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  #31  
Old 31-01-17, 08:58 AM
Mike Reed Mike Reed is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectre View Post
Couldn't have said it better myself. Very simply I recently heard a Rosewood and SME V together and didn't feel they were particularly complimentary. The SME is very matter of fact and just emphasizes the lushness and slightly rolled off treble of the Koetsu. To these ears it needed an arm with a little more sparkle such as an Audiomods Series IV or alternative. Paired with a more complimentary arm I would probably warm to a Koetsu.
As I mentioned in my post, I found the Five complemented both my Black G. and Urushi. I agree about the 'matter of factness' of the Five, though, and thought it complemented, rather than emphasized, the warmer Koetsu presentation. I assume your experience was of a Sugano Son Red (from about 2003/4) as his father's cartridges (called 'Rosewoods) were quite a shade more lush.

However, ideally, a more massy arm than the Five is better suited to Koetsus generally. Even the Five-twelve (V12) is only a gramme heavier. I use PU7 and Ace Anna twelve-inchers at around the 14 to 16 g mark
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  #32  
Old 31-01-17, 10:24 AM
neil neil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RossB View Post
Some years ago I had a Koetsu Rosewood which I tried on the SME IV I owned at that time with an Orbe. I didn't feel that the SME/Koetsu combination was a good one, although many people do seem to use this combination. I found that the Koetsu sounded better on a heavier Japanese arm.
An interesting perspective and one that nicely illustrates the diversity of the hobby and that there is no universal right answer. Back in the days when I used to go to the Bristol Hifi show a perennial favourite (of mine) for best sound in show was the Michell room. John Michell used an Orbe with SME V arm and Koetsu Rosewood signature. It never sounded less than superb. This despite having a somewhat crooked cantilever apparently.

For the OP you really need to hear one for yourself, which may mean having to buy blind.
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  #33  
Old 31-01-17, 10:29 AM
SCIDB SCIDB is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Gravett View Post
About 30 or so years ago Hi-Fi Answers reviewed a Koetsu then worth over a grand and compared it to a Linn Basik cartridge costing about 25. The conclusion was the Basik outclassed it in almost every respect. Sounds ludicrous, I know, but the magazine was devoutly flat earth. I've never heard a Koetsu so can't comment on its capabilities.
Hi,

It was The Flat Response not Hi Fi Answers. Hi Fi Answers printed reviews that praised Koetsu cartridges.

Hi Fi Answers moved from the Flat Earth after Paul Benson left.

Dean
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  #34  
Old 31-01-17, 10:39 AM
Elephantears Elephantears is offline
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If you're looking for full bodied Japanese carts, I'd recommend hearing a Miyajima too. I recently got a Takumi and I'm very pleased with it. It's just found the FR64x it's been looking for and they are very happy together. If you are looking at Koetsus then perhaps a Shilabe is in your price range, which is supposed to be even more fantastic. For me the Miyajima solves the dialectical problems of clarity vs body, speed vs luxury etc.

Mind you, I heard an SPU at the weekend and it was just perfect (the owner also had a Miyajima mono on his other arm).
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  #35  
Old 31-01-17, 10:59 AM
keith1962 keith1962 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elephantears View Post
If you're looking for full bodied Japanese carts, I'd recommend hearing a Miyajima too. I recently got a Takumi and I'm very pleased with it. It's just found the FR64x it's been looking for and they are very happy together. If you are looking at Koetsus then perhaps a Shilabe is in your price range, which is supposed to be even more fantastic. For me the Miyajima solves the dialectical problems of clarity vs body, speed vs luxury etc.

Mind you, I heard an SPU at the weekend and it was just perfect (the owner also had a Miyajima mono on his other arm).
Agree with this regarding the Shilabe. It resolves as much as the Kleos I had but is not as stark and doesn't present it in quite such an overtly hi-fi manner. I have mine on a 12" Audio Creative arm and it is definitely more full bodied than the Kleos but still has the detail that I like.
I do want to hear an SPU as well though.
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  #36  
Old 31-01-17, 12:16 PM
Mike Reed Mike Reed is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neil View Post
.....John Michell used an Orbe with SME V arm and Koetsu Rosewood signature. It never sounded less than superb. This despite having a somewhat crooked cantilever apparently.
Interesting, Neil, and reminds me of when I bought J.M.'s ProAc Response 3s just before he moved house. He showed me his (then prototype) Orbe with Five and Rosewood Sig., saying that he was in the final throes of marketing the Orbe (in 1995, I think).

Some time later I bought one of the first with Five and Lyra Clavis.

ProAc (previously Celef) were close to J.M.'s works in Borehamwood; he made machined parts for Stuart Tyler and used ProAc speakers in return. This started me on a ProAc trail to the top Response Fours.
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  #37  
Old 31-01-17, 12:39 PM
G T Audio G T Audio is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elephantears View Post
If you are looking at Koetsus then perhaps a Shilabe is in your price range, which is supposed to be even more fantastic. For me the Miyajima solves the dialectical problems of clarity vs body, speed vs luxury etc.
You will need a high mass tonearm for a Shilabe to work correctly. 20 grams minimum, best nearer 30grams. Don't under estimate the Wasa either. In some systems I found it performed better than the Shilabe.

Miyajima Labs - Koetsuesque with clarity and detail...
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  #38  
Old 31-01-17, 12:54 PM
Mike Reed Mike Reed is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G T Audio View Post
You will need a high mass tonearm for a Shilabe to work correctly. 20 grams minimum, best nearer 30grams.

Miyajima Labs - Koetsuesque with clarity and detail...
Hmmmm! See opening para. of my post 25. Maybe the Jelco arm on the TD124 wasn't doing the Shliabe any favours, although as it was a bake-off it was the best he could do in the circumstances.

Maybe I should re-visit the Shilabe but mounted into my 12" Ace Anna, though by your reckoning that eff. mass (around 14 to 16g?) won't do it full justice. I was pleasantly surprised that it sounded similar to my Vermillion, though. Not too happy about ally cantilever, though.

However, that was through s/s phono and pre. It's very different now through built-in SUTs, as I've been finding out.....
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  #39  
Old 31-01-17, 12:56 PM
Graham H Graham H is offline
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I think it was Derek Whittington (owner Sound Advice) in the Flat Response that 'reviewed' the Koetsu and AT.

A friend of mine has a beautiful looking hand painted Urushi in a Dynavector arm and Technics SP10. Sounds absolutely magnificent. Big, powerful, detailed and pitch perfect (the turntable combo, not my friend).
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  #40  
Old 31-01-17, 02:04 PM
montesquieu montesquieu is offline
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Having owned Koetsu Black and Rosewood Signature, as well as several Miyajimas (and SPUs) I woud take a Miyajima Shilabe or Kansui over any Koetsu I've heard - all the upside of rich, ballsy sound without the downsides of (relative) lack of control. Need a decent (and heavy) arm though as others have pointed out.

The fancier stylus profile SPUs (again, need the right arm) do a better job as well, in my estimation.

Koetsus don't half look cool though! (I suspect kerb appeal is a big part of their legend).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Lord View Post
try an ortofon spu royal N.

very good.
When I had my Rosewood Sig I had a Royal N at the same time ... partly based on the 'cool' factor I sold the Royal N and immediately regretted it. I don't own a Koetsu now but I do have a Royal N in the stable. Set up properly (I have mine in a Nasotec self-aligning headshell) it just does more things better. Arm is Ikeda IT-345-CR1.
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  #41  
Old 31-01-17, 02:18 PM
andyr andyr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Reed View Post

Maybe I should re-visit the Shilabe but mounted into my 12" Ace Anna, though by your reckoning that eff. mass (around 14 to 16g?) won't do it full justice.
The 12" GoldenAge Audio UP is a fine-sounding arm (custom-made here in Melbourne) having an eff. mass of 23gm (with the ebony armwand).

See here: http://www.goldenageaudio.com.au/univector-tonearm.html

Works superbly with my Benz LP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Reed View Post

However, that was through s/s phono and pre. It's very different now through built-in SUTs, as I've been finding out.....
How have you organised the correct cart loading when using a SUT?

Andy
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  #42  
Old 31-01-17, 02:28 PM
Si74 Si74 is offline
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I'd suggest a Koetsu on an SME is a waste of time. I've only ever had 'lowly' Black Goldlines.
On a Syrinx PU 3 they were less than stellar till J7 made me extra weights to fit inside the bearing housing. Zeta/ZYX Airy was lovely but too hi-fi compared to the Koestu in a Stogi Reference.
Sold the first Black to a guy in Germany, fitted to his SME by his dealer?, wouldn't track a test record, strange folk that want to listen to test records, got it back at a loss and when it finally broke in, loved it. Sold it and kept the ZYX, Regretted that move and bought another Black. Have to say a Benz Glider on a Stogi S was a revelation, which I had already agreed to sell and was gutted when I heard the combo.
Proteus/PU 7 on a Systemdek Reference on the Tuesday.. eh wow
Proteus on an SME arm/Systemdek Reference the next day, totally underwhelming.
Sold the first Black to a mate whose parents originate form Malaysia, is the speil about these Koetsus' true? a month later he had been visiting the Homeland and offered me an Urushi at dealer price (methinks about 1200 quid) as he'd picked up two on the strength of the Lowly Black.
I first heard a wood bodied Koetsu on I think an FR64S? on an Oracle about 35 years ago and it raised the hairs on my neck, same Rosewood on a Breuer on an Oracle a few years later and the same story. There is just something right to my ears how they make music but as usual it's all a matter of synergy!
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  #43  
Old 31-01-17, 06:55 PM
merlin merlin is offline
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I only ever had an Onyx - mounted on an SME V.

Don't really remember it as being worth the money. Nothing magical about it. Moved onto other brands after that. Never really looked back.
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  #44  
Old 31-01-17, 11:54 PM
Purite Audio Purite Audio is offline
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I had a black and a red way back when, then a VDH modified EMT ,I think the Koetsu's were a little more rolled off than the EMT.
It is true that now Dynavector make the internal cartridge and Koetusu fit the bodywork?
Keith
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  #45  
Old 01-02-17, 12:53 AM
dave thomas dave thomas is offline
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Always wanted to try a Koetsu and had the opportunity to try a Koetsu Coralstone in my arm, Kuzma 4pt, last year.
Myself and the chap who brought it round were underwhelmed, it sounded rather dull in my system. Warm and rather slow, it did have a lot of power in the lowest registers though.
I was very hopeful prior to trying it - obviously not a good match with my TT.
Like all things analogue items need to be carefully matched and that is very difficult with cartridges.
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