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Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+13)?

Discussion in 'off topic' started by Bob McC, Jan 1, 2019.

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  1. Bob McC

    Bob McC Living the life of Riley

  2. thebiglebowski

    thebiglebowski pfm Member

    I can't think of anything more destructive than voting for Brexit in the first place, stupid is not realising an idea was wrong and blindly pushing ahead anyway.
    TheDecameron, jackbarron and kendo like this.
  3. notaclue

    notaclue pfm Member

    You'll want to skip to 14:50 to get to the start of this new talk by Timothy Snyder. He explains the myth of the modern European nation state. And why Brexit = collapse.

    Weekender likes this.
  4. droodzilla

    droodzilla pfm Member

    A bit of froth to lighten the mood:

    The state of these people.
  5. jackbarron

    jackbarron Chelsea, London

    In terms of the Tories and Labour it is Brexit vs Brexit. I hope both parties split in half and Article 50 is revoked. The Tories and Labour are very damaging at a dangerous point in the UK's history. One party is led by a religious racist, the other by an early '80s Bennite. Get rid of the dinosaurs.

  6. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    What’s not so funny is- they’re deadly serious. If they don’t get their full Brexit, there will be civil disorder. Come to think of it, we haven’t had Mr. OFF WITH THEIR HEADS posting here for a while, maybe he’s shifted existential phase as predicted for a large proportion of the Brexit demographic.
  7. matthewr

    matthewr spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld

    Surely not by the people who object to being called stupid for voting for Brexit though? For that would be rank hypocrisy.

    FWIW I think taking the votes of people like me (centrist, reluctant remain, etc.) for granted is exactly the same problem as previous Labour leaderships taking Labour heartland votes for granted for years.

    (To be clear, I don't think people should be called stupid for either vote. And I don't think anyone's vote should be taken for granted and instead any decent political party should be able to build a consensus when faced with a neoliberal government that not only wears it's c**tishness on its sleeve but is laugh-out-loud incompetent).
    Still, PsB, Nick_G and 2 others like this.
  8. jackbarron

    jackbarron Chelsea, London

    Here is a guide on how to be a good immigrant to fool Brexiteers and the official Labour Party. The main things are be white, not a Muslim, don't speak a foreign language and get drunk as often as possible.


  9. markvdv

    markvdv pfm Member

    Looks like Jaguar I-Pace was the best sold car in december in the Netherlands, fortunately it is being made in Austria so probably little Brexit troubles there :) Jaguar that great Austrian brand.
  10. timola

    timola pfm Member

  11. jackbarron

    jackbarron Chelsea, London

    It is one of the only decent things Khan has done since he became mayor.

  12. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    It's always difficult to build a consensus amongst constituencies marked by very different material interests and experiences, and Brexit represents a maximally difficult case of this fundamental difficulty. A common enemy ( c____ish government) isn't enough: there has to be a positive vision, and as I've been arguing, there just isn't the space to develop one. I think we're coming up against the limits of the whole system and it will take either an extraordinary event (no idea what) or an extraordinary political invention (maybe a citizens' assembly) to break through it.

    I don't think your being taken for granted is really anything like the taking for granted of working class voters under New Labour, by the way. Centrists are not under-represented in parliament or the media, and they have plenty of civil society institutions that support their interests. Society has essentially been built around their interests for a long time. There's really no comparison, beyond the taking for granted bit, and even that doesn't really ring true: Labour are nothing like as complacent about middle class votes as Mandelson and co ("They have nowhere else to go") were about working class votes.
  13. Stunsworth

    Stunsworth pfm Member

    60% of Londoners voted remain.
  14. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    The Muslamic Lefty. LOCK HIM UP!!!!!!

  15. timola

    timola pfm Member

    Fertile ground for the Archbishops' message then.

    London is the capital of the UK not a satellite of Brussels, I guess the 60% have forgotten that.
  16. timola

    timola pfm Member

    He allowed a balloon to mock the USA...that was decent too.
  17. matthewr

    matthewr spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld

    This is such a terrible argument that basically comes down to "Not fair!". If they can't solve it now when they don't need to actually do anything, can be maximally vague and can ignore most of the details how on earth do they expect to manage when they are in charge? And why would anyone take them seriously if they cannot convince even people on their side that they know what to do?

    It is exactly the same real politik calculus of "They have nowhere else to go" and is literally taking my vote for granted. New Labour's crime was not doing very much to help reduce regional and class inequality once they got elected.

    Also although I joke about being a centrist, I am not really. I am a left wing traditional Labour voter. Thinking Corbyn is doing an obviously bad job doesn't make me a closet Blairite or Tory. Failing to acknowledge how terrible he has been is an electoral liability though and does rather beg the question what is everyone going to do if he loses?
    Sue Pertwee-Tyr and Weekender like this.
  18. droodzilla

    droodzilla pfm Member

    I think you might be right.
  19. PsB

    PsB Citizen of Nowhere™

    No, a protest vote does not necessarily have "betterment of the country" as its motive. It's just, erm, a protest, and stuff the consequences. Some people just want to stick it to the System, others can feel that voting to make the country worse off will hasten a later crisis, which can then be exploited, etc. Some of the dispossessed/disenfranchised you mention probably had these sorts of ideas in mind when they voted.
    Sue Pertwee-Tyr likes this.
  20. PsB

    PsB Citizen of Nowhere™

    You're attempting to rewrite history.
    • A Labour Brexit was not on offer at the time.
    • Brexit did not force a GE. Cameron resigned for his own reasons and was promptly replaced by May - no GE involved, as I'm sure you noticed. The GE was called by May much later, as she estimated that Labour under Corbyn was such a shambles that she could consolidate her majority ahead of Brexit negotiations. She ran a dreadful campaign, to a point that made even Labour look organized, but Labour still don't have a majority.
    • No vote on Corbyn is scheduled at this stage. Sorry.
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