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Lib Dems - Tories in Disguise

Discussion in 'off topic' started by Snufkin, Sep 16, 2019.

  1. gavreid

    gavreid pfm Member

  2. Joe Hutch

    Joe Hutch Mate of the bloke

    What makes Polly Toynbee a reliable guide to anything at all, other than her own, usually mistaken, opinions?
    MikeMA and h.g. like this.
  3. gavreid

    gavreid pfm Member

    She joined the gang of 4 in Limehouse, so she was one of the first Lib dems
  4. ff1d1l

    ff1d1l pfm Member

    But prioritising the prejudices of the executive and running after the conservative/brexit company ltd without alienating the membership isn't flying, is it?
  5. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    Quite possibly. My only point being that the much touted benefits of an all out Remain position for Labour are more assumed than proven
  6. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    I don’t know what you mean by the ‘prejudices of the executive’, but Labour clearly is not going after the Tory vote.
  7. ff1d1l

    ff1d1l pfm Member

    "I wish I'd said that"
    "You will, Wilde, you will".

    ...seems to sum up the labour wailing and gnashing of teeth on this thread.

    Trouble is, when, and, will anyone believe them.
    MikeMA likes this.
  8. ff1d1l

    ff1d1l pfm Member

    By prejudices of the executive I mean they are Bennite leavers. And that their views do not reflect the membership.

    And they are not only going after the tory leave vote, but brexit & co ltd. Note I only say going after...they haven't a hope in hell of making inroads there.
    And retaining the x's of the misguided labour souls in leave constituencies? Good luck with that.

    Anyway, let's see what happens at conference.
  9. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    Sorry, but that’s not true. Yes, Corbyn has been eurosceptic but McDonnell has said he will campaign for Remain and Many others, notably Starmer, have been vocally Remain.

    Getting a deal that will no doubt be along the long-standing lines of membership of the CU and SM is contrary to Tory and Brexit positions and a referendum with a Remain option is the polar opposite of Tory and Brexit positions.
  10. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    Indeed. The worst being McCluskey, living comfortably on his £140k+ salary in an upmarket union-financed London house, putting his own divisive Bennite ideology far above his often struggling union members’ future jobs and security. Everything wrong with Corbyn’s Labour neatly encapsulated in one parasitic 1970s ideologue. He’s not the only one either. I’ll certainly never vote for a Labour party still riddled with such dinosaurs.
  11. ff1d1l

    ff1d1l pfm Member

    Okay, I should have qualified that as " a decisive proportion of the executive".
    But it comes to the same.

    And that is leaving.
    Not some compromise - you can't be 'a bit pregnant'.
  12. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    More of the Labour exec seems to be solid Remain

    No, it’s a referendum with Remain as an option.
  13. ff1d1l

    ff1d1l pfm Member

    I said decisive...who decides? And what is he? Who's advice does he take most notice of? McClusky and Milne. Not the membership, thats for sure.

    And you know I was referring to the deal labour claim to be able to negotiate.
    Don't have a problem with the - promised - ref.

    You've got to admit, for the remain vote, the L D position cuts to the chase, though.
    Which is why it will be so succesful, and why it has scythed the legs out from under labour.
    Of coulse the LDs have held this position or something like it since the ref, so are showing consistency. And can look you in the eye on the doorstep and say they have no part in enabling this catastrophic tory manifesto pledge.
    Be great if labour could say the same. I wish they could, I really do.
  14. jackbarron

    jackbarron Chelsea, London

    What Toynbee has to say is interesting. It is a somewhat different from current Labour plans.

    "For Labour to emerge next week as the party with the best Brexit policy, it must push for a referendum immediately: head-counters in parliament suggest there could now be enough MPs to back a people’s vote after the Tory evictions, with Oliver Letwin and others in support. No need for the usual five months: if general elections are fought in 25 working days, so could a referendum if parliament voted it. The choice on the ballot would be between remain or whatever deal was agreed by then, probably still May’s. With Brexit resolved before an election, parties would lay out more realistic manifestos for the future."

    I could go with that. However if MPs don't agree to a Referendum, Toynbee argues Labour's two-step Brexit deal approach is best.

    "The policy will be to try to renegotiate a better, closer relationship with the EU and to put those terms on the ballot paper. Crucially the Labour leadership would back remain."

    I completely disagree with this. The most direct way I could further Remain is by voting for the Lib Dems in a general election. I also don't believe Toynbee when she asserts "Crucially the Labour leadership would back Remain." This is exactly what Corbyn has refused to do. He is a Brexiteer and is doing everything he can to make sure Leave win.

    Toynbee goes on to say McCluskey and union bosses could torpedo all of this at the Conference in Brighton next week.

    Corbyn and McCluskey are millstones around Labour's neck.

    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
  15. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    Lads, stop frothing about the unions, you sound like the Daily Male.

    There is zero chance of Labour copying the LDs' stance on A50. First of all because it's undemocratic, secondly because it's utterly counterproductive and speaks only to people who love the idea of remain more than actually remaining, and thirdly because it's all over the bloody shop. Here's the deputy leader:


    So, first preference is now a referendum. But if that doesn't happen, the fall back position is a Lib Dem government that will revoke A50. But if that doesn't happen, the fall back position is a referendum. But if leave win...well, cross that bridge when we come to it eh.

    Being charitable, you could say that they're learning something about their own base. For years they've been assuming, I think, that it's pretty homogenous: wealthy and right wing enough for austerity not to be a dealbreaker, fair bit to lose from Brexit, worried/angry at the fact that the world doesn't seem to be run by people like them any more. So they go balls out for the thing that seems to get this crowd going, only to find that they also have a significant number of supporters who do actually care about LGBT rights, cuts, and the actual practicalities of stopping Brexit, not just stupid stunts.

    They're basically having to do what Labour has always had to do, which is try to bring different constituencies together. They're not very good at it, are they?
    maxflinn likes this.
  16. h.g.

    h.g. pfm Member

    Unlikely. The controlling faction is well dug in and after a few years of attrition there doesn't seem to be much life left in the centre left, there is low levels of support for what remains of labour's centre left from the general population and there seems to be no clear competent leaders around which to build. The labour party has almost certainly now gone for traditional labour supporters and the current level of polled support around 25% almost certainly contains a high proportion of people that want to vote for a more trustworthy competent moderate party but are not being given the option.
  17. gavreid

    gavreid pfm Member

    Oh please. There's nothing centre-left about the Blairites, there's nothing much centre for that matter! I take my bearings from Healey, Kaufman, Hattersley to define centre-left - this is more the ground that Corbyn's Labour occupies today.

    Here's an interesting T-shirt for a Jewish, Labour MP of the centre-left, just to emphasise my point


    Futhermore, you'd be hard pressed to find a more trustworthy poltician than Corbyn across the HoC
  18. Brian

    Brian Eating fat, staying slim

    Like winning a General Election that includes the promise of a referendum on EU membership and then making a promise to implement the outcome?
  19. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

  20. gavreid

    gavreid pfm Member

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