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  #46  
Old 01-02-17, 01:28 AM
clivem2 clivem2 is offline
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I feel a Koetsu is rather like an single ended amp. They can both do wonderful things. Those who listen by specifications will find them inaccurate. With a system which is otherwise quite neutral they can bring some very welcome musicality but of course it's all down to personal preference.
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  #47  
Old 01-02-17, 04:55 AM
pure sound pure sound is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purite Audio View Post
It is true that now Dynavector make the internal cartridge and Koetsu fit the bodywork?
Keith
Do you have a source for that?
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  #48  
Old 01-02-17, 05:03 AM
mjw mjw is offline
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While on the subject of Koetsu, can any knowledgable, long term users advise on stylus cleaning, please. I still treat mine like the first baby, so afraid am I of damaging it. It gets a pass with a (otherwise unused, of course) sable artist's brush after every play (a la ESCO) but what about a drop of cleaner or the putties available? I live in fear of the tip falling off and can't even find a web page to tell me if the diamond is glued, wedged or whatever to the cantilever.
Thanks
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  #49  
Old 01-02-17, 05:22 AM
Mike42 Mike42 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjw View Post
While on the subject of Koetsu, can any knowledgable, long term users advise on stylus cleaning, please. I still treat mine like the first baby, so afraid am I of damaging it. It gets a pass with a (otherwise unused, of course) sable artist's brush after every play (a la ESCO) but what about a drop of cleaner or the putties available? I live in fear of the tip falling off and can't even find a web page to tell me if the diamond is glued, wedged or whatever to the cantilever.
Thanks
Onzow Zero Dust. I have three delicate MCs and this does the trick. I know others that use it too.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Musical-I...ner/B0075KTY3M
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  #50  
Old 01-02-17, 06:23 AM
Mike Reed Mike Reed is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike42 View Post
Onzow Zero Dust. I have three delicate MCs and this does the trick. I know others that use it too.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Musical-I...ner/B0075KTY3M
Which is almost identical, I believe, to Dust Buster which cost me half that. K styli are pretty rugged, and, unlike Benz, slotted and glued (a.f.a.i.k.)

I use said Dust Buster every couple of sessions or so, the AT 637 electronic cleaner occasionally and a truncated artists' brush with dilute IPA if I have the cart. off the arm (my arms are fixed h/shell). If your records are RCM cleaned, stylus cleaning is brought to a minimum.

With Ks, watch the bias, as they were purportedly 'designed' to play without bias, and they do sound better with minimal bias. However, after a few hundred hours, the cantilever can start drifting a bit

If you've a detachable head-shell, you're laughing as regards periodic inspection and hand cleaning; a jewellers' loupe is required, though.
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  #51  
Old 01-02-17, 06:28 AM
Mike Reed Mike Reed is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyr View Post
The 12" GoldenAge Audio UP is a fine-sounding arm (custom-made here in Melbourne) having an eff. mass of 23gm (with the ebony armwand).

See here: http://www.goldenageaudio.com.au/univector-tonearm.html

Works superbly with my Benz LP.



How have you organised the correct cart loading when using a SUT?

Andy

Hope you watched the amazing men's singles final in that fair city of yours.

The E.A.R. pre., with two either m/c or m/m inputs, has loading and gain switches to correspond with T. de P.'s top SUTs

B.t.w., that home-grown twelve-incher unipivot may be excellent, but the description is appalling. I can't understand how anyone tries to market something like that without having their English checked out.
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  #52  
Old 01-02-17, 06:46 AM
Mike Reed Mike Reed is offline
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Originally Posted by dave thomas View Post
Always wanted to try a Koetsu and had the opportunity to try a Koetsu Coralstone in my arm, Kuzma 4pt, last year.
Myself and the chap who brought it round were underwhelmed, it sounded rather dull in my system. Warm and rather slow, it did have a lot of power in the lowest registers though.
I was very hopeful prior to trying it - obviously not a good match with my TT.
Like all things analogue items need to be carefully matched and that is very difficult with cartridges.
Lucky you; I'd love to try the Coralstone, or come to that, any of the more recent stone bodied Ks. Dave, it can surely only be the Kuzma tonearm at issue here, unless loadings were wrong, it hadn't been set up correctly or it hadn't run in. Maybe it wasn't massy enough.

Most start with the Black or Red, but you decided to go to the top.......?
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  #53  
Old 01-02-17, 10:32 AM
G T Audio G T Audio is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyr View Post
How have you organised the correct cart loading when using a SUT?

Andy
There is no correct cartridge loading value. Published loading figures are based on a "recommendation" from the cartridge manufacturer and is arrived at by listening in the cartridge manufacturers system, using their test electronics and in their listening room. It is done by ear and not by measurements. Obviously their value could be, and often is, very different from what works best in your system.

Most reputable cartridge manufacturers quote two loading "recommendations", one for use when a solid state MC phono stage is used, and one for use when a MM phono stage (solid state or valve) is used with an MC step up transformer connected between the cartridge and the MM phono stage. Loading figures should only be used as a guide and are not set in stone.
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  #54  
Old 01-02-17, 01:02 PM
Tim Jones Tim Jones is offline
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I think the net effect of these (very helpful) answers is that, unless I can somehow arrange a dem, I'm going off the Koetsu idea a bit, and veering towards a Benz LP or perhaps a Lyra. 3 or 4k is a lot of money for something whose character might limit me to particular musical choices.

I do admire timbre and resolution, but neutrality is probably a better idea in terms of how I feel about my system atm...

Mark - I'd like to take you up on that kind offer please - will send you a PM.
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  #55  
Old 01-02-17, 01:36 PM
anubisgrau anubisgrau is offline
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i found many lyras much more limiting music choice than any koetsu.

if you want both worlds then lyra skala, lyra forensics in a unusually lush way ...
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  #56  
Old 01-02-17, 02:04 PM
andyr andyr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G T Audio View Post

There is no correct cartridge loading value. Published loading figures are based on a "recommendation" from the cartridge manufacturer and is arrived at by listening in the cartridge manufacturers system, using their test electronics and in their listening room. It is done by ear and not by measurements. Obviously their value could be, and often is, very different from what works best in your system.
Absolutely agree with your statement that there is no "correct" loading value and it needs to be done by ear.

Not sure I agree with your comment how mfrs arrive at their 'recommended" value ... the specs for my Benz LP merely say "500 ohm to 47K ohm"!

Quote:
Originally Posted by G T Audio View Post

Most reputable cartridge manufacturers quote two loading "recommendations", one for use when a solid state MC phono stage is used, and one for use when a MM phono stage (solid state or valve) is used with an MC step up transformer connected between the cartridge and the MM phono stage. Loading figures should only be used as a guide and are not set in stone.
Yes and this is where it gets interesting ... and why I asked my question.

IMO, there is an optimal load for any cart - it is not logical that this value should change when a SUT is suddenly introduced in front of a MM phono stage (ss or valve) instead of using a pre-pre amp (aka ' headamp').

Why a mfr might suggest 2 different values, to me is because of the way a SUT modifies the default 47K loading which most MM phono stages have. As I'm sure you know, when a SUT sits between the cart and the MM phono stage, the cart 'sees' 47K / sq of the turns ratio. So with a 10:1 turns ratio, the load becomes 470 ohms ... with a 20:1 turns ratio, the load becomes 118 ohms.

This, IMO, is the weakness of SUTs.

A mate of mine who also owns a Benz LP was using it with his very expensive, very nice-sounding, US-made MM/MC valve phono stage. With the 0.28mV output of the benz, he obviously had to plug the phono cable into the MC input - which had an in-built 10:1 SUT ... which meant he was loading his LP with only 470 ohms.

He knew I loaded mine at 3K3 and asked me how he could increase his loading. I lent him a JFET-based headamp that I own (which has a parallel pair of input RCAs, designed to take 'loaded' plugs), which he used with the MM input ... and was delighted with the better sound from his Benz LP.


Regards,
Andy


He was delighted
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  #57  
Old 01-02-17, 02:27 PM
dave thomas dave thomas is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Reed View Post
Lucky you; I'd love to try the Coralstone, or come to that, any of the more recent stone bodied Ks. Dave, it can surely only be the Kuzma tonearm at issue here, unless loadings were wrong, it hadn't been set up correctly or it hadn't run in. Maybe it wasn't massy enough.

Most start with the Black or Red, but you decided to go to the top.......?
Unfortunately it was only on loan from a friend. I really don't understand why it sounded so disappointing. I have a number of high end carts and they all perform well in the Kuzma. It was certainly set up correctly and loaded correctly, my conclusion was the arm did not suit. Maybe it needs one of the heavy FR arms or similar.
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  #58  
Old 01-02-17, 03:05 PM
pmac pmac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anubisgrau View Post
i found many lyras much more limiting music choice than any koetsu.

if you want both worlds then lyra skala, lyra forensics in a unusually lush way ...
Despite my indifference to Koetsus, I have to agree with this.
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  #59  
Old 01-02-17, 03:12 PM
RossB RossB is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyr View Post
Absolutely agree with your statement that there is no "correct" loading value and it needs to be done by ear.

Not sure I agree with your comment how mfrs arrive at their 'recommended" value ... the specs for my Benz LP merely say "500 ohm to 47K ohm"!



Yes and this is where it gets interesting ... and why I asked my question.

IMO, there is an optimal load for any cart - it is not logical that this value should change when a SUT is suddenly introduced in front of a MM phono stage (ss or valve) instead of using a pre-pre amp (aka ' headamp').

Why a mfr might suggest 2 different values, to me is because of the way a SUT modifies the default 47K loading which most MM phono stages have. As I'm sure you know, when a SUT sits between the cart and the MM phono stage, the cart 'sees' 47K / sq of the turns ratio. So with a 10:1 turns ratio, the load becomes 470 ohms ... with a 20:1 turns ratio, the load becomes 118 ohms.

This, IMO, is the weakness of SUTs.

A mate of mine who also owns a Benz LP was using it with his very expensive, very nice-sounding, US-made MM/MC valve phono stage. With the 0.28mV output of the benz, he obviously had to plug the phono cable into the MC input - which had an in-built 10:1 SUT ... which meant he was loading his LP with only 470 ohms.

He knew I loaded mine at 3K3 and asked me how he could increase his loading. I lent him a JFET-based headamp that I own (which has a parallel pair of input RCAs, designed to take 'loaded' plugs), which he used with the MM input ... and was delighted with the better sound from his Benz LP.


Regards,
Andy


He was delighted
Loading via SUT is very different from loading via headamp or active MC stage. With an active gain stage the input impedance changes the tonal character of the cartridge significantly. An SUT into an MM stage does not really produce the same effect. While a 10:1 SUT may in theory produce a 470 ohm load, in practice it does not produce the same sonic effect as a 470 ohm into an active preamp. With a SUT, the primary goal is to step the voltage up to around 5mv - the loading is far less critical to the sound quality.

There is a good explanation of this on the Rothwells site, which explains it better than I can: http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co....rs_explai.html .
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  #60  
Old 02-02-17, 05:11 AM
martin dawson martin dawson is offline
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Having owned both cartridges a Micro Benz Wood SL and now having a Kiseki Blue NS how good the Benz was the Kiseki is in another league.

The Kiseki opened up the soundstage so much more cymbals were so crisp, piano was more defined and especially acoustic guitars. The biggest plus were vocals more natural you really need to check out a Kiseki when you're laying out that money.

Regards,

Martin
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