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Discussion in 'audio' started by PBB, Nov 16, 2019.

  1. PBB

    PBB pfm Member

    Who the hell came up with PRAT and what deficiency was the expression attempting to hide?

    Is it ever explained in terms other than some esoteric mumbo jumbo?

    Seems like a futile attempt to pretend that there is music within the music, that no measured difference in the duration of a recorded piece can be found but that, somehow, there is inside the piece of music being reproduced some sort of altered sense of time.

    Weird and wonderful in a fanciful sort of way. I guess people can be convinced of marvelous discoveries in some wonderful other dimension if you entertain them with notions of elevated perception of reality to stroke their ego.

    Ah yes every part of infinity is itself infinite...

    I'm going to bed now...
    Julf and narabdela like this.
  2. Shane2468

    Shane2468 pfm Member


    Julf and tuga like this.
  3. Del monaco

    Del monaco pfm Member

    Agree.Marketing. Naim has a particular sound.its like Marmite.You like it or you don’t. I used Naim for a while. Really liked it with acoustic but I found the more instruments that were added the more fatiguing it became and there was always an edge to the music that bothered me. Once I grew my Classical collection it was clear I needed to move on to something else.In the end I was forced to sell and found something more in keeping with the music I listened to. Not a bad product though and an important part of my journey.
  4. chartz

    chartz pfm Member

    Any old music on any old hi-fi conveys rhythm and pace and timing perfectly fine. It's within the music itself, not in the equipment of course.

    The whole thing was silly. Vereker and Tiefenbrun were clever chaps who had Brits believe that hi-fi was their exclusive realm and that the rest - anything Japanese especially - was bad.

    The rest of the world wasn't so convinced though :p
    Snufkin, Julf, tuga and 1 other person like this.
  5. david ellwood

    david ellwood Kirabosi Kognoscente

    Anyone who has explored Audio beyond a certain point eventually gives up chasing ever increasing amounts of clarity or bandwidth.

    the idea that thousands of people were taken in by some clever confidence trick that involved actually playing the difference in an AB demonstration is laughable.

    Do you really have a problem with someone assessing a music replay system in terms of pitch and rhythm?
  6. chartz

    chartz pfm Member

    It doesn't make any sense. How can equipment alter them?
    Julf likes this.
  7. david ellwood

    david ellwood Kirabosi Kognoscente

    Go educate yourself, or not, it’s up to you.

    Words in a forum post, I’m certain, will not change your opinion.
    Mr Underhill, wylton and Wilson like this.
  8. chartz

    chartz pfm Member

    I did experience Linn/Naim dealers (two of them) in the past, at the time of one speaker dems. They couldn’t explain PRAT, or convince me of anything back then.
    I preferred the Quad dealer, who also did McIntosh, Thorens and AR. He produced much better sounds.

    I mean to learn, in earnest. Please explain.
    narabdela likes this.
  9. Shadders

    Shadders pfm Member

    The gullibility of the hifi community is exposed through the acronym (PRaT) for a description of a subjective effect that has no explanation, yet everyone seems to be talking about it.

    This was the joke upon the hifi community, that they are easily lead, and if someone presents a quantity/effect, that literally has no science behind it, that they will surely believe it, because someone of importance, said it was so.

    The clue in the joke, is the actual acronym itself.

    Rockmeister, fried, Snufkin and 5 others like this.
  10. chartz

    chartz pfm Member

    I might add, the gullibility of the British hi-fi community then, led by biased mags. I know, I still have a whole collection of those!
    However, this finally changed through the noughties thanks to mags like HFW in UK.
    Here in France, Linn and Naim stuff were much less praised. Think religion here.
    tuga and Shadders like this.
  11. Woodface

    Woodface pfm Member

    I think the basis was that hifi could never hope to fully create the live experience but could accurately convey its essence 'PRAT'. I have some sympathy with this but have never been brow beaten in this direction by my dealer. I like the naim sound, may well look at options at some point but don't lose sleep over it.

    Linn/Naim turned into relatively small successful companies that carved out a good sized niche. Nothing more nothing less. The idea that the Japanese hifi corporations were somehow the victims is so laughable.
  12. Martyn Miles

    Martyn Miles pfm Member

    I recall the audio reviewer Martin Colloms prattling on ( sorry...) about PRAT in many of his reviews in the early/mid. Nineties.
    He included turntables, amplifiers, CD players, etc.
    I never ‘got’ what he was on about.
    I carried on listening to music...
  13. david ellwood

    david ellwood Kirabosi Kognoscente

    ”They couldn’t explain PRAT, or convince me of anything“

    Like the burden of proof is theirs entirely?

    In my years working in a shop I came across a few people whose brains refused to give their ears a chance to hear anything.
    Sue Pertwee-Tyr and davidjt like this.
  14. James

    James Lord of the Erg\o/s

    A Naim dealer once called me a prat. I'm not sure if I should take that as an insult or compliment.
    steveinspain, Tarzan and deebster like this.
  15. david ellwood

    david ellwood Kirabosi Kognoscente

    You’ll have to give us some context,

    were you being a prat?
  16. DavidS

    DavidS pfm Member

    Persistent religious audio state.
    Julf and Tarzan like this.
  17. Martyn Miles

    Martyn Miles pfm Member

    Is that an American state ?
  18. chartz

    chartz pfm Member

    That is not who I am. I tried very hard, believe me, spending countless hours listening.
    But then again, I am not a religious, gullible person. I have never been sensitive to any religious speech, and that’s what I heard back then. I thought the process dishonest.
    Hi-fi is just a means to an end - music, nothing else.
    Shadders likes this.
  19. tuga

    tuga European

  20. Charlie_1

    Charlie_1 pfm Member

    I’m not quite old enough to have experienced any evangelical dealers and magazines but they certainly seem to have annoyed many people during that period and it’s not been forgotten. Some accounts I’ve read also suggest a level of arrogance by Linn, perhaps Naim too.

    However, I do believe Julian and Ivor were onto something. Something which has been diluted over the years, but whatever you call it, some of the very first Naim chrome bumper and early Linn products are the most musically coherent that I’ve found so far.

    I think where they got it wrong is in assuming everyone else experiences music the way they do, and therefore, they had universally superior products. I also put some of their behaviour down to enthusiasm and wanting other people to experience the same benefits they were getting, but of course, not everyone does.

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