View Full Version : Tannoy Monitor Golds


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Tony L
25-02-09, 01:23 AM
Ok, so there I am minding my own business browsing the fresh listings on eBay as usual, then BANG! I’ve bought a radiogram (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=320342948773) for 130 of my finest UK pounds. That was five days ago, I’ve spent the time since then thinking ‘no, they can’t be can they… I mean it’s worth the asking price just for the SME… I’m just not this lucky in life... they’ll just be some dumb Kef kit stuff or something like that…”. Then yesterday I was able to collect…

They are! They bloody are! 15” ones too!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3437/3308071073_9025d8a449_o.jpg

Really… they are!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3364/3308900146_bab0d4cfbd_o.jpg

And they sound bloody great.

Tony.

James Evans
25-02-09, 01:36 AM
Seriously good result there Tony (bastard, bastard, bastard ;-) )

So what speakers are you now selling off really cheaply again?

jimb0
25-02-09, 02:00 AM
You lucky, lucky bastard. That is all.

jaspert
25-02-09, 02:00 AM
Bloody hell! That's a serious score.
Congrats and I'm soooo.. envious.

I live in hope of striking some gold before i turn to dust.

Dev
25-02-09, 02:13 AM
We hate you!!! (with more passion than....):D.

Well done.

Pete MB&D
25-02-09, 02:36 AM
Hi, Tony

Nice one! I wounder how many people are typing "Radiogram" in to Ebay right now!


Pete

fatmarley
25-02-09, 02:37 AM
Mick p recons you make your own luck. I think this proves him wrong . . .


Tony, could you PM me six numbers between 1 and 49?

The Captain
25-02-09, 02:37 AM
thats amazing- well done indeed. so how do they sound?

andy831
25-02-09, 03:51 AM
thats amazing- well done indeed. so how do they sound?

Bunged in the middle of Tonys Lounge with no thoughts about placement connected to his amp by some scotchblock type connection.....bloody amazing....no other words will do

Tony L
25-02-09, 03:57 AM
They sound wonderful. Big, effortless, warm, yet very tight and agile. Anyone who claims the bottom couple of octaves don't matter is lying! I spent last night listening to them with crappy thin mains cable as speaker cable as that was all I could get into the screw terminals. I've since fitted a set of decent 4mm sockets / binding posts so I'm using my normal Mogami wire now. I also hadn't realised the two treble controls were set a bit strangely, I've now set them both to 'level'. They really are sounding bloody good.

The cabinets are home built using the Lancaster corner cab as the template, they are the same size, shape etc, but this guy really went the extra mile in construction.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3095/3308070593_4b2142e179_o.jpg

I now understand why they are so bloody heavy! Each panel is doubled up 3/4" marine ply, i.e. two layers. That is then covered with a sheet of aluminium (??? why?), then there is a latice of string attached to little hooks that holds loads of wadding. It's an exceptionally solid job, far, far more solid than real Lancaster cabs. They are on castors too, though that may change. I know real Tannoyistas don't like Lancaster cabs, they seem to be considered worst of breed, but these certainly sound really nice. I have no plans to change them anytime soon, though I will sort the grill out. It's a good ply frame, it just needs some nicer fabric.

Tony.

martin clark
25-02-09, 04:01 AM
Gasp.
Wow.

johnfromnorwich
25-02-09, 04:02 AM
I just never have that kind of luck! I paid full whack for mine but they're worth every penny. Enjoy.

jimb0
25-02-09, 04:07 AM
Wow. Don't bother changing them, just sort the fabric (Rob got some original Tannoy fabric recently didn't he?) and get some Tannoy badges: sorted!

Joe P
25-02-09, 04:22 AM
You pulled one helluva a Petrik there, Tony. (From now on, I think it should be called pulling a Lonorgan. That's an incredible deal you got.)

Congrats!

Joe

speedysteve1
25-02-09, 04:26 AM
Brilliant. Well done.

I listened to all sorts of speakers at the Bristol Hifi show (I know not really fair with some of their rooms) and coming home to my Tannoy's was the highlight of the day...

The Captain
25-02-09, 04:26 AM
they could sit nicely in front of Tony's, ahem.. 'lovely deco fireplace' there :-)

Uncle Ants
25-02-09, 04:53 AM
Nice one! I wounder how many people are typing "Radiogram" in to Ebay right now!

Tony, you lucky, lucky so and so.

What's really annoying is I actually do, do a search on Radiogram about once a week ... because I am looking for a nice radiogram ... this week I didn't :rolleyes:.

I can't pretend I'm not envious. How do they sound with the Quad kit it came with - presumably there was a 303 in that cabinet?

Dowser
25-02-09, 04:55 AM
Share the good fortune, I'll give you 50 for your Heresy's? :)

Well done, Richard

Patrick Dixon
25-02-09, 04:59 AM
Well done! Great find - as you say worth the money for the SME alone.

Have you got any photos of you collecting from Barnsley on your bike? Or did you get it back on the train?

John
25-02-09, 08:06 AM
Tony,

Congratulations on the great find. Good to see they found a good home.

Enjoy,
John

matt j
25-02-09, 08:18 AM
lucky bast. Well done.

Stunning speakers Tannoys, love mine.

DSJR
25-02-09, 08:38 AM
Well done Tony. I wish you many happy years with them!!!!!

What was the rest of it? SME? Thorens or Garrard? Don't tell me it's a TTS3000!!!!!!!!!

Oh yes, the amp too?

markt
25-02-09, 09:16 AM
All time mother load!

xduode
25-02-09, 09:38 AM
Bass when no bass lots of cabinet bass
got rid of mine in early 80s, nice with a vase of flowers on them
some pf man will take them off your hands ,get the cash and run
go well with garrard 401

NeilR
25-02-09, 09:42 AM
Fantastic result Tony,Well done!

Those cabs look pretty well made too.

Paul Dimaline
25-02-09, 10:24 AM
Nice one Tony, has the heart rate returned to normal yet!!

Tony L
25-02-09, 11:33 AM
What was the rest of it? SME? Thorens or Garrard? Don't tell me it's a TTS3000!!!!!!!!!

Oh yes, the amp too?

A very nice tidy SME 3009 S2 Improved, it's got a metal bearing so I'll probably swap it with the one on the 124, the cartridge was a Stanton, whichever is their equivalent of the Pickering XV15, it has some cheapo generic stylus. The amp is a Quad 33 / 303, the 303 looks to be in very nice condition indeed, I've just cleaned it up today. The 33 is a bit tatty. The tuner is a FM2, the tube one and looks like it will clean up pretty well. Turntable is a Thorens TD-150, surprisingly it's in it's original plinth. It has a nasty dustbug mark, but it's on the brushed alloy top plate so it might scrub off with some elbow-grease. A damn fine haul!

Bass when no bass lots of cabinet bass
got rid of mine in early 80s

You must have had yours in a poor cabinet or driven them with a naff amp as these turn on a sixpence! Bass is deep and tight and only there when it's meant to be. Did you have one of the 70s foam surround models in a flimsy box? If so trust me, these are very, very different!

Tony.

jackbarron
25-02-09, 11:40 AM
Yeah, nice speakers.

Looks like what might be a Rothko print on the wall as well.

Jack

Tony L
25-02-09, 11:42 AM
Nice one Tony, has the heart rate returned to normal yet!!

I actually feel relaxed now, I've been totally stressed out for the last 4 days as I feared someone would find the completed listing and attempt to 'gazump' me! I don't ever consider a sale is complete until I get it out of the seller's shop / house etc.

Tony.

Tony L
25-02-09, 11:43 AM
Looks like what might be a Rothko print on the wall as well.

It's real, but not a Rothko!

Tony.

trancera
25-02-09, 11:44 AM
Gulp. Close to 2K worth of gear, that's unbelievable. How could someone do such a thing! .. and the add says selling for a friend ?! what like they know how to use ebay ?! omg ...

Well done indeed Tony.

cooky1257
25-02-09, 11:57 AM
Well done Tony, excellent score you jammy git.

Joe P
25-02-09, 11:58 AM
Tony,

Are the alumin(i)um plates covering what would be ports if they weren't there?

Joe

P.S. A silverback gorilla will be very handy to have on hand when you position the speakers.

Tony L
25-02-09, 11:58 AM
Oh, there's a Technics dual cassette deck too!

Tony.

PS I'm going to hang onto the Tannoys (obviously!), the SME and the Quad 303 but I'll feed the rest out via the pfm charity room once I've cleaned it up and checked it's all functional, i.e. the 33, FM2, TD-150 and cassette deck can help protect some gorillas or something.

cooky1257
25-02-09, 12:00 PM
Oh, there's a Technics dual cassette deck too!

Tony.

PS I'm going to hang onto the Tannoys (obviously!), the SME and the Quad 303 but I'll feed the rest out via the pfm charity room once I've cleaned it up and checked it's all functional, i.e. the 33, FM2, TD-150 and cassette deck can help protect some gorillas or something.

That way you preserve your Karma man.

Tony L
25-02-09, 12:01 PM
Are the alumin(i)um plates covering what would be ports?

No, these cabs were built specifically for the 15" so they have no port cut-outs at all, plus the aluminium plates are on all internal surfaces, i.e. top, bottom, sides etc, the only area of reduced thickness (i.e. 'only' 3/4" ply) is the area of the baffle board the driver is bolted to, every other panel is getting on for 2" thick!

Tony.

Joe P
25-02-09, 12:05 PM
Tony,

You must have had yours in a poor cabinet or driven them with a naff amp as these turn on a sixpence! Bass is deep and tight and only there when it's meant to be. Did you have one of the 70s foam surround models in a flimsy box? If so trust me, these are very, very different!

Unless I'm remembering wrong from my immersion into Tannerdery, the Lancaster came in two versions -- corner and rectangular. And a Lancaster could come with either 12- or 15-inch Monitor Reds or Golds.

So, working through the combinations -- corner vs rectangular (two options), with either 12- or 15-inch drivers (two more options), either Red or Gold (two more options again) -- gives your eight official Lancaster designs.

I imagine they are all different, as would be the custom cabinets based on the corner Lancaster design that you have.

Joe

P.S. Wish you were closer. I'd love to hear other old Tannoys.

trancera
25-02-09, 12:21 PM
In that case Tony you should nick name the Tannoys the Gorillas.

I wonder if the Aluminium is for strength and vibration reduction, as per Johns Sole for the LP12? Materials with differing vibration frequencies cancelling each other out?

They certainly look very well built indeed, even the tied back filling is done very well.

Wonder if they beat originals, I think they might!

Jonathan Ribee
25-02-09, 12:28 PM
P.S. Wish you were closer. I'd love to hear other old Tannoys.

Joe

Oddly enough I've just returned from pfm HQ. I was greeted by...

"There has been a subtle change... ...see if you can spot it."

To use a concretism - veh veh nice!

Jonathan

Joe P
25-02-09, 12:31 PM
JR,

So, pretty good for legacy speakers?

Joe

Jonathan Ribee
25-02-09, 12:35 PM
Joe

Definitely some of the best loudspeakers I've heard. And I'm a panel nut. But then the driver does the coherent source bit - so you get your precision with your bass. Gotta be a good thing. The Brothers Turrentine obviously approved.

Jonathan

Joe P
25-02-09, 12:57 PM
That's the thing, JR.

It's as though we all (well, most of us) had had a collective lobotomy, forgetting what was once attainable decades ago.

Joe

NeilR
25-02-09, 01:08 PM
Joe,

Repeat the following sentence 100 times:

'Drive unit technology has improved incredibly over the last few years rendering older designs obsolete'

That should cure you.

hifi_dave
25-02-09, 01:26 PM
Now where have I read that before ?:rolleyes:

Uncle Ants
25-02-09, 01:28 PM
No, these cabs were built specifically for the 15" so they have no port cut-outs at all, plus the aluminium plates are on all internal surfaces, i.e. top, bottom, sides etc, the only area of reduced thickness (i.e. 'only' 3/4" ply) is the area of the baffle board the driver is bolted to, every other panel is getting on for 2" thick!

Big, big drivers in a big, big solid and unported cabinet designed for corner placement ... it doesn't sound like a recipe for disaster, does it?

sideshowbob
25-02-09, 02:04 PM
Has a feeling you'd end up with Tannoys one day, T :-)

ian walker
25-02-09, 02:21 PM
Bloodyell tone!They look f'kin ace...count me in for a listen.

e.

martin clark
25-02-09, 02:23 PM
Tony, I'd be interested in the FM2... I have an addiction to feed:

http://www.acoustica.org.uk/misc/AM2.jpg

jimb0
25-02-09, 02:25 PM
I propose a mass PFM field-trip to Lonergan towers to wreak karmic revenge by eating his biscuits and mucking with his cartridge azimuth.

Paul R
25-02-09, 03:03 PM
I have an addiction to feed:
I have a similar pair. Albeit neither worked last time I tried and the FM1 is the earlier less documented form. And I don't listen to the radio much. I also have one of these,

http://home.planet.nl/~meuls003/receivers/r-208.jpg

which worked last time it was fired up. I might have been a teenager then though.

Anyway, well scored Tony, I'm astonished that the vendor didn't do any elementary research.

Paul

stevec67
25-02-09, 03:10 PM
FM2 is nice. I foolishly missed one a friend had, he sold it for only 70. I can't complain though, a few years later he gave me a Troughline 3 as a thank you for helping him decorate. The Quad is nice but not a patch on the Leak.

That's a sensational haul Tony. You can play great music through TD150/33-303 and any half way decent speakers, add Tannoys and you have something to match the best modern gear for musical enjoyment.

The Captain
25-02-09, 03:20 PM
i reckon his mate might have scribbled down 1300 on a pad.. becoming 130.0.. i mean he must have been aware the value was vaguely several hundred min, at a most conservative estimate: a big bizarre mistake must've been.

Tony L
25-02-09, 03:44 PM
Tony, I'd be interested in the FM2... I have an addiction to feed:

Cool! I gave it a clean earlier and it's come up nice, though I've not powered it up yet. I'll take some pics of it tomorrow, I'd say it was a strong VG+, i.e. some signs of use, but it's still really nice. No scratches as such, just a slight 'glossing' of the matt finish where it's been handled. The only issue obvious at this stage is that it's captive mains lead has been cut short and is just bare wire, but for you that would be a five minute fix. The DIN signal lead is present and correct, it has what look to be a very nice set of Brimar tubes fitted. It also has it's original manual and service schematic. It can go to the Dian Fossey Gorilla Fund (http://www.gorillafund.org/).

Tony.

Tony L
25-02-09, 03:57 PM
i reckon his mate might have scribbled down 1300 on a pad.. becoming 130.0.. i mean he must have been aware the value was vaguely several hundred min, at a most conservative estimate: a big bizarre mistake must've been.

It was the son I collected from, not the lady who'd done the listing. He gave no indication whatsoever that he'd underpriced / made an error (and I certainly didn't point it out), though he seemed pleased that I was buying the speakers for myself rather than to sell on - they were the part his dad had actually made. Damn good job he did of it too.

Tony.

neiljadman
25-02-09, 04:08 PM
Congrats Tony - you lucky b*ugg*r.

I found a Nait lurking inside a $100 "Music Centre" once - but this takes the biscuit...

Neil

The Captain
25-02-09, 04:12 PM
well i guess its just daft people throwing things away then effectively.. tis odd though, i mean it hardy such a haul as yrs, but i scooped a 'townshend' hifi platform whatnot in my recycle centre.. '2 for that pls mate'.. fleabayed it asap: 165!

some daft buggers out there..

Tony L
25-02-09, 04:22 PM
well i guess its just daft people throwing things away then effectively.. tis odd though, i mean it hardy such a haul as yrs, but i scooped a 'townshend' hifi platform whatnot in my recycle centre.. '2 for that pls mate'.. fleabayed it asap: 165!

some daft buggers out there..

It's not 'daft' at all, just someone not understanding or having time to research what is in reality a truly specialist market - it's a family clearing a very large (and stunningly nice) house after a bereavement, plus doing so in a rush as they have a tenant lined up to move in who wants to rent the place unfurnished. When it is eventually my turn to face such a depressing situation I'm sure I'll make similar mistakes as my family are serious book geeks, an area I know utterly zilch about. There was a lot of nice old furniture there too that they are trying to shift. That's another area I know nothing about - if it's not vinyl, audio, guitars or vintage synths I know bugger all!

Tony.

Tony L
26-02-09, 02:09 AM
Martin, here's the FM2:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3655/3310567713_7462f803ba_o.jpg

I've only checked it powers up, which it does with absolutely no explosions, fire or anything else. I'd have to enter a whole world of wiring hell to fully establish it works as it's connections are different for both aerial and output to my system. It should be fine. Let me know if you fancy it.

Tony.

martin clark
26-02-09, 02:35 AM
Ah, innit cute. Yes please.

hifi_dave
26-02-09, 02:41 AM
They're really nice tuners. Performance-wise they are not very advanced but they have a nice solid, warm, friendly sound, far removed from the steely Japanese tuners and a million miles from DAB. Not only that but it looks good and British.

martin clark
26-02-09, 03:17 AM
Without wanting to de-rail the thread - Dave you should hear what the FM1 is capable of when fed a nice stable supply and with the output is properly buffered. This last bit is the key - the FM1 output is taken from the discriminator directly, and so if the design load (100Kohm IIRC) isn't met, then not only is de-emphasis completely wrong but the quality of the output is inherently distorted. Many got plugged into amps with , say 47K inputs and then sound...a bit duff.

But yes, it's the industrial design I'm a sucker for.

joel
26-02-09, 03:53 AM
They are! They bloody are! 15 ones too!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3437/3308071073_9025d8a449_o.jpg



Phwoaar. pilgrimage to PFM HQ required.

faz
26-02-09, 03:53 AM
I know real Tannoyistas don't like Lancaster cabs, they seem to be considered worst of breed, but these certainly sound really nice.
Tony.

I wonder why this is? Is it down to the Haden Boardman article in Hi-Fi World on Tannoys that was run in November 1998?

I'm looking to buy a pair of Lancasters soon but I did have a listen to a pair of Chatsworths. They just didn't sound as good to me as the Lancasters. Lacked a bit of detail.

James Evans
26-02-09, 04:01 AM
There's something about those bloody great big bolts holding the speakers in that appeals to me. "These speakers are not here to piss about" is what that says to me :)

Tony L
26-02-09, 04:04 AM
Thanks Martin, you'll need to send some cash to a gorilla and 9.30 to me for postage (it's surprisingly heavy, I don't think I'll be able to pack it under 4Kg) unless you fancy picking it up (IIRC there was some prospect of your coming up for a visit with Rob?).

Tony.

PS Joel, most welcome any time.

Tony L
26-02-09, 04:08 AM
There's something about those bloody great big bolts holding the speakers in that appeals to me. "These speakers are not here to piss about" is what that says to me :)

They really don't piss about - I've just played Joy Division's Atmosphere 12" at some volume which has proved that to me beyond all doubt! Sounds like a drum kit in the room.

Tony.

martin clark
26-02-09, 04:09 AM
Tony - many thanks - I'll take this up by PM, but yes, I'd like to collect :)

joel
26-02-09, 04:38 AM
PS Joel, most welcome any time.
Tony,
Will take you up on that. Possibly even this year!

James Evans
26-02-09, 04:38 AM
They really don't piss about - I've just played Joy Division's Atmosphere 12" at some volume which has proved that to me beyond all doubt! Sounds like a drum kit in the room.

Tony.

Crap, that's something that has got to be heard. I'm almost out the door and on the M53 :)

They're from the same school of speaker design that refers to your Harbeths as "compact" :)

joel
26-02-09, 04:52 AM
They're from the same school of speaker design that refers to your Harbeths as "compact" :)
That's the school of real speaker design. Serious speakers are large. End of story.

RJohan
26-02-09, 04:59 AM
That's the school of real speaker design. Serious speakers are large. End of story.


That's how it is.

JohanR

hifi_dave
26-02-09, 05:15 AM
You sure. I believe I read somewhere that they need to be no more than 6 inch drivers in small cabs and preferably active.:rolleyes:

fatmarley
26-02-09, 05:15 AM
Have a look here Tony: www.troelsgravesen.dk/tannoyMG15.htm

xduode
26-02-09, 05:19 AM
At the time if memory correct i was using 2 radford 40 amps with a radford pre amp
cannot remember exact model of pre
deck std with a sme 3009 ser 3s +shure v15 cartridge
then i had 33-303 got rid , got 34 / bridged ,2 405 got rid. quads , more laid back than jj cale . never again not hi end the quads, music center stuff
all went speakers the lot in 84s
went down hi end route from then on

jimb0
26-02-09, 05:24 AM
Eats, shoots & leaves.

trancera
26-02-09, 05:43 AM
This thread is starting to annoy me.

Playing Atmosphere like that, next thing will be a picture of you playing along to Transmission on your Shergold Tony!

I have JD vinyl
I have a Shergold
I have an FM3 and an FM4, 33, 303 ... the list goes on

I DONT have a pair of 15" Tannoys though :mad:, and actually wouldnt dare living on the 4th floor!

;)

Try the intro of Money for Nothing, should be great if the Atmosphere drums did the trick Tony.

joel
26-02-09, 05:58 AM
I DONT have a pair of 15" Tannoys though :mad:, and actually wouldnt dare living on the 4th floor!
A common misconception about big speakers is that somehow they do deep bass deeper than smaller speakers and are small-room unfriendluy. The truth is rather more subtle than that. Really good large speakers don't necessarily go much lower than smaller speakers (see the JBL9900 thread for confirmation of this), but do sound more real and natural (if they are any good). They also tend to integrate better into smaller rooms because they are less prone to setting off those nasty 50~60Hz room nodes than smaller speakers and the usually wide baffle can act as a wave guide that keeps the higher frequencies from bouncing off nearby walls that interferes with the direct arrival of the wavefront from the speaker.

lexi
26-02-09, 06:04 AM
Tony
There seems to be some mistake. You have my uncles radiogram. That is a family heirloom. I will pick up at the weekend and apologies for any inconvenience in storing it.

:D:D Let it be a lesson to all.........time trawling is not always wasted.

Ohoooooo 15" member now ...........Super result. That`s like catching a 30lb Salmon.

lexi
26-02-09, 06:16 AM
A common misconception about big speakers is that somehow they do deep bass deeper than smaller speakers and are small-room unfriendluy. The truth is rather more subtle than that. Really good large speakers don't necessarily go much lower than smaller speakers (see the JBL9900 thread for confirmation of this), but do sound more real and natural (if they are any good). They also tend to integrate better into smaller rooms because they are less prone to setting off those nasty 50~60Hz room nodes than smaller speakers and the usually wide baffle can act as a wave guide that keeps the higher frequencies from bouncing off nearby walls that interferes with the direct arrival of the wavefront from the speaker.



My small room goes against that Joel. I blame the size 14ftx11ft. Also the construction which is suspended floor and plasterboard ceiling. I am working on it all though. Have stiffened my Berkely cabs no end. Made really good stands and speakers sit on concrete slabs. Bass traps in corners too. Still a bit to go. I go under the floor once the weather warms........then a trap on the ceiling........then the loony bin:D

Tony L
26-02-09, 06:46 AM
Really good large speakers don't necessarily go much lower than smaller speakers (see the JBL9900 thread for confirmation of this), but do sound more real and natural (if they are any good).

I've thought for a long time now that it's not frequency response but the ability to hoof a serious quantity of air about without any effort that matters. A kick drum, bass guitar, piano or whatever shifts a sizeable amount of air, to reproduce it you clearly need to do the same, even if you are not aiming for the same volume level. These things can do it without even breaking a sweat, no matter how closely I look at the drivers I can't see them move! Bass guitar, drums etc actually sound something like the instruments in question, which IMO they don't on the vast majority of audio systems. There are some great small speakers about, I've owned quite a few myself, but they are always creating an illusion of weight and scale rather than actually creating weight and scale IMO. It is a very different thing to my ears.

Tony.

lexi
26-02-09, 07:07 AM
I agree Tony. Especially with well recorded and/or acoustic stuff. My only slight problem is with a very odd track (cd) where the equalisation on a particular bass sound will go incredibly low and shake the room. I blame the production more than anything. Tannoys will build up your six pack as that bass constantly hits your chest and stomach :cool:

Tony L
26-02-09, 09:57 AM
Have a look here Tony: www.troelsgravesen.dk/tannoyMG15.htm

Ah, that's interesting as it has a pic of the crossover - it looks like I have an electrolytic to swap out at some point. I assume the rest can stay as is.

Tony.

trancera
26-02-09, 01:31 PM
Crikey if they are that good with an Electrolytic as old as me in them! I guess just change for a standard film type to match the others, nothing wanky for fear of upsetting the balance...

trancera
26-02-09, 01:32 PM
My small room goes against that Joel. I blame the size 14ftx11ft. Also the construction which is suspended floor and plasterboard ceiling. I am working on it all though. Have stiffened my Berkely cabs no end. Made really good stands and speakers sit on concrete slabs. Bass traps in corners too. Still a bit to go. I go under the floor once the weather warms........then a trap on the ceiling........then the loony bin:D

I have Linn Keilidhs, wouldnt dare go bigger, my room is only 9 ft wide :(

Oh but I should add ... I have no issue with bass - its on its own amp actively crossed at 125hz so you can imagine there's plenty of it when required.

joel
26-02-09, 01:45 PM
I can't imagine why your choice of xover has an effect on in-room response below 100Hz. Is it also an eq for LF driver roll-off?

jirka
26-02-09, 01:50 PM
tony have you seen this one cabinets monitor gold

www.hilberink.nl/codehans/tannoy1.htm

trancera
26-02-09, 02:26 PM
Joel, the spec Active of the speaker is lower than passive. Normally the driver would go to 2.8K, now it is just confined to a very small range of its capability with its own amp and it does it very well indeed :)

Sorry, way off topic for these classics under discussion guys!

lexi
26-02-09, 03:49 PM
tony have you seen this one cabinets monitor gold

www.hilberink.nl/codehans/tannoy1.htm

I think they may be Hans own speakers. He seems to have thrown the contents of a disused bedroom in there. Seriously heavy and ugly but it`s the sound that matters. I`ve checked the whole of Ebay tonight and there are bugger all radiograms left......

Trancera.
Funnily enough guy next door to me has exact same listening room. He has all Linn with Kabers Bi amped They are nice but don`t do bass like 15" Tannoy. So he never has issues with any track cos they don`t go as low . It`s often said that the bass on small speakers is "clean", It`s usually mid bass that is being heard. Now I`m going OT:D

gortnipper
26-02-09, 05:53 PM
I've thought for a long time now that it's not frequency response but the ability to hoof a serious quantity of air about without any effort that matters. A kick drum, bass guitar, piano or whatever shifts a sizeable amount of air, to reproduce it you clearly need to do the same, even if you are not aiming for the same volume level. These things can do it without even breaking a sweat, no matter how closely I look at the drivers I can't see them move!


Ahhhh....welcome to Club 15!!! Although mine are 604s and not Golds - but hey, I am a West Coast Yank - so that is appropriate I guess. I don't see the cones move very much on them either. A neat trick is to use some point source lighting - like a low voltage halogen - and angle it at the cones from about 120 degrees to the baffle so that there is a shadow cast in the cone. Then you can see them dance with the other lights dimmed. It is really deceptive how much they actually move.

I know real Tannoyistas don't like Lancaster cabs, they seem to be considered worst of breed, but these certainly sound really nice. I have no plans to change them anytime soon


The best speakers I have ever heard was a pair of 15" Reds in a GRF Professional (I think) enclosure. I heard them at this guys house here in NZ a few months ago and was floored by them. He had the cabs built by a local cabinet maker, and showed me the 1/4 size foam-core model he made prior to construction, and they look very much like the ones here:

http://www.hilberink.nl/codehans/tannoy18.htm

They truly were impressive, effortless, smooth, blah, blah, blah, euphemisms, etc, ad nauseum - and that just does not do it justice. I almost gave up going home and listening to my OB system. What was the point? The only thing that saved me was that my cabs aren't done yet. Oh yeah, I forgot, I need to listen to music or I die...

Sell the SME and the Hersey's and have the GRF Pros built. Just do it. Beg, Borrow, Build. You won't regret it. Don't think about it. I am channelling you...now...in your sleep...from NZ. Say it with me...GRF Pro...GRF Pro...GRF Pro...

Man, you are one lucky SOB. Years of fun ahead.

David

PS - GRF Pro...GRF Pro...GRF Pro...

ian r
27-02-09, 07:31 AM
Tony - many thanks - I'll take this up by PM, but yes, I'd like to collect :)


Lucky so and so's how I envy that listening session! Sold my briks yesterday via PF and so I now need your Tannoys whoever you are, those poor quality corner Lancasters would be fine.

Enjoy it the both of you

Tony L
27-02-09, 07:48 AM
Sell the SME and the Hersey's and have the GRF Pros built. Just do it. Beg, Borrow, Build. You won't regret it. Don't think about it. I am channelling you...now...in your sleep...from NZ. Say it with me...GRF Pro...GRF Pro...GRF Pro...

I like the idea that I've got an upgrade ahead! I plan to do nothing to them except fix up the grills for a long while though -I've already ordered some vintage grey style grill cloth, a staple gun and some velcro. These cabs are 'big' in my room as is to be honest, I'm not convinced I could cope with a much larger footprint and still be able to get to the vinyl! The fact these are corner cabs actually helps with access to the shelving behind, i.e. they are wide at the front, narrow at the back.

I'm really surprised by how good they sound given they are a variation on the least liked Tannoy cabs. In fact they are even smaller than Lancasters! I measured them earlier and I guess they were 'influenced' by Lancasters rather than a direct copy as they are a couple of inches lower and a couple of inches wider, plus as the cabinets are so extraordinarily thick I guess the internal volume is a bit down too - they are a small box for a 15". I have no idea if the builder 'did the math' or just built something he liked the look of. Listening to them I suspect the former, especially given the attention he paid to rigidity and damping. The construction is pretty astonishing even now, let alone in 1970 when they were built (he wrote the date on the front baffle: 1/6/70!). I'll post the measurements at some point and see if anyone can figure out the internal volume - my math ability is far too crap!

Tony.

John
27-02-09, 08:09 AM
Tony,

This link (http://www.hilberink.nl/speaker.htm#cabinet) has a picture and the dimensions of the Lancaster Corner model.

Click on the link Tannoy brochures in zip-format 2mb and open the file labeled LL2.jpg.

I'm guessing the internal volume is around 80 litres.

Regards,
John

Tony L
27-02-09, 08:33 AM
This link (http://www.hilberink.nl/speaker.htm#cabinet) has a picture and the dimensions of the Lancaster Corner model.

Click on the link Tannoy brochures in zip-format 2mb and open the file labeled LL2.jpg.

I'm guessing the internal volume is around 80 litres.

I've got a real copy of that brochure! They came with a fair bit of paperwork. Mine are an inch bigger in every dimension bar height where they are smaller, the measurement of 33" on the plans (i.e. from above the 'plinth' to the top of cab) is 28" on mine which does put the drivers a little low. I assume the inch bigger thing is as they are a double wall cab, i.e. the inner wall is to the Tannoy dimension, though the missing height will cost a fair bit of internal volume.

Tony,

gortnipper
27-02-09, 11:03 AM
I like the idea that I've got an upgrade ahead!

HA! Spoken like a trure audiophool!

Tony L
27-02-09, 11:12 AM
<the shame>

Tony.

PS Anyone got any tips for fitting grill cloth so it doesn't look like it's been fitted by an idiot? It's a sturdy 12mm thick plywood frame. I've ordered some cloth (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=150328420301), a staple gun and some velcro. I am hoping to bring these items together in some form of process...

gortnipper
27-02-09, 11:44 AM
I have done that a couple times, as well as making window screens. What has worked for me is the following:

Cut the cloth a few inches larger in each dim that you need - better to trim the extra than not have enough

Layout the cloth on a hard surface, stretching it slightly in all dims to lay flat

Place the frame on it how you like it.

Staple one side in the middle of the frame - the staples running parallel to the side you are stapling.

Then staple every two incthes along that side towards one corner, holding the cloth gently taught with your free hand at that corner. Dont staple into the corner - just half a cm or so before it. The trick is to make the cloth taught, but not so much so that it puckers or pulls the grain of the weave.

Repeat on opposite side. For the first staple you are pulling across the grill. For the next stapels you are pulling from the corner in two vectors - so that the edge and crossways are taught. Again - looking to see that the cloth is taught but not so that it pulls.

Do one end, than the other.

So now you have four corners that are loose, but stapled close. Put the gun down, son. With your "free" hand, pull the corner fabric in towards the center of the grill - 45 degrees to the corner and tuck it all in tight from the sides with your gun hand. Pick up the gun and staple across the fold/mitre of the corner. If you do this corner right, and nice and tight, it will sit pretty flat - providing the cloth is not to heavy and you dont need it to sit abosolutely flush as tile work. But if you are using velcro, that should be an issue as long as you dont velcro the corners.

Trim it all up nice.

Take a long draw of that cold beer that is sitting there getting warm, and admire your work.

David

cooky1257
27-02-09, 01:20 PM
Tony, one of the simplest and beneficial upgrades you could perform is to rear mount the drivers(rebated so flush with front baffle even better).
The MG DC never gave its best in that front mounting arrangement, the mids improve, the stereo image really improves and a whole layer of colouration just disappears.
When you construct your grill frame be sure to chamfer the inside edge of the driver cutout and leave as much clearance as possible around the driver edge.
You may find that the corner placement/loading together with the lower cab volume/early IB bass roll off works really well in your room.
Cheers
Cooky

John
27-02-09, 01:41 PM
Tony, one of the simplest and beneficial upgrades you could perform is to rear mount the drivers(rebated so flush with front baffle even better).
Cheers
Cooky
Don't you mean front mount, they look like they're mounted from the back of the baffle now. :)

cooky1257
27-02-09, 11:30 PM
Don't you mean front mount, they look like they're mounted from the back of the baffle now. :)

:)Well different manufacturers use different conventions.
In this instance I'm referring to rear of the driver flange where the rear mounting gasket would go..
http://www.jblpro.com/pages/components/2235h.htm
Note the driver cut out is smaller for 'rear mounting', that said JBL followed a red -ve , black +ve convention for quite a while..

lexi
28-02-09, 03:49 AM
. As your front baffles are double skinned the inner one is has the wider dia. ? So the driver rests on the outer baffle. If you routed that to move driver forward you would end up mounting the driver on the 12 mm of ply that would be left after routing.....not much and still not flush. Front mounting will get them fliush with a router.......Yes?

lexi
28-02-09, 04:02 AM
I`m suggesting this to you but cannot get my arse in gear to build my GRF-R cabs :D

Anyway if your cabs and sound are good ...why bother modding........until you build another cab. Are those two tails of yours still moving as much air as a 15incher :D

cooky1257
28-02-09, 05:23 AM
. As your front baffles are double skinned the inner one is has the wider dia. ? So the driver rests on the outer baffle. If you routed that to move driver forward you would end up mounting the driver on the 12 mm of ply that would be left after routing.....not much and still not flush. Front mounting will get them fliush with a router.......Yes?

The HPD's(same chasis) and 3828 kits recommend mounting on a sub baffle see under HPD Series tech info + cabinet info here http://www.hilberink.nl/speaker.htm#tech

Joe P
28-02-09, 05:25 AM
lexi,

If you're building new cabinets why not go as big as you can fit into the room? If you trawl the Net you'll find schematics for the biggest of the big old Tannoys: GRF rectangular pros, GRF corner and Autographs.

It seems to me that the biggest issue is whether your (or your chippy's) cabinetry skills are up to making an elaborate back-loaded horn.

Joe

lexi
28-02-09, 08:55 AM
Yes Joe the work in the big corner Grf etc is a bit complex. GRF-R I can handle no bother.

Cooky
I got them sub baffles on Berkley that are a bit bigger than driver. Bloody crap they are:D I stiffened mine cabs up no end. Extra 18 mm back and bottom plus metal u channel T braces internally from side to side.

Proper Sub Baffle should be full length I think. Saw your cabs on Yahoo? very nice

cooky1257
28-02-09, 11:55 AM
Yes Joe the work in the big corner Grf etc is a bit complex. GRF-R I can handle no bother.

Cooky
I got them sub baffles on Berkley that are a bit bigger than driver. Bloody crap they are:D I stiffened mine cabs up no end. Extra 18 mm back and bottom plus metal u channel T braces internally from side to side.

Proper Sub Baffle should be full length I think. Saw your cabs on Yahoo? very nice

Wise move re the Berkerleys they drum like an erm... drum without extra bracing.
FWIW I've got both Arundel clones and 215 clones over on Hans' yahoo site.

Craig B
28-02-09, 02:26 PM
Hi Tony,

Nice catch...radiogram indeed!

As to properly re-clothing the grilles (using glue, not staples), see here (http://www.humanspeakers.com/howto/grill-cloth.htm).

Craig

Tony L
28-02-09, 03:59 PM
As to properly re-clothing the grilles (using glue, not staples), see here (http://www.humanspeakers.com/howto/grill-cloth.htm).

Thanks - I'm beginning to formulate a plan. I found another guide here (http://www.harpamps.com/micKdiy/Installing-Grillecloth.html) that takes account of keeping the weave parallel to the edge, which with the type of cloth I ordered will be important to get them looking right. My plan so far is to follow these instructions, i.e. to take great care aligning the top and bottom prior to doing the sides and I'll try using some double sided tape to help position the cloth prior to stapling, I'm hoping that may enable me to be able to re-jig it a bit if it's not right before stapling and act as a 'third hand'. By not using glue I can really go slowly and carefully, I don't care if it takes me a day to do them, I want it to look right!

Tony.

PS I'm really liking these speakers!

hifi_dave
28-02-09, 04:08 PM
In the old days we used to fit the cloth and then go over it with a hairdrier to shrink the fabric a bit for a nice smooth finish.

lexi
01-03-09, 02:25 AM
In the old days we used to fit the cloth and then go over it with a hairdrier to shrink the fabric a bit for a nice smooth finish.

Don`t do that! If your wife comes in and catches you blow drying the speakers she will write it down in a book. That can be used as evidence in any future divorce procedings.

I used low tack tape and applied Ostrich feathers to the 15 inchers once..............just to check the cone movement . During a mad passage from Mahavishnu Orch. when the feathers were going crazy the wife came in and caught me...............it went in the book :confused:......there`s lots of stuff in it (she tels me).

Mr Tibbs
01-03-09, 03:27 AM
Well I'll be...

Enjoy your 'steal', Tony.

I guess I'll be calling you Lucky Lonorgan from now on.

Then that 'Crafty' Clark fellow bagged that nice FM2 from under my nose :(

I feel like kicking something. Here pussy pussy...

Mr Tibbs

Durmbo
01-03-09, 09:46 AM
What a great find!

And gone to a great home. Enjoy! :)

RustyB
01-03-09, 12:06 PM
What I did when i made for grilles for the Tannoy project was to rout a narrow groove on the backside of the MDF, push the cloth down into it, and then ran a Stanley knife along the groove to give a straight cut edge to the cloth.

Tony L
01-03-09, 12:17 PM
That requires woodworking skills and woodworking tools. Neither exist here!

Tony.

hifi_dave
01-03-09, 12:59 PM
A local furniture upholsterer will do it in ten minutes flat for not many pennies.

Tony L
04-03-09, 03:06 AM
I’ve had the Tannoys for a week now, so perhaps time to get some thoughts in order…

What do they do? Move air. They can actually do bass. It’s hard to articulate what I mean here, but other than Isobariks they are the only speaker I’ve ever owned that can create a bass guitar / double bass / bass synth in the room with any degree of realism, i.e, I recognise the instrument as the one I play, not the feeble facsimile that normally emerges from domestic hi-fi. They stop what they start without overshoot too, this is nice tight and fast bass, certainly better than anything I got out of the Briks. I’m not talking about volume here, I still listen quietly, I doubt they have been over 80db since I’ve fired them up - I’m just not a volume freak at all. What I mean is the low notes are low and they are really solid and tangible. There are very few speakers indeed that can do this IMO.

This solid foundation at the bottom seems to make all that sits above function in a different way. Stuff just sounds more real. There are many records that just snap into focus in a way I’ve never heard before. A huge amount of the music I love will have been mixed and mastered using some variation of these drivers and I suspect that shows, i.e. I’m probably getting closer to a control room sound than I’ve had before. They are big, deep, tight and effortless. I likes them.

What do they not do? They are very directional. I guess it's easy to forget that you are listening to a pretty narrow compression horn above about 1Khz. I’d say they are no less directional than the Heresys and certainly sound ‘blunted’ way off axis, surprisingly so from the chair in the window bay (the first picture of this thread was taken from there). Next to no top end in that location! Personally I don’t rate this as a negative, I think Paul Klipsch talked a lot of sense about firing the sound directly at the listener so it gets there long before the reflective sound. They certainly sound very clean in the way good horns seem to IME. Reading around the net I get the impression they don’t have much treble, but I’m 46, so neither do I.

What’s to do? Other than skinning the grills (I now have most of the parts) nothing for a good while. I’m really happy with them so they’ll be left alone for a long, though I’ll probably do a ‘like for like’ replacement of the one electrolytic cap on the crossover. I don’t plan to tweak them though, just restoration.

Future? I plan to learn about cabinets as the ones they are in, whilst superbly built, are theoretically way too small. I suspect they come in at about 80L, I believe 300L is the recommendation. They are also getting on for a foot too low IMO, I’d like to bring that horn up to ear level. A few ideas have crossed my mind varying from the simple to the ridiculous: get some wooden legs made / get a plinth made. The latter route would enable me to increase cabinet volume in an ‘SBL’ manner if I wanted by drilling some holes in the bottom of the existing cab. The most ridiculous idea that’s crossed my mind would be to do as above, but drill some holes through the floor too and effectively vent them into the cellar below! I guess that would effectively put them in free-space as far as the driver was concerned but infinite baffle as far as the listener is concerned – a f***ing huge cabinet without actually having a f***ing huge cabinet in the room. Food for thought, but before that I want to try and understand what different sized cabs will do for the sound. I assume it can only effect the bass as all above is a compression horn that just won’t care at all. As is these are anything but bass-light, they have real weight and heft, so I don’t want ‘more’ bass. I need to learn how the sound is effected by the cabs, i.e. what to expect with any changes.

Tony.

PS regarding the other stuff: it will be hitting the charity room as stated, I’ve just been pressed for time. The FM2 has gone; 75 quid for the gorillas on it’s way shortly. The rest will come when I’ve had time to clean and photograph it. I’ll also need to think about packing for some of it as the only boxes I have that will take the TD-150 and cassette deck are ones I want to keep for my own kit.

bottleneck
04-03-09, 03:31 AM
lexi,

If you're building new cabinets why not go as big as you can fit into the room? If you trawl the Net you'll find schematics for the biggest of the big old Tannoys: GRF rectangular pros, GRF corner and Autographs.

It seems to me that the biggest issue is whether your (or your chippy's) cabinetry skills are up to making an elaborate back-loaded horn.

Joe

quite!

I'd be building corner GRF's for that reason - if I were building Tannoys. It's a nice simple (room friendly) solution to a good sound.

lexi
04-03-09, 03:46 AM
quite!

I'd be building corner GRF's for that reason - if I were building Tannoys. It's a nice simple (room friendly) solution to a good sound.

I think what Joe was hinting at was that small GRF-R aint an improvement over the Berkely really.

Anyways....nice write up Tony.

Joe P
04-03-09, 04:21 AM
lexi,

I think what Joe was hinting at was that small GRF-R aint an improvement over the Berkely really.
Not quite, but if you desire high efficiency and decent low bass the ~300-litre GRF-r cabinet is about as small as you'd want to go. I wouldn't say the GRFs are bass light but if you want to plumb the depths of Bolrog bass at >96 db/watt/metre you'll need a truly room-dominating pair of boxes.


*****

Nice one, Tony.

It could turn out that even though larger enclosures are theoretically better, the bass you get from your 80-litre sealed cabinets might be better suited to you room. Keep the old enclosures just in case.

Joe

cooky1257
04-03-09, 04:26 AM
Law of diminishing returns Tony, anything over 200-225L has very marginal benefit(just run the t&s through winIsd to see what I mean) with 180L a good domestic/ bass/waf compromise.
Reflex loading in an EBS alignment complements room loading really well and gives a wonderful deep breathy bass slightly less snappy than the IB Lancaster sound but one that drops through the floor.

cooky1257
04-03-09, 05:03 AM
BTW that 180L is basically a Tannoy rectangular York/Arundel size box I've owned both and they give bass to die for:)

Joe P
04-03-09, 07:03 AM
Cooky,

Have you heard the Autograph replica cabinets (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TANNOY-AUTOGRAPHS_W0QQitemZ270325949173QQcmdZViewItemQQpt ZUK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpeake rs?hash=item270325949173&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1690%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318) with any of the 15-inch Monitor DCs?

Joe

John
04-03-09, 08:44 AM
It's interesting how your music memory develops hearing your records many times throughout your lifetime and the surprises you get when you notice something in the bass never heard before, it really grabs your attention. I experienced that yesterday listening to Sly and the Family Stone - "Thank You" for the first time since acquiring the speakers and hearing what the bass was doing. It's probably something I heard before but is now presented in shall I say a manner that puts a smile on your face. Tony, I'm sure you maybe experiencing this yourself.

Tony L
04-03-09, 09:31 AM
Yay! Grills:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3637/3328932076_a5ce094df3_o.jpg

Took my time and surprisingly didn't make a complete balls up of it.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3638/3328932446_ee296fb8f7_o.jpg

Job done.

Tony.

Uncle Ants
04-03-09, 09:34 AM
They look fantastic.

cooky1257
04-03-09, 09:42 AM
Cooky,

Have you heard the Autograph replica cabinets (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TANNOY-AUTOGRAPHS_W0QQitemZ270325949173QQcmdZViewItemQQpt ZUK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpeake rs?hash=item270325949173&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1690%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1318) with any of the 15-inch Monitor DCs?

Joe

Not had the pleasure, I have heard some Westminsters and been suitable terrified:D

sideshowbob
04-03-09, 09:44 AM
I've heard Autographs (not replicas). Bloody great.

cooky1257
04-03-09, 09:44 AM
Yay! Grills:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3637/3328932076_a5ce094df3_o.jpg

Took my time and surprisingly didn't make a complete balls up of it.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3638/3328932446_ee296fb8f7_o.jpg

Job done.

Tony.

Nice.

Joe P
04-03-09, 10:40 AM
Nice work, Tony.

Joe

John
04-03-09, 10:51 AM
Nice job on the grilles, those cabinets look beautiful! Now you need to attach a Tannoy label to the front.

John

Fox
04-03-09, 11:01 AM
Added bonus: The Tannoys now add critical mass to the room so the gas heater and the tiled surround now match.

Uncle Ants
04-03-09, 11:06 AM
Added bonus: The Garrad, the Valve Amp and the Tannoys now added a critical mass to the room and the gas heater and the tiled surround now match the decor.

You're not wrong ... Now Tony ... go tidy your room, how long's that coffee cup been there? That's no way to treat your records.

bottleneck
04-03-09, 12:30 PM
quite!

I'd be building corner GRF's for that reason - if I were building Tannoys. It's a nice simple (room friendly) solution to a good sound.


Hi Tony, just had a chance to read through the whole thread (pretty much).

I think keeping what you have is probably a better idea in hindsight. Several grand to get a slightly better sound (hopefully) in GRF's or similar, is a lot of money when you already have a great sounding loudspeaker in your home.

I think the keep-them-and-change-the-grill-if-it's-worn idea is eminently more sensible IMHO.

Glad to see you enjoying your music on one of my favourite loudspeakers, the Tannoy 15" dual concentric.

Great value for what you bought, too. Well done :)

Tony L
04-03-09, 12:53 PM
I think keeping what you have is probably a better idea in hindsight. Several grand to get a slightly better sound (hopefully) in GRF's or similar, is a lot of money when you already have a great sounding loudspeaker in your home.

I think the keep-them-and-change-the-grill-if-it's-worn idea is eminently more sensible IMHO.

That is the plan. The more I listen to them the more I suspect the guy who built the cabs really knew what he was doing. I've heard quite a few Tannoys over the years and these are certainly good 'uns, the bass is superb, really tight and deep. They may not be a big cab, but the excessive construction and rigidity seems to ensure they are not a boomy one. They just don't have any of the cabinet noise I remember from some of the 'boxier' boxes I've heard (especially the 70s models). I really like them. I shall refer to them from now on as Tannoy Wakefields, that being where they came from.

Does anyone have any views about refurbishing the crossover? That's the only other thing I'm tempted to do anytime soon - it pretty much has to be off-spec as it's 39 years old. I believe it only has one electrolytic to swap out. I'm hoping the other stuff is ok and that's all I need to do. I only want to restore here, not 'tweak', i.e. return just it to as close to factory spec as I can.

Tony.

PS John, yes, I need some Tannoy badges!

John
04-03-09, 01:05 PM
Yes, the badges will finish them off nicely. Tony, you have one of the few sealed Tannoy 15 DC speakers I know of, most of the one's I've seen are ported or horn loaded in some way. I've posted this before, but I believe this is what the crossover in your speakers look like.

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Tannoy/MG_crossover_2.jpg

Tony L
04-03-09, 01:36 PM
I suspect that crossover is an 'after', there is a 'before' here (http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=184147) on AK. The thread goes very quiet at the end, i.e. nothing positive said about the recapped crossover. If I do mine I plan just to do the electrolytic to start off, it has to be trashed by now. I think the others are paper in oil so they may be ok. I don't know though, hence asking for advice. I don't want to change their character at all so I only want to swap what is knackered.

The infinite baffle cabs are not without precedent, 15" Lancasters are sealed in both their corner and rectangular form. The 12"s in the same cabs are ported. No idea why the difference.

Tony.

Joe P
04-03-09, 01:44 PM
FWIW, Lockwood Audio says the electrolytic caps in the old crossovers rarely if ever fail as they're oil filled.

Their recommendation is to hardwire the DC driver to the crossover, bypassing the pins, but leave the crossover alone.

Joe

Tony L
04-03-09, 01:59 PM
FWIW, Lockwood Audio says the electrolytic caps in the old crossovers rarely if ever fail as they're oil filled.

Their recommendation is to hardwire the DC driver to the crossover, bypassing the pins, but leave the crossover alone.

I don't quite understand that. My feeble grasp is that an electrolytic cap is an electrolytic cap, a paper in oil cap is a paper in oil cap, i.e. they are different things. The Gold crossover has one electrolytic. I may give Lockwood a ring and ask for advice. I don't want to fart about with the pins / plugs etc, that's 'tweaking', I just don't want to go there. They are what they are and I likes 'em, I just want to make sure they are fit, healthy and working as intended.

Tony.

Joe P
04-03-09, 02:09 PM
Tony,

I'd appreciate your passing on what Roger at Lockwood Audio recommends.

My crossovers are even older (circa 1958) and my Tannoy guy has not been able to source the four-pin plugs to wire up the new crossovers he's built, so I've not been able to compare old vs new yet.

(I'm not saying my Tannoys couldn't be better, but they sound so good that it's hard to imagine the crossovers are in dire need of servicing.)

Joe

bottleneck
04-03-09, 03:02 PM
Caps that are the same since 1958!?

I remember when I changed the caps in a 70's Altec, all to the better. The old ones were muffly *(technical term) in comparison.

Decent Solens or similar are pretty cheap and you can always put the old ones back in. Something 30 yrs plus, I would want them changed personally...

But each to their own, I'm hypocritical in some ways, I really like my old Sansui amp, and that's 70's and I havent even touched it.

Mind you, that was less than 100 on Ebay

Joe P
04-03-09, 03:04 PM
Chris,

Caps that are the same since 1958!?
That was my thought as well, but Roger at Lockwood said they ought to be fine.

Joe

Dave Cattlin
04-03-09, 08:56 PM
I propose a mass PFM field-trip to Lonergan towers to wreak karmic revenge by eating his biscuits and mucking with his cartridge azimuth.

He has biscuits?

Patrick Dixon
05-03-09, 08:49 AM
I don't quite understand that. My feeble grasp is that an electrolytic cap is an electrolytic cap, a paper in oil cap is a paper in oil cap, i.e. they are different things.

They are.

In vintage radio circles, they don't go alot on how capacitors sound (they call that sort of stuff audiophool nonsense), but they do routinely change 50 year old electrolytics because they dry out and their capacitance and resistance changes.

The paper in oil ones are generally considered OK (wax paper no-no), but I changed some 60 year old ones in a radio and got improved radio-ness. Modern capacitors are probably just made of better materials to better tolerances.

You can also get modern capacitors in much bigger capacitance values than they used to be able to make (for the same size), so it's worth considering replacing electrolytic types with polypropylene ones to the same spec.

Tony L
05-03-09, 10:28 AM
Thanks Patrick, I'm assuming my crossovers will look something like this:

http://i39.tinypic.com/2u4ik41.jpg

I can recognise the electrolytic (silver thing on the left), are the other caps paper in oil?

I'm tempted to just do the electrolytic, it's bound to be off to some degree, in fact I read a thread somewhere where someone had measured the ones he'd taken out of his Golds and not only were they way off but they were different to one another too. I don't want to 'tweak' these at all, just restore as much as is possible. With this in mind is there anything else that might be in serious need of attention in that pic?

Tony.

Patrick Dixon
05-03-09, 10:58 AM
Probably.

I'd probably change the lot myself. There's only 4 and by the time you've got the thing out you might as well. Save the old ones and then you could always put them back when you get your museum going.

I assume those green things are resistors. 5% tolerance! I'd probably change those too. At least measure them and see how far off they are.

Abide by the voltage ratings on the caps - looks like 250V on the two I can see.

Here (http://uk.farnell.com/ampohm-wound-products/fp-ca-16-au/audio-capacitor-16uf-630v/dp/1636647?_requestid=726775)'s the perfect replacement for your 'lytics. Bit expensive, but the price comes down if you buy a 100 ...

These (http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp;jsessionid=W5IY40FWUZTU4CQLCIPJK0Q?N=22 3339+364122&_requestid=727541) are good I reckon. You'd have to put 2 in // to give 16.8uF (the electrolytic will probably be 20% tolerance anyway).

BTW It not just the capacitance value that goes, the leakage changes too and you really need to test them at voltage to check they're OK.

Tony L
05-03-09, 11:11 AM
I have a feeling that big fat thing you recommend wouldn't fit in the crossover box!

Tony.

Patrick Dixon
05-03-09, 11:34 AM
I wouldn't say recommended - I've never actually tried one! I have tried the others, and I would recommend them, although no doubt there are other, better, more expensive, things around.

Tony L
05-03-09, 02:17 PM
Solen do a 16uf / 400v cap that I know will fit in the Tannoy crossover box as I've seen a pic. Anyone know where I can buy some from? The only place I can find by googling is parts-express.com in the US and they won't ship anything less than a stupidly large order to the UK - I'd end up having to spend about 65 quid inc shipping to get two $8 caps as they want a $50 minimum order and $40+ for postage! They are made in France, surely there must be an easier option?

Tony.

Mr Tibbs
05-03-09, 02:33 PM
Tony, I tried a quick search but couldn't find a Solen dealer in the UK.

Wilmslow appear to be selling a decent looking range of polypropylene capacitors they call Supersound (https://secure.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=49_50_54&products_id=389&osCsid=4b9b8d225b0381c6e5e9ec00648687de). Worth a punt I'd say.

Mr Tibbs

pure sound
05-03-09, 02:39 PM
you could do worse than the Clarity caps or some of the other types sold by HiFi Collective

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/claritycap_sa.html

martin clark
05-03-09, 02:42 PM
Tony - have a look here for suitable parts:

http://wduk.worldomain.net/acatalog/Capacitors.html

IIRC the 'Soniqs' stuff is made by ClarityCap. World Designs used to be World Audio, now owned/run by Peter Comeau - who is certainly not a BS artiste.

Don't worry about matching a 600v rating; and a 15uF part would just about meet that 5% tolerance stamped on the bit in your pic; but the closer matching between channls such modern bits offer is probably rather more significant. HTH.


(edit to add - can endorse the posts above as all good too, having tried them all)

Tony L
05-03-09, 02:54 PM
Many thanks, I've gone with the Wilmslow option as it's the right value and they specify size - it's within a couple of mm of the Solen so it should physically fit in the plastic crossover box.

Tony.

Patrick Dixon
05-03-09, 03:09 PM
I doubt the electrolytic will be 5%!

Solen look like they're Canadian rather than real french - they have their own website but I don't know if they have min orders or how much shipping would be.

http://www.solen.ca/pub/

Tony L
05-03-09, 03:31 PM
I eventually found the Solen site, that's where I got the measurements. I'd have been just as happy with a fresh electrolytic to be honest as at the moment I just want to endure they are close to original spec as I can get them. As I understand it this is the most likely 'bad' element. This (http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/tannoyMG15.htm) page is interesting as it's written by a guy who is far from infatuated with the things and he found most of the crossover acceptable but the electrolytics were quite a bit off spec. I want to hit this one as I have a suspicion one of them is very, very slightly warmer than the other in the upper bass / lower mid, though it might a) be my imagination, b) be any number of things e.g. an imperfect cabinet seal somewhere. Option a) is actually quite likely to be honest, if present it is very subtle indeed and probably within positioning error - I'm just noticing a little imprecision in central image, but by saying that I previously owned Harbeths which are I understand pretty much world class in this respect.

Tony.

Tony L
06-03-09, 03:58 AM
The answer to the above is a).

I've just played around with positioning a little (they seem remarkably sensitive to this) and got things bang on. I think the combination of them being horns, being too low to the floor, and being back-mounted on the baffle mean they beam rather a lot. They need to be aimed at the listening seat pretty accurately and I need to sit in the right place for them to really sing. The more I listen the more certain I am the drivers are working spot on, they really do sound lovely. I suspect there are very few pairs in this condition; I'm the second owner and I suspect they've only had very light domestic use (I looked at the guy's record collection, all lightweight easy-listening stuff). He bought them new in 1970. I imagine most old Tannoys will have changed hands a few times by now and many will have been thrashed at high volume levels.

Tony.

eguth
09-03-09, 07:04 AM
Solen do a 16uf / 400v cap that I know will fit in the Tannoy crossover box as I've seen a pic. Anyone know where I can buy some from? The only place I can find by googling is parts-express.com in the US and they won't ship anything less than a stupidly large order to the UK - I'd end up having to spend about 65 quid inc shipping to get two $8 caps as they want a $50 minimum order and $40+ for postage! They are made in France, surely there must be an easier option?

Tony.

Tony
http://www.percyaudio.com/Catalog.pdf

On p.6 of Percy's catalogue you will see he stocks the 630V version of 15uF. The 630V version is reputed to sound best (I believe it). You need to bypass this with a Solen 1uF to make it up to 16uf. The 15's will total about $16 for two, and the luFs about $4.50 for two, making a total of $20.50. His minimum is $25 so you can buy a small amount more of his other superb stuff to qualify for the minimum. He marks parcels at a low value, and I have never had any problems with customs or VAT- and I have been dealing with Percy for many years.

If you want even better performance, you can use the Reliable cap RTX luF caps as bypasses instead of the Solen 1uF (see p.5 of cat). The RTXs are MUCH better; I have just installed some as bypasses. They are a lot more expensive. Well worth it.
Regards,

Eguth

Tony L
09-03-09, 08:24 AM
Wilmslow sent me the 630v ones, they are too big to go in the crossover box so I'm waiting for them to answer their email so I can get my cash back. I have read elsewhere that they are rebadged Solens. I'm still doing research on the crossovers, which is hard as I have zero electronics understanding. It's a real shame there is no Tannoy equivalent to the wonderful Bob Crites (he who makes replacement Klipsch crossovers) as really what I'd like is a 'kit', i.e. known good sounding parts that are known to fit neatly into the box. I'll eventually figure it out though.

Over the weekend I gave the control knobs a bit of a clean and thorough jiggling about with some switch cleaner and polished up the slightly dull looking 4 pin plug with some Brasso wadding. They perhaps seem a little crisper now. I also took some measurements of the drivers from the socket the 4 pin plug fits into: woofers 6.2 / 6.1 Ohms, horns 11.8 / 10.6 Ohms.

I spoke to Lockwood and the discrepancy between the horns is not necessarily an issue, though 11.8 Ohm things is apparently a little high. I still ordered a new pair of horn diaphragms - it makes sense to have some spares of the most likely to fail part IMO as suspect I'll keep these drivers for the duration now. My money's probably safer there than in the bank at the moment too!

Tony.

Joe P
09-03-09, 08:41 AM
Tony,

Does Lockwood have spare diapragms for Monitor Reds? Might be worth having them on hand just in case.

Joe

fatmarley
09-03-09, 09:54 AM
Tony,
I know you're not interested in tweaking but thought you may find this interesting........http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

Tony L
09-03-09, 10:46 AM
Does Lockwood have spare diapragms for Monitor Reds? Might be worth having them on hand just in case.

The horn diaphragm is apparently exactly the same item for the Red, Gold and HPD. The Tannoy part number (7900 0205) is the same for all these models.

Tony.

PS Joe, you need to join the Yahoo Tannoy group here (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/tannoy), there is a lot of info there to sift through and a lot about Reds and GRF cabs.

Tony L
09-03-09, 10:56 AM
Tony,
I know you're not interested in tweaking but thought you may find this interesting........http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

Thanks, I saw that when I was doing my Heresys. I'd be more than happy to use Sonicaps again as that's what Bob Crites sent me for the Heresys, they are fine to my ears. The question is whether they'll fit in the crossover box. It's far from a small box, but some of these modern caps (such as the Wilmslow 630v ones sitting in front of me) are bloody huge.

Tony.

John
09-03-09, 11:00 AM
The horn diaphragm is apparently exactly the same item for the Red, Gold and HPD. The Tannoy part number (7900 0205) is the same for all these models.


Here's a seller (http://www.speakerrepair.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=10-377&Category_Code=ta_tannoy_dia).

fatmarley
09-03-09, 11:32 AM
Thanks, I saw that when I was doing my Heresys. I'd be more than happy to use Sonicaps again as that's what Bob Crites sent me for the Heresys, they are fine to my ears. The question is whether they'll fit in the crossover box. It's far from a small box, but some of these modern caps (such as the Wilmslow 630v ones sitting in front of me) are bloody huge.

Tony.

Hificollective has a large range of poly caps. You may find something there that fits....http://www.hificollective.co.uk/

Tony L
09-03-09, 11:50 AM
Here's a seller (http://www.speakerrepair.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=10-377&Category_Code=ta_tannoy_dia).

That's a lot dearer than Lockwood, they were about 83 UKP a piece inc VAT and delivery.

Tony.

Joe P
09-03-09, 11:55 AM
Tony,

Does Lockwood recommend periodically replacing the diaphragms, even if they're not fried? Just wondering if I should service my drivers, given that they're half a century old.

Joe

Tony L
09-03-09, 12:18 PM
Does Lockwood recommend periodically replacing the diaphragms, even if they're not fried? Just wondering if I should service my drivers, given that they're half a century old.

I couldn't really figure that out. I get the impression it depends on a combination of the speaker's life, i.e. has it been thrashed at all, and pure chance. There seem to be various things that can go wrong with the diaphragms from their coils changing resistance, to their "becoming oval", or even spontaneously failing due to metal fatigue. I understand the diaphragms failed far more frequently than the bass units in heavy studio use and were therefore designed to be a field-replaceable unit. I'll possibly never use the ones I've just bought, but I'd far prefer to have a pair available in case of failure than find none were available should such a situation arise.

If you need any help setting yours up here's Abbey Road's Lancasters circa 1971:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3635/3341436159_842c34ffb3.jpg

Tony.

Joe P
09-03-09, 12:43 PM
Tony,

I'll possibly never use the ones I've just bought, but I'd far prefer to have a pair available in case of failure than find none were available should such a situation arise.
Thanks. I'm of the same mindset -- found my speaker for life -- so getting a spare diaphragm sounds like a smart idea. I'll check with my Tannoy guy to see if they're available locally. If not, I hope Lockwood ships internationally.

If you need any help setting yours up here's Abbey Road's Lancasters circa 1971
I like those Lancaster stands, but they might buckle under the weight of GRFs. They're rather heavy buggers.

Joe

bottleneck
09-03-09, 01:00 PM
Diaprhagm's ''go'' in horns, it's just a fact of life really - this has been my experience. You can be lucky and they can last 30 years, or you can pop them - usually by doing something wrong :D

I have changed them a few times.

Still, screw apart - replace diaphragm in a dust free environment - bing bang bosh.

Much better than trying to fix a blown ribbon or silk tweeter etc imo.



Tony - is your surround on the 15" foam? - more likely that this will go stale and evaporate if it is (in the lifetime of the speaker) needing a fix, again just IME.

None of this is exactly a collossal problem though...

and worth it in the life of owning beautiful and classic speakers.

Tony L
09-03-09, 01:25 PM
Tony - is your surround on the 15" foam? - more likely that this will go stale and evaporate if it is (in the lifetime of the speaker) needing a fix, again just IME.

No, the Gold (and Red) has a kind of rubber doped 'accordion-style' paper surround which seems remarkably resilient, the paper cone itself goes right to the edge (it's the later HPD foam surround that fails). I've been reading the Yahoo Tannoy group and apparently the Gold / Red surround can stiffen a little over the years and the freespace resonance can increase by a few Hz, but it doesn't seem to be an issue. I've looked very carefully indeed at mine and there is no 'cone sag' at all, again these Tannoys seem completely immune to it, so no need to rotate the driver or anything like that. The points of failure seem to be the diaphragm and beyond that the results of serious abuse, i.e. burnt out coils, Ainico magnets damaged / demagnetised by overdriving or shock etc. Mine are second user and seem in perfect shape. I strongly suspect by looking at the original owner's record collection that they have never been caned, he liked real cheesy easy-listening, Wurlitzer Classics, Hot Hawaiian Hits etc - I've not seen a collection like it outside of a charity shop! I'm very far from a volume freak myself so they'll probably never see over 85-90db.

Tony.

bottleneck
09-03-09, 03:22 PM
I think I need to invite myself round, put some dub on and wick them up to 11 !

:D

gortnipper
09-03-09, 03:26 PM
I've looked very carefully indeed at mine and there is no 'cone sag' at all, again these Tannoys seem completely immune to it, so no need to rotate the driver or anything like that.

You should rotate them anyways, that way they have 30 more years of sag free cones before you go deaf, die, and your rele's flog them off to someone else for a few quid! :D

David

Borellus
09-03-09, 03:58 PM
he liked real cheesy easy-listening, Wurlitzer Classics, Hot Hawaiian Hits etc -

Off to find these on Spotify....:cool:

lexi
09-03-09, 04:57 PM
Mmmm......That guys record collection goes hand in hand with his hi fi valuations skills :D

Mr Tibbs
10-03-09, 01:49 AM
Well, Tony's luck seems to have spilled over to me a little;

http://www.btinternet.com/~david.stewart37/FM3/Quad_FM2.jpg

It's a beauty - practically perfect condition and working very well. I'll start another thread with more pic's and chit chat about this tubed up tuna.

Many thanks to Tony for the easy transaction and to Martin Clark for letting me have the thing!

Mr Tibbs

andy831
10-03-09, 02:30 AM
I just love the styling of that Quad Stuff

DSJR
10-03-09, 04:04 AM
Mine sounds soft, apparently due to the stereo decoder. Any help to make it livelier?

Patrick Dixon
10-03-09, 05:22 AM
Put it on Mana.

Uncle Ants
10-03-09, 07:21 AM
I strongly suspect by looking at the original owner's record collection that they have never been caned, he liked real cheesy easy-listening, Wurlitzer Classics, Hot Hawaiian Hits etc - I've not seen a collection like it outside of a charity shop! I'm very far from a volume freak myself so they'll probably never see over 85-90db.

Off topic I know, but I have never in my life come across anyone with a collection like that either ... or even saw many of them in record shops back when we had a lot of record shops ... which then begs the question ... where do all those records in the charity shop actually come from? It's a bit of a mystery isn't it?

Mr Tibbs
10-03-09, 07:29 AM
Mine sounds soft, apparently due to the stereo decoder. Any help to make it livelier?

Mine doesn't!

The FM2 needs to see a load of 100k or the frequency response will be skewed.

Mr Tibbs

fatmarley
12-03-09, 01:35 PM
I wonder what's in these????

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-speakers-with-marble-top_W0QQitemZ320348065904QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Aud ioVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpeakers?hash =item320348065904&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1300|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A13 18

hifi_dave
12-03-09, 01:54 PM
Spiders :o

Tony L
12-03-09, 02:13 PM
Hmmm... "a single speaker in each box"? That's all I got!

Tony.

Joe P
12-03-09, 02:29 PM
Tony,

Why don't you bid 5 pounds? The size of the speakers is hard to judge from the picture. Maybe they're corner GRFs.

Joe

Patrick Dixon
12-03-09, 02:29 PM
They look very Dynatron.

Tony L
12-03-09, 03:47 PM
Why don't you bid 5 pounds? The size of the speakers is hard to judge from the picture. Maybe they're corner GRFs.

Too far away for me. The lot I went for had enough known sellable stuff on view to walk away ahead even after hiring the van if the speakers had been worthless crap, i.e. it was not a gamble. I'd love to know what's in those though!

Tony.

fatmarley
12-03-09, 04:29 PM
Spiders :o

Lol!


It seems odd that someone would go to the trouble of having marble tops made for cheap speakers. I live too far away to take a risk also.

It would be good if a pfisher bought them, so we could see what's inside.

Uncle Ants
12-03-09, 05:07 PM
Not if you keep pot plants on top of them.

Tony L
17-09-09, 06:54 AM
I've finally bitten the bullet and recapped my Monitor Golds. My aim at this stage is simply to get them working as close to original spec as is possible, i.e. I'm not attempting any audiophool tweaks etc. There are four caps in a MG crossover; 16uf, 6.8uf, 3.3uf and 1.5uf. The 16uf caps are apparently the bass driver roll-off and are electrolytic and the most likely to be iffy after 40 years, the 6.8uf is for the tweeter, I don't know what the other two do. I ordered a full set anyway, I went for the Wilmslow Audio re-badged Solen film cap for the 16uf (as I'd seen someone else get one in the box!) and Vishays everywhere else (as recommended by Rob).

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2464/3928235085_3abd657bcd_o.jpg

Back doors off and ready for the scary bit.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3423/3929018002_c23e9360ed_o.jpg

The scary bit. The crossover boxes are riveted together, so to gain access one needs to gently drill the rivets out. It was actually pretty easy.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3487/3928235311_a8c4444bf9_o.jpg

The crossovers in daylight for the first time in 40 years. I was surprised to see what look like nice film caps in the 3.3uf and 1.5uf positions. I decided to leave them be and just do the 16uf and 6.8uf.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3506/3929018218_185738467d_o.jpg

Job done. This is all I intend doing for a while, so I bolted the crossover boxes back together (it all fits nicely with no squeezing) and put the speakers back together. First impressions are of nicer cleaner extremes, but without altering the character at all, which is exactly what I wanted. They sound the same but with slightly tighter bass and a crisper, clearer top end. At some point in the future I may desolder the lead to the switch-box and bypass it in the 'level' positions, but I have to admit that is beyond my skill set at present as I've no idea which pins to connect to hard-wire it etc (I can't read electronic diagrams etc so have no idea how it all works - I can just solder stuff, that's it!)

I shall give them a better listen tonight, but first impressions are definitely favourable.

Tony.

Joe P
17-09-09, 07:57 AM
Good one, Tony.

Is it a night and day difference, or just better?

Joe

Robert
17-09-09, 09:02 AM
Excellent Tony - and glad they fit the box.

cooky1257
17-09-09, 09:19 AM
Wise move-Glad it's all tickeddy boo. I've heard cap swaps completely spoil older DC's, I used Wilmslow super caps on some HPD's once and they just never sounded right so reverted to the stock ones.

Tony L
17-09-09, 09:39 AM
Is it a night and day difference, or just better?

Not night and day at all, but definitely noticeable - the character is still exactly the same, just a little cleaner and better defined. The bass is a little grippier and the top a little clearer and more extended, though it's not made them sound 'bright', 'thin' or anything like that, they still sound just like my Tannoys. I'm listening to them now and they sound bloody superb to be honest.

Tony.

Mr Tibbs
17-09-09, 09:59 AM
Leaving the original film types put is a sound move as they are probably still working within spec. The two ely cap's must really be in poor condition by now - goodness knows what value of capacitance they have, obviously affecting the intended operation of the crossover.

The sound may improve a little more over the next few days.

Mr Tibbs

Joe P
17-09-09, 10:38 AM
Cooky,

Do you know if there are electrolytics in late 1950s Tannoy crossovers? This is a question not even the Tannoy engineer bloke could answer.

I've tried Net searches and even with my blackbelt in googling I couldn't find a thing.

Help me Obi Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope.

Joe

trancera
17-09-09, 10:55 AM
One of the DIY nuts might be interested in telling you just how bad the electrolytics are Tony. I'm sure a couple of others interested too.

I think a very wise service here, not worth messing them up at all. Enjoy :)

Robert
17-09-09, 11:20 AM
They seem to have varied the cap types over over years as looking at different owners boards shows quite a bit of variation.

cooky1257
17-09-09, 01:19 PM
Cooky,

Do you know if there are electrolytics in late 1950s Tannoy crossovers? This is a question not even the Tannoy engineer bloke could answer.

I've tried Net searches and even with my blackbelt in googling I couldn't find a thing.

Help me Obi Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope.

Joe

Joe I've pulled this from the Tannoy group.
John is a bit of an expert re Tannoy xovers, having modeled and matched the xover voltage drives for the Golds he's designed fully active xover that preserves the voicing of the passive networks. Anyhow here he talks of electrolytics in the Red xovers and the advice not to alter originals just build new ones:

What is really good about the Reds crossover is it's simplicity and so low
cost/ease of duplication/improvement.... especially good is the fact that there
is no multiple tapped autotransformer for the mid driver (as in the Gold's),
which normally has to be custom made.if one desires to keep the mid driver's
level switching feature, which is the reason for it's inclusion in the next
series (original) Gold's design.

Advanced workers world wide are in agreement that by far the greatest
improvement one can make to the Red's/ Gold's lowest octave frequency
performance quality in scratch building a new substitute crossover) is in using
an inductor with the lowest DC resistance possible, which then allows the
highest damping of the drivers impedance variations by an amplifier/cable with
very low output impedance/resistance. it works a treat.

The 15 ohm Red's crossover schematic is on Stephen Spicers Tannoy site here.
http://www.users.bigpond.com/tunnelgap/Tannoy/images/MonitorRedSilver15xO1.gif

As can be seen it is simplicity itself. The single series inductor of 4mh can be
purchased ready made over an iron core or bar, or made DIY. To ensure the
lowest possible DC resistance many DIYers purchase two 8mh inductors per
channel, and parallel these to give the specified 4mh value with half the DCR.
The capacitor needs to be 18 uf.

One should be aware of the fact that it is quite normal, even today, to find
electrolytic types have stated tolerances of +/- 50% and more, which always Do
need selection. Again if one must use electrolytics in this position, choose
BiPolar (non polarised types) of a high enough AC voltage/ ripple current rating
and select the values, making up the final specified value/discrepancy by
paralleling small values of say, 1uf polypropelene types, which has benefit in
attenuation of the higher fo's as well.

using the correct value cap in many cases 'fixes' the low mid clarity, which
tones are otherwise almost completely missing, having been rolled off way too
early when/if the electrolytics used were/are higher in value than specified due
to tolerance. This certainly affects the tonality of the lf, but does not not
in any way affect the boominess associated with insufficient damping of lf
resonances/impedance variations. It is the DCR of the inductor alone which
affects this wrt the crossover unit. The DCR of the crossover inductors are
normally high enough to very much negate subjectively the damping effect's of
the highest performance amplifiers available, and should be kept as low as
possible. This aspect is another advantage of active crossovers/biamplification,
in elimination of the series lf inductor's DCR..
other contributing factors re damping are the speaker wiring/amplifier o/p
resistance as previously stated.

The mid driver crossover section is simply two good quality polypropelene
capacitors and a 30 ohm WW resistor. It is important to use the values as
specified here, (not a nominal 33 ohms type, etc) as the r/c pad actually is EQ
for the Red's mid driver unit as well as its x/over function.

There are 'exotic' inductor and capacitor types available which are Very
Expensive, as well as excellent NOS paper in oil types from surplus
stores/dumpster diving ;-)

best regards
john ridley

May the force be with you.

Joe P
18-09-09, 01:59 PM
Cheers, Cooky.

Joe

Tony L
18-09-09, 06:19 PM
Another progress report, no pics this time as I thought this would be a lot more simple than it turned out to be...

Ever since I landed these Tannoys I've had a nagging doubt that they were not perfectly matched. The way I listen is kind of 'mid-field', they are about 3m away from the listening seat and about the distance same apart, this is mainly dictated by room size. They are very directional being a horn driver and image far more precisely that one would expect of a large speaker. I've often felt that the central image 'walked' just a little and some things I know should be centred often ended up very slightly to one side or the other, but it was hard to detect as simply moving your head a bit can make the image walk (beaming). This was never as simple as one having more treble than the other, it was more a very slight notch or two in the upper ranges. I was hoping recapping the crossovers would fix this.... if anything it made it more apparent as everything is cleaner and a little more focused. I swapped the crossovers over from one speaker to the other. It was not the crossovers.

Soon after buying the Tannoys I bought a spare pair of compression drivers as spares from Lockwood. They've been sitting in a cardboard box ever since. So, I thought I'd bung them in. This has worked, they now image very solidly, both male and female vocal are rock solid and don't wander. Getting there however was a whole world of pain.

The theory is simple: unscrew the four little bolts that hold the gold end-caps on to the back of the driver, desolder the two HF wires, unscrew another four bolts and gently pull out the old diaphragm and fit in the new one. Further reading indicates one should run a 1khz test tone through them and jiggle the diaphragm around until it sounds the smoothest / cleanest. This is fine apart from the new drivers being slightly different to the originals (they now have a plastic / bakelite back plate rather than the alloy of the original item), they are now an interference fit in the shallow indentation, no jiggle room at all - they pop in almost like a bath plug. My first attempt resulted in having one speaker sounding great, the other sounding somewhat dull and muffled. Definitely not right. Given they are such a precise fit I didn't really know what to do, so I desoldered them and swapped them over to the opposite speaker. Now I had a firm central image, but one had far more 'air' and life at the top than the other. Still not right. Damn.

I jiggled some more, tried rotating the slightly duller one through 90 degrees. Still no joy. Running white noise through the system highlighted a slight discrepancy, one side kind of sounded Roland, one Moog if you know what I mean (ok, 96% of people won't), lets just say one was very slightly 'pinker' noise and electronica with panned hi-hats or crisp synths showed it to be wong.

Back to the Yahoo Tannoy group for another very lengthy search... Aha. Spacers! Tannoys have paper and card spacers between the driver and the diaphragm assembly, both mine have one of thin brown card and one of white paper, though apparently this varies driver to driver. I'd just left them be, but searching the Tannoy group eventually brought up a post that contained the answer – amongst other things the spacers impact treble balance – the closer the diaphragm sits to the peperpot the brighter it sounds, i.e. remove spacers to brighten things up a little, add them to go the other way. I seem to have got a nice match by removing one card spacer on the less-crisp side leaving just the thin paper spacer. It worked. Thank f*** for that!

The other scary bit is that one has to sand about a millimetre or maybe more off the thick black plastic back of the current spec replacement diaphragms in order to get the gold end-caps back on (I was told this by Lockwood), either that or leave the end-caps off (which I didn't want to do as the back of the speaker is such a neat place to keep them safe!). I did this right at the beginning of the process well away from the speakers and hoovered any debris. It was actually very easy, but not something one expects to do to a replacement part that costs 90 a piece!

This post is actually a huge simplification of events, I must have had them apart 10 or 15 times before getting to the point I was completely happy they were correctly balanced. Anyway it was worth it, I'm pretty confident these Monitor Golds are now sounding just as they should: they sound bloody great on music, they seem fine on tones (i.e. sweeps / individual tones / white & pink noise stay centred) and have treble at least as high as I can hear (which seems to be 13.5Khz). They also seem to beam less. Job done.

Tony.

PS nice free test tone generator for OS X here (http://web.mac.com/okkibokki/okkibokki_Site/okkibokki_software.html).

cooky1257
19-09-09, 02:07 AM
Good job Tony, so you changed both HF dias? So did you remove the old paper washers too? I ask because some have achieved good results with combinations of old and new paper while dumping the thick card one.
Another tuning trick is the tension on the screws holding the dias in place-this can be quite critical as uneven tension can distort the profile of the dome.
It is also recommended to clean out the vc gap and pepperpot phase plug while you are there. I find that crossing the axis of drivers at about 1m in front of you helps broaden the sweetspot.
Cooky.

Tony L
19-09-09, 02:31 AM
Yes, I changed them as a pair with brand new ones bought from Lockwood. One speaker has the original amount of paper spacers (one brown, one white), the other seems to prefer having just the white one. I hoovered out the voice coil gap and pepperpot when I had them apart. The speakers seem in excellent condition, everything is very bright and shiny inside, hard to believe they are getting on for my own age, the pepperpots seem pretty well centred too which is a relief after seeing pics of some on the internet (I used a little plastic cable tie as a feeler-gauge). The HF diaphragms I removed measured 12.0 and 10.6 Ohm, the ones I've just put in are 10.0 and10.4. I believe the spec is 10.6 +/- 1 Ohm, so one of my originals was slightly off.

Tony.

PS if you are ever in Lancashire pop in and have a listen, it would be good to have a second opinion from someone who really knows these speakers.

cooky1257
19-09-09, 02:49 AM
Thanks for the invite-I drive up to Preston every day so it's a possibility.
I'd love to hear them-my ears are no better than yours though!
They will probably be better than new once run in-there's more to come from them soundwise as they settle you find the old units were probably showing signs of fatigue.
I'd drive them hard for a few hours to release the stresses from the dias.
Cooky

Robert
19-09-09, 06:31 AM
The HF diaphragms I removed measured 12.0 and 10.6 Ohm


Quite a large difference and could be why you detected the image being off centre.

Can measure them accurately next week if you like, if you want to really fine tune them.

Joe P
19-09-09, 07:09 AM
Tony,

My ancient Tannoys weren't perfectly matched either, so some months ago I bought a pair of replacement HF diaphragms to see if that would address the problem.

I didn't measure the old pair to see how closely they're matched, but the new ones have a DC resistance of 10.0 Ω and 9.7 Ω. Obviously, they're not identical, but one is within a few percentage points of the other and both are within the spec you quoted — 10.6 1 Ω.

The new diaphragms not only sound better than the original ones, but they also solved the slight imbalance problem, so job done x2.

(Rather comforting to know that you can still get OEM replacement parts for a 51-year-old speaker.)

Joe

Tony L
19-09-09, 08:11 AM
Can measure them accurately next week if you like, if you want to really fine tune them.

That would be good - I'm still not happy they are right to be honest, I've been fiddling with the things again all afternoon and I just can't fix it. My suspicion is that one of the new diaphragms is a bit shite, it is very tight in the hole, so I suspect it is under a little tension that it shouldn't be which is rolling the extreme top end a little. By tight I mean tight in the recess in the back of the driver, not tight in the voice-coil gap - once it's pushed in it's pretty hard to get out again! The other just fits neatly with no pressure (this is in either speaker, i.e. the problem follows the compression driver). Something is a bit off anyway, and given these are meant to be easily field-replacable in studios by the sound engineer it certainly shouldn't be. Lets measure them and then I'll phone Lockwood for some advice / maybe a replacement.

Tony.

johnfromnorwich
19-09-09, 11:36 AM
That would be good - I'm still not happy they are right to be honest, I've been fiddling with the things again all afternoon and I just can't fix it. My suspicion is that one of the new diaphragms is a bit shite, it is very tight in the hole, so I suspect it is under a little tension that it shouldn't be which is rolling the extreme top end a little. By tight I mean tight in the recess in the back of the driver, not tight in the voice-coil gap - once it's pushed in it's pretty hard to get out again! The other just fits neatly with no pressure (this is in either speaker, i.e. the problem follows the compression driver). Something is a bit off anyway, and given these are meant to be easily field-replacable in studios by the sound engineer it certainly shouldn't be. Lets measure them and then I'll phone Lockwood for some advice / maybe a replacement.

Tony.

Tony - What you are reporting mirrors my own experience exactly! I had a replacement crossover and a new HF voice coil from BigEars but ultimately found the problem to be (primarily) the spacers. One of my coils is a little tighter too and I think the problem is still there to some minor extent. It's hard to tell for sure due to the non-ideal placement of the right cabinet (left one is in a corner, right one isn't) and the agro involved in continually shifting them around the room. Plus I'm hyper-sensitised to it. If Lockwood can provide replacement coils, I may get a new one. Note - my impedences measured almost identical left and right on both drivers.

It's a weird effect though - really hard to pin down the frequency band where the difference is. If it's there at all.....

cooky1257
19-09-09, 11:55 AM
Guy's I realise this might be a page oner but have you checked polarity of the hf after resoldering?

Jonathan Ribee
19-09-09, 11:58 AM
I've had sort of similar experiences in placing electrostatics - where the problem is rear wall refection, especially where you have different distances/corners behind each 'speaker.

To see if was mad / identify the frequencies that were a problem I'd run a sine wave frequency sweep from 20Hz to 20KHz whilst sitting in the sweet-spot / listing triangle apex and concentrate on where the image of the sound is coming from.

The image will "wobble" left and right where you have variances with each speaker and give you a rough idea what frequencies are a problem.

If nothing else, it's a way to spend a wet Sunday afternoon.

[the sweep is on the EMI Test disc - ripping suitably encoded version could be done]

Tony L
19-09-09, 12:34 PM
It's a weird effect though - really hard to pin down the frequency band where the difference is. If it's there at all.....

It is just mental as it doesn't seem to be that frequencies are missing, it's almost that there is an inconsistency dynamically, i.e. I can hear test tones out of both easily yet play a hi-hat or hf-rich synth and they sound very, very slightly different. I'll get Rob to measure them and see if that sheds any light on it. I love these speakers so I'll get them sorted in time even if it involves flinging copious amounts of money at them (i.e. getting Lockwood to rebuild them).

Plus I'm hyper-sensitised to it.

I'm the same - I have a almost compulsive side with certain things and they start to drive me mental, i.e. I'll land another copy of a record just to get one without a sticker mark on the cover etc! These Tannoys actually sound stunningly good and the vast majority of people wouldn't notice the slight discrepancy, but as it's there, and I know it's there I'll have to fix it!

Guy's I realise this might be a page oner but have you checked polarity of the hf after resoldering?

It's definitely correct - both are the same and both the way they were when I first opened them (looking at the rear of the driver with the compression driver tags oriented downwards red is right, black is left).

Tony.

Robert
19-09-09, 12:44 PM
I've also had this effect with my ESLs.
On measuring them it becomes clear that while the overall response from both speakers is similar, it does vary a little between the two across the frequency band, but only by a db or two. This is to be expected given the construction. Also because of the beaming you need to experiment a lot with positioning, including vertical tilt in order to get a decent pair match at the listening position.

I was convinced at first that one speaker was a bit brighter than the other, but after changing the tilt they are now within acceptable limits.
I think these older speakers just need a little more TLC than modern boxes with modern drivers designed using robots and measured with super-accurate test gear.

RustyB
19-09-09, 12:49 PM
I have come across tweeters with incorrectly marked polarity, but is very rare, most recently in an Elac built MA tweeter.

You can check using a small battery. I did say SMALL!

Tony L
22-09-09, 01:48 PM
Rob's been up for a visit and brought some measuring gear with him. This proved interesting. There was as I suspected a clear notch / dip in one speaker of varying degrees from around 2k to around 5k. At points this dipped seriously low (probably 6-8db) compared to the other speaker and followed a different looking path. After fiddling about with it, getting nowhere, phoning Lockwood and having a good chat with Roger, we decided to fling the better measuring of the original compression drivers back in (one was still bang in spec at 10.6 Ohm). This sorted it completely, so the problem has to be with one particular replacement diaphragm (I've aranged to send it back to Lockwood so Roger can have a look at it). My speakers are clearly fine - thank f*** for that!

Anyway they are sounding really nice at the moment, perfectly even and balanced, stable of image and also measure very nicely (the L+R response plots look very much the same now, certainly within mic-placement error). The measurements from the listening seat are remarkably good; about +/- 5db from about 35hz to 17khz with the range from 1khz upwards just astonishingly flat (about +/-2db). Very happy with that!

Tony.

Joe P
22-09-09, 02:38 PM
Excellent news, Tony.

Broken Tannoys = one very depressed administrator

Joe

trancera
22-09-09, 02:42 PM
Excellent specs at the seating position, especially in the key area. Vocals/piano/strings must be lovely you lucky man Tony :)

Tony L
22-09-09, 03:02 PM
Here's the plot with the mic at head position on the sofa:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3513/3945256119_347e1ee8a4_o.jpg

A few light bumps and dips in the bass (but I've yet to hear it boom) and nice and flat from there on in. Ignore the levels on the side, it was nothing close to 130db! The white noise was more like 75-80db, which is about the level I listen at.

Tony.

trancera
22-09-09, 03:10 PM
Very nice. Just need one of those DIY types to make a 400hz 1 bar EQ and it'd be fantastic!

I bet that rise below 100hz is pleasant :)

gortnipper
22-09-09, 03:15 PM
I bet you are happy with that plot now, arent you?

Tony L
22-09-09, 03:16 PM
I bet that rise below 100hz is pleasant :)

Oh yes, they have a lovely weight to them, very fast too, there is no overhang or 'thrum' - it's a *very* rigid infinite baffle cab so they can turn it on and off effortlessly.

Tony.

Tony L
22-09-09, 03:23 PM
I bet you are happy with that plot now, arent you?

I'm utterly astonished by it - I knew I loved the sound of these speakers, but it amazes me how flat the system measures given that the drivers are actually way below ear level. If you scroll back to the early part of the thread there are pictures of the cabs, and the top of the cabinet is exactly on eye-level, which given the sheer enormity of the driver puts the centre of the cone about 10" below that. They image really high and stick voices, kit metal work etc above them, i.e. one is never looking down into the soundstage. I'll never understand how that works!

Tony.

Mr Tibbs
22-09-09, 03:54 PM
it's a *very* rigid infinite baffle cab so they can turn it on and off effortlessly.

LOL -- How times have changed. I well remember arguing with you over the merits of a rigid cabinet with you insisting flimsy, lossy cabinets (as per your then Harbs) were the answer!

Glad you got to the bottom of the problem.

Enjoy!

Mr Tibbs

Tony L
22-09-09, 04:09 PM
LOL -- How times have changed. I well remember arguing with you over the merits of a rigid cabinet with you insisting flimsy, lossy cabinets (as per your then Harbs) were the answer!

I've not changed at all! I still think BC1s, Harbeths etc are some of the best box speakers I've heard. A lot of very clever and joined-up thinking went into those BBC cabinet designs, but it doesn't mean it's the only answer. I also don't think you could have a non-rigid IB cab much larger than a LS3/5A, however ports or horns change the rules. These Tannoy cabs are really interesting as they are just crazy over-engineered - I've never seen a commercial speaker cab built anything like the way these are (two thick sheets of ply then some aluminium). I don't have anything like enough experience with Tannoys to know whether these are good or bad cabs, but they certainly work to my ears, i.e. the speakers sound clean and don't boom. I plan to try them on some breeze blocks at some point just to lift them up a bit and get the horns firing somewhere closer to ear level.

Tony.

Robert
22-09-09, 04:52 PM
I was shocked when we got that mid/top listening plot as the listening position. Not bad for something older me and I think Tony also!

The system was superb, not only the Tannoys but the wonderful Garrard 301.
There will be a full system review with pics over on ZG in a few days, oh and some great needledrops from Garrard, an equally stunning Thorens 124 and erm .... something that works via a big spring and a horn :)

Thanks to Tony for his hospitality, and I promise to be nice about SME IIs from now on ;)

Joe P
22-09-09, 05:54 PM
Rob,

Too bad you're so far away, as I'd be very interested to see how my Tannoys measure at the listening position.

I suspect my response curve would be more like a roller coaster than Tony's plains-like response, but as Markus explained elsewhere I guess that's the price of a backloaded horn -- i.e., lots of weird reinforcements and cancellations in the lower registers.

FWIW, I find it hard to believe that I'm anywhere near the curve Tannoy claimed on the GRF brochure.

http://i41.tinypic.com/anyqex.jpg

Joe

Tony L
23-09-09, 01:01 AM
...and I promise to be nice about SME IIs from now on ;)

Indeed, SME 3009 S2 Imp in 'Not actually crap' shock! ;-)

Tony.

cooky1257
23-09-09, 09:33 AM
Well that's a relief for you.
You do build an affection for your old Tannoys-it must feel like you just made them better after being proper poorly;-)
That response at listening position is extraordinary, do you know what smoothing/averaging was applied?

johnfromnorwich
23-09-09, 09:54 AM
Tony - If I'm reading this right the problem was entirely an impedence mismatch between the the HF units in the two speakers and nothing to do with spacers, poor mechanical tolerance in one of the diaphragms or the X-over?

Tony L
23-09-09, 09:56 AM
Well that's a relief for you.
You do build an affection for your old Tannoys-it must feel like you just made them better after being proper poorly;-)
That response at listening position is extraordinary, do you know what smoothing/averaging was applied?

Yes, a huge relief. I had a nasty feeling this was going to get expensive. I sent the slightly wonky compession driver back to Lockwood earlier, if Roger agrees it is indeed wonked then that is clearly the answer. Certainly the drivers as is, i.e. one with a new diaphragm, the other with the good spec original, are sounding the same as one another and measuring the same too.

I don't have any idea what Rob was using other than it was a Beringer mic apparently designed for the task and that he had to boot his nice clean MacBook into the dirty puss-filled world of Windows to run whatever software he used.

Tony - If I'm reading this right the problem was entirely an impedence mismatch between the the HF units in the two speakers and nothing to do with spacers, poor mechanical tolerance in one of the diaphragms or the X-over?

I don't think this was the case, the sticky diaphragm that went back to Lockwood today measured 10.1 Ohm, the other (good sounding) new one that fits measures 10.4 Ohm, the good sounding original one that is now back in the speaker measures 10.6 Ohm and the off-spec original measures 12.0 Ohm. IIRC the spec is something like 10.6 +/- 1 Ohm, so only one of the original drivers was out.

The thing I certainly don't understand (...and that's Numberwang!), and neither did Rob, is how I driver can move out of spec in that direction? How can a driver that one assumes was originally in spec and sounding fine end up increasing an ohm or more in impedance? As Rob explained it to me the impedance is dictated by the number of windings on the voicecoil thingy, so why / how do they differ / alter over time? It seems to be a Tannoy 'thing' as sellers usually state the impedance for each part of the driver which implies it is not necessarily a constant.

Tony.

NeilR
23-09-09, 10:21 AM
Great stuff Tony! You must be well pleased with the result!!

And well done to Rob for helping sort out the problem.

Patrick Dixon
23-09-09, 11:09 AM
As Rob explained it to me the impedance is dictated by the number of windings on the voicecoil thingy, so why / how do they differ / alter over time?

Yes, that and the impedance of the wire (per m) used for the coil windings. So although the number of windings remains the same, the impedance per m of the wire changes as it ages - maybe if moisture gets in?

Mr Tibbs
23-09-09, 11:46 AM
Yes, that and the impedance of the wire (per m) used for the coil windings. So although the number of windings remains the same, the impedance per m of the wire changes as it ages - maybe if moisture gets in?

I wonder is it a slow breakdown of the enamel coating allowing oxidation to creep in, with some resultant reduction in conductivity?

Mr Tibbs

martin clark
23-09-09, 11:52 AM
Is there an (oxidised) connection between this removable driver VC and terminals where the impedance was measured?

Tony L
23-09-09, 12:33 PM
Is there an (oxidised) connection between this removable driver VC and terminals where the impedance was measured?

I'll take some pictures of the older type diaphragm in daylight tomorrow as I've got the off-spec one lying around. Initially I measured them 'in speaker' via the 4 pin socket where the crossover lead attaches to the driver, that was what alerted me to one being off-spec. I've since measured all four diaphragms outside of the speaker directly from the solder connections. The readings are all the same regardless of measurement location, which is great news as it indicates my 4 pin sockets are in very good condition! These can apparently be an issue on some speakers. The cosmetic condition of these speakers is truly exceptional, everything is really bright and shiny and the bass cones are immaculate and flawless, very hard to believe they are 40 years old, they have certainly never been anywhere humid.

Tony.

Robert
23-09-09, 02:51 PM
Yes, that and the impedance of the wire (per m) used for the coil windings. So although the number of windings remains the same, the impedance per m of the wire changes as it ages - maybe if moisture gets in?

They look brand new with no signs of damage, so far as I could see.

I can understand the DC resistance doing down following abuse if say overheating had shorted some of the turns, but not the DC resistance going the other way.

Also remember that this is a pair of speakers and that one measures within spec, despite both being used together and in the same conditions.

Strange!

Robert
23-09-09, 03:27 PM
Rob,

Too bad you're so far away, as I'd be very interested to see how my Tannoys measure at the listening position.


Joe

Joe, distance needn't be a problem.
I can post you the mic, cables and sound card.
Download a free copy of ARTA software and job done.

I can even tell you how to do it by phone :)

Worth doing if you have any particular concerns about what you are hearing.
The flip side is that if you already have great sound, measuring can make you paranoid if it identifies a 'problem' that isn't bothering you.
In Tony's case there was a clear balance issue.

Joe P
23-09-09, 04:14 PM
Cheers, Rob.

That's very generous of you, but given that I'm happy with the Petri-fi measuring its frequency response would be more to satisfy my inner nerd than to identify a major deficiency. I can honestly say I have no intention of upgrading and am firmly in maintenance mode.

May I file this under "might contact Rob in the future if my O-CD resurfaces." :-)

Joe

dave
23-09-09, 06:27 PM
Joe,

Could your Tannoy engineer-friend shed some light on Tony's Bearded-Spock-Diaphragm?

regards,

dave

Tony L
24-09-09, 01:49 AM
Here are a couple of pictures of the original style compression driver, this is the one that is slightly out of spec at 12 Ohms:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3485/3950264172_4a2bcb1fe3_o.jpg

View from the front, note the thin wires leading out and through the assembly.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2494/3949484793_3834cba671_o.jpg

View from the back with the felt-lined rear chamber removed (this is fixed in place on the current plastic backed type). The solder terminals can clearly be seen.

Tony.

PS the pictures don't give much indication scale, these things are bloody huge, the width of the whole assembly is somewhere around 83mm.

Patrick Dixon
24-09-09, 02:04 AM
They look brand new with no signs of damage, so far as I could see.

I can understand the DC resistance doing down following abuse if say overheating had shorted some of the turns, but not the DC resistance going the other way.

Also remember that this is a pair of speakers and that one measures within spec, despite both being used together and in the same conditions.

Strange!

With 40s/50s radios it's common for carbon resistors to go high in value and for some to be fine whilst others are way out. High value resistors tend to be the worst affected.

Not quite the same thing I appreciate, but these old components don't always age the same, presumably because manufacturing procedures were not as consistent as they are now.

Old wax/paper capacitors are terrible for going very leaky, and in valve equipment, leaky grid coupling caps destroy the output valves and transformers, so most of those get changed on sight by restorers.

Robert
24-09-09, 03:44 AM
My money's on this being a rare example of a driver that slipped through the net.
Happens, even with good QC.
Thinking about it now, the new assembly that's just been returned to Lockwood demonstrates this - fits too tight so someone hasn't been as hot on the QC as perhaps they should.

We'll never know for sure on these things.

Tony L
24-09-09, 03:54 AM
My money's on this being a rare example of a driver that slipped through the net.
Happens, even with good QC.

My feeling is that is unlikely given it is customary to state the values of the woofers and horns of vintage Tannoys when buying / selling, i.e. there is a perception in the marketplace that they can drift off-spec, though I've yet to see an explanation as to why. I don't understand why there was a difference in the brand new ones either (10.0, 10.4), I know it's far smaller values, but even so I'd have thought winding x number of turns of wire onto a voicecoil would be a simple thing to achieve these days, it's the equivalent of building a flint axe compared to say what Intel do day in, day out.

Tony.

PS I take your point regarding the fit. I'd expect a lot better given the price (just under 90 each IIRC).

QUAD405
24-09-09, 08:00 AM
Sorry, I've come rather late to this thread, what make was the RG?
I'm guessing something like a Dynatron?

Anex
24-09-09, 08:25 AM
With 40s/50s radios it's common for carbon resistors to go high in value and for some to be fine whilst others are way out. High value resistors tend to be the worst affected.

Not quite the same thing I appreciate, but these old components don't always age the same, presumably because manufacturing procedures were not as consistent as they are now.

Old wax/paper capacitors are terrible for going very leaky, and in valve equipment, leaky grid coupling caps destroy the output valves and transformers, so most of those get changed on sight by restorers.

And crappy old dielectrics can basically become part of the wire they're insulating over time. I was fixing up an old Polaroid camera the other day where it was almost impossible to distinguish between the metal and plastic, and touching a soldering iron to the metal made things even worse. The wire would now be more use a resistor than a conductor.

Robert
24-09-09, 08:38 AM
But look at the picture.
This is a clean voice coil that has probably never been more than a deg or two above ambient room temperature. Certainly not something that has been thrashed in a studio. Tony tells me the previous owner liked a diet of mellow James Last :)

Tony L
24-09-09, 09:21 AM
Tony tells me the previous owner liked a diet of mellow James Last :)

That and 'Hammond Hits' albums. I've got a Lenny Dee album, Hi-Dee-Fi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ihq177F8hyc), somewhere in my 'kitsch' section (yes, I have one, obviously), and it sounds ace on the Tannoys. This guy built a Hammond / Leslie compatible pair of speakers for sure, it sounds just like a real full size Hammond in the room with you!

Tony.

cooky1257
24-09-09, 10:58 AM
FWIW that old dia could have been off spec since day 1, also had it been paired with another of similar spec I doubt I'd notice anything amiss-this is the main reason people post the resistance readings imo to show closely matched pairs.
I've not looked at a new one in a while but there would appear to be stress lines running across the surface of the dome in which case they do look their age-that doesn't indicate abuse just 40 years of use..

Tony L
24-09-09, 11:41 AM
I've not looked at a new one in a while but there would appear to be stress lines running across the surface of the dome in which case they do look their age-that doesn't indicate abuse just 40 years of use..

The new ones look just the same, in fact one new one even had finger marks on it! (the one I've sent back).

Tony.

Patrick Dixon
24-09-09, 11:53 AM
Someone else had already rejected it ....

cooky1257
24-09-09, 12:00 PM
The new ones look just the same, in fact one new one even had finger marks on it! (the one I've sent back).

Tony.

That's interesting Tony-there's always the chance a 'return' was sent out again...
I've been scratching my head about this 'going off' and blowed if I can think of why(or if) it happens.
Those domes are so overspec'd in terms of efficiency, 110dB/w and power handling 50W, that short of driving them with high level bass signals you'll have a job blowing them.
Aluminium does fatigue over time though regardless of level applied so I'd ask for a replacement from Lockwood to bring both up to 2009 new.
Cooky

Tony L
24-09-09, 12:04 PM
Someone else had already rejected it ....

Exceptionally unlikely IMO, the pack was sealed, and Lockwood strike me as very helpful and professional indeed - it's been a real pleasure dealing with Roger as he seems happy to chat and explain things. I have learnt much in the process.

Tony.

cooky1257
24-09-09, 12:22 PM
Exceptionally unlikely IMO, the pack was sealed, and Lockwood strike me as very helpful and professional indeed - it's been a real pleasure dealing with Roger as he seems happy to chat and explain things. I have learnt much in the process.

Tony.

Yes of course, he's a great bloke to deal with-seems willing to gab all day!.
That said that HF could drop into another DC and work perfectly.
Models/samples from different eras will undoubtably vary in their assembly and manufactured tollerancing.

RustyB
24-09-09, 01:24 PM
You could try re-soldering the lead-out/terminal joints and measure again.