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Oh Britain, what have you done (part ∞+5)?

Discussion in 'off topic' started by droodzilla, Jul 9, 2018.

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  1. SteveS1

    SteveS1 I heard that, pardon?

    Hold that thought then re-visit where this has got us.

    The only real card the UK had was so enthusiatically dealt too early by Brexiteers as a moronic sign of defiance - triggering A50. Possibly the worst decision since holding a binary vote on a complex relationship. It was then quickly followed by the Dec statement and that was end game. Forget the Chequers agreement, triggering A50 with no clue was the guarantee that we would have our arses handed to us, it's just taking a while to sink in. I strongly suspect the UK Leave element would be screaming for blood if the roles were reversed and we were talking about another country leaving. DM headlines of 'make 'em pay, not a penny more' etc.
     
    Nick_G and TheDecameron like this.
  2. Swamp Thing

    Swamp Thing Remainiac Terrorist

    It would appear we are capable of self harm an order of magnitude greater than any harm Soros could currently inflict.
     
  3. eternumviti

    eternumviti pfm Member

    Blimey, if that's the case and the AUP ever gets enforced, it should thin this thread out a bit. It will be left with the half-handful such as yourself who never actually provide an argument or engage in the debate taking snipy potshots at articles by Nigel Farage and Rees-Mogg in the DM that nobody here actually reads.
     
  4. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    How about a little more patriotism round here?
     
  5. Still

    Still he said his naim was ralph

    Dusty Ass II: Anger Management
     
    monkfish and TheDecameron like this.
  6. notaclue

    notaclue pfm Member

    Just take the embarrassment of wheeling out your big word and getting it wrong on the chin. Ditto with your Leave vote when the country collapses next April.
     
  7. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    ^ The summation of fatal Tory hubris. The railhead of all stupids, in a nutshell.
     
  8. eternumviti

    eternumviti pfm Member

    Oh, dear...head, hands etc...
     
  9. Barrymagrec

    Barrymagrec pfm Member

    There`s a clause in the AUP that gives circular argument immunity to Brexit threads and Cable threads..............well, it`s the only explanation I can think of.
     
    TheDecameron likes this.
  10. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    Have you got all their albums?
     
    stephen bennett likes this.
  11. Nero

    Nero BLACK BLACK BLACK BLACK BLACK

    and now I can’t stop humming head, shoulders, knees and toes. The new Brexit anthem
     
  12. Sue Pertwee-Tyr

    Sue Pertwee-Tyr pfm Member

    I hear 'vassalage' and think 'Rees-Mogg'. Is that really what you want, EV?

    On your other point, I think the fundamental difficulty with an economic community sans any remnant of political union is that you'll get nation states competing for position at the expense of the others. The accession states in the last decade upset the applecart a fair bit (and the UK didn't help itself by neglecting measures which would have helped it) but in the longer term, everybody settles to a broadly similar level. At least some of the reluctance of Eastern Europeans to come here to do manual work stems from the rise of prosperity (=wages) in their own countries and the weak pound, making the economic differential not worth the aggro they've been getting.

    So without some form of political union, you'd get a race to the bottom on regulation and costs, for economic advantage. Political union gives you a mechanism to level the playing field. If you're really going to have a proper community, you need that community to respect a set of ground rules. Which inevitably leads to at least a degree of political union. I think the two are indivisible, once you start talking about a community the size of the EU (even when it was half the number it is now).

    I don't see the 'ever closer union' as some Machiavellian scheme, so much as a recognition that in a generation from now, the community will be stronger if it stands together politically, economically and ideologically.
     
  13. Stunsworth

    Stunsworth pfm Member

    Song for Suzie is my favourite track. A wonderful guitar solo by Albert Lee.
     
  14. eternumviti

    eternumviti pfm Member

    I refer you back to the second sentence of the second paragraph in the post (#1803) to which you are responding.

    This is all a perfect example of the kind of cognitive dissonance that I keep calling out. Fine, woolly, utopian crypto-socialist theory which entirely fails to take into account the nature of humanity - our natural striving for individuality, our essential tribalism and competitiveness, our attachment to customs and cultural distinctions and histories that have been a thousand years in the making, our pride and sense of self and of belonging - and of the actual, harsh reality. The EU project, for all that has done to lift the formerly oppressed eastern and southern European countries out of the darkness of post-communism and dictatorship, is now, precisely by the constant and progressive imposition of economic and political union, and of its top-down attempts at cultural imperialism, a divisive, even destructive force. And you can't look me in the eye (metaphorically, obviously) and tell me that Germany hasn't played the Euro project to its own massive advantage, and to the very ugly disadvantage of the clubmed countries and even France, that the eastern countries don't compete for the car factories, that London doesn't furiously compete to hold onto its massive dominance in the financial services sector, or that on a more prosaic level French ski schools will employ anyone but French ski instructors, and so on. We are a competitive race. Suppress competition, level the playing field too insistently, and you will quickly get something that looks like communist collectivism.

    I agree, and have often said, that for the EU, or more specifically the Eurozone project, to ever work properly, there has to be a deep degree of fiscal and political union. This isn't going to happen. The current cheerleader for this, Emmanuel Macron, has pretty much expended his first year's goodwill, and he has hit the buffers. Germany will not agree to the transfer union, and it will not trade in any more of its sovereignty (of which it retains, in its constitution, more than we do within the EU). The eastern countries are in open rebellion against Brussels' attempts at cultural imposition, Greece is looking at the next 60 years in cripplingly expensive hock to Germany, and Italy is teetering forever on the brink of a banking meltdown, and has installed an anti Euro/EU government. Ireland won't look pretty when the UK, its biggest market, leaves the EU without a deal, and Brussels whips away the tax advantages that it offers to corporations, and so on.

    Trade involves people and businesses dealing with each other in the complex world of competitive and comparative advantage and disadvantage. It is incumbent upon government and regulatory authorities to regulate and control the markets to a degree that doesn't get too much in the way of them (capitalism, I think we can all agree, requires at least a degree of fettering if it to work to societal advantage) and governments can instigate joint regulatory bodies, by treaty and common agreement, to control technical and social standards across continents, or even globally. All of the really important regulatory and standards bodies are supra-national organisations that are devoted to precisely these ends - ISO, WTO and the various standards authorities which fall within the UN.

    Nobody would dispute that treaty involves some degree of sovereign outsourcing to supranational organisations such as these, or to intergovernmental bodies, but the amount of political sovereignty that countries cede is modest compared with the ambitions of the EU. Australia and New Zealand don't make each other's laws, the EU doesn't make Chile's laws, even the ASEAN nations work on the basis of cooperation and association rather than overt political centralisation.

    The EU is a utopian political project devised to address the problems of the early and mid-20th century, and it is one that no longer carries the consent of the people of the European nations. It is not adapted, and will not adapt, to the needs of the mid-21st century, and in its present form it is a busted flush. It needs to be radically transformed, or broken and replaced. Whether Brexit will serve towards those ends is anyone's guess. If the vision and the statesmanship were there, it could be a massive opportunity. Sadly, it isn't.
     
  15. eternumviti

    eternumviti pfm Member

    Nice, listening to it now. Had never heard of them.
     
  16. Sue Pertwee-Tyr

    Sue Pertwee-Tyr pfm Member

    But this is an argument based on principles, EV. You agree, I think, that a degree of political union is necessary, and probably desirable. So we mainly diverge on where necessity and desirability ends.

    Are you able to give an example of where the project has gone too far, and where the UK has been unable to negotiate an opt-out? Just one example will serve to illustrate your point, please (and preferably in just a couple of short paragraphs, I'm not looking for a dissertation, just an illustrative example).
     
  17. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    Your chloro-chickens await you.
     
  18. eternumviti

    eternumviti pfm Member

    They're very good with chloro-salads from Spain.
     
  19. ff1d1l

    ff1d1l pfm Member

    ET breeze-block soundtracks:
    Dam Busters March
    Nimrod from Enigma Variations
    I Vow to Thee my Country
    Land of Hope & Glory
    My Wife Won't Let Me (whoops, wrong sentiment, right period)
     
  20. stevec67

    stevec67 pfm Member

    There's nothing wrong with chlorine treated food, correctly regulated and within reason. Adding it to the drinking water supply is the greatest improvement in public health since, er, ever. 30 years ago as a youth I was chlorine treating carrots for coleslaw, shortly after that the same with lettuce for sandwiches, so it goes on. Nothing has changed, caterers still use it as a matter of routine on vegetables. It's when it's uncontrolled that it's a problem, I once was served a salad that had so much chlorine in it that the red cabbage had gone blue. I sent it back with the advice to the chef that he might want to water his bleach down a bit before he tipped it on the salad.
     
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