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Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+20)?

Discussion in 'off topic' started by farfromthesun, Apr 4, 2019.

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  1. h.g.

    h.g. pfm Member

    As I have mentioned before I have been unavoidably exposed to the hard left since my teens due to family involvement. Just like everyone else that takes an interest in UK politics I have been exposed to Corbyn's views and (in)actions for the last few years. I recognise them. I haven't learnt by rote or have readily to hand the details of his views because I have no interest in them or him as person only as a problem to a functional labour opposition party. With a few minutes effort I could have easily assembled a response but he simply isn't worth even that amount of effort to me.
  2. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    Apart from the business owner/IT thing, I’m with you all the way. I’ve voted Green (I was a member at one time) and Lib Dem in the past. I too am a million miles away from anything revolutionary, but this country has gone so far to the right that ‘normal’ politics, normal, common sense, every day social considerations of what is right and wrong seem to have got distorted to an alarming degree. I have no love for Corbyn, but it seems to me that his policies and his principles (Brexit aside) are nothing more than normal, common sense, everyday considerations to address so much of what I think we both agree is wrong with society as it stands.
    Alex S, Konteebos, HarryB and 6 others like this.
  3. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    So you’ve made an assertion. The assertion is baseless. But you could justify it after the event with just ‘a few minutes effort’.

    Still waiting.
    maxflinn likes this.
  4. ff1d1l

    ff1d1l pfm Member

    As you did.
    SteveS1 and jackbarron like this.
  5. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    You brought them down by voting for Brexit. Remarkable strategist or do you just not like foreigners?
    SteveS1 likes this.
  6. jackbarron

    jackbarron Chelsea, London


  7. Romulus

    Romulus pfm Member

    Cameron was doing OK even the budget at his time of tenure sort of reflected the times, until he made that catastrophic vain move of giving the public that referendum in regard to 'B'. He may not regret his decision in public, but within deep down I think he feels very differently.
  8. peter bj

    peter bj pfm Member

    He was strongly advised not to hold the referendum and I am sure he 100% regrets it creating the most chaos in politics ever !!!!!!!!!!
  9. gassor

    gassor There may be more posts after this.

    100% sure? Time to think again Pete.

    "Non, je ne regrette rien"

  10. h.g.

    h.g. pfm Member

    I have mentioned several times that if Corbyn can act against his convictions in order to benefit the labour party and not his gang then that is likely to be enough to swing my vote albeit without any enthusiasm. An example of that would be something more than mumbling support for a second referendum. But it is not really about a particular policy but reducing distrust in extremism.

    What policies do I claim to support beyond the obvious one in remaining closely integrated with Europe? As far as I am aware I haven't discussed details of the policies I would favour particularly as I am still gathering information in order to determine what they may be. One of the benefits of losing faith in all the current political parties has been a tendency to look more widely and at more neutral(ish) academic sources to form views even though it takes a bit more effort.

    We got here by a sustained series of small changes that tended to benefit the 1% at the expense of the 99% over a period pushing half a century. How we best reverse the process needs debating but a widespread recognition and acceptance of what has happened and why has to come first. Banging on about biggies like brexit and austerity is unhelpful. It has been a process not one or two particular events. If the process can be reversed by getting the genuine interests of the 99% better represented sorting out the details will follow. How we are governed needs to be fixed and, as far as I am aware, Corbyn and friends have little interest in this given they have almost reached the controls of government.

    Has May got steel or bloody mindedness? Has Corbyn got steel or bloody mindedness? To me the need seems to be more for a calm acceptance of what has happened and a willingness to work to fix it more than getting worked up for a fight. How do we get government to work steadily in a rational evidence based way to benefit the majority? I don't think it has much to do with steel but more to do with changing the incentives of those that govern us.

    I have pointed out more than once how change in other European countries has come via the young. Less so in the UK but in the past we haven't really had any significant numbers on either the extreme left or right to goad things in the way they have in a fair few other European countries. That may be changing. I have asked before about the number of the young that initially embraced Corbynism and have become disillusioned with what they have experienced over the last few years. They look like a rich resource of left leaning people to effect change in a way I am likely to thoroughly approve.
  11. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    Yes, what we need is a politician with policies aimed at benefiting the many, not the few.
    HarryB likes this.
  12. farfromthesun

    farfromthesun pfm Member

    This comment is below the belt and unnecessary.
  13. eternumviti

    eternumviti pfm Member

    Nice one. Look up Dunning-Kruger.

    I'm, not at all sure that he did. Using very carefully measured words, and inevitably contradicting himself in the process, he did just the opposite;

    "The fact is that this is a parliamentary democracy, we are...the great tradition of democracy in this country, and I'm appalled about anyone who starts talking about the extremes of yesteryear..." and goes on to express his distress at the "chilling" parallels between the economic plight of the 1930s and the fact that living standards in this country have been frozen since 2008 and people are looking for scapegoats in the "bureaucrats of Brussels, the immigrants and the foreigners, the élites, all that sort of stuff..."

    What Heseltine certainly didn't do was to accuse J R-M or anyone else of being Nazis. I would suggest that all Heseltine and Lammy have in common is that are both fervent pro-EU advocates.

    Oh, Lammy's an idiot for sure, but he's a clever one, an articulate rabble-rouser. He started off as seeming reasonable, but quickly showed his fangs when Marr confronted him with the footage of his tirade last month, doubling down on his ludicrous, in fact revolting, assertions that people who argue our more absolute rights to control our own laws and borders are not just Nazis, but worse than the Nazis - that is to say that Jacob Rees-Mogg is worse than the regime that evaporated 6 million Jews, an unspeakable yet quite deliberate insult to both J R-M and anyone who happens to believe in the UK as a sovereign entity, not to mention the victims of the holocaust and the Second World War. Oh, and he also used the opportunity to ride his beleagured 'ethnic minority' hobby horse again, even somehow contriving to drag apartheid into it.

    So, wrong in just about every way imaginable.

    Funny that were I to mention 'the war' I would be accused of the Godwin's nonsense. Lammy does it, and he becomes prime ministerial material amongst some of our fellow travellers.

    Am I now.

    To conflate my calling Lammy an idiot with a defence of the ERG is to revert yet again to that dangerous lefty trend for labelling anyone with whom you disagree of being a fascistracistxenophobebigot, one designed purely to shut down debate. I don't anyway need to defend the ERG, I'm sure that they are perfectly capable of doing that for themselves. I see them as advocates of what is called a 'hard Brexit' by its detractors, and a 'sovereign Brexit' by its supporters. I don't happen to agree with them, though I reluctantly suspect that if there is to be a Brexit, the hard option may well be the only one that will work.

    Could Lammy's inflammatory rhetoric already be having the desired effect amongst the hard of thinking?

    That really isn't clever.
  14. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    I’m waiting on the “E.U. will use hard pressed British tax payers money to rebuild Notre Dame”.
    Barrymagrec likes this.
  15. SteveS1

    SteveS1 I heard that, pardon?

    As usual, you've blundered away deflecting from the points he was making during that interview. Mogg and co are using the same techniques as the Nazis used in Germany before they got to do what they subsequently did and people, seemingly you are making a case for, were captivated by these messages.

    Had the Nazis campaigned on what exactly what they were ultimately about, do you think they would have been elected? Rather like some of the Brexiteers, the shouty public nationalists were very receptive to the earlier more benign promises made, the problems imagined and the solutions offered (mainly your situation is all everyone else's fault, they are preventing your greatness etc.).

    Back to the parallels. Like the early Nazis, Mogg and Co are a parasitic party within a party, something you seem more attuned to when it's Momentum. Like the Nazis, the ERG have agenda beyond their rabble rousing and public utterances.

    More specifically the ERG kept their reasons very quiet during the referendum (their wish to wipe out regulation, dispose of worker rights and open up the country to American vulture funds among others) because in the cold light of day, without the Brexit emotion whipped up, their reasons would be viewed either as lunatic or treasonous. This delay has mercifully kept them permanently on the back foot. They are obliged to use more benign outcomes such as 'sovereignty' or 'free trading nation' that we already have, because their vision for Britain was not put out there for scrutiny.

    To that end, Lammy's comments (and just to remind you, I'm talking only about that Marr interview) were pretty much on the money and the Brexit Broadcasting Corporation have responded to Tory/ERG threats of further regulation and licence fee removal, by giving them and Brexit in general, a laughably easy ride.
    Nick_G, PsB, kendo and 8 others like this.
  16. MikeMA

    MikeMA pfm Member

    The EU should, at the very least, give France assistance towards the cost of restoration. :)
  17. Bob McC

    Bob McC Living the life of Riley

    Manchester got £21.5 million in 1996 from the EU to help with recovery after the IRA bomb.
  18. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    Had you posted Rees Mogg’s far-right/fascist content here on pfm the post would have been removed and you would have been banned for a month minimum. Lammy was entirely correct to call this entitled far-right Etonian thug out on his vile behaviour and point out exactly what fire he is playing with. Good on him.
    Nick_G, kendo, HarryB and 9 others like this.
  19. Ragaman

    Ragaman Mentalist

    I voted Tory by Proxy??

    How so.

    I didn't vote for Tory policy by voting for Brexit, you did by voting remain, both Cameron & May campaigned for remain.

    The referendum was not a policy, it was an option to leave or remain in the EU. You chose to align yourself with Cameron & May's option.
  20. ff1d1l

    ff1d1l pfm Member

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