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Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+21)?

Discussion in 'off topic' started by ff1d1l, Apr 21, 2019.

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  1. jackbarron

    jackbarron Chelsea, London

    You are patronizing to the point where it's laughable. Labour are a cowardly. 150 MPs have said they won't back any Brexit deal without a confirmatory vote. That's almost three-quarters of the Labour MPs. Unfortunately they still haven't told Corbyn to fkuc off and resign.

    The voters will though during the European and general elections. Polls show they are deserting Labour for other Parties, because they want to stay in the EU. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/16/labour-brexit-remain-voters-european-elections

    "This is clear from a detailed analysis of recent YouGov surveys by its political team. In common with other pollsters, it has picked up a sharp reduction in Labour’s support, from 21% in late April to 16% last week."

    Unfortunately it seems like more are going to the Lib Dems than Green, but that's life.

    ff1d1l and lordsummit like this.
  2. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    And when asked for evidence, goes silent
    droodzilla and maxflinn like this.
  3. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    Cameron’s autobiography is due out in September. I liked this in the Guardian-

    “I would expect his line to be that, if the British public were really daft enough to want to leave the EU, it was not his job to stop them. In another era a member of the patrician ruling class like Cameron would have said that that was exactly what the job entailed.)”.
  4. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    And coming out against the referendum result wouldn't have cost them anything at all.

    You can carry on pretending there's an easy answer to all of this but I wouldn't throw the word "facile" around if that's your preference.
    ks.234 and maxflinn like this.
  5. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    So, 150 Labour MPs are for a public vote. First thing to note is that that's a lot more than a few months ago. 2nd thing is that it's a lot less than actually voted for one: I think that was 206. That means at least 56 MPs voted for a public vote not because they want one but because Corbyn whipped for one. Next time it will be more, because Corbyn will be able to say that he did everything he could to get Brexit over the line. But it's those 40 or so MPs who are still voting against or abstaining on a PV who represent an obstacle that Labour can actually do something about. Not Corbyn.
    Steve Taylor and HarryB like this.
  6. lordsummit

    lordsummit Moderator

    It would have put them on the right side of history when it all comes out in the wash. When PM Johnson takes us out without a deal, Labour will have not a leg to stand on, because whilst in opposition and with the majority of the party being remainders they instead enabled Brexit.
    jackbarron and Nick_G like this.
  7. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    Could be sooner rather than later. Brady handed her the shovel and told her to start digging her political grave today. It’s now pressing.
  8. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    If that's what you think is going to happen, and you think Corbyn could have stopped it, then I can understand why you're angry. But I don't see this happening in a million years. I mean, how? And how could Corbyn stop it? Or do you think it's inevitable, but that when it happens it would be nice to be able to say, Well, we did the right thing?
  9. lordsummit

    lordsummit Moderator

    I’m angry because whilst he might not have been able to change much in parliament, he can certainly provide a rallying call for the opposition to it, instead he’s letting Farage take the headlines and the glory. Could you imagine the success a remain Labour might experience at the European Elections? What pressure that might apply. Then the opportunity when it all goes tits up to say I told you so, you Johnson and Farage own this mess. But instead he’s chosen to co-construct, to facilitate, to try to weasel his way around the problem. Because of this I have no respect for him, and the party’s current trajectory.
  10. sean99

    sean99 pfm Member

    The pound is tanking again on speculation that the Tory long knives will result in a Brexiteer PM and a no deal Brexit. It is just incredibl(y) depressing to watch the UK self destruct like this.
    wyjsar, jackbarron and TheDecameron like this.
  11. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    OK. We just have very different conceptions of how all this works. But I don't think you need to worry.
  12. matthewr

    matthewr spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld

  13. wyjsar

    wyjsar Nothing but heart

    Those 40 include Ian Lavery, chairman of the Labour Party.
  14. lordsummit

    lordsummit Moderator

    That’s fair enough. There’s an interesting quote in the Guardian article about Cameron’s autobiography. To paraphrase it suggests that Cameron saw it as his job to enable stupidity the people wanted, but a true statesman should protect the people from their stupidity. I see Corbyn and Labour on the wrong side of that as well at the moment.
  15. ks.234

    ks.234 pfm Member

    No. The headlines would’ve been, ‘Corbyn goes against his own Manifesto pledge’, Corbyn the political opportunist’, ‘Corbyn betrays his word and the Country’, Corbyn can’t be trusted’, ‘Corbyn is undemocratic’, ‘Corbyn against the majority of voters’, etc, etc

    And many on here would be all too keen to regurgitate those headlines
    Ragaman likes this.
  16. Nick_G

    Nick_G pfm Member

  17. lordsummit

    lordsummit Moderator

    It should never have been a manifesto pledge. That’s where the rot set in. That gave May the right to say that 80% of voters voted for a Leave party in 2017.
    ff1d1l and stephen bennett like this.
  18. Tony L

    Tony L Administrator

    ...and we should be in no doubt that our votes in the EU election will be interpreted/utilised in the exact same way.
    ff1d1l and stephen bennett like this.
  19. Seanm

    Seanm pfm Member

    The interesting thing about real political differences is where the lines are drawn. I don't think it's between protecting people from their own stupidity or enabling it - because I don't think people are stupid!

    The thing that shocked me most when I joined the party and started going to meetings was that the right of the party - still in charge at that point - really did think that people were stupid - and not just leave voters: they thought ordinary members and especially new members were stupid as well, for wanting policies that were obviously unpopular, a leader who was obviously incompetent etc., for thinking they could be meaningfully involved. They were quite forthright about this!

    That's where the line is for me, belief in people's capacity to speak for themselves and rule themselves.
    droodzilla, Ragaman and ks.234 like this.
  20. wacko

    wacko pfm Member

    May could be gone next month. Grayling has the track record to replace her.
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