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Fatal Audiophile comparison errors!

Discussion in 'trade discussion' started by Purité Audio, Nov 11, 2017.

  1. Johnny2Bad

    Johnny2Bad Well-Known Member

    With regard to the OP's post, yes, there are some issues with subjective listening tests, but none the less, that is how we expect our equipment to do the task we assign it. So it cannot be said that subjective listening is invalid; it is in essence the only valid assessment.

    There are considerable problems with blind (and double-blind) listening tests as well. Ignoring for the moment that I rarely see proper double-blind tests actually performed (making the results invalid from the pure objectivist point of view right from the start, yet conveniently ignored in most cases), there is the fundamental issue that untrained listeners prefer low-fi to mid-fi and mid-fi to hi-fi (as proven as far back as the 1940's)(1) and that those same listeners, if broken into three groups, where one group is exposed to HiFi for a period of time, one group is exposed to Mid-Fi for the same period of time, and the third (control group) is left alone with no listening exposure, then the group exposed to HiFi suddenly prefers the HiFi, the second group now prefers the Mid-Fi and the control group remains preferring the LoFi (experiment done in the 1950's to expand on the conclusions of the first). Conclusion: people prefer what they are used to hearing, but can be trained to listen for quality reproduction.(2)

    It amazes me we still are dragging this dead cat around 65 years later and that some insist they can "prove" the cat is still alive.

    1: Howard A Chinn and Phillip Eisenberg, CBS
    System was identical, studio-grade components (0.3% THD) but frequency-response limited as follows:
    40~10,000 Hz
    80~7,000 Hz
    180~4,000 Hz

    2: E. Kirk, Ohio State University
    Six weeks duration between first experiment (which duplicated Chinn/Eisenberg and had the same result) and second phase.
     
    Dozey and darrenyeats like this.
  2. Alexh

    Alexh pfm Member

    DBT was used to determine that fully compressed MP3 is the same as CD quality. The most blunting test available. According to DBT why is he selling anything other than an iPod ... major BS

    The same as measuring a high impedance circuit with 1K OhmPV multimeter
     
  3. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    Last edited: Apr 7, 2018
    Still, fixedwheel and crimsondonkey like this.
  4. Cereal Killer

    Cereal Killer fourhundredandthirtytwo

    'Fatal Audiophile Marketing Error'....
     
  5. JensenHealey

    JensenHealey pfm Member

    The problem lies in your fundamental premise. "Degradation of signal in a cable" In any competent cable there is no degradation. if there was it would be trivially simple to measure and allow one to characterise it. But most of us engineers do not believe in signal degradation over the sort of cables and distances and frequencies involved. Can you point to any report showing such 'degradation'? I have not seen any.
     
  6. Ragaman

    Ragaman pfm Member

    Plenty here regarding analogue signal transmission

    https://www.omega.co.uk/literature/transactions/volume2/analogsignal.html

    Important bit to answer your question....."However, when a data acquisition system is transmitting low level analog signals over wires, some signal degradation is unavoidable and will occur due to noise and electrical interference. Noise and signal degradation are two basic problems in analog signal transmission".
     
  7. sq225917

    sq225917 situation engineer

    Check out the speaker cable thread on diy audio for real world examples. The conclusion, bugger all difference. Worth a read
     
  8. Cereal Killer

    Cereal Killer fourhundredandthirtytwo

    Why would another forum have more cred on the topic?
     
  9. JensenHealey

    JensenHealey pfm Member

    Interconnects in Hifi are not 'low level' signal transmitters. MC cartridge connections might just fall into that category. Line levels and speaker cables certainly do not. Again your reference fails to provide any evidence - just s statement. Find some evidence - someone please!

    If degradation was something that could be i'mproved' with better design you would see plenty of supporting data from cable manufacturers. You don't. Have you ever wondered why? - it because they cannot show any such thing. I will not bother asking for it from them - but you might like to if you are curious.
     
  10. Ragaman

    Ragaman pfm Member

    I had a feeling you may say this :D
    You need to explain why the noise mentioned in the article at low level will have zero impact on an interconnect cable, rather than just dismissing, be much more interesting.

    Also, read the last line, it sums matters up nicely.

    Maybe you could contact the source of the article for confirmation, much more prudent than asking me, I can assure you.

    What is your line of engineering out of interest.
    I imagine reading & taking in what is written in a professionally laid out paper is not on the list of priorities :rolleyes:

    "Noise is defined as any unwanted electrical or magnetic phenomena that corrupt a message signal. Noise can be categorized into two broad categories based on the source-internal noise and external noise. While internal noise is generated by components associated with the signal itself, external noise results when natural or man-made electrical or magnetic phenomena influence the signal as it is being transmitted. Noise limits the ability to correctly identify the sent message and therefore limits information transfer. Some of the sources of internal and external noise include:

    Electromagnetic interference (EMI);
    Radio-frequency interference (RFI);
    Leakage paths at the input terminals;
    Turbulent signals from other instruments;
    Electrical charge pickup from power sources;
    Switching of high-current loads in nearby wiring;
    Self-heating due to resistance changes;
    Arcs;
    Lightning bolts;
    Electrical motors;
    High-frequency transients and pulses passing into the equipment;
    Improper wiring and installation;
    Signal conversion error; and
    Uncontrollable process disturbances"

    Clear enough?
     
  11. YNWOAN

    YNWOAN 100% Analogue

    Also from the article you link to:

    The article you refer to is in reference to, A/ absolutes, and B/ transmission over long distances. Transmission of a robust signal in a low noise environment over a distance of only a metre are outside of its scope.
     
  12. Ragaman

    Ragaman pfm Member

    I did link this :confused:
    Lot's of variables, most probably the reason for people having different experiences with different systems/cables
    Something I have said many times here, not all equipment is designed equal so will respond differently to cabling, Have you ever owned Naim olive gear?, link a Russ Andrews 2m 8pr to the output for confirmation.

    This should keep you busy :)
    http://electrical-engineering-porta...n-enter-a-signal-cable-and-its-control-part-1
     
  13. YNWOAN

    YNWOAN 100% Analogue

    What’s your point? Just because something can happen doesn’t mean that it is, or even, if it is, that the effects are audible. Linking to articles describing basic fundamentals doesn’t support your position, it’s up to you to draw out conclusions you believe support your beliefs.
     
  14. YNWOAN

    YNWOAN 100% Analogue

    OK, rather than merely Googling articles covering basic electronic theory, may I suggest to you that if you have an actual point to make you do so without resorting to patronising, or condescending to, your fellow contributors. If you don’t actually understand the issues sufficiently to argue them directly please don’t assume that links related to, but not specificic to, selected articles is sufficient to support your position because it, quite obviously, is not.
     
  15. Beobloke

    Beobloke pfm Member

    Keith, I read the link and I have to say I’m very disappointed.

    ‘Favoritism’ should have a U in it...
     
    Errol likes this.
  16. RogerJW

    RogerJW pfm Member

    Probably best to check sofa position first....

    But the prices for some of these cables are ridiculous," says Ethan Winer, author of the myth-dispelling book The Audio Expert. He believes that the most compelling reason people are easily fooled into thinking a new audio cable improves the sound is the frailty of human hearing. "As much as we'd like to believe otherwise," he says, "our hearing memory is surprisingly short term. This makes it very difficult to know if subtle differences are real or imagined. Another factor is that the frequency spectrum reaching your ears can change over very small distances in a room."

    In other words, the position you're sitting on your sofa could have a more profound effect on the sound than any speaker cable "or power cable!" adds Winer. "Some sell for $20,000. I imagine some salespeople believe this bullshit, but others know full well they are scamming people and yet they do it anyway."

    https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...it-worth-splashing-out-on-cables-8685983.html

    https://www.passlabs.com/press/speaker-cables-science-or-snake-oil

    https://www.prosoundweb.com/topics/...facts_behind_the_hype_about_loudspeaker_wire/
     
  17. zamakli13

    zamakli13 Member

    There are 21 components of errors and Degree of Comparison ( Component 12) is one of them. Where does good become better or better become the best depends on how and where it is used. Sounds simple ,but more often than not, you will find yourself caught up. After watching this video, you can easily identify errors pertaining to this type. Happy Learning!" Tutuapp 9apps Showbox u r the smartest of the all...nd nice lecture
     
  18. Antony

    Antony New Member

    I knew a guy who was well into audio, and a classic audiophile, running on blind faith. He had a basic lack of scientific knowledge, and was convinced he could hear things that couldn't possibly exist. I appreciated where he was coming from because as a youngster I'd been there, but being more naturally critical, grew out of it. Lucky for me...

    The poor chap was in his early twenties and was thousands of pounds in debt because of his habit, which was encouraged by unscrupulous dealers foisting cables costing hundreds of pounds on him. He had a power cable that cost £600!

    Audiophile charlatanism can have deeply negative effects.

    I can only applaud Keith's attempt to poke a little fun, and try and educate, the classic stereotypical audiophile.
     

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