My first hi-fi system was a Xerxes, RB300, Koetsu Black, Naim 32.5, NAP140, Yamaha NS1000s. I loved this system and kept it unchanged for about five years. Then I started on the upgrade trail ... 82, HiCaps, 52, 250, more modern speakers, and was never happy until recently I inherited a pair of Tannoys and went valve (with a cheaper system).

From reading numerous threads I know I am not alone in this sort of experience. I would be interested in people's thoughts as to the reasons. I will kick off with two theories:

1. As you spend more money you start to be too analytical about the reproduction rather than just enjoying the music.

2. The more expensive bits of kit are more revealing of detail, and hence you hear things that you do not like, and are constantly searching for (for want of a better word) balance. The cheaper systems by resolving less detail make it easier to concentrate on the music.

Nic P

Can't agree. Really good systems just make the reproduction more 'real', timbre tone dynamics scale everything.
Keith.

Upgrading the mains changed all this. Buying more expensive kit always left me feeling shortchanged until I sorted out the mains.....now even my Nait 2 in my spare bedroom sounds lake a "baby 52".......

Mains is the answer!

laurie

1. As you spend more money you start to be too analytical about the reproduction rather than just enjoying the music.



Quite true ...


Can't agree. Really good systems just make the reproduction more 'real', timbre tone dynamics scale everything.
Keith.



And this is why alot of people get lost into the endless pursuit of more realism, because marketing led assertions that if you make something sound "real" you will enjoy the music more. I do not agree with this, all the listener will do is intellectually resolve the extra realism of the SOUND.





2. The more expensive bits of kit are more revealing of detail, and hence you hear things that you do not like, and are constantly searching for (for want of a better word) balance. The cheaper systems by resolving less detail make it easier to concentrate on the music.

Nic P

I dont think detail alone hurts listening enjoyment, I believe it is the sonical traits from too much detail extraction from poorer recordings and the distortions from recordings that distracts the listener which ruins the enjoyment of music. Good hi-fi in the real world where people are listening to recordings from the 1940s aswell as the polished productions of 2009 should all sound enjoyable.

My first hi-fi system was a Xerxes, RB300, Koetsu Black, Naim 32.5, NAP140, Yamaha NS1000s. I loved this system and kept it unchanged for about five years. Then I started on the upgrade trail ... 82, HiCaps, 52, 250, more modern speakers, and was never happy until recently I inherited a pair of Tannoys and went valve (with a cheaper system).[...]
Are you sure that it was not simply a case of your listening tastes/preferences changing with time?

Are you sure that it was not simply a case of your listening tastes/preferences changing with time?

I cannot be sure, but I suspect if I still had the original system (recapped appropriately) I would still be happy, and wouldn't have spent a *lot* of money that didn't make me happy.

Nic P

Surely, if you carefully audition the proposed 'upgrade' equipment prior to purchase, you can be sure that it is going to give you more pleasure or not ?

Quote' And this is why alot of people get lost into the endless pursuit of more realism, because marketing led assertions that if you make something sound "real" you will enjoy the music more. I do not agree with this, all the listener will do is intellectually resolve the extra realism of the SOUND.'

You would prefer instruments to sound less real? Parhaps you would prefer a cello to sound more like a kazoo?
Keith.

Surely, if you carefully audition the proposed 'upgrade' equipment prior to purchase, you can be sure that it is going to give you more pleasure or not ?

It was all bought through a dealer, with home auditions ... but I find it takes me a long time before I know whether I really like an upgrade. What is initially impressive often didn't make me happy in the longer term. E.g. it took me a year to decide I hated a CDX2 (too bright for my tastes).

Nic P

You would prefer instruments to sound less real? Parhaps you would prefer a cello to sound more like a kazoo?
Keith.
I don't think it's ever as clear-cut as that.

Beyond a certain point (the bar to entry of which is probably quite low these days) most of the differences between systems are perceptual matters of presentation than some notion of absolute accuracy. I think it's perfectly possible to have the same data and prefer one presentation to another.

And frankly, no matter how 'accurate' - if it doesn't make you happy and want to listen more, it's not working.

:
1. As you spend more money you start to be too analytical about the reproduction rather than just enjoying the music.


That IMO is the biggest pitfall of hifi. Your new kit may produce a better sound but you now have so much money / time invested in the hifi that it can never deliver to the level that you would like.

Unless your system is extremely unbalanced I think forcing yourself to step off the upgrade path for a year or two is probably the best answer: spend the money on music (or paying off the mortgage).

There are big differences between different bits of hifi kit.

unfortunately it is easy to become accustomed and acclimatised to the sound of your own system.

An upgrade every now and again is nice for the soul and they don't have to cost the earth.

I am currently looking forward to getting the latest trampolin for christmas.

Make sure you get one with high netting all around, and a decent cover for the winter months.

best cure for upgraditis is to go record or cd shopping especially buying some artists or genres you dont own and dont have preconceptions of !

Recently I bought some acoustic foam, and 'treated' my room, the improvement was incredible, and I thought I had a good room!
Honestly it will be the best couple of hundred pounds you ever spend.
Keith.

That IMO is the biggest pitfall of hifi. Your new kit may produce a better sound but you now have so much money / time invested in the hifi that it can never deliver to the level that you would like.

Everyone is different I guess, but for me this went completely when I started to 'invest' in hi-fi rather than 'spend money' on it - with the exception of running costs e.g. cartridges & tubes I very seldom spend more than I know I can get back for an item (I buy very little new). Overall I am a long way ahead financially on audio and I find this takes a lot of pressure away as I'm never sat there thinking I've lost money on something I don't like - if something doesn't meet expectations I just flip it out again without any loss. It's no big deal.

Tony.

Nic

I have empathy with what you say in your original post. Had a similar journey with Linn gear - loved the "basic" system, of Keilighs, majik active with LK100's etc for years. Then had some spare cash and moved eventually to Kisto, 350A's, Akurate DS - just couldnt justify the Klimax ds in my head!

Didnt really like what it did - which was a surprise BUT took a good number of months to come to that conclusion. Then followed a number of changes and reinventions.

Like you Im now with valves and Tannoys and am much happier? NEVER would say that it wont change - its too fickle a hobby.

Steve.

you guys worry too much. Get something old banged up and restore it. or DIY. Aside from the satisfaction of pulling stuff back from the landfill and pouring love and devotion into something someone had thrown out, its a reality check on just how little things have progressed sonically in HiFi since the introduction of Solid State.

i suppose that the main reason for being unhappy with an upgrade is that in some way it was probably a downgrade.

sometimes upgrades can reveal deficiencies in other parts of the system, like when your speakers are too good for you front end.

The lure of greater clarity (or mid transparency) can sometimes render you deaf to the losses in other areas.

It sometimes takes time for you to notice what you are missing.

You would prefer instruments to sound less real? Parhaps you would prefer a cello to sound more like a kazoo?
Keith.

I prefer music to be communicated, not sit there listening a collection of sounds in a stereo image and say to myself hmm, that cello sounds realistic.

A cheap radio can make a cello sound like a cello, not a kazoo, you can enjoy music through non-hifi sources if the fundamentals of the music and the performance is communicated well enough.

I prefer music to be communicated, not sit there listening a collection of sounds in a stereo image and say to myself hmm, that cello sounds realistic.

A cheap radio can make a cello sound like a cello, not a kazoo, you can enjoy music through non-hifi sources if the fundamentals of the music and the performance is communicated well enough.

pardon !

pardon !

What is it you dont understand Daryl?

The radio comment? You can most of the time know what instruments are being played in a passage of music, you can hear and understand the lyrics of a vocalist too?

While the outright realism isnt there, the communication is and hence you can still enjoy and be moved by music.

What is it you dont understand Daryl?

The radio comment? You can most of the time know what instruments are being played in a passage of music, you can hear and understand the lyrics of a vocalist too?

While the outright realism isnt there, the communication is and hence you can still enjoy and be moved by music.

Exactly, try CD review on R3, it's dead easy to spot the differences between the various choices. One of the best introductions to classical music I can think of.

Coming up this Saturday, Bruckner 5.

Everyone is different I guess, but for me this went completely when I started to 'invest' in hi-fi rather than 'spend money' on it - with the exception of running costs e.g. cartridges & tubes I very seldom spend more than I know I can get back for an item (I buy very little new). Overall I am a long way ahead financially on audio and I find this takes a lot of pressure away as I'm never sat there thinking I've lost money on something I don't like - if something doesn't meet expectations I just flip it out again without any loss. It's no big deal.

Tony.

Good for you, but not everyone can do this. Someone out there has to be buying tomorrows second-hand bargains. I've bought a mix of new and used, but I tend to hang on to things for a long time (Densen B-100 pushing 12 years now) so VFM is pretty high.

I remember thinking lots of good stuff would show up on Audiogon as the recession pushed on, but actually I see less stuff there now. My guess is this is because finances are forcing people to stick with what they have rather tha churn to the latest and greatest.

Anh get someone to come around to your house and practise playing the Cello in your front room, my aim is to record that cello play it back and the playback to be as close to the original 'sound' as possible.
A radio will not do that.

From reading numerous threads I know I am not alone in this sort of experience. I would be interested in people's thoughts as to the reasons. I will kick off with two theories:

1. As you spend more money you start to be too analytical about the reproduction rather than just enjoying the music.

2. The more expensive bits of kit are more revealing of detail, and hence you hear things that you do not like, and are constantly searching for (for want of a better word) balance. The cheaper systems by resolving less detail make it easier to concentrate on the music.

Nic P

There is something more fundamental, I think.

If you like what you hear with what you have why bother up-grading anyway?

? because you can afford to;

? because you read Hi-fi mags or internet forums and feel somehow inadequate;

? because you read Hi-fi mags or internet forums and want to show how much disposable income you have; ?or...

Anh get someone to come around to your house and practise playing the Cello in your front room, my aim is to record that cello play it back and the playback to be as close to the original 'sound' as possible.
A radio will not do that.

I think he knows that.



While the outright realism isnt there, the communication is and hence you can still enjoy and be moved by music.

keith there are some very, very good radio sources out there, can be as satisfying as CD if done well. Obviously we aren't talking tabletop stuff here but Day-Sequera, Naim Natos, Tag mclaren/Audiolab tuners, these are all hifidelity greats.

Until they turn off the last of the FM transmitters!

Although I'm not as concerned as I used to be, the sound I'm getting from my computer from R3's iPlayer console is very good.

Don't believe me? Try this, about 50 minutes in, enjoy!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b00npndb

I prefer music to be communicated, not sit there listening a collection of sounds in a stereo image and say to myself hmm, that cello sounds realistic.

A cheap radio can make a cello sound like a cello, not a kazoo, you can enjoy music through non-hifi sources if the fundamentals of the music and the performance is communicated well enough.

I think I know where you are coming from here..I have listened and really enjoyed some really "Cheap" equipment over the decades I have been alive..I remember so vividly and old Rogers Valve Mono Radio not so many years ago which could almost make me cry listening to it, just for the emotive content it seemed to have. No way was it Hi-Fi or accurate, just lovely and involving..a lot, not all, of Hi-Fi, really expensive Hi-Fi leaves me cold and totally uninvolved..I think maybe it depends on your personal make up and what pushes your buttons aurally, with me it is an emotive trigger, I can listen to some music on my T.V. and be totally taken by it, knowing it is Low Fi..and not really caring..and then again maybe I dont know what I am talking about, it is all such a personal experience, we all listen for different things. Hi-Fi reproduction is not an exact science given the multitude of other parts it has to hook up to and the various environments it has to work in....sometimes I look at my upstairs room and ponder the multitude of Expensive pieces of equipment I have in there, now not used, and just wonder....which particular colour of Rainbow was I chasing all those years..

There is something more fundamental, I think.

If you like what you hear with what you have why bother up-grading anyway?

? because you can afford to;

? because you read Hi-fi mags or internet forums and feel somehow inadequate;

? because you read Hi-fi mags or internet forums and want to show how much disposable income you have; ?or...

Perhaps to state the obvious...?

The reason I upgrade is for the thrill of hearing all of my familiar well-worn albums in a new light, the same music but better, performed to a standard I've never heard before. It's like a drug hit though (I imagine) - the first album after a significant upgrade is complete bliss, the next few are wonderful, etc, after a few weeks I get used to my system sounding that way and it is more routine. I still enjoy the music but don't get that hifi "thrill". However, even after no changes for a couple of years, when I play an old neglected album I can tell if it's the first time I've heard it with the latest upgrade.

The problem is, as well as the "hit" becoming less with time from the upgrade, you generally have to spend more and more money for the next upgrade to have an equivalent effect.

Mark

There is something more fundamental, I think.

If you like what you hear with what you have why bother up-grading anyway?

? because you can afford to;

? because you read Hi-fi mags or internet forums and feel somehow inadequate;

? because you read Hi-fi mags or internet forums and want to show how much disposable income you have; ?or...

...because we're (let's be sexist and say most of us are) men within a consumerist society and feel the need to have new toys to research/choose between/purchase/install/tweak/enjoy?

I look around at my male peers and for the vast majority, this holds true for one product type or another - be it hifi, computers (newest/best graphics card anyone - ati vs nvidia - different heatsinks for overclocking?), bikes (titanium?), tv/home cinema, cars, camera (my mates - and my - new cameras are far more retrained by our own ability than the technology, yet upgrade...upgrade..)

Rob

Upgrading the mains changed all this. Buying more expensive kit always left me feeling shortchanged until I sorted out the mains.....now even my Nait 2 in my spare bedroom sounds lake a "baby 52".......

Mains is the answer!

laurie

How do you upgrade the mains? Thanks.

P.s. Hifi isn’t a science, it’s a skill and sometimes a game – of chance. Particularly upgrading. It’s very easy to make mistakes, speaking from personal experience. Having said that, “hi end” manufacturers make mistakes all the time. You’ve got to filter out the bullshit with this lot, them and the journalist, and sales people (the latter includes the general public on Ebay).

K.

Anh get someone to come around to your house and practise playing the Cello in your front room, my aim is to record that cello play it back and the playback to be as close to the original 'sound' as possible.
A radio will not do that.

I rather listen to a well played instrument through a radio than listen to someone simply practising it in front of my face.

The performance is more important than the actual fidelity...IMO of course.

Besides, I listen to a wide variety of music, many are badly recorded or limited in resolution and dynamic range, so the chase for outright realism through hifi is rather self defeating in that context.

i feel you are spouting linn / naim dealer doctrine from way back !

the fact is a piece of tut radio "will" make a cello sound like a kazoo if you personally dont want to hear what was on the tape then thats fine buy what you enjoy. its strange to see you reinforcing the naim style upgrades on power supplies though especially if you get all the music you need from a crappy radio.
it does prove that the enjoyment of music has nothing to do with fidelity though.
enjoyment has more to do with state of mind than the gear.

my advice via upgrades will be my fave link.

http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/art_audio_hell.shtml

very worth reading if your into upgrading.

I bet Mrs C was ecstatic about the new acoustic foam on the living room walls (sorry, demonstration studio 1) :)

I rather listen to a well played instrument through a radio than listen to someone simply practising it in front of my face.

The performance is more important than the actual fidelity...IMO of course.

Besides, I listen to a wide variety of music, many are badly recorded or limited in resolution and dynamic range, so the chase for outright realism through hifi is rather self defeating in that context.

Anh that is great if it is only the performance you are interested in, and I have some musician friends who feel exactly the same way, then an expensive hifi i( or any hi-fi for that matter )s not necessary for you.
I am afraid I am rather more nerdy than that and really want to recreate the entire 'sound' of that instrument in my 'listening studio 1' front room!
Mrs C did lift her eyes skyward when the foam arrived!
Keith.

We wake up to the sound of a Tivoli radio and I am constantly amazed at how I am hearing really bouncy, clear bass lines for the first time in old records that I thought I knew very well. The diference between violin and viola is also very clear.

One of the most realistic sounding systems that I've ever heard were some big Acoustic Research valve muscle amps, valve pre going through some very large panel speakers back in the late 1980's. It was all there laid out in front of you, but I just couldn't get into the performance and what the musicians were trying to comunicate.

An LP12, Naim, Kans didn't sound like the musicians were playing in the room but comunicated the music much better. I guess the earth really is flat.

also a roksan xerxes / ion obelisk 2 / epos es-11 which would have shown the linn naim set up a trick or too , its even more flat earth.

i feel you are spouting linn / naim dealer doctrine from way back !


Who me?

Anh that is great if it is only the performance you are interested in, and I have some musician friends who feel exactly the same way, then an expensive hifi i( or any hi-fi for that matter )s not necessary for you.
I am afraid I am rather more nerdy than that and really want to recreate the entire 'sound' of that instrument in my 'listening studio 1' front room!
Mrs C did lift her eyes skyward when the foam arrived!
Keith.


Well I wouldn't call my Naim set up expensive or hi-end, most of the older music still sounds like a recording when played through it, it's just my so-called hifi makes the performances a little more enjoyable than a say my car radio or computer speakers.

So it's not all just about the perfomance then?

So it's not all just about the perfomance then?

Hmm, well it still is. For example if I want to fully enjoy percussion based music, then power, transient response and dynamics is needed, a humble radio or computer speakers usually cannot do enough justice, on the other hand female voices, light instruments, melodies are communicated well enough.

did you read the link on audio notes site anh ?

what are your opinions of this ?

http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/art_audio_hell.shtml

in case you have not read it ......

did you read the link on audio notes site anh ?

what are your opinions of this ?

http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/art_audio_hell.shtml

in case you have not read it ......

Yes I have read it, I agree with the general message.

I am sure there are plenty who disagree as some will like focus on re-creating the event in their listening room and continue to anaylse the realism of it instead of listening to the actual music. The recording may have captured a perfectly good performance of the musicians but the audiophile throws a hissy fit because the instrument placement isn't as far away as he thinks it should be. :p

I'm not sure if I want to recreate the event in my living room, given the last couple of large gigs I've been to have had people chucking plastic cups full of p*** into the crowd!

I don't think either approach to appreciating music reproduction is 'wrong' - tastes vary and as long as you enjoy your system nothing else matters. I can't understand the evangelical desire to win others over to your own tastes though...

I've recently been comparing some newly purchased NVA amps with the Naims I've had for 14 years. I can definitely see what each of them does well - in an ideal world I'd like to keep both to choose between depending on my mood.
However from the tone of many within this thread or others it seems I've little choice but to choose between being a Naim-hater or (insert other manufacturers name)-hater?

Rob

I'm not sure if I want to recreate the event in my living room, given the last couple of large gigs I've been to have had people chucking plastic cups full of p*** into the crowd!

I don't think either approach to appreciating music reproduction is 'wrong' - tastes vary and as long as you enjoy your system nothing else matters. I can't understand the evangelical desire to win others over to your own tastes though...

I've recently been comparing some newly purchased NVA amps with the Naims I've had for 14 years. I can definitely see what each of them does well - in an ideal world I'd like to keep both to choose between depending on my mood.
However from the tone of many within this thread or others it seems I've little choice but to choose between being a Naim-hater or (insert other manufacturers name)-hater?

Rob


You are quite right, but I don't see anyone trying to win over the other in this thread.

There are two very contrasting viewpoints, mine vs Purite Audio/Keith but it is all in good spirit.

One of the most realistic sounding systems that I've ever heard were some big Acoustic Research valve muscle amps, valve pre going through some very large panel speakers back in the late 1980's. It was all there laid out in front of you, but I just couldn't get into the performance and what the musicians were trying to comunicate.

How long did you have to listen to it?... the bigness of that kind of sound takes some getting used to. Also, if in too small a listening environment that kind of system would be completely overwhelming.

If you're talking huge panels, that would probably be maggie MG3s - I once observed a dealer struggling to find enough clean watts to feed a pair of the "smaller" 2.5Rs.

And the small matter of the electricity bill is another thing entirely... like a swinning pool, this is the kind of thing that is best owned by a close friend.

I prefer music to be communicated, not sit there listening a collection of sounds in a stereo image and say to myself hmm, that cello sounds realistic.

A cheap radio can make a cello sound like a cello, not a kazoo, you can enjoy music through non-hifi sources if the fundamentals of the music and the performance is communicated well enough.

Hear, bloody hear!

If you're not careful it is easy to lose track of the fact that the object of the exercise is to enjoy music.

Given the choice between swapping my kit for a boombox & keeping my music collection or getting a superb, high end system & losing my collection, no contest. Bye bye hi fi.

Chris

You are quite right, but I don't see anyone trying to win over the other in this thread.

There are two very contrasting viewpoints, mine vs Purite Audio/Keith but it is all in good spirit.

Anh, I don't think you have to choose it is perfectly possible to have everything.
Keith.

Anh, I don't think you have to choose it is perfectly possible to have everything.
Keith.

I am not doubting the musicality or the quality of your gear, but when there are many recordings with great music that do not sound realistic at all, having the highest fidelity wont help matters in that context.

ANH Hi, would you agree that if your system can reproduce the human voice accurately, has the dynamics, tone timbre and bass to reproduce real instruments then it might have a fair chance of replaying anything, even 'great music that do not sound realistic at all' whatever that is?
Keith.

I'm not sure if I want to recreate the event in my living room, given the last couple of large gigs I've been to have had people chucking plastic cups full of p*** into the crowd!

That sounds just some threads on PFM!

That sounds just some threads on PFM!

Sedative for Mr Hutch!

;)

ANH Hi, would you agree that if your system can reproduce the human voice accurately, has the dynamics, tone timbre and bass to reproduce real instruments then it might have a fair chance of replaying anything, even 'great music that do not sound realistic at all' whatever that is?
Keith.

OK, example:

Take an average recording from the 60's and early 70's, you can clearly hear grain, distortion and the limitations of the recording. Put say some Marvin Gaye or some old Roxy Music numbers on ...

Replay it in a ruthlessly revealing audiophile system and it will sound like a recording from the 60's and early 70s - because that is precisely what it is.

Yes....and

Yes....and

Yes ... and, that can make the musical experience less enjoyable than on a less revealing system.

In a previous posting you said you can have everything ... and that was my state of mind when I kept upgrading and not being happy, because I found I couldn't have everything. More revealing, more accurate more ... didn't make me happy. Obviously my view isn't one a hi-fi dealer is going to want to be widely adopted.

Nic P

So the less you hear the happier you are? Nic I am almost certain you will not be upgrading to the Euros 60k speakers I sell, so really I am not all that fussed, but this 'resolution is spoiling my hifi' is just nonsense.
I imagined this was a 'hi-fidelity' forum no?

How do you upgrade the mains? Thanks..

K.


Are you being serious or sarcastic? I'm not being funny; if the former, there are a lot of people on here who can advise. It's probably, for higher end users especially, the most cost-effective upgrade anyone can make, assuming it's feasible, of course.

So the less you hear the happier you are? Nic I am almost certain you will not be upgrading to the Euros 60k speakers I sell, so really I am not all that fussed, but this 'resolution is spoiling my hifi' is just nonsense.
I imagined this was a 'hi-fidelity' forum no?

Sorry but it is your statement that is nonsense. I recall when I had a Naim CDX CD player with the external power supply. I was looking to upgrade it as the CD performance of my system was still well below the vinyl side. I borrowed a CDS2 from my dealer who cam round and installed it using my XPS to power it and ran the CDX with its own internal power supply. After trying several tracks in both systems I came to the conclusion that the CDS2 was retrieving significantly more detail from the disc (i.e. more resolving power) but that the CDX was significantly more musically enjoyable (i.e. it seemed to capture more of the emotional content of the music). Hence more resolution can indeed spoil the musical enjoyment of the system in some circumstances. I eventually found a CD player that provided the extra detail without losing the musical message.

. Now that's not an option so I stare at my speakers and I wonder... should they go up 1 cm at the front and if so on what, perhaps the floor needs a carpet, does the tv stand interfere with the acoustics, will her 5 year old son put his hand through the cone, some kind of hydra maybe the electricity's to blame. and all this to listen to music that was originally recorded muddy.

I never worry about stuff like that. Instead, I worry about the cost of replacing valves, whether the valves need re-biasing, etc etc.

Obviously it isn't 'nonsense' because , ' I eventually found a CD player that provided the extra detail without losing the musical message.'
Which was rather my point!

I'm not sure if I want to recreate the event in my living room

As to the dispute here- a transistor radio can be as enjoyable as a high end system...... can reproduce cello just as well etc.
That would be an overstatement of the case. I wager modest separates from Richer sounds accompanied by large quantities of intoxicants can match a high end system listened to straight.

So the less you hear the happier you are? Nic I am almost certain you will not be upgrading to the Euros 60k speakers I sell, so really I am not all that fussed, but this 'resolution is spoiling my hifi' is just nonsense.
I imagined this was a 'hi-fidelity' forum no?

My original system - Xerxes, RB300, Koetsu Black, Naim 32.5, 140, NS1000Ms wasn't exactly low fi. It was the journey to superfi I found so unsatisfactory. I had great service from hi-fi dealers, but ultimately they made profit and I wasn't happy with my (many) systems.

Nic P

Ni Hi that is a cracking system , did you ever post your 'superfi' system?
Keith.

I said many years ago that the time to get off the upgrade merry-go-round is when you can come home from your friends', or from a concert, and still be pleased to hear music played on your own system.

That point was passed many years, and a few upgrades, ago!

Many of my upgrades have been through equipment reaching the end of its life; so 'new' loudspeakers after foam surrounds disintegrated, 'new' cd player when the last one died, new turntable and arm to get the best from the new cartridge that replaced the last one...

I've always been happy with these 'forward steps': I avoided inefficient speakers becaue most amplifier makers know just one amplifier circuit and only how to make it bigger, more expensive and worse. I look for the less obvious path, avoid the established 'high end' and wait until the upgrade improvement is so obvious that its rightness it can no longer be denied.

Ni Hi that is a cracking system , did you ever post your 'superfi' system?
Keith.

In an earlier posting I gave some details. I went up the Naim ladder - 82 with one HiCap, then two, then 52, one 250 and then biamped. Speakers went to electrostatic hybrids from BKS and then Wilson Benesch Arcs. CD players were CDS1 and Theta Data Basic transport and DAC and CDX2/XPS (Yuk!), Xerxes/artemiz/Koetsu Red signature/Groove. Now I am happy with Tannoy and valves fed by an Acoustic Precision Eikos and my Xerxes, but still find the level of detail can occasionally detract from the music (see Anh posts). My feeling is that once you get much beyond my original system then it gets increasingly hard to own a system that you are really happy with. No hi-fi dealer is going to persuade you to be happy with what you have got, and will try their best to help you towards audio nirvana. I am just trying to warn people to be careful about following that path.

Nic P

Yes....and

The implications are obvious Keith, with all due respect. :)

They sound like 70's records? Which is what they are. Tannoys aren't bad speakers though are they and certainly more my idea of what a speaker should sound like compared to your others.

ANH Hi, would you agree that if your system can reproduce the human voice accurately, has the dynamics, tone timbre and bass to reproduce real instruments then it might have a fair chance of replaying anything, even 'great music that do not sound realistic at all' whatever that is?
Keith.

HiFi is no nearer replicating hearing than Photography is capable of replicating sight, its all in the beholder.

Really! A good recording and a truly capable system come pretty close.
Keith.

you guys worry too much. Get something old banged up and restore it. or DIY. Aside from the satisfaction of pulling stuff back from the landfill and pouring love and devotion into something someone had thrown out, its a reality check on just how little things have progressed sonically in HiFi since the introduction of Solid State.

Quite right. The secret to enjoying hi-fi is to stop caring so much. Once you have something that sounds 'about right' and isn't actively irritating, it's not really worth going any further.

Andrew

Quite right. The secret to enjoying hi-fi is to stop caring so much. Once you have something that sounds 'about right' and isn't actively irritating, it's not really worth going any further.

Andrew

For me this would have been the answer. I also think Tony L's approach of buying second hand and vintage kit that can be moved on for little or no financial loss is a way to get variety without getting uptight about all the money you have invested in your system.

Nic P

Anh, I don't think you have to choose it is perfectly possible to have everything.
Keith.

Really? I think you need to expand on what you mean.

A lot of recordings sound exactly like that ... recordings. I'm struggling to understand how any system will make them sound other than what they are ... which is recordings - very enjoyable recordings of very enjoyable performances very often, but they are what they are. The notion that something could make Iggy and The Stooges Raw Power sound "real" is a bizarre one.

A lot of HiFi "philiosophy" seems to work on the assumption that with the right gear, everything should sound "real". I think this is plainly false and it's pursuit is possibly where some of us go astray. Sure some recordings can sound real ... well almost, but what can we do about recordings which are never going to sound real whatever they are played on? Enjoyable is all we can strive for in those circumstances, else you will wind up in a situation where the system picks the music for you.

I think sometimes a little perspective is in order as to what exactly is achievable given that not all source material is born equal. Does this or that system sound "real" is a perfectly legitimate question to ask but only in the context of some recordings. If the source material precludes the possibility, then so is asking whether it portrays the recording in a way you find enjoyable - or does it communicate to you. In the case of something like Raw Power it's the only question that actually makes sense at all. We don't all enjoy the same things.

Obviously it isn't 'nonsense' because , ' I eventually found a CD player that provided the extra detail without losing the musical message.'
Which was rather my point!

In a different system which is rather mine. Absolute statements such as the one you made are nonsense whenever there is any element of human perception involved because they do not allow for the differences in how we each perceive things.

Actually that was your statement, I just quoted you.

Are you being serious or sarcastic? I'm not being funny; if the former, there are a lot of people on here who can advise. It's probably, for higher end users especially, the most cost-effective upgrade anyone can make, assuming it's feasible, of course.

I’ve been dabbling with hifi: buying, selling, working in retail in Britain for “one of the 5 best hifi shops in the world” and in Southern Germany in another highly reputed retail outlet, for over the past 30 years approx. I’ve managed to get a very satisfying hifi set up together, which included some expensive mistakes along the way, despite being on the “inside”: having almost unlimited opportunity to try lots stuff out whenever, wherever.
But when it comes to mains I use a reasonably priced 6-way mains adaptor made and sold by the Naim importers in Germany, where I live right now. So when you say “mains upgrade”, would that mean dabbling around with various mains adaptors? A lot of which are ridiculously priced. Or would that mean trying out different mains leads? In my case I would have to internally rewire my electronics, which I’m not mad about. Or (like one of my X work mates suggested) change the fuse in the fuse box to the old fashioned 16 amp ceramic version and rewire the adaptor with a thicker gauge cable, surpassing the socket and directly solder into the wall… etc. Or would mains upgrade mean a combination of the above. The reason I haven’t started tearing the walls apart because I’m quite chuffed with the way the set up finally sounds and living in Germany is the other spanner in the works: the minute you start DIYing the mains you’ve cancelled out your insurance cover and guarantee, which I don’t give too much of a toss about, but the fact is: I’m terrified of bare wires, especially sticking out of walls. But I’m open to ideas.

I’m a relatively new member to this forum, I was always of the opinion that I would never be a member of a forum that would have me as a member, but I’ve learned a hell of a lot and no dude can really know it all – like me, with mains.
I’m open to suggestions. And no, I’m not being sarcastic.
Kanwar.

buy used, buy things that keep their value, buy things with good reviews from a number of different sources, and buy products wit an emphasis on musicality. You'll most likely be happy, and if not, can sell it for near what you paid.

As I'm sure you well know I was refering to the original statement I had quoted from you reproduced here.
this 'resolution is spoiling my hifi' is just nonsense.
I explained how when I tried a Naim CDS2 vs my Naim CDX that for all the additional resolving power of the CDS2 the musical enjoyment was degraded (spoiling the hifi was the term you used but lets take that as reducing enjoyment of the music which was the point of the original poster). That is why I consider the tenet of your original statement which seems to be that greater resolving power is always a good thing to be nonsense. There are no absolutes where humans are involved (except death and taxes). Dismissing in the way you did the possibility that chasing ever greater resolution of your hifi system may not actually improve your enjoyment of the music makes no sense whatsoever..........unless you are a dealer perhaps ;-)

I am still struggling to understand how, reproducing an instrument to sound more like a 'real' instrument can spoil, your musical enjoyment, is this is this some sort of Linn 'tune dem 'thing?
Keith.

I am still struggling to understand how, reproducing an instrument to sound more like a 'real' instrument can spoil, your musical enjoyment, is this is this some sort of Linn 'tune dem 'thing?
Keith.

Hey, would you rather have a plastic barbie with big fake tits and blonde hair or a nice demure real girl. :D

Can I have a minute to think about it?

Can I have a minute to think about it?

Sure, do you want me to tell your wife? :D

It's the kind of thing I have come to expect from you!

I am still struggling to understand how, reproducing an instrument to sound more like a 'real' instrument can spoil, your musical enjoyment, is this is this some sort of Linn 'tune dem 'thing?
Keith.

When your system resolves well enough to spot deficiencies in the performance, recording and production of a recording, then this can be unpleasant to some people's ears. Likewise a system where some components resolve the inadequacies in equipment earlier in the chain, this can also lead to unhappiness. "More detail is better" is not IMO a truism.

Nic P

It's the kind of thing I have come to expect from you!

I do aim to to fulfil the (low) expectations people have. Behave, or I'll post some photos here. :D

i dont understand this obsession of hi fi buffs about detail.
why are you listening out for detail ?
detail is technically a description of a "grain" of sound similar to digital photography, something that can be isolated by your ears as if you are improving resolution but in real terms when listening to naturally occuring sound this does not happen.

if anyone has played with an old analogue synth you can normally adjust individual parameters of the attack decay sustain and release of a sound to great effect and that makes big changes on how the music or sound flows or attacks but this again is different to detail.

detail is an artifice that does'nt exist in musical descriptions or notated scoring.

sometimes learing about the hi fi system from the ground up can help.

re thinking about the definite things you know as opposed to the things you dont can help focus your choices.

for instance we know for a fact that jimi hendrix playing an over driven strat in a studio in the states should sound totally different to a vocal choir of monks recorded in a church.
so it stands that once you have found a system you like and enjoy , you need to choose upgrades using two choices.
first the system that reveals the most differences in the two recordings is technically the most accurate at reproducing sounds as we factually know the recordings should sound very different; this is the logic bit.
secondly wether or not one or the other upgrades makes you want to listen to your hi fi more or go turn on the telly, it really is that simple.

I don't listen for detail but resolution, I want to hear more of the cymbals decay,I want to hear whole presence of the piano, you need imho physically big speakers to reproduce with some faithfullness a piano, cello double bass.
Keith.

listening for resolution sounds to me just as alien.

listening to it for musical reasons is the only one that makes sense.

accuracy should never be able to sound worse .... its illogical .

some people on here seem to be saying that the birds chirping in the trees would sound more musical with a bandwidth limiting woolen sock put over the little guys head.

so much for fidelity.

Interesting to hear Dylan be so disparaging about cd releases of recording intended for vinyl. Highway 61 a great case in point, an incredibly important album. Released on cd, it probably woudn't have worked. So having a high end equipment that enables you to hear all 20 musicians in a way that they were never supposed to be heard (including a guy on hammond organ who had never played hammond organ?) must be just as counter-productive?

I have to disagree. I want to hear what's on the mastertape as closely as possible. That's why, although I can get huge enjoyment out of listening to stuff on the cheapest & nastiest kit, I nonetheless spent silly money on a decent system.

And, incidently, one of the things that makes "Highway 61" so great is the fact that Al Kooper was just literally making it up as he went along.

Ther releases wren't intended for vinyl. Vinyl is all that there was.

Chris

listening for resolution sounds to me just as alien.

listening to it for musical reasons is the only one that makes sense.

accuracy should never be able to sound worse .... its illogical .

some people on here seem to be saying that the birds chirping in the trees would sound more musical with a bandwidth limiting woolen sock put over the little guys head.

so much for fidelity.

It's called "euphony", and it is the sworn enemy of true high fidelity. How people listening to a SET can even begin to call it "musical" is just beyond me.

Chris

My reason for upgrade unhappiness - paid for item on Tuesday and they haven't got off their arse and shipped it yet. Thanks. Now I'm unhappy.