There's probably a thread on this subject here somewhere, but I thought I'd ask a specific question and see if I get relevant replies!

If I had a reasonable condition (or even new) LP12 and wanted a high quality power supply, but didn't want the expense of the Lingo or Armageddon, what would be the alternatives. I'm thinking up to £500 and less than the size of an Armageddon.

Thanks for looking.

I am very happy with my Hercules II. It's an improvement to the old Valhalla and has 45 rpm, too. AFAIK Stamford Audio sells it for around £150.

Herc or a DIY Geddon, which will cost £50ish.

You can build a DIY Geddon in an afternoon, too. There are 4 components in the box, inc transformer. Yes, really.

The Hercules II was a huge improvement over my DIY Geddon clone and the Valhalla.

For <£200 its a bargain.

I personally don't think that the Herc II is an obvious sonic improment over my late Zener Valhalla, However I recall that i sold my Valhalla for £125, the Herc cost me about £160 so it was a worthwile experiment for £30 as it is the same size and adds 45 rpm capability.

A Moth Flutterbuster coupled to a Linn Basik is a fairly good combination. You need to fit an IEC female socket to the Linn power lead instead of a standard wall plug to connect to the Flutterbuster output.
If the flutterbuster ever goes bad and needs repair, or modding, you can simply plug a standard IEC kettle lead into this IEC socket and just use the Linn/Basik at 33 rpm until the work is done. I (very) happily used my Basik like this for months when i needd to repair my Flutterbuster.

I prefer onboard power supplies ( ( e.g. Basik/Val/Herc) as I don't have much space and it cuts down on the external box count.

heed orbit, job done :)

If you're willing to spend up tp £500 why not a second hand Lingo? You can get the early version for under £400 and I picked up a Mk II (which was a real improvement to my ears) for £500

Shameless plug to a DIY 'geddon for sale ...http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=50999

Herc or a DIY Geddon, which will cost £50ish.

A DIY Geddon will cost more that £50 to put together if you do it to the Naim spec, the Traffo used is a 540VA special screened/sheilded affair between the primary and secondary windings, and for the principal to work this "MUST" be employed or you may as well not bother.

You can get these Traffos to special order as a friend on mine has done but they are not cheap, his was around £80-90, then you need a case £30-40, and a switch £5 and the resistors and caps £10, and the mains IEC connector £1.50, and the cable from the Geddon to the LP12 £10, so the total is around £140-150, still a considerable saving though, or just go for the Hecules, I have never tried one, but I have read good reports on its performance and as it has been suggested you do get 45rpm if this is important.
Paul

Why does the transformer for the geddon have to be so big?
is it a sound thing ?, surly the motor doesent need that much current to start it does it?

anyone tried a smaller one?

You should try the size/weight of the transformer in the Norton.

What about this for a speed controller ?

http://adhesive-tape.globalspec.com/FeaturedProducts/Detail/LuminaryMicro/Stellaris_Motor_Control_Modules/64273/0

nice speed controller but it doesnt do ac synchronous biphase drive.

that said a pic controller into a stereo power amp should be doable as a diy lingo.

Why does the transformer for the geddon have to be so big?
is it a sound thing ?, surly the motor doesent need that much current to start it does it?
anyone tried a smaller one?

Alan the reason the Traffo VA rating is so large is for the improved regulation it would offer, probably in the order of 2-3%, so minimal voltage/current fluctuation and therefore stability for the motor, and no the motor will not draw excessive current at all.
Paul

the bullshit that surrounds the armageddon is truly amazing.

speed stability (and speed ) is determined by the FREQUENCY that is delivered by the psu.

the armageddon has absolutely no control over this.

You could make a transformer the size of Norwich and it would still be at the mercy of whatever frequency mains is being delivered to your house.

torque will be effected by the output impedance presented by the psu. so the armageddon is very good at maintaining the incorrect speed under load.

also the armageddon is a single phase supply using a capacitor to botch an attempt at a second phase (a la valhalla).

Not a fan then David ;)

if am just seriously envious of naims ability to charge mega bucks for a transformer in a box.

they must know where the pixie dust is mined.

(oh hang on though its a really special transformer)

The Avondale TAPS is very good. I don't know whether LesW still makes them but you could ask him. See the Avondale (http://www.avondaleaudio.com) website for contact details.

Alternatively, as he has published the circuit (it's somewhere on this forum) you could make one for less than £100.

if am just seriously envious of naims ability to charge mega bucks for a transformer in a box.
they must know where the pixie dust is mined.
(oh hang on though its a really special transformer)

David please don't have a dig at me, I wear the very same hat-titude and share the same opinions as your good self, I am a complete sceptic when it comes to all this hype and sales pitch about special this and special that, I built my own Geddon and "no" I did not buy a screened/sheilded transformer, as I said in my previous post this is what a friend has done, I have a huge 500VA traffo in a case with the Valhalla board sat alongside it with a switch to select between the 2 options, why?? because I had all the bits to make it and like you I spit feathers at the very thought of paying through the nose for something that costs a few quid to source.
I have built all my own amps, pre-amps and speakers from the early 80's and will continue to do so, I work in the audio industry and see on a daily basis the kind of mark-up that exists on goods, this " Gready Western Society " we live in unfortunately. When I post and use adjectives like "special" transformer I make reference to the Naim Armaggedon spec and nothing more, what makes it "special" I have no idea other than the screen/sheild between windings, and maybe you can advise me what implication this has on the overall preformance if any ??

Paul

Paul,

Have you heard the real McCoy 'Geddon vs Hercules II? I have one of the former driving my LP12, but would really like to reduce my box count. Oh, and having 45rpm would be great too, even if its only for a handful of records.

James

The Avondale TAPS is very good. I don't know whether LesW still makes them but you could ask him. See the Avondale (http://www.avondaleaudio.com) website for contact details.

Alternatively, as he has published the circuit (it's somewhere on this forum) you could make one for less than £100.

I vote for a TAPS too. I have a DIY one, the cct is available have a search on PFM. To my ears it is better than the Vahalla it replaced and better than my mate's DIY Geddon.

James, the real McCoy ??? elaborate please ! I have often sonsidered ditching my DIY Geddon for the Hercules II for the very same reason as you, not so much box count, but the hassle of adaptor pulley swap, I too have some classic 12" 45rpm that never get an airing and I would love to have the ease of flicking a switch, oh! and before anyone suggests it I don't want a Lenco, as good as they may be :D
James have you done any listening comparisons between the Geddon and Herc II ?? and if so anything to share ?
Paul

G'wan Paul, buy a Lenco.:D:p

James, the real McCoy ??? elaborate please ! I have often sonsidered ditching my DIY Geddon for the Hercules II for the very same reason as you, not so much box count, but the hassle of adaptor pulley swap, I too have some classic 12" 45rpm that never get an airing and I would love to have the ease of flicking a switch, oh! and before anyone suggests it I don't want a Lenco, as good as they may be :D
James have you done any listening comparisons between the Geddon and Herc II ?? and if so anything to share ?
Paul
Paul,

By the real McCoy, I meant a Naim 'Geddon. I haven't heard anything else, other than the original Valhalla that my deck came with. I was hoping for someone to tell me the HercII wipes the floor with the 'Geddon.

James

James,

Never tried a Lingo?

Never tried a Lingo?
Regretably, no. When I had a Naim system, I understood I needed to faff around with the earthing to avoid hum and so have not considered looking for one. I don't know if that is now an issue with my Densen system. I guess not. Still, the Lingo is another box, and I really prefer the simplicity of an on-board PSU.

James

James,

I'll be surprised any of *on-board* PSU would better either 'Geddon or Lingo.

I use an old Lingo 1 but filter removed with a Naim system. You'll probably like a Lingo 2. ( I know it's another box )

Lingo (1) is vastly superior to the Valhalla (voltage & frequency controlled) & hence I would also expect the Hercules since it is based on the Valhalla. I'd be very surprised if the Naim Armageddon came close considering the component count inside it.... I'm a bit shocked that it is that simple.

Many seem to think the current Lingo is even better but can't comment, how much better over the original is another matter. For me it would need to be easily noticable given the price difference of a new lingo over a s/h old original.

There seems to be an advantage in removing the power supply from inside the LP12. I had this demonstrated to me many years ago and I don't see any extra shielding in place today.

An externally mounted Hercules should be an interesting exersise perhaps...

Not sure what voltage the 'geddon drives the motor at, but if you hold and manually rotate the pulley whist it's connected, the "cogging" as the rotor catches each new pole is very gentle with the 'geddon, unlike the valhalla.

I'd be very surprised if the Naim Armageddon came close considering the component count inside it.... I'm a bit shocked that it is that simple.
The proof is always in the pudding, and the 'Geddon flavoured LP12 was vastly better than Valhalla. Better ease, flow, and just so natural.

James

Paul,
By the real McCoy, I meant a Naim 'Geddon. I haven't heard anything else, other than the original Valhalla that my deck came with. I was hoping for someone to tell me the HercII wipes the floor with the 'Geddon.
James

Doh :( oh "that" real McCoy, now how stupid do I feel ? please send your answers on a postcard to...........................:D

Geddon Vs Valhalla, as I said in a previous post I have made my own Geddon and it shares a common case with the original Valhalla board, I can switch directly between the 2 supplies without the arm skipping across the LP, it used to at one time but I cured this with a few minor tweaks.

I nearly always listen to my vinyl using the Geddon it just sounds more natural and open, the LF appears to have better control and the imaging also appears to be further outside the boxes, maybe I am being biased as I made the bloody thing ;) and I want it to sound better, couldn't give a toss really, I have both to play with whatever.
I am sure I have seen on the Bay a Herc II with a new motor for under £200, which I think has to make it an affordable option to the Valhalla and possibly my set-up!!
Paul

Many seem to think the current Lingo is even better but can't comment, how much better over the original is another matter. For me it would need to be easily noticable given the price difference of a new lingo over a s/h old original.
I've schlepped my filterless Lingo to my Linn dealer and did an AB with a Lingo 2.

Both PSU timed well, but the Lingo 2 had an edge over smoothness and it was more natural sounding. Comparatively, my Lingo is more in your face and rough around the edges.
My friend who was with me was clearly impressed.

Me, however, didn't think it was worth the difference considering the price of a new Lingo 2.
If the newer Lingo2 timed better then, I would have gone for it, but seeing that the difference was mainly refinement over my old Lingo, I passed.

If I didn't have the Lingo 1 already, then, I would be happy with the Lingo2.

Now.. if my Lingo 1 still had a power filter inside, the difference might have been bigger. ( Lingo 2 was in a stock form )

Are you talking about the input filter where the mains plugs in?

The proof is always in the pudding, and the 'Geddon flavoured LP12 was vastly better than Valhalla. Better ease, flow, and just so natural.

James

Being a Naim derived unit I would expect it to do things differently but in all honesty can you say it does ALL things better, including detail retrival?

Being a Naim derived unit I would expect it to do things differently but in all honesty can you say it does ALL things better, including detail retrival?
Detail? I can't say I missed anything compared with the Valhalla. However, when I changed the Ittok over to an ARO, I did miss the lowest registers.

James

There seems to be an advantage in removing the power supply from inside the LP12. I had this demonstrated to me many years ago and I don't see any extra shielding in place today.

Thje new 'Majik' power supply seems to be in a metal box of some kind.

Are you talking about the input filter where the mains plugs in?

Yep.

Not sure what voltage the 'geddon drives the motor at, but if you hold and manually rotate the pulley whist it's connected, the "cogging" as the rotor catches each new pole is very gentle with the 'geddon, unlike the valhalla.

That would be one sure reason why such a simple design steps above the Valhalla, less vibration. Whether it achieves 100% advantages is another matter since frequency & voltage control are delivered from the mains.

Yep.

Did someone edit my post? There seems to be a paragraph missing LOL.

Is it worth the hassle of removal? Does it really make that much difference?
I noticed plugging in a "special" power cord (ah yes cables) made it sound better, wierd but true.

Sorry.

I am guilty as charged as I hit edit button instead of reply. :x

I've written a longer reply to your original question, too. :(
Net, net, I wouldn't know how much better the filterless Lingo since I haven't ABed.

I don't use Linn's stock cord with the Lingo. Instead Naim's Tibia. ( the latter sounds more to my liking )

Sorry.

I am guilty as charged as I hit edit button instead of reply. :x



A slap on the wrist for that :p

What's more confusing is how do you have the rights to edit my post?

I've written a longer reply to your original question, too. :(



Get on with it then, let's hear it...... Detention for editing my post ;)

Darn...

How about a free get-out-of-jail card?

This thread's gone all weird. I specifically said I wasn't interested in either the Lingo or the Armageddon. Pay attention you lot!

Thanks for the replies anyway. Does anyone know whether the new Majik p/s is comparable to the Valhalla, or better? What about Funk, or do you need the complete overhaul?

What about Funk, or do you need the complete overhaul?


Yes, you can get just the Funk motor upgrade (without the rest of the kit) - but this is a DC motor & controller. So (like with the Origin Live DC motor kit) you end up with a completely different kettle'o'fish to your originally-AC powered LP12! :)

Regards,

Andy

Does that matter if it sounds good?

Does that matter if it sounds good?


If you're referencing my post immediately above (it's no more work to hit "Quote" than "Reply", mate) then of course no, it doesn't.

But whether it sounds "better" is the rub! Plenty of people prefer the AC motor.

Regards,

Andy

Thanks for the replies anyway. Does anyone know whether the new Majik p/s is comparable to the Valhalla, or better? What about Funk, or do you need the complete overhaul?

I believe the Majik psu is based on the basik power supply, so no it won't be as good as the Valhalla.

Darn...

How about a free get-out-of-jail card?

Only if you tell me how you managed to edit my post.

Does anyone know whether the new Majik p/s is comparable to the Valhalla, or better? What about Funk, or do you need the complete overhaul?

I picked up a new LP12 last week and asked my Linn dealers this specific question. In his view the Majik is definitly inferior to the Valhhalla by some margin. However many Valhallas are old and they do deteriorate with age. His suggestion for a low price ps was the Herkules II (although he did not sell it). According to him it is the same circuit as the Valhalla but with the added 45 speed ability.

Hans

Only if you tell me how you managed to edit my post.

Here's a clue (http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showgroups.php), p-S-f :)

Does anyone know whether the new Majik p/s is comparable to the Valhalla

Your best choice at the moment is a Herc 11.
Best to ask your dealer what’s in the Majic power supply but I suspect there wont be to much magic in it, odds on its just a basik supply in a box, it still only does 33.3 rpm so that tells you something :rolleyes:.

I cant believe that Linn cant build a simple electronic power supply for 33.3 and 45rpm without having to go to the extreme cost of a lingo. The herc11 costs about £170 and is really a Valhalla clone with and extra crystal for 45rpm is made in China for probably 1/3rd of the cost so why is that so difficult for Linn to achieve?

The Majik turntable to me seems aimed at giving you an entry level turntable (@£1995) and hoping you will go for all of the upgrades but at 1995 its over priced again for what’s on offer IMO of course, I would be embarrassed to say that I had paid £2000 for a turntable and I had to use that poxy adapter for 45rpm.

For me Linn should have put together a package with a better quality arm and cart and an electronic supply for 33.3 and 45rpm and a clear lid for the £2000 and made people think well yeh that’s not bad value for money, I think they could make a killing, and would probably even get owners of old LP12s to sell up and go for a new one, but as it is I think they are killing off their own customers.

Alan

I like the Valhalla with the Mr Tibbs voltage mods to the motor. Not sure if you can still do this with a Hercules though.

Here's a clue (http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showgroups.php), p-S-f :)

Thanks... thought might be a Moderator but couldn't find the relevant info from his member details.