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Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+10)?

Discussion in 'off topic' started by ff1d1l, Nov 26, 2018.

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  1. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

  2. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    Would some one let Barnier know? I think he should be involved...
    Hammond is saying Treeza’s is the only game in town and he has a point- she is leader of the UK’s legitimate government- she’s who the EU is negotiating with, not any other political parties/ backbenchers or commentators.
     
  3. droodzilla

    droodzilla pfm Member

    As far as the EU is concerned it's been on the table since day one:

    [​IMG]

    Still find the above infographic damned confusing though!
     
    stephen bennett likes this.
  4. SteveS1

    SteveS1 I heard that, pardon?

    Does it matter? Norway in any shape would include FOM, as such it's a gammon no-go area and as everyone is so worried about what they think despite being a minority of the Leave vote (if other Leavers are to be believed).

    Besides if they were to accept that, it might soon dawn on some of them that it's worse than Remain if your worry was immigration, Leave campaigners wouldn't like that to happen.
     
    TheDecameron likes this.
  5. Vinniemac

    Vinniemac pfm Member

    It appears so.
    “Michel Barnier, EU Chief Negotiator on Brexit: “The only frictionless option would be Norway Plus” (English)
    “The only frictionless option for the future with the UK would be ‘Norway Plus,’ Norway being part of the single market, plus a custom union, for each of the other models we have the obligation to create and implement control for the goods, for the standards for the norms and all the rule of origins.” From https://euranetplus-inside.eu/michel-barnier-norway-plus-is-the-only-frictionless-solution/

    I can’t remember if the other members of the EFTA have to agree first.
     
  6. Jim Audiomisc

    Jim Audiomisc pfm Member

    In part that may be a tactical relcutantance to try and convince some voters that they are deluded by the fantasy that all ills are down to the EU and immigrants. Partly, a respect for democractic votes, now matter how barmy their basis. But also in part because the EU does, indeed, have its own serious flaws that can prevent social and economic progress. Hence it isn't a perfect item to 'sell' even for those, like myself, who prefer being 'in'.

    Hence the argument would need to be along the lines of "We are better off remaining in *and* fighting/arguing to reform it to be more fit for purpose." However saying this *now* might make the EU less keen on generously allowing us to remain if we need to deal with a minor issue like, "can be freeze A50 whilst we have a referendum, please?"

    So the mess the Tories have wrough is a bit of a maze to escape. "With one bound they were free" isn't really the course I'd expect to work at this point, in or out!

    The problem is that people want simple obvious plain 'solutions'. When reality may require something more like working slowly though a minefield and getting someone else to then open the gate at the other side.
     
  7. Vinniemac

    Vinniemac pfm Member

    I think it was a response to May’s Lancaster House speech red lines. So we can’t have Norway because May ruled out ECJ jurisdiction, free movement, etc.
     
  8. Jim Audiomisc

    Jim Audiomisc pfm Member

    Alas, I think that is a certainty. Partly because when 'leave' fails to deliver the jubilee, people will start casting round for someone to carry the can. And those who engineered this train wreck will run the media, etc, to point fingers at others. Partly because many of us will keep pointing out that we warned them. Indeed, I can imagine some who wanted to remain will start wondering if those who voted leave should be singled out in some way to 'pay' for the costs rather than all of us who aren't in power being dumped on when it wasn't our idea.

    If nothing else, tee-shirts with "Don't blame me. I voted 'remain!'" might sell well in a few years time. :)
     
    sean99 likes this.
  9. Ragaman

    Ragaman pfm Member

    I would edge towards the former.

    According to many on politics today on the beeb, the reason for extending article 50 will be to end Brexit, it's how they saw it.
     
  10. Ragaman

    Ragaman pfm Member

    Many here are forgetting this.
     
    HarryB likes this.
  11. Ragaman

    Ragaman pfm Member

    Then instead of campaigning in the last election for the removal of immigrants & promising Brexit for the people, she should have been honest, not likely.
     
  12. gavreid

    gavreid pfm Member

    I'm beginning to think that next week's vote will be pulled. The Cabinet agreed apparently that they can't afford to lose the vote by 200!
     
  13. Ragaman

    Ragaman pfm Member

    I could say the same regarding the last 3 elections in this country, anyone who voted Tory, empty your bank balance & feed the poor as I didn't vote for any of this shit, neither did most of the opposing section of society.
     
  14. Dave***t

    Dave***t pfm Member

    I’ve heard that too. Surely if they pull or move the vote after giving it such a high profile, long debate in the lead up, simply because they know they’d lose it, there should be an immediate vote of no confidence.
     
  15. gavreid

    gavreid pfm Member

    They think they'd win that I suppose
     
  16. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    So after the red lines were in place. Is the infographic a chart of all the options that might have been on the table had the red lines not put them out of the frame, or options that had actually already been offered?

    Was the "+" in Norway+ ever specified by the EU side?
     
  17. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    Its like the madness of not closing the door on a brush salesman as soon as you’ve opened it and seen what’s about to happen. Half an hour after you knew you didn’t need what was on offer, youre into what size of brush you’re going to buy. You’re so punch drunk you’ve forgotten you don’t need a brush and you’re never going to get the door shut till you’ve bought a brush. Treeza’s brush. Buy now, no returns.
     
    andrewd likes this.
  18. Vinniemac

    Vinniemac pfm Member

    I presume it was simply a list of what arrangements currently exist with the EU for certain third parties - Norway model, Swiss model, etc - and the reasons why May’s lines implicitly ruled out each of those. In that interview with Barnier I posted, he mentions Norway Plus (single market plus customs union) so I presume it was on offer, even if only implicitly. But May had her red lines, so it was never pursued by the UK.
     
  19. gassor

    gassor There may be more posts after this.

    On balance the poorest people will suffer more from being out of the EU than being in it. There will be fewer businesses to provide jobs, many imported goods will become dearer and some areas will lose vital regional grants. As for respecting democratic votes I would say that Labour should have been shouting about the effects of leaving the EU before the referendum.
     
  20. ff1d1l

    ff1d1l pfm Member

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