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MDAC First Listen (part 00111011)

Discussion in 'audio' started by fred sonnen, Mar 11, 2019.

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  1. killie99

    killie99 pfm Member

    I made the first payment on 6th September 2013 with the promise of product in the early new year (2014). I have so far paid out £450.
     
    HarryB likes this.
  2. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    Just to follow-up my moderation post earlier my thinking at this point is to close this thread and start a new one entitled ‘John Westlake (DAC designer) investor thread’ and to open it ask those who have invested in the project state the money they invested, when they invested it, and what they expected to receive for that money.

    My thinking is we should get a very public list up fully detailing the accounts and timeline that is not concealed behind a non-specific title. I am also conscious that Audiolab (IAG), who no doubt own the M-DAC brandname, are entirely innocent parties in this and their name will be inevitably tarnished by association to some degree thanks to all these endless threads.

    What I don’t want to host is a public kicking festival. The new thread will be limited to stakeholders as I want it to pack a real legal punch. If any lawyers are reading I’d be very interested in their advice here. My aim is to attempt to best represent the considerable investment made by pfm members in this project and ensure they have a platform from which to be heard in a hope money or product be recovered to their satisfaction. I am simply not prepared to allow John Westlake to scuttle off under a hidden self-moderated rock on Facebook. He owes people here very considerable amounts of money and that is where this conversation will continue until it is resolved as far as I am concerned.

    Comments from stakeholders please. As I say I don’t have any interest in what spectators think, I just want to know how those who actually have money invested would like me to react.
     
  3. Spike

    Spike pfm Member

    I’m good with that Tony.
    I paid £300 on the 4th August 2014 and then £370 for a salvaged MDAC on the 5th August for the record.
    I believed that this would be an upgraded and improved MDAC called an MDAC2 with all singing and all dancing components. However, over the years it was constantly changed and I had no idea what it was to be.
     
    HarryB likes this.
  4. Stunsworth

    Stunsworth pfm Member

    That’s fine with me Tony. I’m in for £550 in total.

    That breaks down as £300 for the FDAC/MDAC, £100 for an AD converter (AKA Level 3), £100 for a MM/MC phono input and £50 for the Detox.
     
    HarryB likes this.
  5. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    Thanks folks, keep the investment posts coming here and I will move them into a fresh thread later. This way makes sense as I really want the first couple of pages on the proposed new thread to be nothing aside from an opening post from me detailing its purpose and a list of investments/expectations.

    PS Please as well as listing the amount you paid detail exactly what you thought you were buying. I must admit I’ve never had any personal interest in this project at all so I don’t understand which of the various proposed products are which and what they are alleged to do. All I know is whatever it is it has gone on for years now and to my knowledge many pfm folk are out of pocket. If someone fancies writing a recap detailing what the various things/options were/are, even the various degrees of ‘mission-creep’ that appear to have occured it would really help me a lot.
     
    Rosewind likes this.
  6. JohnW

    JohnW pfm member

    I'm sorry for the understandable and fractures post on your forum. I would very much like to keep everyone informed of the project progress, and that the development is continuing (and indeed WRT MDAC 1.5 nearing the production stage). I do feel obliged to keep everyone informed, however its has sadly become counter productive to post updates here on PFM, as anything I post is sadly instantly turned into a negative. I have many followers who have turned to the FB group as they cannot stand the constant negative postings here on PFM.


    Obviously since the initial development sponsorship I have taken burden of the development cost upon myself pumping virtually all the funds I have into this project and keen to see the end of it more then anyone – I have not turned by back away from it.


    I’ve just returned from a trip to Asia to meet with vendors for pending production of MDAC1.5 and Detox - again financed by myself so I’m doing everything humanely possible to make it happen – but it makes its hard to keep a positive outlook when I’m being constantly knocked down by the posts here, I will not give up, but it does make it hard sometimes…


    I do wish to keep everyone who sponsored the development of these designed informed, and would rather via PFM… but how much abuse can one take and still have the mental way with all to keep pushing forward with such a complex designs?


    I started the FB group to keep the “signal to noise” at a reasonable level – and do hope that once the MDAC1.5 and Detox unit’s ship I can return here with support related questions etc. If some method could be found to reduce the negativity until I manufacture first boards then I’d be more then happy to be fully active here once again.


    I’ve returned from Asia on Friday and have a stinking Flu / Cold, once I have a clear head again I have the PCB waiting to be built that will morph into MDAC1.5 – so first MDAC1.5’s could be seen around the New Year… in fact within a couple of weeks we will have first test results of the MDAC1.5…


    As mentioned in an earlier post, during the trip I was able to secure a vendor who would produce the small number of Detox units – I’ll be collecting these before Christmas…


    Not sure what more I can add apart from the fact that I’ve 100% invested in completing these projects ASAP – a fact born out that I’ve just returned from a trip to Asia to met with component vendors etc. I would not be making such an effort if I had no plans to see production in the near term.
     
  7. fred sonnen

    fred sonnen pfm Member

    Between 2013 and 2016 I have paid GBP 550.
    500.- for FDAC
    50.- for Detox
    1x PMD100 chip ;-)

    For the records:
    If once available I am interested to buy the one box integrated solution. A couple of years ago, I moved my interests from MDAC2 to FDAC because of the integration of DAC, HQ-PSU, CD-Drv, Valve stage, Detox integration, ect.

    I understand the reasons for the delays. Some of this is also due to the ever-increasing wish list from us/ customers.
    It remains to be seen whether the long development phase will lead to THE device. In the past not every DAC John created was a hit, as the Creek DAC shows (But I don't know the background).
    What is and was really bad is the lack of communication regarding progress. I do not have much sympathy for that also. I'm well aware of the verbal interference. But this cannot be avoided in the anonymous internet. But also here the long development time may be a reason for that.
    I can also understand that the small quantities make production and its costs difficult. But also here the long development time may be a reason. Keyword: Detox There was a marked for that.

    But I am still convinced that we will get a great DAC from John.
    A more and continued transparency communication in such a Crowdfunding projects would certainly have helped.
     
  8. russel

    russel ./_dazed_and_confused

    I think it was 400UKP last time I checked. The problem with this project has been mission creep, instead of the upgrade we invested in there have been god knows how many changes including completely new designs with different options, John should have delivered the simple upgrade he promised, which now looks like being the MDAC 1.5, and then developed new products based on that. It was very frustrating watching features I didn’t ask for being added to the project just adding delays and cost.
     
  9. GWM

    GWM Lost in the 70's

    I'm in for £950 total.
     
  10. Manimal

    Manimal pfm Member

    I'm in for £400 for MDAC2 and am no longer interested in any product that may evolve. I have lost all trust and would just like to recover my money and move away.

    The amount of timescales that have come and gone is beyond anything that could be considered reasonable.

    I was in for a DIY fit board with new front and rear panel.

    I don't want to move onto Facebook for updates. We've had too many updates with no tangible progress for their to be any point in doing so. JW took my and others cash via this forum and should not scuttle off when it gets hostile.

    Thank you Tony for your support. Much appreciated.

    Nick
     
  11. StephenB

    StephenB pfm Member

    Here's some more for you Tony...

    I'm in for Fdac level 3 with phono, 2x detox and a pair of vfets, forgive me if I don't have the exact dates to hand but that equates to £3000 [600+50+50+2300] [numbers corrected thought I had paid 2200 ]

    I was #7 in the FDAC list last time I looked so been on this road as long as anyone

    BTW John, I am way past being hateful as you say, and yes foolish, but only for believing your words and promises, interesting to see how you continue to treat a tier 1 customer who has also offered to progress this project in the past

    it should have been obvious that I was trying to add some humour to this travesty of an project as nothing else makes for pleasant reading in this thread
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
    kennyh likes this.
  12. Wardi23

    Wardi23 Member

    Long time since I either visited or posted here, but I’ve been along for this ride since the start too:

    MDAC2 originally then morphed into FDAC - 600 GBP, level 3 with phono and AV bypass
    DETOX - 50 GBP

    It is very sad it has come to this after so very long.
     
  13. Hawtin

    Hawtin pfm Member

    Payments so far (dates from 9/2014 to 4/2016) :
    MDAC2 / FDAC: 500 GBP
    Detox: 50GBP
    Salvaged MDAC: 370GBP
    total 920 GBP
    Regarding the last item, it was discussed long time ago that payment for salvaged MDAC could be transferred as credit to other items. This was probably around the time when FDAC was conceived.

    I'm in for MDAC2 level 3 which I still wish for if it ever was constructed. Not happy about the wait or the lack of communication.
     
  14. hluga

    hluga pfm Member

    Hi tony

    Here is the summary of my payments:
    FDAC: 600 GBP
    USB Detox: 50 GBP
    MDAC2 Streamer: 185 GBP
    DEVDAC: 300 GBP
    Power Amps: 2300 GBP
    I'm in for M/FDAC and Dtox and VFET and DEVDAC.
    I am on facebook and i believe that it will end with more than the expected products
     
  15. Space is the Place

    Space is the Place pfm Member

    Well it's a bit sad that its come to this really, I always expected John to deliver the MDAC boards...eventually, and still think he's a good bloke, who'd help anyone if he could, just useless at organising anything!
    Right at the start there was a guy who was up for managing the MDAC2 project and it's deadlines etc, obviously that didn't happened.
    But those who were trusting and are in for the VFET amps etc, i feel very sorry for them, if i'd have spent that much i feel it would have had a negative impact on my life and health if i'm honest.

    I've just checked and i've made three payments of £100, i think i stopped paying as i completely lost interest in what was going on. I did purchase a salvaged MDAC too, which i've been using as a headphone amp and has worked fine, but i only bought it for the MDAC2 board, as it sounds a bit mechanical.
    Would have been nice to have had an upgraded mainboard or whatever but can't see it happening (this year, maybe Spring? Munich show? ;))

    Anyway.

    DEV DAC/MDAC2 board, whatever, £300.00 (first payment 15 Sep 2013)
    Salvaged MDAC £370.00 (11 Dec 2013)
     
  16. wintoid

    wintoid pfm Member

    I think because I was an MDAC Toy purchaser, I'm only in for £150, comprising £100 for MDAC2 and £50 for the Detox.
     
  17. Rosewind

    Rosewind Lost in Translation

    I'm in for:

    VFET monos: 3070£
    Detox: 50£

    I originally entered the frenzy for an MDAC2, but my investment in the DAC was added to my VFET payments in agreement with John.
    --------------------------------------------------------
    February 2014 + June 2014 + March 2015:
    - 4 MDAC development installments: 400£
    - Salvaged MDAC: 370£
    = 770£ ---> Somewhere along the way John allowed me to convert these funds towards the final payment of VFETs
    --------------------------------------------------------
    August, September and October 2014:
    VFET paid up to 2300£ (three installments of 800£ + 1200£ + 300£)
    --------------------------------------------------------
    September 2015:
    Detox: 50£
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
  18. clivem2

    clivem2 pfm Member

    I'm in for £50 for Detox. Small beer compared to many. This was to be a quick project to help JohnW generate funds to help with his DAC project. Life has moved on, I've no idea whether I'd sink more money to buy a Detox now.
     
  19. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    Thanks very much for the updates so far. I must admit I’m way beyond shocked by how much some folk have paid here. I thought this was a 300 quid DAC board or something, maybe another £100 on top for a nice metal case. I had absolutely no idea some folk were out £3k or so. I still don’t understand what the various additional projects are, but one of the investors is getting me up to speed on that. Being honest I also have absolutely no idea at all what to do, assuming of course anything can be done at this stage, but just calmly getting the information so we can all see it in one place is likely a good start.

    I plan to run this thread for a while longer, maybe for the rest of the week, and then collate the information. My intention is that pfm provides all sides of this situation an open, fair and entirely truthful platform, i.e. I want to be absolutely sure John feels he can respond and update us too. The best possible outcome is obviously that product is delivered, and that should be the priority in this thread and its moderation approach (i.e. I want to limit contributions to project stakeholders and John, and I hope other pfm members will respect that).
     
    Sloop John B likes this.
  20. russel

    russel ./_dazed_and_confused

    There a lot of projects and a lot of options and even the MDAC 1.5, which should be the simplest of the DACs has been re spun a couple of times, the designs need to be frozen and the number of options reduced to get products out in a reasonable time scale. I think we were quoted 40 days for finishing the MDAC pcb a year ago last June.
     
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