bloody heads together like an adult would do to children fighting in a playground!

Mike

Mike

Your post is very telling. What`s YOUR problem?

"Why on earth bother arguing with someone who is never going to agree"

well.......who knows...and in any case, it passes the time. It also seems to provide plenty to interest you , judging by the amount of time you have spent reading and posting here.

"You`re not the only guilty one here..."

Guilty of what? Are you a judge? (or some other superior creature ...)


"to bang your bloody heads together like children..."

Now now...no violence please

Interesting...so you see us as misbehaving children who ought to behave better.......


As Alex put it, are you a schoolmaster?


Your whole approach is hard to understand......you complain about postings , yet they seem to provide you with something to fill your time with. It seems that you are the one who has a problem with the thread so why don`t you just go and do something you would find more useful?..and let those who want to, waste their time arguing in circles, if they so choose




Or is it perhaps that you can use this thread as a vehicle to display your outstanding wit and superiority

laurie

To be fair to RKR the rip he used does have distortion.

Paul
I do enjoy your jokes, Paul.

Laurie you've been told once already. Michael has retired from this discussion. As Markus said either we put the thread back on track or we close it. These discussions like certain others have been done to death, and almost everyone knows where they stand. Anymore completely off topic posting and arguments about arguments will lead to us locking it.
Richard (moderating)


Kasperhauser, if I was in your position, I'd have a separate spur simply because I could. It would make sense in your posisiton.

Kasperhauser, if I was in your position, I'd have a separate spur simply because I could.

Cheers, that seems to be the consensus. I suppose that means I need to decide where the system will be located. Hmm. Thankfully (?) two entire walls in the main living area are all windows, so that makes the choice a bit easier.

Thanks all.

Anymore completely off topic posting and arguments about arguments will lead to us locking it.
Richard (moderating)



Why do my thread always get locked? :o

It’s not me, I’m not the trouble maker :D


Anyway, I don’t know whether one CU sounds better than another one. I don’t have time to “listen” to Consumer Units & Interconnects & Racks!!!! I’m just thankful for people like Roy who are daft (I mean dedicated) enough to do it, so we don’t have to. He is retired, so he has time.

I just know that every improvement Roy suggested seamed to add about a HiCap’s worth of space/clarity. Now considering the cost of a HiCap against Roy’s suggestions, it makes good sense to me.

Fatter cables, proper solid connections, hard-wiring…..it’s not difficult to see how the impedance might drop over a Plug in a Switched Socket.

I’m happy with it. Thanks again Roy!

I'd have a dedicated 20 Amp circuit installed for the hi-fi. Make sure you have a 200 Amp service to the home.

...and buy a fifty buck Wiremold powerstrip from your Naim dealer. A month or so after you're familiar with the sound, try moving the breaker to the other phase and and see which phase sounds better. Your electrician can show you how to do this easily and safely.

...job done.

Can anyone with RKR installs tell me if they have noticed a perceptible drop in hiss produced while an amp is idling? (No preamp volume)... I am not interested in any claimed musical benefits but anything that drops the ambient noise floor even by a small degree is worthwhile.

Laurie, Michael has retired from the discussion.

Mains discussions are tiresome enough (we've only had them about 200 times I believe) without metadiscussions about why the discussion is pointless or not, and meta-metadiscussions about the style of the metadiscussion.

Either this thread goes back on topic or it will be closed.

Markus - moderating

I cannot disagree, though my point remains, viz I cannot understand the objections of those who complain about it.......they are free to simply do something else.....that seems logical to me

PS

... to quote: "The lion betrays itself by its claw....." (Referring to Sir Isaac Newton who tried to disguise his true identity but was immediately recognisedby his brilliant style of mathematical analysis)

Here I refer to Mike Stock, whose inimitable style of posting brings to mind another famous individual (on several forums) ....do we have here a case of mistaken identity?........the word "troll" springs to mind

laurie

I'd have a dedicated 20 Amp circuit installed for the hi-fi. Make sure you have a 200 Amp service to the home.

If you are taking what RKR has done for the UK to the USA, I would have a 20+ amp circuit PER piece of hifi and terminate each with a wattgate (no plugs or extra contacts) straight into each piece of HiFi... If they do larger than 20 Amps use the largest available with corresponding ampage cable to each wattgate. I spoke with Roy about this last night and he has 70+ people around the globe, not just UK who are doing this and finding benefit. Even places with spurts only like USA and europe.

"The lion betrays itself by its claw....."


Here I refer to Mike Stock, whose inimitable style of posting brings to mind another famous individual (on several forums) ....do we have here a case of mistaken identity?........the word "troll" springs to mind
Hi Laurie,

I was thinking exactly the same.

Hi Laurie,

I was thinking exactly the same.



Are we thinking of the same individual??? I wonder?

laurie

PM.

I think ultimately and from a male perspective Kasp if you are fitting electric's from scratch obviously go for the phattest one available.

obviously go for the phattest one available.

whoa yeeeeeah.
http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/9603/jaynodpr5.gif

Can anyone with RKR installs tell me if they have noticed a perceptible drop in hiss produced while an amp is idling? (No preamp volume)... I am not interested in any claimed musical benefits but anything that drops the ambient noise floor even by a small degree is worthwhile.


Can’t say I’ve noticed. Wouldn’t that sort of hiss have more to do with the components? A worn capacitor or something??

I will switch over to my old MusicWorks block into ring socket at the weekend to do an A/B.

Dear Fox,

People are too busy slanging each other to address your interesting plight. You don't mention which input (phono?) you get this hiss on. If it's many inputs, there's a major mismatch somewhere. If just phono (direct from cart to pre?), it's the paucity of output from your cart, or lack of sensitivity in your pre. Dedicated mains a la RKR or whatever is probably only going to exacerbate a mismatch, I'm afraid to say. More details needed, I think, for those helpful PFM evangelists to diagnose your problem and offer solutions.

I don't have a plight -- far less a problem but I thought I'd ask as many seem to have quite hissy setups to me when idling/muted. I'm talking about the hiss from speakers when (say a Naim Power amp is on) -- irrespective of input.

What I'm thinking of is generally very low-level and sub audible at listening positions (you need to stick your ears near speaker to hear it) but that is the sort of thing I'd probably find more useful than anything else.

Could there be a snake behind them?

Darren

Could there be a snake behind them?

Darren


Just get your coat! ;)

Could there be a snake behind them?

Darren

You mean snaic, surely.

You mean snaic, surely.


OK, I'll do it. Snake.....Hiss.......

Didn't you see the Tumble Weed?

I'm serious, my ANe's were plagued by a faint humming sound - got RKR in and he discovered an umpa lumpa lodged in the bass port

KP - a snaic indeed!!!

Darren

Didn't you see the Tumble Weed?
I heard crickets.

quite hissy setups

I suggest you start a new thread "taking the hiss out of my speakers..." my system is just the same, hiss wise, before and after...

Neweniair (if spelt correctly) was the place I got the 10mm flex from Fox use the code I gave you to get the cable... It is aright pain to fit to the wattgates though... maybe 6mm is the better choice and is still 48 amp cable :D

If you are taking what RKR has done for the UK to the USA, I would have a 20+ amp circuit PER piece of hifi and terminate each with a wattgate (no plugs or extra contacts) straight into each piece of HiFi... If they do larger than 20 Amps use the largest available with corresponding ampage cable to each wattgate. I spoke with Roy about this last night and he has 70+ people around the globe, not just UK who are doing this and finding benefit. Even places with spurts only like USA and europe.


John,

FWIW, every multiple line install I've been involved with here in the US sounded slightly worse than its single-line counterpart. Most of the installs were all Linn or Naim components or hybrids of both. There seems to be a trade-off between less IM(?) distortion w/multiple lines vs. "my records are all over the floor and I'm not going to work tomorrow so I can stay home and spin more disks" with a single line. To be honest, I have heard that unequal lengths (especially concerning the ground wire) between lines may contribute to these findings but I have yet to hear an install where this was attended to.

Like anything else I'm sure there are exceptions as well. If nothing else, having your electrician install multiple lines during one service call is cheaper from a labor standpoint vs. getting him back out should the What-If Demon starts nagging;-)



just my two cents;-)

dave

hi,could someone please tell me which mcb roy k recommends is it 32 amp or 45 amp. thanks

hi,could someone please tell me which mcb roy k recommends is it 32 amp or 45 amp. thanks

Haven't you heard?

Roy's gone nuclear. He picked up a second hand reactor and has installed it in his shed. The Hi-Fi is also in the shed, directly connected to the main turbine, thus eliminating each and every fuse in the chain. He has approx 500 MW on tap, but hopes to double this as it will obviously sound twice as good. An added bonus is that the neighbours no longer complain about the racket from his Hi-Fi - at last, a positive benefit of radiation poisoning.

Mr Tibbs

151- it depends on wire sizes and how the wire is mounted (surface or enclosed). 6mm2 wire allows up to a 32A MCB; 10mm2 can be allowed a 45A MCB - both when surface-mounted IIRC. Check with your sparky or the current IEE regs (BS7671)

Dont' worry too much about the current rating though, because a Type B MCB (normal for domestic use) will allow transients of 10x the rating to pass for very short periods; that's a huge amount of energy. Just ensure the MCB rating is appropriate to the wire size and install condition you are using.


Tibbsy - My current project has a dual-mono supplies, that's two 1MVA transformers and everything ;)

hello martin,i will be puting 3 runs of 10mm under the floor boards,sorry i should have said.

151

I use 32amp MCBOs for my 6 x 10mm radials; my friend also does in his similar set-up, and both were directly influenced by RKR who, I believe, uses the same. I suppose more is better, but 45amp? unnecessary overkill, maybe.

Six 10mm radials :o

No wonder the price of copper has gone through the fecking roof.

Mr Tibbs

Someone proudly boasted that they are using Siemens Sitor fuses 16A 322Vac recently. I cant find the post here or at the other place, but hey the Find function there suffers from amnesia, making the source of the post nicely ambiguous.

The Seimens website is like virtual quicksand so the only useful info I got was that there are two form factors; the 'standard', meant for a non-household busbar or mounting frame, and the 'cylindrical', meant for standard cylindrical holders.

Any one had any experience with these?

Thanks,
David

hi,could someone please tell me which mcb roy k recommends is it 32 amp or 45 amp. thanks

I don't know which Roy recommends, however I seriously doubt any audible difference between them. MCB's have closed mechanical contacts and the thermal components in 32A and 40A (is there a 45A MEM MCB?) are very similar, but calibrated slightly differently. The magnetic components are also very similar and it's unlikely they will affect the sound.

I would strongly recommend that any DIY mains-circuits are inspected, verified (and tested!) by a competant electrician with appropriate instruments. The lives of members of the family are, after all, priceless.

Following the preaching of RKR, I have recently installed a dedicated mains set-up for my hi-fi in Canada. I have not as yet installed a separate consumer unit, but I have run 10.2 gauge ‘dryer’ cable from 2x30amp breakers to terminate in 2x Hubbell 4-plex hospital-grade sockets. Immediately I am impressed with the results; delivery is more robust with a soundstage wider, deeper and higher while also seeming more centred and focussed. Perception of improvement was immediate on installation some three weeks ago, but there seems to be continuing build of improvement as the cable burns-in, which has been augmented by the installation of 20amp fuses in amps and power-supply. Next stage will be a dedicated consumer unit.

Hi TonyH
To right - IT WORKS.
I've been delighted with my system after installing Roy's dedicated mains for the hifi - the Full Monty version. Now it is working to the potential I had always hoped for and sounding absolutely wonderful, I've not even thought about changing anything or any part of the system, I just buy more and more music.
If you are able, do clean and polish the primary house fuse and its holder. It was astonishing what cleaning this fuse did with my systems performance. Everything I played sounded incredably better afterwards.

d

So is this a "simple" case of
1. getting one of these "garage" CU units that seem to take a couple of MCB's
2. taking my existing "hifi" mains socket out of the ring main circuit
3. connecting the "garage" CU to the "hifi" socket with new mains cable (i'm guessing the return back to CU is not required, so it's a radial not a ring.
4. most important - getting all the above installed properly by an electrician
I've crawled around in the loft and that's how I think it can be done, is this correct?
We will be getting the mid 1970's fuse board swapped out for a CU at some point in the near future.
thanks, Robert

So is this a "simple" case of
1. getting one of these "garage" CU units that seem to take a couple of MCB's
2. taking my existing "hifi" mains socket out of the ring main circuit
3. connecting the "garage" CU to the "hifi" socket with new mains cable (i'm guessing the return back to CU is not required, so it's a radial not a ring.
4. most important - getting all the above installed properly by an electrician
I've crawled around in the loft and that's how I think it can be done, is this correct?
We will be getting the mid 1970's fuse board swapped out for a CU at some point in the near future.
thanks, Robert


Hi Robert,

As one who has also embraced RKR's mains philosophy (albeit not completely, as to install his preferred CU was not possible here in Oz), perhaps I can throw in my 2c worth.

First, don't waste your time doing anything until you've replaced that old fuse board with a CU! :)

Second, Roy, is an extremely helpful guy so if you have any Qs ... I am sure he will take the time to answer them. He researched several brands of CU & MCBs and recommends "Memera" brand. I couldn't fit a Memera CU but he shipped me 3 x Memera MCBs, an RCD "safety switch" and one of his silver-plated copper '+' busses which connects all the MCBs together on the '+ve' side. So, in terms of the hifi circuits, I have all-but-the-main-switch directly according to his specification. :)

Third, in relation to the above, Roy's research showed that larger MCBs sounded better - so use at least 32a MCBs rather than just 20a. At the same time, the appropriately-sized (thicker) mains-cable is also better - so if you want just a single run to your "hifi socket", use a 64a MCB and (I think) 10mm^2 cable. :o

However, Roy recommends multiple mains cable runs - ideally, one for each component and all the same length (so the earth potential drop along all the cables is identical). Again, I couldn't do this (in a retrospective-fit situation), so I have 3 x 32a hifi radial circuits - one for the power amps, one for analogue source and one for digital source.

Fourth, in relation to the above, doing your points 1, 2 & 3 will certainly improve the power supply to your hifi system but the "ultimate" setup is to install a Memera CU as the main (and only) CU in the house. At the same time, upgrading the wires from your street into the CU to 100a (if they aren't that already) is a good thing to do.

Good luck - IMO it's certainly a worthwhile exercise and I'm grateful to Roy to championing this concept (in the face of an army of nay-sayers!).

Regards,

Andy

First, don't waste your time doing anything until you've replaced that old fuse board with a CU!




May I ask for your evidence/rationale on this particular statement?

Simon F

Recently finished my building project (well nearly ....).
Took the opportunity to fit 5 x 10mm spurs.
In an evolutionary manner moved from Ring to Single Spur on existing CU, Single Spur on new Memera, Multiple Spur on new Memera.
In my view and the Mrs's view there is quite a difference between all three options.
I'm not sure whether I prefer the Multiple Spur over the Single Spur though as the Multiple Spur seems to loose a bit of focus. I'll have a play now that it's winter and see what ends up best (for me).
So, if building a new room etc. and you're keen to experiment, I'd lay in a Spur or 2, just for fun. It doesn't cost much and you can entertain your friends (who will think you're nuts). You don't have to use it if you think it's no better than the ring, .... but you could.
Certainly haven't been tempted to go back to the Ring.

Y

May I ask for your evidence/rationale on this particular statement?

Simon F


Aha, hi Simon ... I see you seem to have a Benz cartridge on your LP12 so, rather than making a derogatory comment about why you feel the need to ask me that Q, I'll respond politely (as any other LP12 owner who has the nous to step outside the standard recommendations of Linn dealers is automatically "a friend of mine"! :) ).

I guess my rationale is along the following lines (after much correspondence with RKR):
1. There are substantial differences between different brands of CU/MCB (Roy tested 6, giving 6 weeks "running in" time for each).
2. Higher-amp MCBs sound better than smaller ones. But these require thicker mains cable.
3. The main CU On/Off switch impacts the sound, as do the MCBs and the RCD.
4. Therefore, if you have an old-style fuse unit, you will have an old On/Off switch. So taking a wire - even a thick/high amperage wire - from a fuse in the fuse box to a Memera "mini-me CU" just for your hifi, will compromise the sound.

Regards,

Andy

Thanks Andy,
fair answer!
I have an old house with 4 old syle fuse boxes in the cellar. You can imagine the number of wires knocking around the boxes in a cellar of a 160 year old house.
I took a 10mm spur off one of the fuse boxes and used a 30 amp fuse. The improvement was great from the day I did it about 2 years ago. I can see your rationale but I cannot believe it would be worth my while messing around further - I'm happy!
As for the Benz - it was a no brainer having got it from Singapore for less than half the UK rrp.

Simon F

Thanks Andy, fair answer!

I can see your rationale but I cannot believe it would be worth my while messing around further - I'm happy!

Simon F


Hi Simon,

Most of what Roy says some people consign to the "Peter Belt" rubbish bin! :) However, all I can say is ... AFAIAC, he is right on the money! :) So, although it's hard to believe, I suggest you will actually hear an improvement if you get a new mains feed from the street and install a Memera CU. But, yes, this can be a big expense. In my extensive house renovations last year, replacing a few components in the CU and pulling through 2x32a cables in place of the original 20a hifi line was relatively simple but it would've cost thousands to pull multiple wires through to my power amps or upgrade the main feed in from the street, so I had to let those ideas go! :(

One point; it is worth "rearranging" the order of the fuses/MCBs in your fuse box/CU so that the hifi circuit(s) is/are closest to the On/Off switch or RCD ... and the "noisiest" circuits (with things like fridges, thermostatically-controlled heaters or washing m/cs) are furthest away.

BTW, have you seen my "ad" under Trade Announcements for a CF-composite replacement for your LP12 steel subchassis? Makes a major improvement!! :D

Regards,

Andy

Thanks Andy'
I'll look at the fuse box but I do know that the only other things attached to that particular fuse box are the cellar lights which are rarely on and the garden lights.
My LP12 is an early one; I think it was the second oldest on the forum when there was a thread re serial numbers a year or two ago. It had mods up to the Valhalla/Trampolin and then I added a Lingo last year. I have never messed around with the chassis. Can't be arsed to faff around I guess. What's the cost and where are you?

Simon F

Simon, it sounds like having a modern consumer unit with MCB / RCDs might be a good idea from a safety perspective, whatever the sonic benefits. When we moved into our 150 year old home, spurred on by concerns about the existing electrical protection, I put in a Memera CU and multiple 10mm2 wires. RKR provided generous guidance in his inimitable style. I thought the sonic improvement was well worth the effort and was bigger than any box upgrade I’ve done. It also alleviated many of the stereotypical weaknesses of a Naim olive system that box upgrades hadn’t significantly changed.

After a few months I tried one spur and a DIY hydra arrangement for a few weeks. Single and multiple spurs have slightly different sounds and I can understand how both have their supporters. I preferred the multiple spur in my set-up: a bigger scale sound at the expense of slightly less speed.

Duncan, I've not been blown up yet and the fuses seem to provide fair protection! My counter to your comments would be that you presumably never heard your system with a dedicated spur off the fuse box? I am very happy with the improvement I got for about an hour's work. I use a single spur with a Musicworks block. I daresay I could go further but I honestly don't believe the improvement could ever be cost/labour effective.

Simon

Thanks Andy,

My LP12 is an early one; I think it was the second oldest on the forum when there was a thread re serial numbers a year or two ago. It had mods up to the Valhalla/Trampolin and then I added a Lingo last year. I have never messed around with the chassis. Can't be arsed to faff around I guess. What's the cost and where are you?

Simon F


Hi Simon,

Please email me at: redwood dot andrew at gmail dot com

I'm 8,000 miles directly opposite you, on the other side of the globe! :) Melbourne, Oz.

Regards,

Andy

Simon,

you're right about not making the comparison. However, my primary motive was safety: I wanted to replace an antique consumer unit and have trip (MCB and RCD where appropriate) rather than fuse protection. I would have done so even if there had been a sonic cost over fuses. I'm guessing that the chances of me being blown up by my previous electrics were small, but I am happy to have made them smaller.

That there appears to be a sonic benefit is a pleasant bonus. The other improvements were as RKR predicted, so I'm happy to take his word on this one.

Hi Robert,

As one who has also embraced RKR's mains philosophy (albeit not completely, as to install his preferred CU was not possible here in Oz), perhaps I can throw in my 2c worth.

First, don't waste your time doing anything until you've replaced that old fuse board with a CU! :)

Second, Roy, is an extremely helpful guy so if you have any Qs ... I am sure he will take the time to answer them. He researched several brands of CU & MCBs and recommends "Memera" brand. I couldn't fit a Memera CU but he shipped me 3 x Memera MCBs, an RCD "safety switch" and one of his silver-plated copper '+' busses which connects all the MCBs together on the '+ve' side. So, in terms of the hifi circuits, I have all-but-the-main-switch directly according to his specification. :)

Third, in relation to the above, Roy's research showed that larger MCBs sounded better - so use at least 32a MCBs rather than just 20a. At the same time, the appropriately-sized (thicker) mains-cable is also better - so if you want just a single run to your "hifi socket", use a 64a MCB and (I think) 10mm^2 cable. :o

However, Roy recommends multiple mains cable runs - ideally, one for each component and all the same length (so the earth potential drop along all the cables is identical). Again, I couldn't do this (in a retrospective-fit situation), so I have 3 x 32a hifi radial circuits - one for the power amps, one for analogue source and one for digital source.

Fourth, in relation to the above, doing your points 1, 2 & 3 will certainly improve the power supply to your hifi system but the "ultimate" setup is to install a Memera CU as the main (and only) CU in the house. At the same time, upgrading the wires from your street into the CU to 100a (if they aren't that already) is a good thing to do.

Good luck - IMO it's certainly a worthwhile exercise and I'm grateful to Roy to championing this concept (in the face of an army of nay-sayers!).

Regards,

Andy

Ah, thanks Andy - so if I read this correctly, I just need the one CU for the whole house, and use a dedicated MCB for the hifi socket. I'm not going to go for the all-out implementation of having a single socket per unit, I run everything from one socket feeding an Isotek box. It may not be perfect, but it's the "stealth" option - changing the wire that feeds the socket rather than adding more sockets and chasing cables into the wall etc etc.

A single CU I imagine will make for a simpler installation. I am waiting for an electrician's quote to come through for the work, the kitchen rewire comes first, then upgrading the board with a brand new CU. The electrician did talk about an alternative method, I didnt follow his acronyms, but everything should be explained in the quote. Whatever they were, they were £60 each and the inference was I would need more than 1.

Duncan, I've not been blown up yet and the fuses seem to provide fair protection! My counter to your comments would be that you presumably never heard your system with a dedicated spur off the fuse box? I am very happy with the improvement I got for about an hour's work. I use a single spur with a Musicworks block. I daresay I could go further but I honestly don't believe the improvement could ever be cost/labour effective.

Simon

I used to have a musiworks block on a single spur, I sold it and it paid for the consumer unit upgrade and single spurs which was a big improvement on my original single spur/musicworks block.

Hello Strummer,
Thank you for your kind comments. I'm also grateful for your generous hospitality, provided and cooked by your "better half", a full English breakfast feast with all the trimmings - superb! I intend to be in the Liverpool / Cheshire region in November for 3 days and will hopefully be able to visit your home and have another listen to your system now the 12 weeks burn-in period has elapsed.

NB. If there is anyone in the vicinity of "The Wirral" and South Liverpool who would be interested in me visiting them, then please contact me. If I have any time spare during these 3 days I will do my best to visit.
As always the Mains advice is totally free. I even have free gifts!
--------------------------------------------------------------
Gentlemen,
My sincere thanks to all the other Mains converts who have bravely contributed here, I'm indebted to you all.
There were times past when I seemed to be a lone voice on Hi-Fi Forums, advocating Dedicated Mains for Hi-Fi; I am in your dept and further encouraged to continue this work (crusade?), so other's may also enjoy the splendour of their Hi-Fi system performing to 90% + of its true potential, and not the normal (disappointing) potential of 30% - 40% when powered by the SHARED household domestic ring-main. Yes, it really is that low - in my experience.
If you own a £10,000 Hi-Fi system then that equates to £6000 wasted potential! If people say they are content with that situation then that's fine by me, but in my experience these folk will forever be changing equipment, hoping for improvement that's seldom realised. Mains is the fuel that powers the Hi-Fi, ignore the implications of this fact and you'll have a system performing below par.

A dedicated single 16mm2 T&E spur for the Hi-Fi, correctly installed, can allow a system to achieve around 70% of its potential, but again that would still represent £3000 wasted potential with a £10,000 system. So, would a Dedicated Mains installation normally costing between £60 and £900 now be viewed as a wise investment?
The Multiple spurs approach where every item of Hi-Fi has its own spur, and every spur length MUST be identical, has been the most successful approach - however because it reveals SO MUCH detail the equipment/system set-up becomes of paramount importance. Ignore this at your peril because inadequateses in system set-up are ruthlessly revealed. Just like a finely tuned racing car, when its right, the performance is stunning!

During the last 7 years I've had the privilege and honour of visiting over 90 homes so I do have some experience on which to base the above rating % figures.
I visited a home where the top-Naim system, all on Fraim, into BW802D was being powered by the SHARED domestic ring-main and via a Music-Audio type Mains block, reputedly costing over £500. So, about £60,000 worth of kit and I gave it a performance rating of 5 /10. The owner had thought his system better than this, but for the princely sum of 14p I was able to demonstrate and improve the Mains supply to this system, and then up the performance rating to 6 /10, much to the pleasure and astonishment of the owner and his wife. They heard the improvement!
This incident reminded me of another home I visited in Ewhurst, Surrey, (wonderful people) where again BW 802Ds were being used and driven by a system of CDS2/XPS2, 52, pair 135's, all with Memera 10mm2 T&E Multiple Spurs (of exact equal length), and 32A RCBO's with 100Amp primary house fuse. I gave that system a rating of 8.5- 9 /10. The music, detail and soundstage in that large room was so real, magnificent! Cost of this system is about 1/3rd of the £60,000 above, but twice as musical, enjoyable and satisfying.
---------------------------------------------------

I would make the comment that without having direct personal experience of whatever the subject matter, forming a basis of conclusion is just pure conjecture and speculation. And like Black Adder's broken pencil - "pointless"

In reply to Lee Bunker's speculation regarding MCBs - " I don't know which Roy recommends, however I seriously doubt any audible difference between them. " I found this speculation to be wrong. I've spent about £500 on 6 different brands of domestic Consumer units with their associated breakers and RCDs and found there was a massive sonic difference between the worst and the best. When I disassembled each of the 6 branded MCBs engineering and construction quality differences were obvious.
As mentioned above I have only tried 6 Brands of Consumer Units and their associated MCBs and RCDs, and these took 36 weeks to evaluate (I allotted 6 weeks burn-in for each). These are rated in this sonic order from worse to best - Clipsal, Contactum, Wylex, Crabtree, MK and Memera. When I talk about the Memera being the best sonically, I am not inferring that it has a sonic gain or merit, what I am saying is that this unit DEGRADED the sound the least. The other C.U's degraded the sound more-so.
Now there may be a sonically better Brand of Consumer Unit than Memera, but I'd had enough after 36 weeks of testing and £500 expense, and at least I know my "Best C.U." recommendation is not a complete "duffen", being the best of 6 tested. The whole approach to achieving the best Mains supply for the Hi-Fi is to keep the losses and degradation to the absolute minimum.
UPDATE July 2003 -MEMERA also betters the TENBY and PROTEUS brands of C.U. and MCBs for Hi-Fi, as related to me by a qualified installation Electrician, who did his own independent experiments and listening tests - so Memera is now rated the "Best" of 8 Consumer Units for Hi-Fi purposes!
----------------------------------------------

Anyone interested in the FREE 5Mb of Dedicated Mains for Hi-Fi documents please contact me. My e-mail account is included with my profile details.
Over 2000 people have requested these Mains documents, and I know over 800 have implemented some or all of the ideas. Currently I'm still receiving requests for these documents at 10 to 20 per month. I'll attempt to answer any additional questions you may have as quickly as possible, but it may take a few days. Please remember there is only me here to answer these questions, so please be patient.

I seldom write to Hi-Fi Forums now, so if you made it this far:-
Best Regards
Roy

PS Andyr. Congratulations, you have certainly impressed me. Mains fundamentals were not your strongest subject when we started corresponding last year. You learnt the basics very quickly and now exhibit a knowledgeable firm understanding of the matter. I'm pleased that our 27 e-mails of text and diagrams proved a definite worthwhile investment of both our times. Well done - excellent!

Roy

Good to see you back, I hope you are well

M

I would also like to pass on my thanks to Roy, initially for his information and then his continued patience with my rather basic queries as I slowly swallowed the concepts.

I now have a dedicated Memera CU run from long meter tails and an extra earthing rod, with 5x 10mm T&E spurs to large junction boxes. It has certainly done no harm to the sound, especially running a thirsty Pass-Labs power amp. All for the price of some company's 1m mains lead. Bargain IMHO.

The electrician was a little amused though, as I was dictating the spec.

Ian

I've had the quote back from the electrician. £210 + vat to "replace existing with CU 30MA main switch and MCBs", or extra £180 + vat to "replace existing with CU 100MA time delay main switch and RCB protecting sockets". This must mean £60 x 3 as at the time of visiting he had said "they" were £60 each.
Can anyone decipher what this means? thanks, Robert

Hello Ladies & Gentlemen.

For your information.
On the Eaton website it says that the 'old' Mem Memera CU's have been discontinued as of May this year (look here:- http://www.eaton.com/ecm/idcplg?IdcService=GET_FILE&dID=307028
I will not be evaluating these new units. After 6 years of testing/evaluation and about £800 of costs, I'm just not prepared to “break” my system again and test the new items.
Existing stocks of the old recommended Memera units may still be available at Electrical Wholesalers for the next few months, and currently there are many second-hand Memera C.U.s, MCBs & RCBOs advertised on E-Bay. The Memera units I use and recommend for Dedicated Hi-Fi Mains Supplies, were the best from 8 Brands tested and I'm not going to upset my Hi-Fi system again for many weeks/months while waiting for any new installed items to Burn-In. Other people can do these evaluations/tests at their own expense if they so wish.
Reading between the lines, my own interpretation of Eaton’s publication/announcement is that are going to reduce the build quality in favour of something cheaper, so they will compete on price with the other brands- and that is really bad news for anyone wanting to install Dedicated Mains for their Hi-Fi. I can purchase the cheaper brands of 32A MCBs (breakers) from Wylex, MK, Contactum, e.t.c, for under £3.75, but the Memera 32A MCBs cost £7.50. If powering an electric kettle, toaster or electric blanket any branded item of electrical protection will probably do the job, BUT when it comes to powering a decent Hi-Fi system there are definite audible differences. When I've opened-up the various MCBs to inspect the internals, the Memera was better engineered in all aspects, and sonically it is better - i.e. there is less degradation. However, the higher quality components and better construction has implications with higher unit cost.

I'll post this same info' in the D.I.Y section

Best regards
Roy

Shame, do you known if there is still a supply of Memera MCBs? I over-tightened a couple and need replacements.

Ditto, will I be able to get any MCBs in future, or will they end up like and hens' teeth and Linn Troikas? (Or, at least, would other brands at least work in the Memera, i.e., are MCBs made to a standard pattern?)

Ditto, will I be able to get any MCBs in future, or will they end up like and hens' teeth and Linn Troikas? (Or, at least, would other brands at least work in the Memera, i.e., are MCBs made to a standard pattern?)
3kw in Cardif still stocks them and they appear on EBay regularly.

IMHO I think they will be future 'hen's teeth'.

(Or, at least, would other brands at least work in the Memera, i.e., are MCBs made to a standard pattern?)


Yes, MCBs are made to a standard fitting - so, basically, any MCBs fit in any board - but what Roy's research showed was that the Memera MCBs gave better sound than the other 5 makes he tested out.

Regards,

Andy

Yes, MCBs are made to a standard fitting - so, basically, any MCBs fit in any board .......
Regards,

Andy

Not completely true. If you read the FAQ-pdf from Eaton that Roy included in has last post above it says:

2. Will the existing range of Circuit Protection Devices fit into this new consumer unit?
The existing range of Circuit Protection Devices will not fit into the new consumer units, as the size profile is different.

So there are more things changing

-
Jabbr