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Labour at it again... anti-Semitism... #II

Discussion in 'off topic' started by Stunsworth, Jul 7, 2019.

  1. Still

    Still he said his naim was ralph

    Fair enough.

    I disagree. pfm is a community and we are active members of it. iiuc we agree bigotry is unacceptable and we should do something about it.

    You previously asserted dealing with such ignorance is hard, but you haven't used a most basic tool provided by pfm management to help deal with this.
    It's not like report automatically = ban, so your reticence in taking such an elementary step in the right direction is a puzzle.

    edit: Seanm fwiw really appreciate you courageously putting your head above the parapet.
    We all have blind spots & me more than average. fwiw I don't think you are at all bigoted let alone AS. I'm moderately dyslexic so apologies for my excessive directness

    On the contrary I'm trying to stimulate the debate.
    Possibly you ignored the context of my reply - nothing to do with virtue signalling.

    I disagree.

    On this thread that is whataboutery. I repeat: this is self defeating.

    I haven't seen any such claims from a credible source. If possible please cite one.

    correct

    Possibly you've not got your priorities straight re : Labour tolerating bigotry.

    It can, but I haven't asked any such loaded question.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
  2. lordsummit

    lordsummit Moderator

    Let’s make a start with the exceedingly eggy output of some very senior members, then let’s see what gets reported re social media content.

    I’ve shut down threads, removed members posting rights, deleted many posts in the interests of fairness and unpleasantness. If the mod team perceive their to be a persistent racist tone to someone’s posts, they certainly will leave the building.

    There are some Labour members who post on this thread who are I think in denial regarding this issue, and I tend to roll my eyes when I see yet another media plot or ludicrous conspiracy theory as to why it’s happening. It’s rather obvious it’s happening because the will isn’t there to deal effectively with it.
     
    doctorf, bob atherton and Still like this.
  3. Brian

    Brian Eating fat, staying slim

    Whatever you say.

    I don’t have the detail of the problem that I know to be factual. No doubt you do.
     
  4. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    I've reported posts I've thought were clearly bigoted. My point is that this particular kind of thing is difficult to call and I'd rather just address it than report it. I mean, you're pretty clear on all this, and on what should be done: do you think that overestimating Israeli influence is an expression of bigotry? Would you report it?
    I'm really not having a go, I think the place is well-moderated. But the kind of decisive action you're calling on Labour to take might well involve expelling people for single posts on the issue I've raised about Israeli influence. Certainly, the persistent denial you point to is already enough to invite disciplinary action in the Labour Party. You are yourself in a position to do something about the denialism you accuse members of here. Are you taking the actions against them that you're demanding Labour take? If not why not?

    Edit: Jez's post would get him suspended from the Labour Party, no doubt. Not sure that would be the right way to go. Are you?
     
  5. Still

    Still he said his naim was ralph

    Fair enough. Sorry for my foolish assumption.

    If imo a post is a significant enough breach of pfm aup to require moderation I report it.
    Ignoring bigotry helps no one, and that's what Tony L and mods ask of us.


    Illumination of your 'can't be arsed lights' duly noted.
     
  6. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    In the week of the Panorama programme Andrew Neil gave Boris a proper kicking over the recent diplomatic scandal. Frustrating thing is that even though he exposed him as an untrustworthy liar he is still set to be the next PM.
     
  7. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    Andrew Neil has special dispensation to tackle senior Tories, not least because he's part of the same far right publications/dodgy think tanks/Russian money set. As a reminder of what happens when someone without power and influence challenges Johnson on the BBC, see Aman Thakar's case: the BBC apologises profusely for the impertinence and joins in the monstering of the reprobate.

    But the really pertinent comparison with the Panorama program was this week's Dispatches on Islamophobia in the Conservative Party. Missed it? Easy done. You probably didn't see it discussed on Newsnight, breakfast TV and all the rest either: that's because it wasn't a story. And that's because it involved 1) Islamophobia and 2) the Conservative Party.
     
    Brian likes this.
  8. Arkless Electronics

    Arkless Electronics Trade: Amp design and repairs.

    Well I must say I am shocked that my previous post has been deleted and would be very interested to see an explanation of why.. yes really, that wasn't rhetorical. After being banned from part 1 of this thread I was very careful in my choice of words in the removed post!

    It seems to me that TPTB both in the Labour party, the press and yes here on pfm have kind of unilaterally decided that accusations of AS against Labour are proven and no counter argument shall be permitted?
     
  9. Still

    Still he said his naim was ralph

    Have you read the AUP, Jez?

    whataboutery akimbo continues

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0003msy

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48912065

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48688268

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48601134

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48434202

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47454993

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47633067
     
  10. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    About the only one who was 'shocked'
     
  11. Arkless Electronics

    Arkless Electronics Trade: Amp design and repairs.

  12. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    Sorry to break this to you but I don't spend every waking hour watching documentaries on politics. I didn't watch the Panaroma programme either so at least I'm consistent. Brian Walden was also an excellent interviewer despite being fairly right wing, the two are not mutually exclusive. Your observation about relevant power is very valid though.
     
    Still likes this.
  13. Still

    Still he said his naim was ralph

    How long ago did you read the aup?
    imo your moderated post appeared *a bit* anti-Semitic, which is baned re: posting hateful sentiment.
     
  14. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    Jez the post contained at least one antisemitic trope (Israelis controlling the world, basically), in the context of which a lot of the rest of it could be seen in the same way. I didn't report it, but I did use it as an indication of how difficult policing this issue is, and simply expelling members who unknowingly repeat common tropes is not necessarily the right way to go.
     
  15. Arkless Electronics

    Arkless Electronics Trade: Amp design and repairs.

    I am well aware of the adoption of IHRA etc and I was careful to keep within justified criticism of Israeli policy etc which is I believe (theoretically!) allowed. Surely even you could not deny the main gist of my (rather obvious I thought) argument that it is very much in the interest of Israel and its supporters to shut down criticism and to do anything possible to prevent a Corbyn gov getting in?
     
  16. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    The first link wasn't about the Dispatches programme so I assume the others aren't either. The fact that the BBC has on occasion covered Tory ISlamophobia isn't evidence of lack of bias, as you must know, having started a thread on bias. The whataboutery thing is just absurd: much of the discussion here concerns whether or not the attention Labour's getting is proportionate to the extent of the problem within the party, and one way of establishing that is to draw comparisons with a directly comparable situation. It might be whataboutery if I were denying that there is a problem, but I'm not.

    Anyway, can't help thinking I should just have not got involved with this, as I'd intended. I'll leave it now. You work away.
     
  17. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    I have a genuine question. Is it OK to reference Jack’s link to the Al Jazeera piece highlighting links between the Israeli embassy and groups inside political parties and more specifically to highlight the people in the Panorama programme who have unattributed links and paid positions with the Israeli embassy?
     
  18. Brian

    Brian Eating fat, staying slim

    Whatever you say.
     
  19. gavreid

    gavreid pfm Member

    As I alluded to months ago, it's 'surprising' how an attack on the left at Oxford University a few years ago has now become all consuming. I think we need to re-orientate. There is a straightforward call for Boycott, Disinvestment and Sanctions originating from the Palestinians (not Labour Party members) against Israel. Which side are you on?
     
  20. Still

    Still he said his naim was ralph

    Given the topic (Labour's AS problem) your post had strong hints of Jewish conspiracy theories, which is an anti-Semitic trope as old as the hills.

    What are such assumptions the mother of?

    istm indicative your your bias in believing the BBC hasn't covered Islamphobia in Con PPP in depth.

    It was whataboutery to make those claims on this thread due to the topic.
    There is an off topic thread about Islamophobia in Con Party, but it's strangely quiet.

    fwiw I disagree and welcome your courage in doing so.
    If you are half the Labour activist you appear to be how could you not be involved?
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019

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