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Another Kii THREE thread.

Discussion in 'audio' started by badger748, Nov 2, 2017.

  1. Purité Audio

    Purité Audio Trade: Purite Audio

    Yet they clearly show the superiority of the 8Cs over your speakers Andy!
    And it is blindingly obvious when you compare them.
    Keith
     
  2. AndyU

    AndyU pfm Member

    Rofl Keith! Why do you sell speakers you have no faith in? Did you set the ATCs up according to the manufacturers recommendations?

    ps i know what causes your notch. It is blindingly obvious.
     
  3. Purité Audio

    Purité Audio Trade: Purite Audio

    They are fine conventional speakers Andy, It is just that things have rather advanced since the 70’s, yes set up exactly as the manufacturer suggests but they can’t create the cardioid response that the 8Cs can, makes a huge difference, add to that the extended bass response, the ease of placement , their adjustability built in a/d d/a EQ etc etc etc.
    Much cheaper too!
    Keith
     
  4. AndyU

    AndyU pfm Member

    How far did you have the ATCs from the wall behind them?
     
  5. firedog

    firedog pfm Member

    "agreed his measurements incompetent"? No, those are your words, not mine. Please don't distort what I write to back up your harassment of Keith, and your general tendency to arrive at the most negative understanding possible of any post.
     
    sq225917 and Emlin like this.
  6. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    Competent or incompetent they do perfectly highlight how utterly useless measurements in anything but a perfectly controlled environment (basically an ananechoic chamber) are to anyone else but the owner of the room. I’ve published a lot of measurements here on pfm and I’d be mortified if people extrapolated them to being representative of the kit in question, it is just the sound from my listening seat at that particular mic position. If one moves the mic 2cm in any direction one gets a different reading! Science is serious stuff, it requires a logic, precision and rigor, whch is entirely missing here. Keith’s room looks like a far less controlled environment than even my own as it is litered with reflective surfaces, undriven transducers etc etc. It may be a bit of fun, but it is not science.
     
  7. Purité Audio

    Purité Audio Trade: Purite Audio

    You have hit the nail on the head, the whole point of these cardioid response loudspeakers is their ability to produce excellent sound quality in an ordinary domestic room, as a mastering engineer who visited here last evening said , at home , ( he uses Genelec ) he can hear the delayed sound from the reflected response in my partially treated room nothing, at home one metre from the speakers perfect, but sit back further the sound is a mess.
    These speakers simply work.
    Keith
     
  8. IceG

    IceG pfm Member

    That's quite the radical solution to getting rid of the boxy sound. ;)
     
    Strictly Stereo likes this.
  9. darrenyeats

    darrenyeats pfm Member

    IMV it's better to place speakers at least 1 metre away from side walls, and if not at least treat first reflection points to mitigate problems with specular reflection. This is particularly important with speakers with an even, wide dispersion. The side wall issue is for all mid/top frequencies up to 10kHz (for bass below Schroeder frequency - rule of thumb 200Hz - boundary placement need not be an issue, in fact <0.5m is better for SBIR than 0.5-2m).

    Cardioid bass is a partial solution to part of the frequency range (upper bass/low-mid frequencies). Therefore IMV cardioid speakers (MEG - who have been around a long time BTW! - Kii and Dutch&Dutch), for reasons of mid/top frequencies up to 10kHz STILL work best away from side walls - and if this is impossible first reflection treatments will still be very helpful. I don't think it's right to sell cardioid bass as a panacea for bad placement.

    For bass frequencies, cardioid speakers should set off fewer room modes. Note directional bass can't be maintained into deep bass, e.g. my room's main mode is 32Hz, well below what a cardioid speaker can help with.

    FWIW of the three mentioned I've heard MEG (RL 901K) and in fact I did like them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2017
  10. Purité Audio

    Purité Audio Trade: Purite Audio

    We are going to get some Geithains it will be interesting to compare their bass only cardioid to the 80Hz -2kHz range of the Kiis for example, I believe that D&D believe that it is more important to ameliorate colouration in the presence region.
    Keith
     
  11. S-Man

    S-Man Kinkless Tetrode Admirer

    When I had the Kiis on demo at home nothing struck me as noticeably different as regards cardioid dispersion patterns. Maybe I just have a good room?
    The bass perfomance of the Kiis was the main area where they fell short. They certainly didn't sound "ported" in that the low frequencies started and stopped accurately, but they seemed to lack pitch definition and bass extension.
     
  12. Strictly Stereo

    Strictly Stereo Trade: Strictly Stereo

    Please could you explain what you mean by "pitch definition"? They did not seem to lack bass extension when I heard them in your room. Your own speakers might dig a bit deeper, but I suspect not by much.
     
  13. S-Man

    S-Man Kinkless Tetrode Admirer

    By"pitch defnition" I mean the ability to hear the tune of bass instruments. Of course this is strongly influenced by the integration between the fundamental and the harmonics.

    Also, to put things into context, the Kiis are pretty good in the bass. Noticeably superior to almost all ported speakers (including ATC50 actives).
     
  14. sunbeamgls

    sunbeamgls pfm Member

    No, I haven't seen anything here that clearly shows superiority. What I've seen are some in-room FR plots. That is an incredibly narrow view of what makes a good speaker. Think wider, listen to the music. An FR plot is far too simple a way to choose any speaker.
     
  15. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    Indeed. Room plot = a crude quantity measurement. That is all.
     
  16. Purité Audio

    Purité Audio Trade: Purite Audio

    What would you be looking for then Sunbeam, how would you define a loudspeaker if not through its frequency response/dispersion?
    Keith
     
  17. AndyU

    AndyU pfm Member

    rofl! You really don't know? Really!? You think that FR and dispersion are the only possible, useful measurements you can make of a speaker? Really?
     
  18. Purité Audio

    Purité Audio Trade: Purite Audio

    I am always ready to learn Andy, off you go...
    Keith
     
  19. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    Back to you Keith as you are selling yourself as some kind of ‘expert’ and sneering at the views of others; do you really think a simplistic quantity measurement tells the whole story?
     
  20. Purité Audio

    Purité Audio Trade: Purite Audio

    I know I am not an ‘expert’ at anything, and I don’t believe for a moment that my one position measurement even begins to describe how a loudspeaker sounds.
    I am always keen to learn and discuss we could look at distortion, step response ...
    Keith
     

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