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Lib Dems - Tories in Disguise

Discussion in 'off topic' started by Snufkin, Sep 16, 2019.

  1. Snufkin

    Snufkin pfm Member

    I can't get the Flying Burritos song Devil in Disguise (Christine's Tune) out of my head but I keep hearing it as Tories in Disguise. Anyone else get the feeling that the Lib Dems are rapidly sliding to the Dark Side?
     
    maxflinn likes this.
  2. Konteebos

    Konteebos Ignorant Uninformed Hard Remainer

    I think it's a deliberate policy, apparently they are likely to win far more seats off the Tories than Labour - so it makes sense for them to aim for disaffected Conservative voters by getting nastier.
     
    Martian Sunrise and narabdela like this.
  3. divedeepdog

    divedeepdog pfm Member

    I heard they were canvasing on a remain/cancel Article 50 strategy. Saw stealthy referendum. Not looked beyond the headlines though, and many will remember the university fees.
     
  4. Konteebos

    Konteebos Ignorant Uninformed Hard Remainer

    To back up my earlier comment, from a recent article in the New Statesman:

    "The current poll of polls (which, it is worth stating, is at peak Boris bounce and has the Lib Dems on a realistic 19 per cent) suggests there has been a 12.5 per cent swing away from the Conservatives towards the Lib Dems since 2017, and a 13 per cent swing to the Lib Dems from Labour.

    If this holds, the Liberal Democrats would be looking at 23 gains in England and Wales. Eighteen of these would be Conservative held (of which Brecon and Radnorshire was the 13th most vulnerable). Five would be gained from Labour.

    Then it gets more interesting. The next 20 seats that are most vulnerable to a Lib Dem challenge are all Conservative-held. "

    So they stand to gain more by swinging to the right...
     
  5. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    My feeling, very much subject to reading a new manifesto, is they are pretty much where they have always been. It is the other two parties have moved hugely; the Tories are now UKIP or worse and Labour are back where they were in the unelectable wilderness of the 1980s but with added English nationalism in some areas.

    I’d put the LDs as a whole just a wafer-thin mint to the left of Blair’s Labour, i.e. very similar economically, but without the authoritarianism, the war-mongering etc.
     
    JonR, MJS, andrewd and 2 others like this.
  6. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    The Labour MPs they've taken on are all pro-war. Some of the Tory MPs are very illiberal. By treating parliament as a game of musical chairs rather than a house of representatives, and with their incoherent referendum stance, they're throwing away their democratic credentials. They're much further to the right than they were under Kennedy, not much further right economically than they were under Clegg, but less liberal socially, and a good deal more incoherent. The only thing that's giving them any shape right now is their extreme position on Brexit.

    In a couple of election cycles I can see them being the main centre-right party, the kind of party Cameron wanted to lead, on a steady 20-25% of the vote. But it's clear that in order to get there they're prepared to shepherd the Tories into government again to do Brexit, so a lot will depend on whether their voters, who see themselves as defined by remain, can overlook that.
     
    Sue Pertwee-Tyr likes this.
  7. The Far North

    The Far North pfm Member

    Some in the party might disagree with you Tony. https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/l...by-her-own-party-members-over-tory-defectors/
     
  8. Snufkin

    Snufkin pfm Member

    Jo Swinson's voting record is pretty shabby so what do her fellow members expect. I am beginning to think that her election to the top of the Lib Dems may end up being very damaging for the party.
     
  9. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

  10. richgilb

    richgilb Admonishtrator

    Seem the same to me. It won't matter anyway, the elephant in the room is now the cancel brexit policy, which will lose them too many votes. If they had maintained the 2nd ref stance they'd have got all the remainers that don't mind them. Now they won't. It's not a case of them moving left or right, the problem is they are going more authoritative by doing this. One step in the direction of fascism. This is at odds with their philosophy. Why can't we have a second referendum? Why does Lib Dem need to take control of this in the way they now propose?

    Occasionally, they say stupid things, eg Vince's mansion tax. But they were all small issues. This is one dumb move.
     
    tuga likes this.
  11. Thorn

    Thorn pfm Member

    The headline could read "Unprincipled opportunists join the party of and for unprincipled opportunists."
     
  12. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    Yes, Swinson’s is a voting record any right wing Tory would be proud of. New members like the pro austerity, anti poor Sam Gyimah and the homophobic Phillip Lee can only indicate a willingness of the LD leadership to take the party to the right.

    As TFN has pointed out above, many at conference were vocal in their disapproval.

    I can see many traditional LD supporters being put off as Swinson tries to woe Tory votes by getting more Tory, and at the same time fracturing any hope of an anti Boris coalescence. Boris will be happy.
     
    Snufkin likes this.
  13. droodzilla

    droodzilla pfm Member

    Clegg and the Orange Book liberals all but killed the LDs as a social-democratic party. Swinson seems hell-bent on hammering the final nails into the coffin.

    I doubt there will be a formal coalition, but I would put money on the LDs entering into an alliance with the Conservatives, rather than Labour, in the event of a hung parliament.

    Charles Kennedy must be spinning in his grave.
     
    Sue Pertwee-Tyr and ks.234 like this.
  14. h.g.

    h.g. pfm Member

    They are a centre party and as such should weight the interests of the rich and poor reasonably equally. The traditional conservatives tended to give more weight to the interests of the rich and the traditional labour party more weight to the interests of the poor and so a bit of friction should be expected from traditional labour or conservative supporters.

    My problem with them is not that they give weight to the interests of rich but that they currently lack a policy to tackle the largest and most pressing problem of our time which is the escalating divide into a 1% and 99% with the 99% for the last 10 years getting poorer and less secure. This is not stable and the UK must make structural changes to how the economy and politics works if we are to avoid a breakdown. Concentrating on brexit and a few other policy twiddles that might play well in the coming election is not in itself a negative but they are not putting forward any solid reasons to support them. Perhaps it is bubbling away in the background and will come out at the conference but I am not holding my breath.

    Why isn't there a party in the UK that normal adults can support? What has broken down is not a secret. What was changed to allow things to break down is not a secret. The type of changes that need to be introduced (or reintroduced in many cases) is not a secret. The balance and the rate is up for debate but it is not even been talked about in the open. Madness.
     
    Snufkin likes this.
  15. richgilb

    richgilb Admonishtrator

    Considering:

    1. a lot of people voted against the establishment by voting leave
    2. the establishment then went on to show how bad it really is via its handling of brexit

    it is disappointing that none of them are pushing for serious political reform. Apart from brexit, it is business as usual for all of them.
     
    Snufkin likes this.
  16. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    Labour are pushing economic reform that's both radical and realistic, but sadly have steered clear of the constitutional stuff so far. I think pressure's mounting on them to address long-standing problems here.
     
    Snufkin likes this.
  17. jackbarron

    jackbarron Chelsea, London

    This is precisely what will get them quite a lot of Tory and Labour Remainers. It wouldn't surprise me if they got as many seats as Labour in a general election.

    Judging by newspaper reports and polls last week, Johnson and the Tories are on the up. Unfortunately the reality is there are a lot of racists and English nationalists in various constituencies, including Labour ones.

    I am not optimistic about Labour kicking the Tories out, unfortunately.

    Jack
     
  18. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    I have to admit this concerns me hugely and may have me spoiling my ballot come voting day. If there is no assurance that they will not enter any kind of deal with either Conservative or Labour they will not be getting my vote. I want to do nothing that would enable Johnson’s vile UKIP/Trump/EDL popularism nor the failed backward-looking gammon-tinged 1970s policies of McCluskey, Milne, Corbyn etc. I have a feeling I have no political home at present. If the LDs pledge to do nothing beyond acting as an entirely independent centrist block as they are right now I’ll vote for them, if not, no. Without seeing ut in the manifesto I can’t trust them not to prop up one of these two fails.
     
  19. Chefren

    Chefren pfm Member

    Vote Green then?
     
  20. richgilb

    richgilb Admonishtrator

    Well it is the constitutional stuff that brexit has exposed. But not a whisper from any of them...
     

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