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Labour at it again ..... anti-semitic just won't go away !

Discussion in 'off topic' started by HydeLea, Jul 31, 2018.

  1. Seeker_UK

    Seeker_UK Waiting for the streetcar..

    IME, anyone who starts a sentence with "I'm not a [whatever] but..." is almost certainly the thing they claim not to be. :p
     
    radine likes this.
  2. radine

    radine hermit

    I take your points but to be fair these were a kind of shorthand as I have been very explicit in my earlier posts dissecting Serwotka's comments. To be clear if one repeats anti-semitic tropes, one is guilty of racism.

    As discussed in my conversation with Droodzilla, time will tell if the IHRA definitions are a good or bad thing. That said I take issue with your extrapolation. Of course the Israeli government is Jewish but there is no restriction on criticising the government or its policies, actions etc.



    There's no such thing as a thought crime. It's only a problem if one says racist things.
     
  3. droodzilla

    droodzilla pfm Member

    Haha, yeah. A bit like "Some of my best friends are xxxxx but...".
     
  4. radine

    radine hermit

    :D Yes. One of my best friends is a Rangers fan but...

    I'll leave it to the reader to insert the appropriate bile laden expletives.
     
  5. gassor

    gassor There may be more posts after this.

    There are some Rangers fans who are great people, but there are many who aren't.
     
    HarryB likes this.
  6. radine

    radine hermit

    Of course you're right Donald. My chum, who has been my closest friend since we were toddlers, is a really good person in every way. I can't take him to task for an error of judgement made when he was 6 :)
     
    gassor likes this.
  7. DonQuixote99

    DonQuixote99 pfm Member

    Won't you at least add 'with bad intent' to that definition? Criminal laws always include such provision to avoid punishing innocent acts. One of the faults of the IHRA definition is the absence of that element.

    I think in practice there is such restriction. If in someone's opinion you have 'repeated an anti-semetic trope,' you can be branded a anti-semite, a racist, and therefore suffer severe social or sometimes material sanctions.

    Just don't let that quibble blind you to the actual point. Ideas that aren't expressed don't count, yes, but it is the idea, not the expression, that makes expression a 'crime.' If you are seeking to punish the expression of wrong ideas, you are the thought police, no way around it.
     
    HarryB likes this.
  8. Paul R

    Paul R pfm Member

    I think you are in deep quibble, almost at the 'I'm not a quibbler' point.

    The IRHA definition is nothing to do with criminality. It's completely legal for you to promote anti-Semitic tropes, both here and in the US. The Labour Party in the UK now has, and is supported by, many open anti-semites, who in their denial of their anti-Semitism invoke anti-Semitic tropes. No laws have been broken.

    It would be a good thing, IMO, if anti-semites suffered social sanction, but it seems to be a badge of honour for some, and there is no sanction here.

    You will have to decide if you are for them or against them. The tenor of this place is for them. I think it is now beyond hope, given the owner's tolerance of it.
     
  9. radine

    radine hermit

    It is long winded. I had a quick read right through and at first blush there is nothing that I would disagree with. It's a thoughtful analysis.

    I also agree we need more discussion on these lines but people like Serwotka need to stop fuelling the fire. The reaction to comments like his is all too predictable and not without merit imo.
     
  10. Mullardman

    Mullardman Pompous..? Moi?

    I really can't be bothered to read the previous posts, but that statement is simply wrong. Judaism is a religion, not a race. Also, I have pointed out previously that racism exists
    within Judaism.
     
    HarryB likes this.
  11. Mullardman

    Mullardman Pompous..? Moi?

    Bullshit.
     
    Still and HarryB like this.
  12. radine

    radine hermit

    Really? At the very least it's a matter for debate and not as black and white as you state.

    https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn19008-how-religion-made-jews-genetically-distinct/

    https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/dna-links-prove-jews-are-a-race-says-genetics-expert-1.5220113

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonent...-who-disagree-nazi-sympathizers/#77628cd28bc6

    Edit: Also Corbyn himself says he is committed to fighting anti-semitism and other forms of racism. Therefore he is saying it is a form of racism.
     
  13. radine

    radine hermit

    I see you edited your post so I will just add that I agree that racism exists within Judaism.
     
    Mullardman likes this.
  14. Mullardman

    Mullardman Pompous..? Moi?

    You can argue niceties if you like, but there is no doubt that there are black/negroid jews in Africa. Some have migrated to Israel where it seems they have suffered racial prejudice, negating your argument.

    That said. In a very much more pragmatic sense it doesn't matter. Prejudice against any social group, whether it be defined by religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation or whatever, is clearly abhorrent to all right thinking people. Elements within the Labour Party, are vehemently opposed to Israeli political policy towards, and treatment of, Palestine and Palestinians. It should be obvious to anyone with an IQ above about 10, that this is a political stance, not an anti Semitic stance, if for no other reason that whilst Israel is portrayed as a 'Jewish Homeland', it is in fact only about 70% Jewish by population.

    This whole 'Labour Anti-Semitism' thing is so clearly a 'put up job' as to render further discussion pointless.
     
    HarryB likes this.
  15. Mullardman

    Mullardman Pompous..? Moi?

    Only a minor edit, to add 'is a religion'.. to 'not a race'. Eitherway I've posted a bit more since and our posts have crossed. I really cannot accept that Labour or Corbyn are 'institutionally Anti Semitic', or that Israel is beyond criticism, or that criticising the Israeli state/Govt. is AS.

    I hope we can agree on that?
     
  16. radine

    radine hermit

    I thought you also added the bit about racism existing within Judaism but its not important.

    FWIW I don't believe the Labour party is institutionally anti-semitic or that the problem is endemic or institutionalised. I have been arguing that the AS problem exists on the fringes of the party and that the leadership has not dealt effectively with the problem.

    I agree Israel is not beyond criticism and that criticising the policies of the Israeli govt is perfectly fine. I'm a critic too.

    As I have said here before, I would vote for the LP under McDonnell but not while Corbyn is leader.
     
  17. vuk

    vuk \o/ choose anarchy

    with all the problems facing the UK and world, to bother getting worked up about your fringe *assumption* doesn't make any sense to me.
     
    HarryB likes this.
  18. DonQuixote99

    DonQuixote99 pfm Member

    If anti-Semitism isn't racism, it's just as bad as racism. No real point in distinguishing.

    I think I should make it clear that though I'm willing to argue over who should be judged an anti-Semite, I'm utterly against anti-Semitism where it does exist. Appalled by. Sickened by.
     
  19. clamnell

    clamnell pfm Member

    Antisemitism is a form of racism. It is correct of Corbyn to talk about antisemitism as a form of racism.

    Judaism is an ethno-religious group.
    The existence of the reform judaism movement, or of converts, doesn't change that.
    Isn't this laid down in UK law?
    Judaism is determined an ethnoreligious group under the 1994 discrimination stuff that I believe placed Jews as an ethnic group under the Race Relations Act. This followed all the Mandla-Dowell Lee stuff regarding Sikhs.
    Sikhs, Jews, Amish etc.

    I don't understand why you're pointing out that racism existing within Judaism.
     
  20. clamnell

    clamnell pfm Member

    To add to that, I certainly consider myself to be part Jewish - even though I don't practise Judaism - because I have a Jewish parent. I think probably I was brought up to think that 'if you're jewish enough to be murdered by Hitler because of your ancestry, then you're jewish' - I imagine it is/was important for many assimilated Jews to make out that Judaism is a social group (to which they don't belong) but I don't think that changes anything. When I hear people going on about Jews, I hear them going on about a racial group, not about where they go to pray and who they drink with.
     
    Hook and bob atherton like this.

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