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NHS turmoil is just the start of Tory ideology run wild

Discussion in 'off topic' started by internet radio, Feb 22, 2011.

  1. demersal

    demersal Banned

  2. Jo Sharp

    Jo Sharp Pulls on doors marked push

    Because the NHS decided on a different treatment strategy perhaps?

    Or decided to spend their money elsewhere within health care?

    But even taking into account the different NHS cost inflation referred to by Simeon, it was still a 22% increase over the period.

    A good analysis was conducted by York University Centre for Health Economics:


    But the inconvenient truth for labour's spin merchants is that Thatcher did not cut health spending.
  3. Greg

    Greg 2t5b

    I'm not taking a party political stance on this. It's a simple fact that "mental hospitals" were closed and vulnerable, mentally ill people were transitioned to the community. If overall NHS budgets increased, this doesn't alter that fact. This also "coincided" with your beloved Thatch
  4. demersal

    demersal Banned

    ;)Not listening. La la la
  5. Greg

    Greg 2t5b

  6. Jo Sharp

    Jo Sharp Pulls on doors marked push

    Indeed; and I would not attempt to judge those events, nor defend them, and I recall the problems that arose as a result of changing the policy on mental health care.

    My comment was purely to correct the ill-informed 'Thatcher cut the NHS' drivel which is regularly spouted on here.
  7. Tim Jones

    Tim Jones pfm Member

    There's a bit more to it than that. The philosophical shift began with Enoch Powell's 'water towers' speech in (?) 1961 and was relatively consistent through governments of both flavours after that. The fact that vulnerable people were transitioned to the community has to be balanced against the fact that thousands of them were previously locked up (literally) for decades in immense asylums. This was part of a massive shift in the philosophy of caring for the mentally ill that moved from a semi-criminal, penal set of ideas to a 'reintegration' one.

    What went wrong in the late eighties and early nineties was that this was implemented en masse without the right resources being put in place in the community - something that Powell himself felt strongly about. That said, 'reintegration' brings with it frankly inevitable problems, not least the fuzzy nature of clinical decisions about whether patient x is ready for it. You get similar fuzziness when psychiatrists have to make decisions about whether mental inpatients are fit to take section 117 leave, with occasionally tragic results.

    People seem to see Thatcher as a kind of proxy for everything they loathe about politics. The real history is often a lot more subtle than that.
  8. Paul R

    Paul R pfm Member

    It was mooted late in her period and implemented well after she'd gone.

  9. LesW

    LesW Retired at user request

  10. joel

    joel Painter of Dragons, Maker of Mirrors

    Holloway Sanatorium was shut in around 1981, which would appear to coincide with la Thatch.
    I guess even Maggie couldn't flog the mental asylums to her old chums
  11. Greg

    Greg 2t5b

    Paul, mental health patients were being turfed out well before she had gone.
  12. Joe Hutch

    Joe Hutch Mate of the bloke

    The closure of mental hospitals was the result of an unholy alliance between mental health 'liberationists' and cost-cutters, with loads of unforseen consequences. I'm not sure it was ever really feasible to successfully care for and supervise tens of thousands on mentally ill people 'in the community' without some falling through the cracks, whichever party was in power.
  13. Paul R

    Paul R pfm Member

    Not as a consequence of 'Care in the Community'.

  14. Darmok

    Darmok "A Priori Teleology."

    The Mayfair Set...


    It will make you furious what the market is doing
    24 September 2008 | by haasxaar (United Kingdom) – See all my reviews

    At the end of this film I was of bemusement at the unreported and almost unseen approach that capital and capital markets have taken since 1945 to gradually take control of the political systems of the USA and the United Kingdom. Curtis outlines several key points and analyses at great length various events and personalities.

    These so called market movers were all members of the Clermont Club in Mayfair, London. What at first seemed to be an audacious and unrealistic strategy to take control of the market economy turned into something almost unstoppable, destructive, cruel and completely bereft of feeling or scruple.

    What is so shocking is that the corruption and immorality did not start as commonly assumed in the 1980's with the ascent of Reagan and Thatcher to power but with the beginning of the global economy in the late 1950s. There is much material shown here that should be much more discussed and explained because it depicts aptly how moribund and fragile the economies of the developed world have become. How they are built up on tenuous and shallow assumptions that market cycles are no longer applicable. The greed and deception of the business elite reaches far further and far wider than beyond anyone's common knowledge or understanding of politics.

    Watch this. Be informed. Be scared.

  15. Tim Jones

    Tim Jones pfm Member

    I like Adam Curtis. He went a bit awry with that series on how there was no such thing as Al Qaeda a few weeks before 7/7, but hey.

    What this has to do the NHS reform is a bit unclear though.
  16. Brian

    Brian Eating fat, staying slim


    So let's get this straight. In one post it's 50.4% then when you're cornered by a few other members with some facts it suddenly becomes 22% not long after. :rolleyes: The inconvenient truth is you tried to get away with a fabrication but were caught out there. :) Embarrassing.

    It was a pledge of Blair when he won the election that Labour would strive to bring the UK expenditure on health up to the levels of some other European countries such as France. This paints the picture for those without their head up their arse regarding what was happening to the NHS under the previous tory govt. You can spin it however you like but it won't wash. Tories don't want an NHS because they don't need it.

    Whatever Thatcher did or didn't do in relation to the NHS has little bearing on the CURRENT tories who are hell bent on privatising this fantastic service that we should all be proud of. The tories will once again aim to line the pockets of the well off at the expense of the rest and will follow the US model, putting at risk the health of many people in the process. This government will be a disaster for the majority of the population over their so-called "modernisation" (privatisation) of the NHS but I've no doubt you're somehow insulated from it. It's sickening really. I don't even think you're misguided, you just don't give a damn.

    Irrelevant. Greg is spot on. Best if you just admit it.
  17. demersal

    demersal Banned

    Ah subtle. That'll be why it goes over pedantic heads stuck in their narrowed dogmas, time after time. Lol
  18. Jo Sharp

    Jo Sharp Pulls on doors marked push

    Brian, unfortunately the embarrassment is on you for either failing to read what I wrote; or the York University paper; or maybe you did not understand it?

    But I'll spell it out for you:

    The 50.4% increase is the amount of increase in spending adjusted for normal RPI style inflation.

    The 22% figure is the result of using a different inflation adjustmentfactor, unique to the NHS, which is because costs of wages, materials and equipment in the NHS tend to rise at a higher rate than food, fuel, clothing etc in normal domestic consumption.

    Both figures are correct, and are clearly stated in the York University paper which I can only assume you did not bother to read.

    So perhaps you might be polite enough now to withdraw your accusation that I was caught out making a fabrication?
  19. Brian

    Brian Eating fat, staying slim

    The embarrassment is yours and is because you decided to highlight in your post just the one figure, naturally the higher figure that you believed would show the tories in a good light. Had nobody picked you up on it you would never have mentioned the lower figure. A truly honest post would have showed both figures.

    I don't expect anything impartial from you and I'm sorry for that but if you don't like the 'f' word, how about the "spin" word? There's not much difference as everyone knows.

  20. demersal

    demersal Banned

    Well said.

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