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  #181  
Old 21-04-17, 03:30 AM
Julf Julf is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Errol View Post
I certainly understand that, however that does not change the essence of his statement.
That "design deficient" amps can have the sound changed with a different cable.
That is not what I read. This is what he wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BE718 View Post
The mains cable doesn't render the amp deficient.

It is the alleged requirement for the cable to correct for the amps deficiency in coping with subtle mains condition variations.
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  #182  
Old 21-04-17, 03:32 AM
Errol Errol is offline
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Originally Posted by BE718 View Post
Its not an opinion its a fact. If the amp is affected by the difference that a mains cable could cause to the mains conditions then it is deficient in the area of psu, psrr and emc.
With a few changes of adjective opinion I will ask again.

This means that a design deficient amp can have the sound changed by a different mains cable.

Mr ED.
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  #183  
Old 21-04-17, 03:48 AM
Julf Julf is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Errol View Post
This means that a design deficient amp can have the sound changed by a different mains cable.
I think you are missing the word "if" in "If the amp is affected by the difference that a mains cable could cause to the mains conditions then it is deficient in the area of psu, psrr and emc."

So back to the non sequitur. If an amp is somehow affected by a mains cable, then it is deficient. But just because an amp can be deficient, it doesn't imply that the mains cable does in fact affect it.
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  #184  
Old 21-04-17, 03:51 AM
davidsrsb davidsrsb is offline
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Many years ago, I worked with a networking product. We found that using shielded mains cables allowed us to pass the FCC Class B instead of just FCC Class A standard.
This was actually cheating, because the shielded cable was basically bonding to the metal tables and floor of the test chamber. Real buildings don't have a RF ground to bond to, the earth wire in your mains sockets is hot with RF. Because of this, the use of shielded cables was discouraged.
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  #185  
Old 21-04-17, 04:08 AM
Errol Errol is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julf View Post
I think you are missing the word "if" in "If the amp is affected by the difference that a mains cable could cause to the mains conditions then it is deficient in the area of psu, psrr and emc."

So back to the non sequitur. If an amp is somehow affected by a mains cable, then it is deficient. But just because an amp can be deficient, it doesn't imply that the mains cable does in fact affect it.
It also means that the mains cable may or may not affect the amp does it not?
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  #186  
Old 21-04-17, 04:30 AM
Julf Julf is online now
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Originally Posted by Errol View Post
It also means that the mains cable may or may not affect the amp does it not?
It doesn't really address that. But "X may or may not Y" is of course always true.

(X) or (not X) = true.
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  #187  
Old 21-04-17, 04:37 AM
Errol Errol is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julf View Post
It doesn't really address that. But "X may or may not Y" is of course always true.

(X) or (not X) = true.
This is also known as a wriggle out.

But it's our Mr BE who needs to up front here, or is he out to lunch.
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  #188  
Old 21-04-17, 04:55 AM
Sue Pertwee-Tyr Sue Pertwee-Tyr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BE718 View Post
The mockery is due to the blanket excuse of "stress or fatigue" to discredit any kind of test. That's why its summarily dismissed.

While there may be a percentage of people that react this way, its simply not credible that its enough of a problem to invalidate any kind of testing. Its also not credible to insist it would mask any significant difference for a wide range of individuals. If you really do need to be in a Zen like state and had months of exposure to the system prior to being able to discern a difference, then its difficult to take said difference seriously as being of any significance whatsoever.
Even if it is personally significant to an extremist audiophile.
Interesting that you think it is not credible (I see you've rowed back from 'obvious' that most people are unaffected) as I would say it is not obvious at all and, instead is highly credible.

I would suggest that it is possible (perhaps likely) that a sizeable proportion consider themselves immune to this phenomenon whereas in reality they respond much the same as those of us who are aware of this tendency in ourselves, they simply haven’t recognised it. It’s a question of self-awareness, just like the question of acknowledging the susceptibility to unconscious bias in sighted listening tests.

My suspicion would be that this is a continuum, with ‘totally/highly immune’ as outliers at one end ‘totally/highly susceptible’ as outliers at the other end, and most of us somewhere in the middle zone of the bell curve.

So much of human behaviour is a continuum, from sexuality, intelligence, emotional intelligence and innumerable other characteristics. My suspicion is that sensual perception in its various forms will be another. Some people are more acutely aware of timing issues when they arise in a music signal, others are more sensitive to pitch than usual, and so-on.

The 'zen like state' thing is just a device of your own to permit you to indulge in further ridicule. It has never been claimed or suggested and using it undermines your credibility, because if you have inferred that then you have misunderstood, and if you haven't, it is trolling.

Those on here who say ‘I’ve never perceived this, I therefore discount those who claim they have, as misguided’ would do well to ponder this, IMHO
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  #189  
Old 21-04-17, 05:11 AM
Ragaman Ragaman is offline
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let's take BE & others views as fact for a minute,

The claim being , if the mains cable improves performance of the amp, the amp has deficiencies the cable rectifies, this is the stance, has been repeated many times here.

Having in mind you are very happy with your current gear but the mains lead improves matters, which the most viable option available to us.

As I see it, there are a few options available.

option 1/ buy a better amp with no guarantee the amp will be immune to such deficiencies, could cost hundreds, could be thousands, no way of knowing until the amp is tested.

option 2/ search for a second hand option until you finally, after testing each & every amp for said deficiency, you finally find a winner, could cost hundreds, thousands maybe.

Option 3/ buy a regenerator to rectify the deficiency, hundreds more pounds spent.

Option 4/ spend £7 on a home made Belden cable as I did & deal with the deficiency this way.
Obviously all my amps suffer this deficiency, all have been proven to sound better once the cable is inserted so deficiency rectified.

Option 5/ Do nothing, the amp works fine, deficiency or not with a mind that the amp could be improved for as little as £7.
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  #190  
Old 21-04-17, 05:24 AM
Julf Julf is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Errol View Post
This is also known as a wriggle out.
Just pointing out the faults in your logic.
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  #191  
Old 21-04-17, 05:35 AM
Julf Julf is online now
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Originally Posted by Sue Pertwee-Tyr View Post
Those on here who say ‘I’ve never perceived this, I therefore discount those who claim they have, as misguided’ would do well to ponder this, IMHO
Sure, but I don't think there are that many of them here.

I would never assume that just because I don't perceive something, someone else won't be able to perceive it either. I think many of us agree that the people who have perceived a difference in power cables truly have perceived a difference. We just disagree about the causes, and point to both engineering research as to why.
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  #192  
Old 21-04-17, 05:59 AM
BE718 BE718 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragaman View Post
Please clarify as it seems this is precisely what you are claiming.

If a cable is rectifying the amps internal ability to remove even the slightest of mains noise from entering the amp, the amp is deficient, this is your take, said many times here.

I'm currently seeking a second opinion on the posts here from a very well regarding engineer, if he confirms your views, that's fine with me as he is someone who is out in the public arena so to speak, dealing with, servicing & repairing amps & other equipment on a daily basis, so someone I can relate to.

I will upload his response when & if I receive one.

Until then, you will be happy to hear i'm taking a break to listen to my deficient hifi gear
Its been explained multiple times by multiple people, however there seem to be a couple of posters here who still fail to understand the point.

Im afraid that guys you just have to accept that the issues in question may well be beyond your understanding. Thats nothing to be ashamed of, but you may need to consider seeking an alternative route to enlightenment than circularly repeating your same responses over and over clearly without progressing your understanding.

Get the views of whom ever you like, nothing has been posted here regarding this point that is actually technical. Its purely a logical relationship that anyone can understand, .........if they wish to.

Last edited by BE718; 21-04-17 at 06:44 AM.
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  #193  
Old 21-04-17, 06:09 AM
BE718 BE718 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sue Pertwee-Tyr View Post
Interesting that you think it is not credible (I see you've rowed back from 'obvious' that most people are unaffected) as I would say it is not obvious at all and, instead is highly credible.

I would suggest that it is possible (perhaps likely) that a sizeable proportion consider themselves immune to this phenomenon whereas in reality they respond much the same as those of us who are aware of this tendency in ourselves, they simply haven’t recognised it. It’s a question of self-awareness, just like the question of acknowledging the susceptibility to unconscious bias in sighted listening tests.

My suspicion would be that this is a continuum, with ‘totally/highly immune’ as outliers at one end ‘totally/highly susceptible’ as outliers at the other end, and most of us somewhere in the middle zone of the bell curve.

So much of human behaviour is a continuum, from sexuality, intelligence, emotional intelligence and innumerable other characteristics. My suspicion is that sensual perception in its various forms will be another. Some people are more acutely aware of timing issues when they arise in a music signal, others are more sensitive to pitch than usual, and so-on.

The 'zen like state' thing is just a device of your own to permit you to indulge in further ridicule. It has never been claimed or suggested and using it undermines your credibility, because if you have inferred that then you have misunderstood, and if you haven't, it is trolling.

Those on here who say ‘I’ve never perceived this, I therefore discount those who claim they have, as misguided’ would do well to ponder this, IMHO
I simply acknowledge that there must be a tiny proportion of people, such as extreme audiophiles, who get themselves worked up into such a tizzy that they are unable to hear properly when asked to listen for differences. Your continuum comments actually go along with this and support whats stated in my post.

I think the self awareness would be more appropriately framed in the context that the audiophiles such as yourself are the tiny minority that are affected in a stressful way by the thought of having their aural capabilities measured. You get stressed because being an audiophile with exceptional aural capabilities is part of your identity. If that is challenged you are threatened and have an inapropriate stress response.

Alternatively you just cant hear as well as you think you can and delude yourself into your conclusions about hifi equipment.

Either way if you are utterly incapable of demonstrating your aural capabilities beyond the comfort of your armchair, why should anyone take you seriously?

The Zen like state is simply an anology to the oft voiced audiophile view that extended listening and familiarity in stress free environments is required to discern differences. Even if this were true, all it points to is yhe differences are so infinitessimily small that they are unreasonably difficult to discern and as such can only be of significance to an excessively obssessive individual.

The other upshot of your position is that you assert that no ones aural abilities can be measured as measurement destroys aural acuity. Pathetic nonsense.

It really isnt a case of dismissing people because one has not experienced something ones self. Its actually a case of, "well based on my technical knowledge this seems unlikely, can you please demonstrate, beyond anecdote, that your experience is real and beyond biased obsessive audiophillia?"

The moment this happens you go all coy and say " oh no Im too stressed to be tested, its the wtong environment, the test is not sensetive enough, Im having my AMC (audiophile menstrual cycle)"

You then wonder why people take the piss.

Last edited by BE718; 21-04-17 at 08:56 AM.
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  #194  
Old 21-04-17, 06:36 AM
BE718 BE718 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Errol View Post
This is also known as a wriggle out.

But it's our Mr BE who needs to up front here, or is he out to lunch.
No I just ignore idiots who have had multiple people explain the point multiple times.

Go round in circles as much as you like, its your own tail you are chasing, which says quite a lot.
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  #195  
Old 21-04-17, 06:49 AM
adamdea adamdea is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragaman View Post
Can this happen in a blind test where identical amps, speakers, cd players, cables etc are concerned, in your opinion.
It did.
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