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Graduate Employment

Discussion in 'off topic' started by auric, Nov 6, 2012.

  1. auric

    auric pfm Member

    Some things never change

  2. Snufkin

    Snufkin pfm Member

    I heard this, a thought provoking program.
  3. Nic Robinson

    Nic Robinson Moderator

  4. sergeauckland

    sergeauckland pfm Member

    It's not always been like that. In the late 1960s and early 70s, one left school at 15, got a job, perhaps menial, but a job. Stayed on at school, got some A levels, got a better job, went to University got a better job still.

    Any school or University leaver that didn't get a job either didn't want one, or was unemployable. When I graduated, my friends and I all pretty much had a choice of jobs.

    That all changed with various recessions, and the relentless increase in the number of graduates, such that even meat flippers in Wimpy's were Sociology graduates.

    It seems to me that no-one has ever thought to relate the number of Graduates the state is turning out compared with the number of graduates actually needed. The last lunacy was turning all the Technical Colleges which did an excellent job in vocational studies and practical skills into Universities without the research base that make a University different from a college or school.

    We are now cheating young people into going to Universities to do meaningless courses (Media studies?) for no job afterwards. Yes,we need better trained youngsters to enter the labour force, but a better trained (and employed) plumber, hairdresser or electrician is far more useful to society than an unemployed Media Studies graduate.

  5. Darth Vader

    Darth Vader From the Dark Side

    Serge I can relate to that.

    I did leave Secondary school at 15 with 6 'O' Levels and went straight into a lab. A friend went went to Grammar school and took 10 'O' Levels at 16 and failed the lot! However he got a job on a building site and became the drummer in my band. One of my guitarists left school at 14 with no qualifications then worked on a farm. One (I had two) bass players was a bus conductor.

    There was work for those who wanted it and no benefits except the dole but people were ashamed to get that far. We thought we were on the edge of Utopia but then successive governments squandered those opportunities. I went to Tech Coll and did well enough to go to Uni with a grant! I look back and think that without that grant I could never have gone to Uni and my life would have been so different.

    Not worse mind as I have recently made contact with a guy I started work with on the same day when I left school at 15. His life has been good and was the stereotype that I had expected to live but Uni put me onto a totally different path and a way of life that I couldn't have dreamed about.

    Two of my friends daughters went to Uni and took Media and Hotel Management. Both have never had a real job since they graduated. One does
    pantomime when available and the other makes cupcakes for a living. Both are intelligent (their father was a barrister and a playwright) One of my nieces took Forensic Science - sounds good doesn't it but its also a none degree and she has only found menial jobs ( her dad installed and kept all the BBC video servers for the Olympics running and also has a techy Oscar award on his mantel piece).

    NuLab really did screw up education education education but that also doesn't vindicate the Tories either.

    Where did that vision of Utopia go?


  6. Minstrel SE

    Minstrel SE These go to eleven

    Nobody is mentioning the fact that we reached a job saturation point many years ago and there are far too many of us for the economy to cope with.

    For my whole working life the larger employers have shed thousands upon thousands of jobs. In fact Black Wednesday in 1987 cost me and thousands of others their job. There have been many recessions since then. The key point is that these jobs were never replaced due to technology and other factors.

    All the self employed trades are competing for the same work in a tough economy.
    I therefore dispute that we need the colleges churning out another 100 plumbers per town every year. Even to do a bit of taxi driving for example you need to stump up thousands for a car, very high insurance, not to mention running costs....like there arent enough taxi drivers. Its all risk borrowing and university fees now.

    We have also shipped a great deal of manufacturing overseas for the cheap labour

    It also gradually became the norm that a university degree was the minimum requirement for jobs that used to be offered to CSE O and A level school leavers. Apprenticeships dried up because employees were simply not needed.

    Many degrees are not fit for purpose because you have to turn a wishy washy course into a cold hard cash earning opportunity.

    Those within the hospitality sector arent leaving anytime soon and with more businesses closing than starting up in a recession, its easy to see why a degree in hotel management is next to useless.

    The joke of saying to a new graduate "big mac and fries please" became and indeed remains the truth.
  7. Eric L

    Eric L pfm Member

    Right, but maybe it's beneficial to have the young, otherwise-unemployed people out of the workforce and in school for the reason that the first sentence of your post is true.

    In other words, given that most developed nations have faced pretty persistent and increasing (although not continuous) post-war labor surpluses, having a large portion of that labor displaced for a few years while they attend more school may not be the worst option. Remember that an educated populace correlates positively with a lot of other benefits; productivity, GDP, lifespan, self-reported happiness, etc.

    Other options would seem to include having them unemployed and in the streets. And I would expect that to correlate negatively with the above benefits.
  8. Minstrel SE

    Minstrel SE These go to eleven

    Oh yes I agree that something productive must be done regarding funding and education. Its better than the unemployed lying in bed or wandering the streets.

    But at what point are the young being used and shuffled off out of the way for a few years. Now they have the priviledge of paying £9000 a year for it. If it is not paid back the taxpayer has to fund it.

    I could go further and say that the people actually benefiting, work within the university system. Its no wonder they are coming up with media studies type courses.

    Darker still, it took a world war to stimulate the economy after the last major depression. My father could walk out of one job on a Friday and have a new one on Monday simply because he mentioned an interest in photography. He just had to turn up looking half presentable to be hired. He eventually became an electrical engineer with no formal qualifications

    No generation since has had that luxury
  9. stevec67

    stevec67 pfm Member

    We are indeed suffering from an excess of labour, which has historically been resolved by sending them all off to war. It emptied the prisons too. However it's simplistic to assume that it's homogeneous across the country. I'm currently working on the south coast and we cannot get skilled staff at any level. Witness the fact that we have 3 interim managers in quality/technical, an interim in Personnel and an interim night hygiene manager. The hourlypaids come from E Europe, there are relatively few UK natives in the factory. Either they don't want it, or they don't turn up reliably, or are otherwise unemployable. As a result we have an agency on site that sources labour, usually European. It's not the same back home in Leeds, there we have considerable levels of unemployment.

    We have a vacancy for a food technologist, 2 in fact, and a QA technologist. Salary c. £20-25k depending on exp. More for one of the FT vacancies. Any takers? Based Poole, and it's a nice place to work with nice people. Usual address, I'll pass it on. There's also a vac for a FT in Spalding, which is a dump. Nice factory, but Splod is grim.
  10. Mullardman

    Mullardman Moderately extreme...

    We have done all this before.
    This thread is simply bringing out the same old crackpot ideas and the same old uninformed prejudices. I really can't be arsed with arguing it all again.
    For e.g. A general 'panning' of Media Studies as a discipline, when we have a media industry in this country which is a massive earner and highly successful.
    If you really want to spread your educational snobbery and continue to pull the ladder up, at least get your facts straight.



    I have spent 30 years working with young people, of all abilities, and in all settings, from special schools to 6th forms, to FE and to Graduates. The general patience, resilience and forbearance they show in the face of successive catastrophic Govt policy decisions is really quite humbling.
  11. Mullardman

    Mullardman Moderately extreme...

    Quite spectacularly prejudiced, distorted and uninformed bollox.

    Have you considered approaching Gove?

    My bet is he'd love you as an Education Tzar, to give 'creedence' to his sociopathic ideology.

  12. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator


    Personal attack / argument removed.
  13. Mullardman

    Mullardman Moderately extreme...

    We do not have a surplus of labour, we have a shortage of opportunity.
    You either accept this, or you need to argue for a living wage for the unemployed since clearly if we have a surplus of labour their unemployment cannot be their fault.

    That is not what you said. You condemned Media Studies out of hand. And I'd be more convinced if you told me on what basis you are the judge of what is fit for purpose?

    Your view conflicts with the information I have, but 'whatever', every sector needs to refresh its workforce with new talent.

    No.. just dismissing and abandoning them.

    That pile of tosh doesn't even deserve a response. What areyou trying to say?

  14. stevec67

    stevec67 pfm Member

    Come off it. Doctors can't get work? Where exactly? The highly skilled are in shortage. I should know, I've become self employed as a food manufacturing specialist, and I have more work than I know what to do with, earning more than I ever have before. The same applies in all sorts of functions - look at Mull's daughter designing clothing, well paid and in demand. Those who can't travel to where the work is or don't have sought-after skills are worse off, but this has nothing to do with whether they studied Media Studies.
  15. David F

    David F pfm Member

    £25K is a good living wage Steve but isn't Poole meant to be the most expennsive place in the UK for property?

    My guess is £25K would quickly disappear down there.....?

    I wish to God I had the training to look at it but I don't.
  16. stevec67

    stevec67 pfm Member

    Poole is a bit pricey. Rented places especially. Not ridiculously so though, its not London. Cheaper housing in B-mouth, wimborne, etc. Not everyone wants or needs to live in sandbanks.
  17. Mullardman

    Mullardman Moderately extreme...


    'Graduate level jobs decline

    Britain's graduates face an increasingly challenging jobs market, with 40% failing to get graduate level jobs more than two years after leaving education, around twice the proportion of their peers a decade earlier, according to a study by Warwick University's Institute for Employment Research, funded by £1.1m from the Higher Education Careers Services Unit, of 17,000 recent ex-students' career paths.

    The survey also found that overall, the vaunted graduate salary premium, a key argument in persuading would-be students to rack up significant debt to pay for a university education, has declined by as much as 2% a year compared with average national earnings over the past 10 years.

    The research has worrying implications for social mobility, finding that non-white graduates are significantly more likely to experience unemployment, while the chance of being in a non-graduate job rises for those whose parents do not have degrees.

    The findings reflect the recession of recent years and the continued increase in the numbers of graduates leaving British universities and colleges. But perhaps less predictable is the prevailing optimism, with two-thirds of those in the study hopeful about their long-term prospects and an overwhelming 96% saying they were glad to have taken a degree.

    What is clear is that 30 months into their post-degree lives – 18 months if they took a four-year course – many new graduates are finding life tough. "Significant" periods of unemployment were reported by 10%, with another 40% saying they remain in non-graduate posts. Direct comparison is tricky given the reclassification of certain jobs, but the researchers estimate the equivalent figure for the class of 1999 at the same stage in their career was about 22-23%.

    For those working, average annual salaries were 21.9% lower for those surveyed in November last year as against their 1999 peers asked in mid-2003. This drop is by no means even: graduates from less renowned universities suffered a 30% fall, against 17.5% for those seen as the best, with arts graduates experiencing a drop more than three times bigger than those who studied law.

    Many factors shown up by the study as counting against career prospects are relatively uncontroversial. For example, those with first-class degrees are about half as likely to experience unemployment as those with a 2:2, while medicine and dentistry graduates had notably better fortunes securing jobs using their degrees than those who studied arts or humanities.

    The researchers found socio-economic factors and family backgrounds also played a role, sometimes more than had been anticipated. Going to university with neither of your parents having a degree brings more of a likelihood of future unemployment. While at university, children of non-graduates are less likely to do extra-curricular activities or consult careers services, with knock-on effects.

    Equally glaring is that male graduates earn more than female graduates, about £2,000 a year on average, an effect the researchers called "continuing and disturbing" and little changed from 10 years earlier.

    Kate Purcell, a professor at the institute with a sociology background, who led the study with her colleague Professor Peter Elias, an economist and statistician, said the findings should be viewed within the context of ever more graduates and the evolving definition of what constitutes a graduate job. But employers must also play their part, she said, in not expecting graduates to fit seamlessly into jobs without further training.

    She said: "Employers have this big supply of graduates and are becoming so ridiculously selective that they are creating job specifications that build in a requirement for prior experience. Basically, a new graduate has very little chance of getting in because they want so much. Companies want the perfect person, pre-formed for the job. They have to recognise they can't have that."

    Source: www.guardian.co.uk/education 7.11.12'

  18. Bob McC

    Bob McC Living the life of Riley

    are you a column writer for the Mail?
  19. sergeauckland

    sergeauckland pfm Member

    No, why?

  20. russel

    russel ./_dazed_and_confused

    The reason there were high levels of employment when you were a lad was because globalization had not kicked in. You were not competing with millions of well educated people who were prepared to do the same job for a quarter of the money you were.

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