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Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+17)?

Discussion in 'off topic' started by eisenach, Mar 10, 2019.

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  1. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    If it's luck that May has no majority, luck that Labour haven't set off any of the booby traps that would have helped her get the deal over the line, luck that the PLP has, a few opportunists aside, become more rather than less disciplined on this as time has gone on, luck that Starmer is completely on top of things and completely behind the leadership's strategy, then yes, we're the luckiest people alive.

    Obviously I'm a partisan, but I have also tried to explain the logic of the strategy from the beginning, only to be told that all this talk of doing things at the right time was some kind of crazy 5D voodoo. Now People's Vote are explicitly saying that they buy that logic 100% and that the time is nigh, and if you can't have faith in the PEople's Vote on the question of the people's vote then we need to work on your trust issues. We can help!
  2. stephen bennett

    stephen bennett Mr Enigma

    Can we also leave 'hard' leavers or remainers, 're-moaners' and 'Brex$hiters' behind too?

    And personal insults towards politicians on all sides?

  3. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    The problem, and the thing you have failed to grasp since the very beginning of this IMHO, is that the whole thing relies on winning hearts and minds. Labour should since the very beginning have been *framing the argument* against the fraudulent right-wing Brexit project rather than only thinking of their own seats, their own party, their own personal careers. There was a very clear moral position to take on this and they have entirely failed to rise to it and have almost certainly damaged themselves irreparably along with any prospect of our ever reversing the catastrophic damage from what was only ever a failed Tory election stunt. Thankfully the other progressives were not so inward looking, so we all still have something to vote for come an election now Labour have failed us.
  4. stephen bennett

    stephen bennett Mr Enigma


    I think you'll find that parts of Russia and Turkey are in Europe, None of the other countries you mention are. But that's not the point.

    Why not talk about the positives of having these countries inside the EU?

    You also ignored the point of my post—that there is plenty to criticise the EU about and we do discuss it here.

  5. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    ...but Starmer, he can only work under close supervision* .

    *which he’s ignored by the sounds of things.
  6. gassor

    gassor There may be more posts after this.

    Ah, that's a good title for the present existential crises of Labour. Just have to work out who's Vladimir and who's Estragon?
  7. h.g.

    h.g. pfm Member

    Those behind the people's vote are split on strategy. TIG went one way and labour went the other. The labour leadership want brexit and the labour membership want to remain in the EU. Had the labour leadership whipped to support or oppose we would know if labour is actually going to support a people's vote or oppose it. Abstaining means we still don't know but if the hard left behaves in the way it always has in the past then there's not much chance of effective support. My expectation is the leadership will continue to delay/abstain until they are confident the time has past and then support it.
  8. Marchbanks

    Marchbanks Golly, do I ever have a lot of soul!

    The part that galls me is that when she eventually bribes, blackmails and bullies sufficient MPs to squeeze her deal through with a majority of two she will immediately declare that everyone - country and Commons - is now united behind Brexit generally and her plan specifically. There will be some cobblers about ‘we have put our divisions behind us’ which really means ‘from now on I will pretend no-one voted to remain.’
  9. richgilb

    richgilb Admonishtrator

    Oh right, sorry, my bad. He was only talking about Western Russia joining the EU then? :rolleyes:
  10. richgilb

    richgilb Admonishtrator

    I believe it is white people that get really angry and red-faced about dark skinned people coming over here, taking all our jobs, killing all our people etc
  11. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    Rich, don’t make me use the shock collar on you.
    farfromthesun likes this.
  12. Konteebos

    Konteebos Ignorant Uninformed Hard Remainer

    If "Gammon" is unacceptable, I propose we use AUMARFs - Angry Uneducated Middle-Aged and Red-Faced.
  13. Gaycha

    Gaycha Well-Known Member

    Why not just refrain from adopting labeling insults? Could add more power to anyones' points and arguments.
  14. eternumviti

    eternumviti pfm Member

    It takes more than a leap of faith to reconcile utopianism with pragmatism, another brace of polar opposites.

    It is probably more correct to say that civil liberties, human rights and so on come under the ECHR, which is an adjunct of The Council of Europe, founded some 8 years before the Treaty of Rome was signed, and of which the UK was a founder and signatory. So not the EU.

    Hard right/fascist? Yesterday the Chairman of VW-Audi, the largest carmaker of the lot, and the perpertrator of the emissions rigging scandal that itself was the grubby figurehead of the takeover of the EU by the neoliberal-globalist-corporatist machine, who merrily invoked, and without any apparent hint of self-awareness (VW employed slave labour during the war), the 'Arbeit Macht Frei' slogan that adorned the gateways of such esteemed establishments as Bergen-Belsen, Sachsenhausen and Auschwitz-Berkenau. Today I give you Antonio Tajani, President of the European Parliament, who apparently reckons that Mussolini wasn't such a bad egg because 'he built roads, bridges and sports facilites'.

    Your disquiet about the UK as having what you believe to be a flawed electoral system and over its unwritten constitution are matters for grown up, intelligent and informed debate within our own (by broader consent) democratic and hitherto widely admired parliamentary system, and without it too. Your much articulated insistence that our body politic is being taken over by some neo-fascist conspiracy is pretty absurd, and anyway, fascist extremism - by which I mean intolerance and bigotry of any colour or flag - is something that is ever more clearly not confined to the right. I would place the repeated branding of anyone who happens to believe that the United Kingdom should control its own money, borders and laws, and that its citizens should have the right to hire and sanction those who make such laws, as 'gammon' well within such a category.
  15. gavreid

    gavreid pfm Member

    Then you get called a snowflake - I'm afraid we've been all around that house a few times. Some people here even think it's ok to bully those of us who are ill.
  16. Bob McC

    Bob McC Living the life of Riley

    I just found out that Marc Francois' military career was entirely spent as a weekend soldier in the TA.
    ff1d1l likes this.
  17. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    Is the People's Vote split? How split?

    I think there is a great deal of paranoia about the Labour leadership's "real intentions" with regard to Brexit, stemming from decades of red-baiting and the refusal of the press to develop contacts with the left, investigate their politics, explain how parliamentary democracy actually works or even use basic logic (or arithmetic!) The only mainstream journalist worth reading on anything that Labour are involved in right now is Stephen Bush.

    If I thought this was all about the hidden intentions of the leadership, I'd be looking to the fact that they sacked those who defied the whip in order to vote against a second referendum. That is a deliberate but not explicit signal, for those who like to read the runes.
  18. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    I’m beyond amazed he even got through basic training!
  19. gavreid

    gavreid pfm Member

    The same way the rich get their kids into Harvard possibly ;)
  20. eternumviti

    eternumviti pfm Member

    I know nothing about the rather distasteful Francois or his military 'career', but it worth just pointing out before we get too bitchy that an awful lot of people who served in Afghanistan, most particularly those in the front-line medical facilities at Bastion which performed countless life-saving miracles, were 'weekend soldiers' too.
    flatpopely and poppop like this.
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