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Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+20)?

Discussion in 'off topic' started by farfromthesun, Apr 4, 2019.

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  1. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    The stats indicate a progressive hung parliament, which I’d take over a Labour majority any day of the week!
  2. Darmok

    Darmok "A Priori Teleology."

    A bunch of clangers, amongst other worse things.
    TheDecameron likes this.
  3. SteveS1

    SteveS1 I heard that, pardon?

    I'm slightly more optimistic than I have been for a while and beginning to think Brexit is doomed.

    May is hated by the nutter wing of the Tory party - and yet in this hour of what they view as triumph they can't get rid of her.

    It's as if any pretence of intellectual arguments for Brexit have now just been accepted as lost. None of the contenders for taking over from May has developed any genuine reasons for proceeding. The ERG never 'fessed up to their agenda (reduce regulation, trash worker rights and open up the country to US vulture funds) because those reasons don't look very, err, patriotic. Instead they witter on with empty terms such as 'sovereignty' or 'free trade' because their lunatic vision for Britain was not part of anyone's Leave campaign.

    If a Brexiteer MP had a legitimate position against May we would have seen it. It's pretty obvious we will be politically, socially, economically and financially worse off and with no conceivable gains beyond a reduced and more astringent society. Most MPs now know this or (like IDS, Bone, Francios) they are either too stupid to grasp it, or don't care.

    The reason May's deal is so toxic is because it graphically reveals that leaving the EU means downgrade in our global status, and one from which in a world of huge trading-blocks (with whom we do virtually all our serious business) the UK would be disadvantaged. The ERG's strategy (sic) is rumbled and May should end this humiliating farce and accept the political damage that will be done, it was after all her party's folly.

    She should grow a pair and take on the anger of the pro-Brexit huddle to avoid the far higher levels of legitimate anger that would accompany the country's fate under her deal or worse.
    Nick_G and ff1d1l like this.
  4. HarryB

    HarryB pfm Member

    I bet there's not a single thing on the last Labour manifesto you disagree with. Is there?
    Ragaman and Cav like this.
  5. HarryB

    HarryB pfm Member

    Weren't the Lib Dems under chancer and opportunist Clegg, billed as Progressive? How did that work out? Oh yeah, they jumped into bed with a nasty bunch of right wing crooks.
    Ragaman and Cav like this.
  6. h.g.

    h.g. pfm Member

    It is has almost nothing to do with present policies although a major worry is obviously the potential that exists for a future hard left controlled labour government to introduce destructive policies to rival if not beat the current conservative ones. This is from someone that identifies as centre left and so most of the UK population further to the right are likely to hold even dimmer views of the prospect of a hard left controlled UK government.

    It has everything to do with a lack of trust. If the labour party can't swap Corbyn for almost anybody that isn't perceived as hard left then they need Corbyn to start taking actions to reduce his level of distrust among those that currently don't support the labour party because of the hard left leadership. It doesn't matter how popular Corbyn is with current supporters the labour party has to win back a substantial amount of the support it has lost if it is to govern. Relying on the conservatives to get more and more toxic with the voters is going to backfire badly if the conservatives replace May with someone reasonable. May is going to be replaced soon and if labour are still perceived as a hard left controlled party with the conservatives starting to move back towards the centre support is going to plummet to levels typical of hard left parties.
  7. maxflinn

    maxflinn Tulsi Gabbard 2020.

    Why do you say Corbyn is 'hard-left'?
    HarryB likes this.
  8. jackbarron

    jackbarron Chelsea, London

    Exactly. The article's headline is The numbers don’t lie: Labour must back a people’s vote to win the next election. Mind you it's written by a Labour MP I've never trusted - Owen Smith.

    Corbyn meanwhile is juggling the Leave votes, some of whom are racists and nationalists, with the Remain ones. He doesn't at heart want a second Referendum, because Remain might clinch it. But he might be forced to properly support one in order to win the next election.

    Corbyn must be snivelling in tandem his otherwise great mentor Tony Benn.

  9. jackbarron

    jackbarron Chelsea, London

    The most obvious example is Corbyn turned from being a deliberately lukewarm supporter of Remain into a hard line Leaver after the Referendum result came through, knowing full well that racists and nationalists voted Leave.

    He doesn't give a monkey's about principles. It's all about trying to claw in votes, no matter where they come from.

    The irony is he could be forced to support a second referendum, which Remain might win. If they do, it will wipe smile off his hypocritical gob.

    Other than that I like most of Labour's policy ideas. Unfortunately Brexit is one of the two biggest issues of the last 45 years. At this rate it looks like Labour will get both of them wrong.

  10. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    You’re letting yourself down now EV.
  11. h.g.

    h.g. pfm Member

    He will have to wrestle with his convictions to see if he is able to bend. Rather the opposite to Blair who was prepared to bend with whatever those focus grouped told him in order to get into power to do some good (as well as go nuts). Personally I would rather have someone somewhere in between with enough conviction for us to have confidence in their position but not too much to prevent getting things done in the real world. We will see how much Corbyn and company are prepared to bend.
  12. Cav

    Cav pfm Member

    Your definition of "hard left" is what most Labour members would define as "Socialist".

    What you want is the Labour Party to become the Tory-lite Party again. Dream on.
    HarryB likes this.
  13. h.g.

    h.g. pfm Member

    As before, type "corbyn hard left" into google and read the links possibly skipping over the obviously hard right ones. He has been around for decades and until he shows some evidence of moderating he really isn't worth any more effort. The labour party yes but not Corbyn.
  14. maxflinn

    maxflinn Tulsi Gabbard 2020.

    Asking me to Google isn't an answer.

    How about telling us what a moderate is?
    HarryB and Ragaman like this.
  15. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    Yup, did that.

    Just under articles form the usual right wing newspapers you warned about is this. Are these the hard left ideas of which you speak?
    HarryB likes this.
  16. MVV

    MVV pfm Member

    He's not letting himself down. He's just showing us what he really is. That attack on Lammy, referring to him as an idiot, I took as a defence of the ERG. He will pop up in a minute with some ornate faux reasonableness, or as I prefer, load of old w**k.
    kendo, Bob McC and NeilR like this.
  17. h.g.

    h.g. pfm Member

    Possibly but the term hard left includes my dislike and distrust of what lies to the left of centre-left.

    No I am centre-left socially and radical centre economically (major surgery but within the current system). Radical Social Democrat?

    I might prefer "one nation" centre-right conservatism (if this is what you mean by tory-light) over hard left labour as the lesser of two evils but it would be close and depend on the details. I wouldn't vote for either.
  18. Sue Pertwee-Tyr

    Sue Pertwee-Tyr pfm Member

    This misrepresents the issue. It is not ‘one particular issue’ (which would make them intransigent) it is THE issue of the day. You know, the one which is currently paralysing Parliament and hoovering up all Civil Service resources. You argue that Corbyn is a man of principle for sticking to what he believes is right, but you criticise left-leaning but hard line Remainers for doing the same.
    Nick_G and jackbarron like this.
  19. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    To my mind Corbyn is an utterly hopeless and ineffectual leader who is stuck in an archaic party with antiquated ideology and ridiculously outmoded and slow-moving internal processes. Absolutely unfit for purpose, but he isn’t ‘hard-left’. This is just moderate run of the mill Labour from the 1970s and appears to still run on 1970s trade union methodology. Slow, stodgy, intransigent, ineffective, but from a core policy perspective not necessarily wrong (aside from Brexit where it is just absurdly wrong!).

    There is a lot to like in the Labour manifesto IMHO and it is certainly not an extreme document. I just don’t view Corbyn as a credible leader or the party in its present form as being competent to implement it. The way the whole anti-Semitism thing is still an issue three years in, the way the Party allows vile nationalists like Hoey, Mann etc represent it whilst sharing platforms with the fraudulent far-right etc just proves the party’s structural incompetence. The Labour Party is just not something I can take seriously. Sure, if you put a gun to my head I’d take them over the Tories, but no one is doing that so I’ll vote for something else I view as more credible.
    h.g. likes this.
  20. h.g.

    h.g. pfm Member

    I had a quick skim but didn't read (I am genuinely not interested in wasting my time on the subject of Corbyn) and it looked like yes and no. Some of the replies listed hard left ideas whereas others listed more centre-left ones.
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