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  #61  
Old 23-09-17, 03:18 PM
G T Audio G T Audio is offline
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Originally Posted by Robert View Post
I'm not against expensive hi-fi but the engineering and build need to have some correlation to performance.
Having exhibited at some of the worlds top Hi-Fi shows I can whole heartedly agree with that comment!

80%-90% of todays Hi-Fi is more about branding, exclusivity, technology and very little to do with audio performance and what will make recorded music sound more realistic in the home environment.
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  #62  
Old 23-09-17, 03:30 PM
Paul R Paul R is offline
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Originally Posted by h.g. View Post
He doesn't come across as either very decent or provoked in the link I posted earlier.

The Randi thing was interesting because despite being a non-scientist he doesn't seem to have checked with someone that understood home audio before setting the conditions for the initial cable challenge. If Fremer had made contact with someone that understood home audio he would have been $1 million better off plus lots of audiophile cred. I am pretty sure Randi's back pedalling was because someone told him how to pass his challenge.
IIRC the Randi thing boiled down to the two cables having to be electrically equivalent, hence they will sound the same, unless something paranormal is occurring, which wasn't an acceptable condition for Fremer. Impasse essentially.

The saga does confirm that Fremeresque cablephiles concur that cables don't have a sound for surprising reasons. I'm not sure they've thought through what that implies for the $30000 a run jobs.

But I enjoy reading him, and his video was very entertaining. It's clear what comes first. Not so sure about the reviewer phenomenon though.

Paul

Last edited by Paul R; 23-09-17 at 03:41 PM.
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  #63  
Old 23-09-17, 03:41 PM
Tony L Tony L is offline
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Originally Posted by Paul R View Post
IIRC the Randi thing boiled down to the two cables having to be electrically equivalent, hence they will sound the same, unless something paranormal is occurring, which wasn't an acceptable condition for Fremer. Impasse essentially.
Randi came across as the shyster here; he made a huge huff, puff and bluster arguing it was impossible to tell audio cables apart, and then as soon as Fremer rose to the bait with examples he quickly changed the rules of his test only to include identical measuring cables. Which audio cables obviously aren’t, thus making the test of no relevance whatsoever to the audio industry. Fremer pwned him IMO.
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  #64  
Old 23-09-17, 03:44 PM
Paul R Paul R is offline
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Perhaps, but cables that are different may sound different, no surprise, and no need for $30000. Randi is about paranormal. If cables are normal then the challenge isn't applicable.

IOW he's not going to give you $1m for hearing the adjustment of a tone control.

The conclusion about the expensive cable industry though is obvious. It's prime Randi territory, but it requires a believer, a foo cable supplier and an engineer to duplicate the foo for pennies. And the former will not accept the latter.

Paul
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  #65  
Old 23-09-17, 04:07 PM
h.g. h.g. is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul R View Post
IIRC the Randi thing boiled down to the two cables having to be electrically equivalent, hence they will sound the same, unless something paranormal is occurring, which wasn't an acceptable condition for Fremer. Impasse essentially.
Not quite. IIRC he required the cables to be electrically equivalent over the audible frequency range and allowed the use of any audiophile hardware. Under these conditions someone with a reasonable knowledge of how audio equipment works could arrange for audible differences to arise. I strongly suspect being told about this is what changed Randi's behaviour from baiting and provoking cable pushers (he was not interested in cable users) to backpedalling.
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  #66  
Old 23-09-17, 07:15 PM
davidsrsb davidsrsb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by h.g. View Post
...IIRC he required the cables to be electrically equivalent over the audible frequency range and allowed the use of any audiophile hardware. Under these conditions someone with a reasonable knowledge of how audio equipment works could arrange for audible differences to arise.....
How? Shielding to ground at only one end etc are NOT electrically equivalent
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  #67  
Old 23-09-17, 10:43 PM
jtrade jtrade is offline
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Originally Posted by allthingsanalog View Post
This one is hilarious.

He's clearly a very good comedian, when he said 'slut' vinyl as opposed to 'virgin' I almost fell out of my chair!

It was the German rectangular inner sleeve description that gave me a great Sunday morning laugh.
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  #68  
Old 24-09-17, 12:49 AM
Julf Julf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony L View Post
Randi came across as the shyster here; he made a huge huff, puff and bluster arguing it was impossible to tell audio cables apart, and then as soon as Fremer rose to the bait with examples he quickly changed the rules of his test only to include identical measuring cables. Which audio cables obviously arenít, thus making the test of no relevance whatsoever to the audio industry. Fremer pwned him IMO.
Randi never intended the test to have any relevance to the audio industry. He has always gone after the scamsters who claim paranormal powers - and in this case, people who claim "there is a difference, but science doesn't know how to measure it".
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  #69  
Old 24-09-17, 01:32 AM
dave charlton dave charlton is offline
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Originally Posted by Tony L View Post
Just watched it, heís good fun, made me laugh several times. I like his garage sale stories.
Didn't think much to the story re the guy who had a stroke. Juvenile bordering on supremacy imo
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  #70  
Old 24-09-17, 01:43 AM
h.g. h.g. is offline
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Originally Posted by davidsrsb View Post
How?
One approach would be to use a nonlinearity in a frequency range where the properties of the cables differ to alias different information into the audible frequency range. To get energy into this frequency range one could add, for example, ultrasonic tones to a high resolution "audiophile" recording but this is a bit crude. An alternative could be to use instability in a boutique "audiophile" amplifier or design/modify one for the purpose. One could work with an "audiophile" plasma tweeter to do something acoustically. I expect there are a number of other approaches that people who know something about home audio could come up with.
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  #71  
Old 24-09-17, 01:50 AM
lennyw lennyw is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave charlton View Post
Didn't think much to the story re the guy who had a stroke. Juvenile bordering on supremacy imo
I think you might have missed the point -- to me, his impression of the chap who'd had the stroke was tragic, in that the chap is probably trying to tell his family: "What are you doing, that's a first pressing SXL and is worth 100s not $1!!!!" but can't. Made me think, I really must do the same with my kids...
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  #72  
Old 24-09-17, 01:52 AM
Tony L Tony L is offline
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That’s how I heard it too. I’m certainly not a huge fan of impersonating the handicapped, but he made the point well.
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  #73  
Old 24-09-17, 02:07 AM
timola timola is offline
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Originally Posted by allthingsanalog View Post
I was actually being serious, not facetious, I genuinly find him funny in a nice way.
I found him entertaining and he reminded me of Woody Allen. My thoughts were; what a mess? how many records! and you paid what for cables!!!

I have to agree that vinyl wows more than digital.
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  #74  
Old 24-09-17, 02:23 AM
ssimon ssimon is online now
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OK, changing the subject, we're now onto the second Fremer video (the DVD I think he wants you to buy). He extols the virtues of the British vinyl and derides the American "slut" vinyl. Whether it's "slut" or not I can usually tell an American pressing from the 60's because the edge is not sharp so it's nicer to handle.
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  #75  
Old 24-09-17, 02:34 AM
Tony L Tony L is offline
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I agree with him on the poor vinyl quality of many American albums, especially in the 70s when it got very noisy due to being recycled etc, but the cut and cover quality tends to be truly superb, e.g. original Impulse, Blue Note, RCA Living Stereo pressings etc. No UK album has ever had a cover as nicely made as a 60s Impulse. It is interesting comparing UK original jazz vinyl against its American counterpart, the vinyl is lovely and quiet, but the sound is often dead in the water compared to the US original cut. I assume due to being a tape generation or two later given it is an American musical form and that is where most of it was recorded. Blue Note, Impulse etc also had the advantage that Rudy Van Gelder did the cut as well as the recording so the original intent is undiluted right through the process. First pressing from country of artist origin remains the best rule of thumb.
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