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Folky, hippy crap

Discussion in 'music' started by RickyC6, May 12, 2011.

  1. Fox

    Fox The sound of one hoof clopping

    Hold on a sec, I agree with you on this:

    "But enjoyment of music is nowhere near enough - understanding something you hate seems a more valued position."

    So I cannot see what the problem is. I do not think it is "sad" to want to understand something even if its something you find onerous. Its noble actually.

    I don't know anything about using "objective criteria by which "good" music might be identified." nor is it something I have gotten involved with. "Good" for starters is historically and culturally defined so its a can of worms there and then. Which is why my points have nothing to do with it. Objective criteria to structurally determine how a composition bides by certain rules that form its own internal consistency OTOH, sure but that's a PhD thesis! Funds willing I have five more years spent doing precisely that.

    PS 1954 - noted.
  2. Cav

    Cav pfm Member

    Sorry, the full stop should have been a question mark - enjoyment is first for me.
  3. Fox

    Fox The sound of one hoof clopping

    In which case just voicing any opinion and not elaborating because you don't want to understand it is hardly going to contribute much to a conversation. Its an opinion, big deal, everyone has those, but I'll repeat: how we arrive at an opinion is what gives an opinion context and substance. Its ok to just like or dislike something, of course, but just saying it and expecting everyone else to not be curious is dragging every interaction we have with music down to its lowest common denominator.

    All your other stuff about "objectively determining what is good music" is not my argument and best directed at the people who brought it up.
  4. Cav

    Cav pfm Member

    Why should anyone need to elaborate as to why they like or don't like some music as opposed to other music? Why make something so simple difficult? What difference does it make whether I can understand the structure of a Mahler symphony if I don't like the sound of it?

    The main reason (imo of course) is that the "well" educated can pontificate and sound erudite and sneer at everyone not so clever - and at the end of the day they are just expressing a preference but trying to rationalise it using more words than are really necessary. The old Radio 3 forum was full of such bullshitters.
  5. Joe Hutch

    Joe Hutch Mate of the bloke

    Nobody 'needs' to do it, but some people enjoy doing it.
  6. Fox

    Fox The sound of one hoof clopping

    There is no need, and that was apparent in what I said, but that also means people like you shouldn't be giving the curious shit for wanting to try and understand how something works.

    Education is a useful prerequisite to articulating about a technical subject like the structure of music. You're happy with one aspect, big deal others are not -- and that does not make it bullshit.
  7. RickyC6

    RickyC6 Infuriate the frog-men

    If people don't elaborate about stuff then there's not much point having forums really is there? Or posting on them?
  8. Joe Hutch

    Joe Hutch Mate of the bloke

    The 'I don't understand this therefore it's crap' mindset is something one should outgrow as quickly as possible, because it's very limiting.
  9. PsB

    PsB Citizen of Nowhere™

    I think program music appears before that. See Beethoven, Liszt, etc.
  10. Fox

    Fox The sound of one hoof clopping

    It does, however there the term is retroactively applied. After the romantic period, it became part of deliberate current musical nomenclature. Like open form music (composing with aleatoric or polyvalent styles or the notion of indeterminacy) it existed beforehand with "incomplete music" and even dice music, but it was formally categorised in the mid 20th C.

    Thats how I understand it and meant to use it anyhoo.
  11. PsB

    PsB Citizen of Nowhere™

    What date would you say post-romantic music starts?
  12. Fox

    Fox The sound of one hoof clopping

    The "Cav" method would be to have a Modernist and a Romantic listen to music together and the point the romantic said "I don't like that" and the modernist said "I like that" Is when Romanticism ended and Modernism started.

    Personally? I think by 1910-ish romanticism was done, and modernism predated it by a good half decade -- easily but one fades out as another fades in... Movements are also defined post facto... I'd generally trot out Bartok, Stravinsky, Debussy, Alban Berg and their ilk and draw the date distinctions from there.
  13. Jonathan Ribee

    Jonathan Ribee Unavailable at present

    Did romantic ever stop? The British (Vaughn Williams for example) carried aspects of it on. And now we have the Neoromantic.

    It's all very complicated.
  14. PsB

    PsB Citizen of Nowhere™

    I would put it a bit earlier than that, but no matter.
    Anyway, programme music starts much earlier than that. Beethoven's Pastorale is an obvious example. After 1850 the genre proliferated, so it seems more a romantic (or late romantic) than a post-romantic phenomenon.
  15. Fox

    Fox The sound of one hoof clopping

    Well, I'd disagree insofar that it wasn't formally defined until much later and we can only look back on it as programmatic, if you want to knock heads about it let's go to the Renaissance. Likewise, the Pastoral was not defined at the time as programme music. I was referring specifically to the notion of it arriving and its use after it had been defined - all tangential to Mescalito's comments that I cannot agree with.

    Jonathan. Yes it all fades in and out and is a mess. Is there a defining 21st century "Classical" music yet? Some people say there is, I'm not sure. We are living in it so hard to tell.
  16. vuk

    vuk \o/ choose anarchy

    something i find interesting is that, in the world of pop, we seem to have no notion on the first decade of this century. at the end of the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and even 90s we had very clear impressions of what the trends were (OK, i wasn't around for the end of the 50s and 60s, but from what i've heard...). all i can think of now is that awful, bitchy blend of new-soul, boy-band, hip-hop and sugar with a lot of auto-tune thrown in. ke$ha, pink, drake, miley, etc. do we have a name for it? care to make one up?

    the zeros seems fitting.


    p.s. fox, i assume you are talking about 21st century classical/composed music.
  17. Jonathan Ribee

    Jonathan Ribee Unavailable at present

    It feels like we have melange music. Any style can appropriate aspects of any other style to create a fusion. There are no new flavours of ice cream, but you can have any three in your triple headed cone.

    Of course, someone on 1911 may have said the same.
  18. Fox

    Fox The sound of one hoof clopping

    Sorry, Vuk. I'd clarified the post before you saw me post. Yes, what is 21st C Classical and who gets to define it this century?

    I know people like John Adams are probably most likely candidates but, it all seems to be film music score writers that the media is pimping as 21st C "Classical". The Michael Nymans of the noughties. I'm not sure it's even applicable when it's written first and foremost to sell product. Mozart would no doubt disagree.
  19. Seeker_UK

    Seeker_UK Waiting for the streetcar..

    It's too soon to tell - we're only 11 years into the 21st Century for starters. John Adams' music would qualify as 20th Century in my book.
  20. jackbarron

    jackbarron Chelsea, London

    Yeah, I'd agree with that.

    I saw John Adams conduct a new piece in concert a couple of years ago.

    I wasn't blown away by it at all.


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