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Election night 2019 / aftermath II

Discussion in 'off topic' started by Joe, Dec 15, 2019.

  1. Joe

    Joe pfm Member

    Except we don't.

    The disproportionate spending on London is ,and always has been, a bone of contention in the North.

    Transport....£419 per head more then the rest of the country . ( the rest of the country are paying for it )


    Arts...15 times greater than outside London. ( the rest of the country are paying for it )


    Unless these discrepancies are addressed there will be no cohesion in the country and the country will find it much much harder to resist being dismantled. There never really has been a Union. It has always been London and The Rest.
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2019
    misterdog, Covkxw, sean99 and 3 others like this.
  2. Joe

    Joe pfm Member

    You do post some stuff at times !

    You do know that teachers, nurses , public employees of all sorts ( and everyone else ) all pay tax ?

    a) therefor it's not "free stuff". Everyone else has to pay for it.
    b) The people the money is taken from do know what to do with their money. A lot of them are hard pressed to pay their own bills too.

    The problem with your form of armchair socialism* is you really do think that it is just a question of taking money from people you hate and giving it away to people you like.

    * If you a member of the Labour party, attend ward meetings and canvass for them I will amend my post for you .
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2019
    Rcook, tonerei, Ponty and 2 others like this.
  3. Philim

    Philim pfm Member

    As with most things in life the reality is somewhere in the middle. It is with much frustration that because sides are so polarised no sensible debate in the middle ground can be had. If it could have I am sure brexit wouldnt have happened.
    oldius likes this.
  4. Joe

    Joe pfm Member

    Have you ANY idea how close all of what you wrote is to the writings of Hitler ? ..just change 'capitalist scum' for 'Jewish zionist conspiracy '. Change 'tory scum' for the same.

    I no more want your world than his. You are the very people that he appealed to at first ...he relied on his supporters being as "thick as mince" too.
    misterdog, Woodface and Funk like this.
  5. Philim

    Philim pfm Member

    unfortunately it appears labour is sticking to its approach of blaming everyone else for its issues and not recognising why it got battered. That is a shame as we will need a strong opposition.
    If the labour party doesn't wrestle itself away from student union politics and more centre left it will repeat this again in 5 years.
    It needs to offer hope not hatred fear and lies.
    eternumviti and Funk like this.
  6. Philim

    Philim pfm Member

    Most people in this country did realise this which is why they are where they are.
    They thought they could put a veneer of nice, cuddly corbyn around it and they could buy people's vote with lies and fear. Thankfully the public were not as thick as these people wish they were. I hope that whatever emerges from the flames of labour; it banishes views like that to the same place bnp went.
    eternumviti and Funk like this.
  7. deanf

    deanf pfm Member

    The Labour Party would do better to spend a little time listening rather than talking. Too many live in a vacuum.
    sean99, bob atherton and Funk like this.
  8. oldius

    oldius Woolly soundstage.

    There is definitely a lot of truth in that. It is a genuine problem because what we then achieve are politicians who want power, not politicians who believe in what they say. Achieving power though is the only way to truly influence the country's direction. I certainly do not hate billionaires; I do not hate anyone I do not know, but I do despise a government that allows and promotes behaviours in the wealthy that would not be tolerated by the majority of people in the UK; tax avoidance being the main one. I know that Oxfam believe that there is $21 trillion invested offshore! That cannot be right in a society with the social ills we face. Meanwhile, the media which is owned by billionaires who are based offshore, is allowed to dramatically influence political thinking.

    As for "student union politics", it is an easy slur to make and is the kind of insult cast in the currently triumphalist pages of the Daily Mail. Their pages and comments sections for a number of stories are full of bile about young people and their aspirations for society. If we wish to advance, listening properly to young people, with the intention of being influenced, will make for a better society.
    Fatmarley, Covkxw, jackbarron and 3 others like this.
  9. NeilR

    NeilR pfm Member

    if you read what Labour people on here like Robert are saying, it is all going according to the master plan and all they need now is another left wing leader in the Corbyn mould for one more push. The theory being that the country will come to them not the other way round.
    Funk, deanf and doctorf like this.
  10. Philim

    Philim pfm Member

    Meanwhile they completely missed the fact that the Tories stole the middle ground where elections are won.
    Funk likes this.
  11. ciderglider

    ciderglider pfm Member

    Unionisation sounds like a great idea, but easier said than done. I wouldn't think you would get many recruits among white collar workers. And I would think Amazon and their like do everything they can to resist union recognition.
  12. chartz

    chartz pfm Member

    Here in France socialists and Greens tell the truth about political issues. They actually care.
    The other guys try very hard to tell people what they might want to hear, then do the contrary.
    They don’t give a damn about people’s everyday lives.
    DonQuixote99 likes this.
  13. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    Do they really go in and attack though? To my mind that has been a major failure of Labour in this campaign. They tried never to go ‘low’, which whilst admirable in some ways I am certain cost them dearly against Cummings vacuous soundbites, blatant lies and distortions. I was thinking about this late last night and in hindsight I’d have absolutely weaponised the following:

    • Windrush: I’d have bill posters of Theresa May’s face behind a list of those deported or driven to their death.

    • Grenfell: I’d use Steve Bell’s wonderful cartoon of the burnt out husk of the tower with the Conservative logo on top and a slogan along the lines of ‘A beacon to Conservative cost-cutting and intransigence’ along with a web-link to all the safety concerns flagged by the residents association and the fact the local Tory administration actually cut the council tax for the richest people in the country whilst cutting corners that cost so many lives. They do actually own these deaths.

    • Hostile Environment: I’d just contrast and compare it to the propaganda in early Nazi Germany and maybe have a ‘who said the following’ quiz with a statement and a) Joseph Goebells, b) Michael Gove (or whoever, there is a lot of mileage here).

    • Benefits: A backdrop of IDS and Esther McVey with the substantial list of handicapped people driven to suicide by their ‘bedroom tax’ and venal repeated ‘fitness for work’ assessments (all too often by unqualified privatised entities) etc. Lots of mileage here. Lots of names .

    • Homelessness: one person dies on the streets of the UK every 19 hours. The Conservative Party owns that one outright. They also own the thousands who barely survive each night.

    • Hospitals: again just use the message that Conservative penny pinching costs lives. List those lives. All of them. Like on a war grave.

    I fundamentally disagree with Jez in that I absolutely oppose lying. I'd not touch anything I couldn’t very easily verify with hard facts from government sources. Everything must stand up to the brightest spotlight, but the basic message should be to connect the Conservative party to the death and misery they alone have created, and do so in a very personal way. Nail it onto specific MPs etc.

    PS I didn’t mention Brexit once, though obviously I’d have made the anti-white ethnic nationalism/fascism case there too.
  14. notaclue

    notaclue pfm Member

    "Labour lost vote share in 98% of seats" https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...nge-as-johnson-eyes-decade-in-no-10-rkw86zvfr

    And that article says Johnson is likely to introduce the planned boundary changes. The majority Johnson got suggests he'll be another multi-term Thatcher or Blair so I reckon it's almost inevitable that he'll be able to introduce the changes.

    As if the current map isn't bad enough. Without PR, we'll be looking at Tory governments for an awfully long time.

    The fear of losing Scotland and Northern Ireland will be the most effective opposition over the next few years.

  15. Alex S

    Alex S carbon based lifeform

    I've been listening to Johnson over the last couple of days and it turns out I made a big mistake in this election. I care for the poor, the hungry, the sick, the homeless, the disabled, the young, the planet. I embrace multiculturalism, multi ethnicity, Europeans, immigration and didn't vote from self interest. I should have voted Conservative! Thankfully, I'm in a minority and they have won a big majority.
    Darmok and TheDecameron like this.
  16. Funk

    Funk pfm Member

    Couldn't agree more. We need a competent, functioning opposition to hold any sitting government to account, no matter which colour rosette they each have on.
  17. matthewr

    matthewr spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld

    I don't think it is though. It has a plurality of views that mean it seems different to much of what one hears on the BBC and, especially, in the press. There are plenty of centre right, right and some hard right voices here.
    Sue Pertwee-Tyr and Covkxw like this.
  18. Funk

    Funk pfm Member

    That's good to know. Balance is important.
  19. Mike Reed

    Mike Reed pfm Member

    Now that the Nationalists have the majority in N.I., I wonder how the vote would go if a referendum were held to become a united Ireland (again) or remain separated. Scotland, I feel, is a different matter, and I'm not at all sure if the rise of the SNP denotes an overall swing to independence or simply frustration at domestic policies. Has there really been such a massive change of heart in a few years that Scotland can successfully go it alone and realign with the E.U.?
  20. Ponty

    Ponty pfm Member

    An old boss of mine always used to say you’ve got 2 ears and one mouth for a reason, use them in that ratio.

    I do hope that labour sort themselves out as under our current system, we desperately need an effective opposition for a fully functioning government. If another momentum / Corbyn type takes over, Boris will be using a zimmer frame before he leaves No 10.
    Steven Toy likes this.

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