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Carl Beech "Nick" on trial

Discussion in 'off topic' started by Cav, May 14, 2019.

  1. Cav

    Cav pfm Member

    Surely they were listening to and believing Nick and trying to keep the baying mob (in the press and here btw) happy rather than applying some basic investigatory practice and common sense.
     
  2. SteveG

    SteveG pfm Member

    I think it was due to the publicity of the Jimmy Saville case that the police etc. were more inclined to run with something like this "just in case" even though it doesn't sound like it should have been particularly believable. Also there certainly seemed to be a certain element of the press and public (including on here!) that seemed to want it to be true, considering who the allegations were against.
     
    jackbarron likes this.
  3. Tim Jones

    Tim Jones pfm Member

    Yes, that's about right I suspect.

    The "Westminster Paedo Party" thread here is 37 pages long. It would just be unkind to quote from it.

    None of this is remotely to deny that those in power have used that power for the purposes of sexual abuse. But in the final analysis, Beech and the lynch mob mentality his "evidence" have fomented do no good whatsoever for the discovery and pursuit of such cases.
     
  4. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    I don’t really have any issue with that thread. This was all being so widely reported by so countless called ‘reputable’ news sources and came at the time of simply astonishing levels of proven institutional child abuse and cover-ups being revealed in organised religion, education and the entertainment industry. I know you like to defend the Conservative Party/establishment in most things, but the evidence being released at the time via the police and media pointed many fingers at them so what were we expected to think? It is also significant how the police signed-off the accusations relating to Edward Heath, i.e. they did not exonerate him by any stretch.

    The thread remains a snap-shot of the time, of the coverage from all areas of the establishment from the police, the BBC, C4 and Sky TV news, the Sun, Mail, Express through to the Telegraph, Times and Guardian. As stated above I want to really get to the truth here as there is a lot about this story that makes no sense looking back. If what we are being told now is true I find it beyond incomprehensible that a lone convicted pedophile can bring the whole establishment to the brink of collapse and feed a two-year media false narrative. Something still smells funny to me about the whole thing!
     
    jackbarron and kendo like this.
  5. Tim Jones

    Tim Jones pfm Member

    What was released wasn't evidence Tony. It was that "x" had said "y"; largely Beech's allegations and the point that one of the officers (and Tom Watson) felt that they were credible; in the context of Savile, Smith, etc. That's perfectly reasonable reporting, but it is a fundamental mistake to confuse it with evidence.

    I'm not interested in defending the Establishment for the sake of it, especially in this context - but the prevailing principle in that thread was that (and I'm quoting you here) "many of those who were targeted were arseholes so not too much of a stretch to assume the accusations had credibility."

    That represents a slippery slope towards saying that because someone is rich/powerful/famous or (worse) that because you don't agree with their politics, they should be denied the same defences and legal principles that apply to you or I.
     
    lazycat and sean99 like this.
  6. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    I agree that was not a wise or sensible comment and whilst I firmly believe most in the frame were arseholes, their political legacy proves that beyond any real doubt, it was beyond dumb to make any link and far below the level I usually try to write at. I haven’t reread the thread but I hope my argument overall stands up to a little more scrutiny than that. It is always embarrassing to be caught up in any national mass hysteria, but in my defence the Deputy Leader of the Labour Party and others similarly with far more information at hand than I had fell for it and used far more colourful language!

    I don’t think I was ever arguing for anything beyond shining a very bright spotlight and exposing truth, which is the position I still hold, i.e. I never argued for anything but due legal process. There just happens to be a particular political class that I do not trust not to cover-up bad behaviour, anything from not declaring interests, paying the right amount of tax, defrauding expenses etc upwards. I still maintain something does not add up here and I suspect a lot more is to come out as I simply do not believe one lone and previously convicted sex-offender crank can cause so much damage. I still want to know *exactly* what is behind this whole thing. For example if this was an orchestrated far-left smear campaign of some kind then I want to know and for those behind it to be prosecuted. It just doesn’t make sense to me, and I don’t like that.

    PS ‘Exaro News’ is the last fringe news media outlet I ever viewed. Whilst the mainstream news has many, many faults, and showed itself very wanting here, this experience has driven me right away from all political opinion sites, blogs, YouTube channels etc. Unless something is on a mainstream platform one can actually sue for libel etc I’m not going to bother wasting my time even reading it!
     
  7. Cav

    Cav pfm Member

    It seems this thread is in danger of going the way of the first. There still seems to be a desperate desire for those in public life, that some people don't like for whatever reason, to be found guilty of something, anything because they deserve it.

    I have lost count of the number of times, in many threads, where I have suggested that people should let the legal process reach its conclusion. Who knows, it might answer your concerns.
     
    MikeMA likes this.
  8. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    In fairness you have nothing to say about music, nothing to say about audio, and all you do is to regularly appear in off topic trying to shut-down discussion! I honestly have no idea why you visit this site at all!
     
  9. thebiglebowski

    thebiglebowski pfm Member

    I think there should be a public inquiry into Cavs activities on pfm but we should all wait until it is completed and the findings published as any views posted here are pure speculation.
     
    Rob998, jackbarron and Tim Jones like this.
  10. SteveG

    SteveG pfm Member

    I recall that thread and in it you did come over as almost foaming at the mouth in the hope that it was true. I suspect that was probably more about your disgust for mainstream politics (especially since your beloved LibDems betrayed everything you thought they stood for) and a hope that it'd bring those down than anything else.
     
    Derek Wright likes this.
  11. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    I’m not sure that is fair. I’ve just very quickly skimmed through jumping many pages just to get a feel as I’ve forgotten most of it and I don’t think I was doing that much more than commenting on very widely reported news. Throughout the thread I appear to be trying to cite credible major news media and key political figures, reining the thread back in, removing links to libellous conspiracy sites (even if these are sometimes anonymously paraphrased) etc.

    One thing skimming the thread brought back is the huge part my then local Labour MP, the now disgraced sex-pest, expenses fraudster, fantasist and all-round shit-stirrer Simon Danczuk, played in the story. I certainly wasn’t “foaming” as much as him, Tom Watson and many others with clear political agendas! It is easy to apply revisionism here, but surely any blame has to lie with those who drove the story (e.g. the mainstream media, Labour politicians etc), not with mere spectators who made the perfectly understandable mistake of believing them? A little naive maybe, but I think “foaming” is unfair.

    PS Would it be too much to ask Deputy Labour Leader Tom Watson to resign over this if it is proved he was entirely wrong and was using the story for political capital?
     
  12. SteveG

    SteveG pfm Member

    Ok, maybe foaming at the mouth was a little strong however you did seem somewhat gleeful about it because it was people you clearly hated. That seemed to override what should have been some healthy scepticism about something that looked very unlikely to be actually true, and I'm certainly not surprised it's turned out to be a fraud perpetrated by a scumbag on those who were rather to keen to believe despite a total lack of any evidence.
     
    Tim Jones and Derek Wright like this.
  13. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    A juicy prospect for right wing journalists and politicians - and yet I'd expect the take up rate to be a big fat zero, for obvious reasons.
     
  14. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    Agreed. Lesson hopefully learned (as I say I’ve all but rejected any outlying news sources now and understand a little more about echo chambers etc). I do remain surprised by the whole thing, but I honestly had no idea it was the word of a single person. The implication given at many times was there was more to it than that.
     
  15. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    Why? If even little people like me who fell for the news coverage are getting attacked for believing it I’d expect the story’s ringleaders/drivers to face rather more criticism!
     
  16. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    From people who spend much of their professional lives doing exactly what you think Watson was doing?!

    No, there are some things you can do all day long and face no censure from the 4th estate: indulge in casual racism; call for obviously immoral and strategically disastrous wars; be floridly wrong about the play of political forces in the country; and whip up a bit of hatred against an out of touch political elite. Call it professional solidarity (the profession being grifting).
     
  17. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    Thinking about it I was unfair to Watson, though I did obviously assume he had far more information than was in the public domain prior to making the comments he dud. I think he is a decent bloke (unlike Danczuk, obvs!) and was almost certainly acting in good faith about what at the time appeared to be a plausible story. Really all I’m doing here is expressing utter bafflement as to how this grew to something so huge and stayed at that level for so long with so many seemingly credible people driving it. I don’t understand how the police spent £millions on multiple very high-profile investigations if it really was all on the word of one apparently convicted pedophile fantasist. It just doesn’t seem possible.
     
  18. Steve Taylor

    Steve Taylor pfm Member

    Nice one Tony.
    You've clearly just spotted how much effort TWatson has spent undermining the best hope the working class have had for 40 years. Class.
     
  19. Tim Jones

    Tim Jones pfm Member

    I'll probably regret saying this, but in fairness to you Tony, you're pretty much the only person in that thread who've actually turned up to discuss in this one.

    But the state of mind that suggests "everyone was talking about it, so there must be something in it" is a different facet of the same disregard that the Beech case highlights.

    I can sort-of see that the police thought they were getting on the right side of history, but it seems with this and some other significant misjudgements (eg the Cliff Richard raid), they lost a sense of proportion along the way.
     
  20. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    What?
     

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