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Another Kii THREE thread.

Discussion in 'audio' started by badger748, Nov 2, 2017.

  1. PuritéAudio

    PuritéAudio Guest

    Graham Hi, the customer initially came to hear the ATCs which he liked very much, having looked at the site he asked to hear the 8C and Kii THREEs predominatelybecause of placement issues in his room, ideally the speakers need to fit either side of the bay windows.
    It is difficult to compare two loudspeakers because their proximity will affect (to some extent ) their performance ,I let the customer switch between and he preferred the 8Cs bass was punchier, voices were fuller and he thought more natural, the Kiis are ‘calm’ but the 8Cs really dynamic especially if you can use them within 50cm of a wall.
    Ultimately he has to compare the ATCs and 8Cs in his own place.
  2. Jonboi

    Jonboi Because Music Matters

    On several of my favourite albums, and mainly on transient peaks, such as a rim shot, or crashing cymbals on a drumkit, I could hear mild distortion through my Naim SBL's driven by my then NAC72/Hi-Cap/NAP180 - at around 9 o'clock on the volume - enough to be realistically 'loud' but not giving it 'ginger' either.

    As many of the CD's were AAD I assumed it was tape saturation on the master tape. However, when I swapped out the Naim for my Sony TA-DA9000ES, and played the same CD's at similar Db levels (using a SPL meter) low and behold the 'fizz' distortion that I assumed was tape saturation was gone. Only real explanation that I could think of was amplifier momentarily clipping on peaks - certainly driving to considerably louder levels with the Sony elicited no distress from the SBL's - but then it was and is a much more powerful amplifier than Naims finest bar the later Statement amp. Interestingly, the extra 'fizz' of distortion on the peaks added a sense of superficial excitement that was otherwise missed on the much smoother and more detailed Sony! Perhaps part of the appeal of the Naim sound?

    The closest I got to auditioning speakers with a simple 1st order crossover and quality components was a pair of Epos 14's that I had home on demo whilst assessing speakers to pair with my then new Naim kit, before settling on SBL's. Certainly the simple crossover aids dynamics and detail if the drivers are designed around it.

    However many passive speaker designs have complicated crossovers with high quality components due phase alignment of drivers etc - the B&W 800 series would come to mind.

    Companies such as ATC, Dynaudio, PMC, B&O etc have all made speakers in both passive and active versions, and certainly ACT categorically state the engineering superiority of active over passive. Indeed, companies such as Naim and Linn still put active operation (with multiple external amps + active crossover) at the top of their performance tree. No doubt with good reason.

    I would argue that most companies make passive speakers specifically for the audiophile market, where punters like to mix and match and choose amps and cables etc.

    As such, the fully self contained active speaker, as used by most recording studios and professional sound engineers and top domestic speaker companies such as ATC, Dynaudio, B&O, Meridian, MBL Radialstrahler, Steinway Lyngdorf etc, would be anathema to an audiophile and likely a marketing disaster.

    And of course they are not popular with most dealers because of the self contained nature, and commensurate lack of opportunity to on sell racks, cables, amplifier 'upgrades' and other audio accessories.

  3. firedog

    firedog pfm Member

    Modern DSP controlled speakers like the Kii (and you can also accomplish it with conventional speakers with a Devialet and the SAM feature, if they've "mapped" your speaker) are programmed to allow the drivers to extend exactly to their maximum before they start to distort.
    No conventional setup can do this, so they will often introduce distortion. With proper DSP control, you can get, for example, much extended bass frequency response from a given Woofer - because the system "knows" how to drive the Woofer hard but control it so it doesn't distort. In a conventional system, pushing a woofer in this manner will result in distortion, and a bass rolloff at a higher frequency.

    BTW, I went for a system with Devore Nines to one with the Kiis, and believe me their is no comparison in terms of which one has a cleaner less distorted sound. And it isn't the Devores.
  4. h.g.

    h.g. pfm Member

    Limiting the output at low frequencies is substantially distorting the signal. I would agree it is a preferable form of distortion but it is still distortion. If you want to avoid it use appropriate drivers with sufficient cone area.
  5. Strictly Stereo

    Strictly Stereo Trade: Strictly Stereo

    The Kii Three will play more than loud enough for most people in most rooms without ever hitting the limiters.
  6. h.g.

    h.g. pfm Member

    4 x 6.5" drivers has the area of a 12" but not the stroke. There is no port. With room boom they could well be loud enough on their own. With subs to absorb the boom to get decent quality bass they will need support but then the subs would be around to provide that. I would suggest marginal (or adequate if you are salesman) rather than plenty.
  7. Strictly Stereo

    Strictly Stereo Trade: Strictly Stereo

    Have you heard a pair?
  8. firedog

    firedog pfm Member

    Sorry, you really don't know what you are talking about. You agree that if the Kiis have such distortion it is "preferable" but somehow you'd prefer conventional speakers that distort more and have a less "preferable" form of distortion?
    You are caught up in old ideas and don't have any idea how this technology works. It doesn't "substantially distort the signal" - in fact the opposite is true. They will play very low bass, down to 20hz, at quite loud volumes, and do it with less distortion than most conventional speakers. It's also been measured to be true. Look it up online. Maybe educate yourself about how it works before incorrectly pontificating about what it does.

    Here's an excerpt from the Stereophile review about their bass:
    Let's first dispense with issues of bass. I've long prized a recording of Mendelssohn's Organ Sonatas, performed by Thomas Murray on the E. & G.G. Hook instrument in the sanctuary of the First Religious Society, in Jamaica Plain, Massachusetts (CD, Raven OAR-390). The fourth movement of the Sonata in F is my go-to for low-frequency articulation and extension. You may be incredulous to hear—I was—that the Kii was entirely satisfying in delineating the descending pedal notes. In fact, I found the Kii's ability to convey the sensation of a single throbbing column of air rather than a seemingly louder but more diffuse and indiscriminant growl to be almost unique. It was the kind of performance not ordinarily possible in a typical listening room, and for which one usually turns to a well-placed, well-equalized subwoofer.

    No ,they don't have stomach punching bass power like a 15 inch woofer with 400 watts behind it - they don't move that much air. And no one has claimed the Kiis will compete with that. But what is your real point? That they aren't perfect and aren't the best bass transducers available?

    They play very low bass very cleanly. In most rooms and at volumes most people listen to they have no issues. No one I know has a system that does bass better. How is that objectinable? You claiming their performance is otherwise, based on little knowledge and no evidence, doesn't change the truth.
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
  9. SteveH

    SteveH pfm Member

    After my head was blown off hearing these at a dealer's, he kindly did a home dem. My living room is unusual in that it is big and high - around 14ft high.
    The Kiis had plenty of bass, plenty. They went at least as deep as my own pair of Shahinian Obelisks. No "support" needed believe me. I don't think I've ever heard a single piece of kit that has impressed me more; the experience was right up there with when I got my first LP12 nearly 40 years ago. They are relatively expensive but I am currently working out how to afford a pair. I've never spet anyway near this on a pair of speakers before but I guess they do include the amps...

    The only way to have any valid opinion on Kiis (or indeed any other kit) is to go and hear it. I read all the guff about the Kiis on PFM so I went and heard a pair. Simple as that. Now when I speak about them, I know what I'm talking about.
  10. Purité Audio

    Purité Audio Trade: Purite Audio

    You should try to hear the Dutch&Dutch 8C every bit as good but much cheaper!
  11. SteveH

    SteveH pfm Member

    I'm not sure that was exactly what you said when you were a Kii dealer?
    muzzer likes this.
  12. Purité Audio

    Purité Audio Trade: Purite Audio

  13. Dozey

    Dozey Air guitar member

    Do they have any darker wood finishes? I suppose it would be possible to stain them if not ...
  14. Strictly Stereo

    Strictly Stereo Trade: Strictly Stereo

    Dutch & Dutch? They also offer a black stained oak finish.

  15. Dozey

    Dozey Air guitar member

  16. Strictly Stereo

    Strictly Stereo Trade: Strictly Stereo

    If there is a particular timber species or finish that you would like, let me know and I will find out if it can be custom made.
  17. Dozey

    Dozey Air guitar member

    I suspect the black finish would be OK for my application.
  18. Still

    Still gyldengourd

    Wasn't there a time when you were selling both?
  19. AndyU

    AndyU pfm Member

    I find extremely hard to believe that two competently measured speakers should have exactly the same appalling trough in their frequency response at around 200Hz. Not that you can see the scales or the levels, which you would expect from competent measurements. Have the manufacturers of either speakers responded to such terrible measurements?
  20. Purité Audio

    Purité Audio Trade: Purite Audio

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