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Can we hear anything, allowed to hear anything, or are you deaf/stupid?

Discussion in 'audio' started by Cereal Killer, Feb 4, 2020.

  1. Mr Pig

    Mr Pig ^'- -'^

  2. pocketkitchen

    pocketkitchen Registered User

    The "shit-bombing" Tony describes is exactly the reason I rarely comment on audio threads. Every time some poor sod asks about a cable making a difference it simply isn't enough for someone to say that cables can't make a difference beyond LCR and that's that. Nothing wrong with saying it's all nonsense and that all cable companies are snake oil salesmen but repeating ad nauseum ruins an open forum by trying to close it. Other topics are available, that's simply the most obvious one.
     
  3. Jonathan

    Jonathan pfm Member

    I most definitely have ... that’s why I put away my spec sheets .. I remember during the period when yamaha’s ‘natural sound’ amplifiers and components were a thing ... maybe around 1980-82 ...? They had me believing that nothing less than 100 wpc and one part per million THD would do the trick ... then I heard a few amplifiers ... one rated at something over 0.1% THD ... maybe the most transparent sounding amplifier I ever heard before that point... and then I heard one of the first model mark levinsons ... maybe the most powerful amplifier I’d ever heard ... and it was rated at something around 18 watts maybe (?) ... but of course was capable of absurdly high transients .. this opened a whole new world for me ... of course much of this is probably due to my own fallacious assumptions ... but so are the experiences of others I suppose ..?
     
    Gaslight likes this.
  4. Jonathan

    Jonathan pfm Member

    There is a manufacturer of ‘high end’ microphones (ok not home audio gear - but microphones are especially subject to spec-whoring to coin a phrase) who REFUSE to publish any specifications ever on any of their products. Quite cool I thought. I suspect the owner of the company, Dirk Brauner of brauner microphones, feels much the way some of us do!
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
    Gaslight and Andrew C! like this.
  5. narabdela

    narabdela who?

    Amen to that. ‘Nuff said.
     
    Shadders likes this.
  6. Shadders

    Shadders pfm Member

    Hi,
    As another suggestion, why not precursor the thread title with five letters/characters to denote an objective thread or subjective thread as follows :

    "Obj: "
    "Sub: "

    So a thread could be called :

    Sub: Bettering a Michell Gyro SE
    Obj: CD Green Pens

    Sub: Which is better, Directional Cables or Cable Lifters.

    If a thread is objective or subjective, then neither can comment on the other.

    Regards,
    Shadders.
     
  7. DimitryZ

    DimitryZ pfm Member

    They sound different because they use differen amplifying devices and produce different distortion spectra, have different bandwidth, slew rates and damping factors, etc. I don't think there is a conundrum.
     
  8. Mr Pig

    Mr Pig ^'- -'^

    Bit totalitarian don't you think?
     
    camverton and Sue Pertwee-Tyr like this.
  9. Shadders

    Shadders pfm Member

    Hi,
    No, it would stop immediately the issues complained about.

    Some people have said what an objectivist can state on a thread, but there will always be those statements where as an objectivist you will worry what you can/cannot say. Everyone has a view, but reading this threads comments by subjectivists, they seem to not want any objective statements.

    I think many objectivists will be happy never to comment on a subjective thread, if it is marked as such.

    Regards,
    Shadders.
     
  10. Joe P

    Joe P certified Buffologist / mod

    Shadders,

    As a mod here I think I can say with near certainty that this is totally unworkable. Running purely subjective or objective threads would require constant policing to ensure that if there’s a hint of objectivism on a subjective thread it’s obliterated and vice versa.

    Besides, the best ideas come from cross-fertilization and pfm has always been a catch-all audio forum as opposed to a purely subjective one like xxxxx [sorry, its name cannot be spoken] or a purely objective one like Hydrogen Audio. Personally, I’ve learned a lot from some of the more objective fishies here — Rob H, Jez, you, Jim, and many others. I don’t mind someone telling me I’m full of it, as long as it’s done respectfully.

    The solution is really easy. Fishies simply need to chill a bit.

    That said, this is the 23,765th thread about objectivism vs subjectivism on the forum to date. We obviously love the tension and fun that ensues from it.

    Joe
     
  11. sunbeamgls

    sunbeamgls pfm Member

    Because it is what they listen with and how they process the incoming information.
    The individual's experience of the musical message processed in their own head is the only one that matters.
    That's why some appreciate drum 'n' bass and others prefer Mozart. Its about the musical message and emotion experienced by the individual, not about the FR experienced by REW.
     
    Jonathan and Sue Pertwee-Tyr like this.
  12. sunbeamgls

    sunbeamgls pfm Member

    Probably. That's why they're hifi enthusiasts in contrast to music lovers striving for the best experience.
    Why does the enjoyment of music, which is entirely subjective and personal, have to be turned into a set of inadequate measurements?
     
    Sue Pertwee-Tyr likes this.
  13. RossB

    RossB Member

    I've been a member of this forum since 2003 but I rarely post here these days, mostly because this issue. The forum seems to be dominated by a minority of self-appointed experts who are determined to shut down any subjective discussion, usually with a sneer of condescension.

    This is unfortunate since PFM used to be one of the most pleasant and easygoing hifi forums around. Now every thread turns into an epic battle of ideologies while more moderate members - the vast majority - just tune out and go somewhere else.

    The irony is that the so-called "objectivists" throw around terms like "science" and "physics" and "double blind testing" as if they are really experts in these things, but of course they are not. They are classic examples of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. We see people being told that something - a re-clocker, a cable or whatever - cannot sound different because that would break all the laws of physics. Please. The laws of physics are a little less restrictive than what is capable of being shown on your digital multimeter.

    And the constant refrain of "sighted" vs "unsighted", as if this particular parlour game is of any scientific validity. Double blind testing, when conducted in important areas like medical research, is done using rigorous protocols with large numbers of test subjects over long periods, using objectively verifiable measured outputs. If the so-called hifi objectivists were in charge we would be testing cancer drugs by asking patients to pop pill A, then pop pill B, and asking them with their eyes closed if they can tell the difference between them. Hi fi objectivists would say that two drugs are exactly the same because they are the same shape. Thankfully, real scientists are not as stupid as the hifi "objectivists".

    Of course measurements and solid engineering are essential in hi fi. They are fundamental to designing it, but the best audio designers also listen to their designs and make adjustments based on listening tests as well. And as consumers, we are fully entitled to judge audio based on how we hear it, and to engage in friendly discussions about what we hear, without being sneered at by someone who has a basic understanding of jitter or cable inductance or whatever and therefore thinks they are the lone voice of "science".
     
  14. joe9407

    joe9407 actress/activist

    What about the voice of Geddy Lee:
    How did it get so high?
    I wonder if he speaks like an ordinary guy?
    "I know him and he does."
    Well, you're my fact-checkin' cuz.
     
    irb likes this.
  15. Cereal Killer

    Cereal Killer 432 Point5

    Fourlegs likes this.
  16. Tw99

    Tw99 source last

    irb and Shadders like this.
  17. Cereal Killer

    Cereal Killer 432 Point5

    This thread isn't about the subject matter, its about the behaviour encountered on recent discussion where someone might say "i heard an improvement" then theres an instant "show me a graph to prove it" or you're a stupid deluded fcuker.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
    Jonathan and suzywong like this.
  18. clivem2

    clivem2 pfm Member

  19. Cereal Killer

    Cereal Killer 432 Point5

    @Tw99 If you care to stalk my profile fully, you'll see my cables are still "budget" plain vanilla type, but over the years i have learnt whats important and not, to me.

    Full system details: (to save you some time ;))

    System:
    Amp: Audionet DNA 2.0 + EPS G2 PSU
    Speakers: 432 Point5 (DIY)
    Stands: solidsteel SS-5
    Speaker cables: Atlas Ichor MK2 (aka Mavros)

    Roon & UPNP/DLNA Server:
    QNAP TS-251+8GB RAM & 2x1TB Sandisk ultra II SSDs
    Teddy Pardo Dual 12v LPSU
    TP-Link Archer VR-900 Switch/Router

    Cables:
    Mains cables: H07RN-F 3 x 2.5mm with NAC3FX & NAC3MX (DIY)
    Mains distribution: DCT03 + 432 Point5 4-way NAC3FPX & NAC3FPX (DIY)
    USB cable: Nobility Eagle E-580US
    Network cables: Metz CAT-7 MC GC1000 Plus23
     
  20. Andrew C!

    Andrew C! Been around a while....

    I'm sure some contributors don’t post deliberately in a sinister or trolling way, but others sure do - especially on a topic involving non measured opinion.
     
    Sue Pertwee-Tyr likes this.

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