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Trump Part 11

Discussion in 'off topic' started by Gaius, Oct 24, 2017.

  1. Stunsworth

    Stunsworth pfm Member

    Of course not. I’m questioning his judgement that Trump was the better of the two candidates.
     
  2. droodzilla

    droodzilla pfm Member

    Two extreme views in play here.

    Firstly, it's an exaggeration to say the number one reason Clinton lost is misogyny. Her association with "the political establishment" and consequent failure to resonate with poor working class voters was a far bigger factor.

    On the other hand anyone who thinks misogyny didn't play *a* part is also mistaken. Some men resent powerful women, and Trump milked that resentment for all it was worth: TRUMP THAT BITCH, indeed. And yes I know female Trump supporters also wore those t-shirts; some members of the working class in the UK vote Tory - people are strange.

    As an aside, I think the idea that Trump's supporters voted for him because he said he would end foreign wars is also misguided. I suspect we'll find that out soon enough, and that support for Trump will remain strong among his core voters even when he starts his own war.
     
    Still likes this.
  3. Ciunas Audio

    Ciunas Audio Trade: Ciunas Audio

    I don't believe Trump's core supporters actually voted for him expecting anything he actually promised, otherwise their numbers would be falling & they're not. He is providing something else that they tap into - is it that they like a 'reality TV show'; is it that they like him hitting out at all the things that they dislike - media, women, blacks, liberals, elites, democrats, etc? (some of these need a good kicking)

    He taps into this & performs as a stereotype for this group. He's not one of them so this sensibility is not innate - he gets it from his viewing of TV, Fox news, etc.
    He's a performer who gets his direction & lines from his TV viewing.
    I can't see this loop being broken, unfortunately.
     
  4. Yank

    Yank Bulbous Also Tapered

    That was The Virgin Mandy.
     
  5. Yank

    Yank Bulbous Also Tapered

    Now that Trump has finally gone to Vietnam, I guess that means his problem with heel spurs got better...
     
    Still and Sue Pertwee-Tyr like this.
  6. Ciunas Audio

    Ciunas Audio Trade: Ciunas Audio

    The reason he didn't go to the DMZ in Korea was that, with his heel spurs, he couldn't run away as fast as the others
     
  7. martin clark

    martin clark pinko bodger

  8. avole

    avole pfm Member

    Meanwhile, back in the real world, Trump’s Asian visit has not been a success. He has been feted wherever he goes, but the fact remains thap rhe TPP is going ahead without US participation, and the tone of the APEC conference was one in favour of multilateralism. Even Thailand, a close supporter of the US, is strongly in favour, though it has, perhaps cynically, remarked that it is happy to negotiate bilateral agreements with other countries providing there are benefits for Thailand.

    It is worth.bearing in mind that the country with by far the biggest influence both politically and commercially in Southeast Asia is China, which again repeated its support for the TPP and multilateralism. It looks increasingly like all Trump has succeeded in doing is to marginalise his own country in a region whose economic growth has already shifted away from dependence on the US.

    Perhaps sadder for the US, is that everybody from Macron through Xi to Prawat knows that Trump can be manipulated by the simple strategem of flattery. It was interesting to watch this in action both in France and in China. I saw the clossing addresses by Trump and Xi, which couldn’t have been more contrasting. Trump listed his great trade and foreign policy successes, of the talks, while Xi in a careful speech said nothing had been given away on his side, as indeed it hadn’t. It was Trump who had to backtrack on all his accusations against China. He was also shown to be powerless regarding North Korea, which is not a happy situation for anyone.
     
  9. vuk

    vuk \o/ choose anarchy

    i will repeat the point i made earlier: the sense that we have of misogyny (assuming a reliable measurement of it) is most likely a post-evaluation psychological mechanism of cognitive dissonance reduction, justification or plain old gloating. cltinton is initially rejected because of party affiliation, what follows is unconscious rationalization -- it's that simple for 99% of cases. the vulgar, anti-woman sentiments expressed afterwards may enter the cultural space -- and i agree that they did -- but they are primarily post hoc.

    if she were the republican candidate (which is hardly a stretch), i suspect you'd witness the sort of dominatrix fetish regularly on display in this very forum from a certain resident of swindon vis a vis a famous british tory. this is politics as sport fandom. messi at real madrid would be a god.

    what i think may not be appreciated here is the overpowering effect of celebrity. you can't simply transpose the way sexism and racism function in the banal routines of everyday life to what happens on the big political stage.


    vuk.
     
    maxflinn likes this.
  10. vuk

    vuk \o/ choose anarchy

    yeah, i get it and was making a rhetorical point. just trying to give peace a chance here. we wee discussing something a lot more specific: why hillary lost.

    cheers from the happy new forum,
    vuk.
     
  11. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    The poison dwarf's words, "lock her up" are so beautifully coming back to haunt him in the most literal sense.
     
    Still and PsB like this.
  12. wacko

    wacko pfm Member

    It could be worse: Dotard has neglected to appoint people to thousands of Government jobs. Nobody is almost certainly better than the people he would choose.
     
  13. droodzilla

    droodzilla pfm Member

    Yes, political antipathy comes first in many (probably a majority) of cases but:

    1. Plenty of men are (still!) predisposed to resent powerful women; this makes it easier for political antipathy to gain a foothold.

    2. Where political antipathy really does come first, any ingrained misogyny will tend to intensify and sustain it if the candidate is female.

    So the fact that the misogyny is post hoc in some (or even many) cases doesn't limit its role.

    As for how we reliably "measure" misogyny, it doesn't take a finely callibrated instrument to detect it in the "Trump That Bitch" t-shirts sold at rallies (the b-word is usually a good indicator). There are more examples here: https://www.thecut.com/2016/10/the-most-misogynistic-things-people-wore-to-trump-rallies.html.

    A good general test of misogyny is to ask yourself whether people would feel nearly so much hatred for an indiviual woman if she were a man doing exactly the same things. I accept that you may well pass this test when applied to Clinton.

    Celebrity - yes, that has an effect. In some ways it must make misogyny easier to deal with (wealth = protection), but in other ways it must heighten the insult and, in any case, famous women are by defintion exposed to more public humiliation. So I prefer to say it modulates, rather than mitigates, the experience.
     
  14. avole

    avole pfm Member

    Why on earth is this still being discussed? You are just pandering to someone else's obsession.

    If you want to continue do do so, then create an appropriate thread rather than continuing to waylay this one with irrelevancies.
     
  15. maxflinn

    maxflinn Always Trying To Be Logical

    Vuk, the ignore function is great on this XenForo platform. You don't see any output from ignored members, even if somebody else quotes them.

    It's as if they don't exist.

    Just sayin'...
     
  16. kendo

    kendo gloominati

    Hmm, a blank post with nothing on show? Wot's that then?


    (...just kidding Max...)
     
    maxflinn likes this.
  17. avole

    avole pfm Member

    A cowardly option, surely. Hiding from the truth is never a good idea, even if you don't like it.

    Just saying...
     
  18. Still

    Still gyldengourd

    Ignoring different opinions is a very bad idea.
    Using the ignore function to take trolls and time wasters out of the debate is almost certainly a good idea.
     
  19. Sue Pertwee-Tyr

    Sue Pertwee-Tyr pfm Member

    I agree that using the ignore function to eliminate those you simply dislike or disagree with is not smart. It risks putting you in a bubble of your own devising, hearing only opinions which chime with your own. Also, I find trolls easy enough just to skip past, or disregard.And if they are really being a nuisance and dragging down a thread, I want to be able to report the post(s). Having them on ignore would prevent that.

    Personally, I prefer to keep such people where I can see them, doing what I can see them doing.
     
  20. Joe Hutch

    Joe Hutch Can you hear Talvin Singh?

    Hiding from the truth may never be a good idea, but hiding from someone who trots out the same old stuff day after day? In real life, it's just common sense to avoid people you know are going to bore you with their interminable guff about how they took the B6743 to avoid the roadworks on the A34, but then had to re-route themselves because traffic was queuing behind a slow-moving farm vehicle, then they were stopped by the police, nothing serious, just a traffic survey thing, then after that they pulled in at a lay-by for a coffee and sandwich. They never use service stations, the food's over-priced and the coffee's no great shakes either. Anyway, that took 30 minutes or so, by then it was raining hard, so that added maybe another ten minutes or so to the journey time and [cont'd p.94], so on pfm why not ignore people who you know are never going to say anything remotely interesting and/or are going to say something so jaw-droppingly stupid that you'd earn yourself an instant ban if you actually told them what you really thought of their nonsensical idea that even a child of four could tell them was rubbish?

    The problem is not the use of the 'ignore' function. The problem is telling everyone you're using it, and, even worse, advocating that others ignore the people you're ignoring because, well, it's not like people can make up their own minds on the matter, is it? Oh, and the lame 'You're on my ignore list but I'm commenting on your post anyway, because I'm a gobshite' is just as bad.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017

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