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  #61  
Old 25-05-12, 01:15 AM
Mescalito Mescalito is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wheres vuk View Post
the egyptians will only be happy in a friendship with israel if they(EGY) are not so poor, so industrially primitive and a stagnant society with little economic mobility. it is a frustration borne out of a sense of being losers. the arabs attacked israel(syria, egypt, jordan). and still the israeli army under dayan, sharon, rabin repelled them. the israelis work better, defend better and fight better. egypt needs to raise its game and join the modern world, where israel comfortably sits.
Not only repelled them, but utterly, utterly humiliated them. And if there is one thing an Arab has problems with, it is humiliation.

The problem with Arab-Israeli relations is that it is an existential thing as far as Israel is concerned.

In their position, I'd mke sure everyone knew I had some big F-off nukes as well.

Chris

Chris
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  #62  
Old 25-05-12, 01:34 AM
7_V 7_V is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avole View Post
Try google. The story is somewhat different.
I researched the issue extensively when the Guardian first came out with their allegation. It was untrue. If Israel had shared its nuclear know how with South Africa, South Africa would have nukes today. They don't.
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  #63  
Old 25-05-12, 02:28 AM
PaulMB PaulMB is offline
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Originally Posted by TheDecameron View Post
That sounds like the history lite version where no one got hurt. The central problem is the ideological mass migration and siezure of territory from its inhabitants by force. Nearly a million Palestinians fled in terror and their millions of children and grandchildren are living in squalid refugee camps in surrounding countries. They are denied their right to return while what were once their houses, farms and property is now taken by ideological immigrants from countries like Britain, the USA, South Africa and Australia. It's obvious to the whole world appart from the ideologists who created it or support it. As a state it can only exist through militarisation and military support from one super power. It is inherently unstable.


Felt it important to provide the reality check before the thread is filed.
Your "reality check" is in fact a gross over-simplification, and heavily biased as shown by your phrase "obvious to the whole world apart from the ideologists who created and support it," which seems to say that your point of view is an obvious truth to anyone who can see straight, while any other view is wrong because it is merely the result of ideology rather than fact or history.

If you are into reality checks, you might like to consider that in the 1948 war while several hundred thousand (nearly a million???) Arabs certainly were forced to abandon the land they were living on, there was also land legally purchased by Jews that fell into Arab hands after the ceasfire. In addition, far more than a million Jews "fled in terror" from Lebanon, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Algeria, Morocco, Yemen, etc. and were forced to go and live in Israel.
The smaller number of Arabs who left what is today Israel were not welcomed and made to feel at home by their "Arab brothers", but have in many cases been penned up in refugee camps since then. Jordan went so far as to kill about 25,000 Palestinians in "Black September" 1970.

What is obvious to me is that the anti-Israeli position is frequently ideological, and unfortunately seems completely lacking in any interest to know what actually happened, preferring a crude simplification that comfortingly distinguishes between good guys and bad guys.
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  #64  
Old 25-05-12, 03:33 AM
Cav Cav is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr Pig View Post
Saying such a thing is a bit like saying 'Many people on this forum don't like Cav'. Fair and reasonable?
Might even be true?
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  #65  
Old 25-05-12, 04:10 AM
ariegur ariegur is offline
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I have a lot to post....

Quote:
If you are into reality checks, you might like to consider that in the 1948 war while several hundred thousand (nearly a million???) Arabs certainly were forced to abandon the land they were living on, there was also land legally purchased by Jews that fell into Arab hands after the ceasfire.
We must remember that this happened because of a war that was forced on Israel by the Arabs. No doubt that many thousands of Arabs left their homes because of the IDF forced them to do so, but many more thousands ran away because of the fear of the war situation. The final number to my knowledge is less than 600,000. BTW, many Arabs ran away from Haifa and until now I can't understand what was the cause for this.
It was also sad to Arabs who lived here for many years on land that wasn't belong to them. Israelis bought lands from rich Arabs who lived in Lebanon and Syria and the local Arabs were forced to leave these lands.

The Spring of Arabs: The thoughts in Israel as I can understand from reading and listening to experts in broadcasting programs is still and was from the beginning that because of the extreme religious parties are much more organized than the other political parties, then the governance will move to the extreme religious people. It is a problem to Israel but it is a problem to those religious parties too because Egypt is a huge country with many critical problems and it is a question how will the new president deal with it.

Another possibility is that the army will react in revolution to extreme religious government, either ways, it seems that big democracy will not rise in Egypt.

The survey in Egypt, the events in Syria, are putting in question if Israel should give up land. I was always sure that Israel must withdraw the Golan Height for peace agreement with Assad, I'm sure now that such a move will be a mistake.

Quote:
deanf asks: let's say the figures in the OP are correct - what do you think Israel could do to change that opinion?
I think that we do everything: we have ambassador there, we like to travel to Egypt, we have nothing against Egyptians - I don't think that I have to send flowers every morning to an Egyptian, should I?

About the survey - I talked with a friend this morning and he thinks that I get it all wrong: He thinks that the survey reflects the opinion of the more educated people in Egypt who could take part on the survey. These people are not influenced by mosques but by the media. Egypt is a leader country in the region and being a leader here goes hand by hand with hate to Israel. See Iran and see Turkey. Therefore the people in Egypt hate Israel because this is what the government by the media is really teaching them.

Arye
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  #66  
Old 25-05-12, 04:20 AM
Still Still is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariegur View Post
Therefore the people in Egypt hate Israel because this is what the government by the media is really teaching them.
This sort of thing? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18149573
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  #67  
Old 25-05-12, 04:50 AM
ariegur ariegur is offline
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We are not talking about Palestinians here - and this case is still under investigation. Remember well your quick wrong conclusions in the Marmara event. I know that we (the Israelis) are cruel murderers, I'm a part of it - so you can spare your words.


Arye
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  #68  
Old 25-05-12, 04:54 AM
PaulMB PaulMB is offline
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It may be of interest that in the years of Sadat and afterwards Mubarak, while Egypt had full diplomatic relations with Israel, in Egyptian state schools Israel did not appear on maps, and was described as something like "Zionist usurped area." The state education system encouraged hostility towards Israel, as did the mass media produced for domestic consumption.
So a kind of "double think," with one position towards the outside world, and another domestically.
So generations of Egyptians have grown up with Israel as the great bogey-man.
These things I learned watching an Italian documentary of no particular bias, I think.

I was also told, by an Egyptian who now lives in Italy, that even under Mubarak the intellectuals and educated middle class that might be described as "liberal" or "progressive" or "non-religious" had been increasingly pressured into keeping a very low profile. It was the Moslem Brothers, after all, who assassinated Sadat and evidently Mubarak had to walk a fine line between keeping passable relations with the West, in particular with the US that was pouring money into Egypt, and not giving the Islamic forces too much of an excuse to rebel against him.
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  #69  
Old 25-05-12, 04:57 AM
Still Still is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariegur View Post
We are not talking about Palestinians here - and this case is still under investigation.
We were talking about Palestinians a little further up thread, although I appreciate that's potentially an awkward subject.
Quote:
Remember well your quick wrong conclusions in the Marmara event. I know that we (the Israelis) are cruel murderers, I'm a part of it - so you can spare your words.
Does hyperbole help? If you can't cope with the answers, it's best not to ask "Why do you think the Egyptians don't like Israel?"
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  #70  
Old 25-05-12, 05:05 AM
ariegur ariegur is offline
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Still,

I can easily deal with your posts by bringing horrible pictures of Israelis including little kids who were wounded by Palestinians including the brutal murder of a family in their sleep. But I don't want to get into this and it is not allowed here.



Arye
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  #71  
Old 25-05-12, 05:59 AM
sq225917 sq225917 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7_V View Post
I researched the issue extensively when the Guardian first came out with their allegation. It was untrue. If Israel had shared its nuclear know how with South Africa, South Africa would have nukes today. They don't.
SA doesn't have nukes because they de-commissioned them before the end of apartheid. They 'HAD' nukes, 6 or 7 of them.
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  #72  
Old 25-05-12, 06:28 AM
Greg Greg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariegur View Post
Still,

I can easily deal with your posts by bringing horrible pictures of Israelis including little kids who were wounded by Palestinians including the brutal murder of a family in their sleep. But I don't want to get into this and it is not allowed here.



Arye
Arye, is there any difference between those awful murders and whole Palestinian families killed by an IDF tank shell hitting their home?
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  #73  
Old 25-05-12, 06:34 AM
sean99 sean99 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg View Post
Arye, is there any difference between those awful murders and whole Palestinian families killed by an IDF tank shell hitting their home?
From what little I know in the whole sorry Arabs vs Israelis issues both sides are as bad as each other, and the sabre rattlers should be very concerned that they may well get what they want in the near future.

I just hope that Europe (UK) doesn't get dragged into it. I would also hope the US doesn't get dragged in to referee the fighting, but Washington just can't help itself.
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  #74  
Old 25-05-12, 06:49 AM
TheDecameron TheDecameron is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMB View Post
. It was the Moslem Brothers, after all, who assassinated Sadat and evidently Mubarak had to walk a fine line between keeping passable relations with the West, in particular with the US that was pouring money into Egypt, and not giving the Islamic forces too much of an excuse to rebel against him.
US funding allowed Mubarak to lethally supress the Muslim Brotherhood and many others. He wasn't walking a fine line, he was completely brazen in serving his group's interests and the interest of the U.S. He's finished and watch now what happens when the dictator himself is arrested. The three decades of resentment against torture, execution , summary arrest and political supression boil up to the surface.
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  #75  
Old 25-05-12, 07:30 AM
deanf deanf is offline
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A brief interlude from the thread to tell you a story about a very nice Israel girl I used to work with:

The first time I spoke to her on the phone I asked, how are you? She replied, "Every day we struggle. There was a suicide bombing on the way to work but fortunately it was in a different part of the city, and I have spoken to my family and they are all ok. Hopefully I will see them all when I go home tonight. Today is good. Thank you".

She asked me how I was. I replied, "Yeah, not bad thanks".

That made me think!
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