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Radio 3 Record Review Mahler 3 & in general!

Discussion in 'classical' started by kimmiles, Nov 14, 2019.

  1. kimmiles

    kimmiles pfm Member

    Well, I listened to last Saturday's review again and it STILL made my blood boil!!
    I think that I've posted before about the awful format that the collection section now uses; it USED to be my absolute favourite program on R3. It was informative, loads of comparisons and, quite obviously, well prepared. It now seems to be so self-indulgent, it seems like two know-it-alls having an unrehearsed chat, trying to exclude all of the listeners with in-comments and with so many ums, errs and hesitations that Just A Minute would have a field day!!!! Oh: wait a minute - that's EXACTLY how it comes across!
    The Mahler 3rd was one of the worst editions; and that's saying something! How on Earth could a reviewer choose only 6/7 versions and exclude ALL of the others, with NO reasons given at all! I wouldn't mind but when Mahler 3 was done a couple of years ago, the Chailly/Concertgebouw was first choice (one of mine, too!) - not even bloody mentioned this edition! Nor Tennstedt, Maazel, Karajan, Litton, Barbirolli, Horenstein to name but a few!!!!
    Now, I do have the VPO: Abbado version, as well as 4 other versions (the 3rd is one of my favourite symphonies, full stop!) so I don't have an axe to grind about the chosen version but, seriously, for a programme that is supposed to be helpful and informative, it really was complete PANTS!!!
    I despair!!!
    marshanp likes this.
  2. JensenHealey

    JensenHealey pfm Member

    I haven't listened to RR for a long time now - so must check it out. Excuse to investigate the 'Sounds' thing perhaps - I assume this is a separate doings from the BBC Iplayer on my Smart TV?

    Mahler 3 is one of my all time favorite pieces too. I think I only have two versions in my collection, 1 LP and 1 CD - no doubt I could find dozens more on Tidal / Roon - maybe I will spend a evening dipping in some of those!
  3. narabdela

    narabdela who?

    Neither have I. It went down the pan years ago.:(
  4. alanbeeb

    alanbeeb pfm Member

    Haven't heard this one but I have quite enjoyed a few recently, the last two weeks on Mozart Grand Partita and Bach BWV1042 Violin Cto were worth a listen - but obviously these are much more compact and easily digestible works than Mahler 3!

    But... disappointed they didn't mention Chailly's Mahler 3 with the Concertgebouw, which for me is one of the greatest classical recordings ever, everything about it is so right and the finale is perfect. And its a stonking recording too (I have it on SACD).

    However, it may be that they have a policy of only selecting from currently available recordings and I wouldn't be surprised if its only available now as part of much larger box set. Decca have a terrible habit of locking up some of Chailly's great recordings with the Concertgebouw and RSO Berlin in box sets or vanishing them entirely - same story with his stupendous Bruckner 5. In fact just browsing Presto and both these magnificent recording are only available from them on their download service which they provide off their own bat - i.e. not from Decca/Universal.

    Same story at Amazon - shows as currently unavailable or used only.

    Anyway how do you justice to a colossal 90 minute symphony with a multitude of recordings available - in only a 45 minute programme?
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
  5. George J

    George J Herefordshire member

    I miss the printed Penguin Guide.

    Record Review often used to be good, and with not always the same conclusions as Penguin. Obviously we all have our favourite recorded musicians. For me three are paramount. Otto Klemperer, Adolf Busch and Edwin Ficsher and non of these were discovered via Radio Three! Indeed even Penguin, but rather actual records I was able to listen to, and consult the printed scores in most cases.

    Penguin was quite a fan of Karajan, but once one dug deeper into the reviews - second or third preferences - one found the real gems.

    The real problem is that the only way to find one's favourite performing musicians is to attend concerts, listen to live relays and listen to recordings.

    The BBC has long since gone down the road of celebrity presenters, plus facile end live of concert opinions that "guide" the innocent and form will-full opinion.

    I still listen to Record Review as often as possible, but am totally immune to any opinion expressed. I still have found worthwhile recordings from away from the main choice ...

    ATB from George
  6. kimmiles

    kimmiles pfm Member

    Well: colour me surprised!! The chosen piece on Saturday was Haydn's 102nd symphony (much underrated, in my humble opinion!) and was actually really interesting! The reviewer actually admitted that she had left many versions out of the comparison and actually justified her reasons! Awesome!
    Now, I don't agree with her final choice but I could see where she was coming from.
    Faith restored......for one week! And I still can't forgive that awful Mahler 3 review!!!
  7. Stunsworth

    Stunsworth pfm Member

    The available Mahler 3rd versions below. I think it's obvious that such a list is unmanageable without severe pruning for the program.

    From the Radio 3 forum http://www.for3.org/forums/showthread.php?20928-BaL-9-11-19-Mahler-Symphony-no-3

    Anna Larsson, Arnold Schoenberg Choir Vienna & Tölzer Knabenchor, Lucerne Festival Orchestra, Claudio Abbado (DVD/Blu-ray)
    Anna Larsson, Berlin Philharmonic, Claudio Abbado
    Jessye Norman, Wiener Philharmoniker, Wiener Staatsoper, Wiener Sängerknaben, Claudio Abbado
    Utah Symphony Orchestra, Maurice AbravaneHilde Rössel-Majdan, Vienna Symphony Orchestra & Wiener Sängerknaben, Charles Adler *Brigitte Pinter, Hildesheim Boy's Choir, Belcanto Children and Youth Choir, members, Brunswick State Theatre Women's Chorus, Brunswick State Orchestra, Jonas AlberIris Vermillion, Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin, Frauenchor Des Rundfunkchores Berlin, Staats- und Domchor Berlin, Knabenchor an der Hochschule der Künste Berlin, Vladimir Ashkenazy
    Lucretia West, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, Sir John Barbirolli
    Christa Ludwig, New York Choral Artists, Brooklyn Boys Chorus & New York Philharmonic, Leonard Bernstein
    Martha Lipton, New York Philharmonic Orchestra, Boys' Choir of the Little Church Around the Corner, New York Schola Cantorum Women's Chorus, Leonard Bernstein *
    Anne Sofie von Otter, Wiener Philharmoniker, Wiener Sängerknaben, Women Chorus of Singverein der Gesellschaft der Musikfreunde, Pierre Boulez
    Kathleen Ferrier, BBC Symphony Ornchestra, Sir Adrian Boult
    Marjana Lipovšek, WDR Sinfonieorchester Köln, Ladies of the WDR Rundfunkchors Köln, Girls and Boys from the Cathedral Choir, Köln, Semyon Bychkov *
    Petra Lang, Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, Prague Philharmonic Choir, Netherlands Children's Choir, Riccardo Chailly
    Mignon Dunn, Manhattan School of Music Symphony Orchestra and Chorus, Glen Cortese (DVD)
    Alexandra Petersamer, Stuttgart Philharmonic Orchestra, Czech Philharmonic Choir, Brno (female members), Aurelius Sangerknaben Calw, Gabriel Feltz
    Linda Finnie, Royal Scottish National Orchestra Chorus, Female members, Royal Scottish National Orchestra Junior Chorus, Royal Scottish National Orchestra, Neeme Jarvi *
    Anna Larsson, Düsseldorfer Symphoniker, Ádám Fischer
    Gerhild Romberger, Budapest Festival Orchestra, Cantemus Children's Choir, Chor des Bayerischen Rundfunks, Iván Fischer (SACD)
    Heather Foutz, Brigham Young University Philharmonic Orchestra, Brigham Young University Women's Concert Choir, Salt Lake Children's Choir, Kory Katseanes *
    Anna Larsson, London Symphony Orchestra, London Symphony Chorus, Tiffin Boys' Choir, Valéry Gergiev (SACD)
    Cornelia Kallisch, SWR Sinfonieorchester Baden-Baden und Freiburg, Michael Gielen
    Petra Lang, Women of the Westminster Symphonic Choir, The American Boychoir, New York Philharmonic, Alan Gilbert
    Women's Chorus of the Netherlands Radio, Boys' Chorus of St Willibrord Church, Amsterdam, Netherlands Radio Chorus & Concertgebouw Orchestra, Bernard Haitink
    Gerhild Romberger, Augsburger Domsingknaben, Frauenchor des Bayerischen Rundfunks, Symphonieorchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks, Bernard Haitink *
    Michelle DeYoung, Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Women of the Chicago Symphony Chorus, Chicago Children's Choir, Bernard Haitink *
    Jard van Nes, Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra, Women of the Ernst-Senff Choir, Tölzer Knabenchor, Bernard Haitink
    Michelle DeYoung, Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra, Mendelssohn Choir of Pittsburgh & Children’s Festival Chorus of Pittsburgh, Manfred Honeck (SACD)
    Norma Proctor, Ambrosian Singers, Wandsworth School Boys Choir, London Symphony Orchestra, Jascha Horenstein
    Helen Watts, London Symphony Orchestra and Chorus, Jascha Horenstein
    Frankfurt Radio Symphony Orchestra, Limburg Cathedral Boys Choir, Frankfurt Kantorei Women's Chorus, Eliahu Inbal *
    Kaori Ikeda, Tokyo Metropolitan Symphony Orchestra, Nikikai Chorus Group, Eliahu Inbal *
    Bernarda Fink, Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, Netherlands Radio Choir, Boys of the Breda Sacrament Choir, Rijnmond Boys’ Choir, Mariss Jansons (SACD)
    Bernarda Fink, Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, Netherlands Radio Choir, Boys of the Breda Sacrament Choir, Rijnmond Boys’ Choir, Mariss Jansons (DVD/Blu-ray))
    Randi Stene, Oslo Philharmonic Orchestra & Chorus, Mariss Jansons
    Waltraud Meier, Frankfurt Radio Symphony Orchstra, Paavo Järvi (DVD/Blu-ray))
    Jadwiga Rappe, Ensemble feminine de Musique vocale de Lausanne, Maitrise du Conservatoire Populaire de Geneve, Orchestre de la Suisse Romande, Armin Jordan *
    Bernadett Wiedemann, Budapest Philharmonic Orchestra, Chorus of the Hungarian State Opera House, Rico Saccani, Anikó Katona *
    Valentina Levko, Moscow Philharmonic Orchestra, Moscow State Chamber Choir, Moscow State Children's Choir, Yurlov State Choir Capella, Kirill Kondrashin
    Marjorie Thomas, Symphonie-Orchester des Bayerischen Rundfunks, Chor des Bayerischen Rundfunks, Der Tölzer Knabenchor, Rafael Kubelik
    Marilyn Horne, Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Women of the Chicago Symphony Chorus, Glen Ellyn Children’s Chorus, James Levine
    Dallas Symphony Orchestra & Chorus, Andrew Litton
    Michelle DeYoung, Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, Jesus Lopez-Cobos
    Sarah Connolly, Philharmonia Orchestra, Philharmonia Voices, Tiffin Boys' Choir, BBC Symphony Chorus, Lorin Maazel
    Anna Larsson, The American Boychoir, Women of the Westminster Symphonic Choir, New York Philharmonic Orchestra, Lorin Maazel *
    Agnes Baltsa, Damenchor der Konzertvereinigung Wiener Staatsopernchor, Die Wiener Sängerknaben, Wiener Philharmoniker, Lorin Maazel *
    Czech Philharmonic Orchestra, Zdenek Macal
    Marjana Lipovsek, Vienna Boys Choir, Women's Chorus of the Vienna Singverein, Bavarian State Orchestra, Zubin Mehta (SACD)
    Marjana Lipovsek, Bavarian State Orchestra, Vienna Boys‘ Choir & Women‘s Chorus of the Vienna Singverein, Zubin Mehta (DVD/Blu-ray)
    Maureen Forrester, Israel Philharmonic Orchestra, Los Angeles Philharmonic Orchestra, Zubin Mehta
    Lucretia West, Kölner Rundfunk-Sinfonie-Orchester, Dimitri Mitropoulos
    New York Philharmonic Orchestra & Westminster Choir, Dimitri Mitropoulos
    Beatrice Krebs, Philharmonic Symphony Orchestra, Dimitri Mitropoulos
    Dagmar Pecková, Women of the Rundfunkchor, Berlin, Hannover Boys' Choir, Deutsches Symphonie-Orchester Berlin, Kent Nagano *
    Czech Philharmonic Orchestra, Vaclav Neumann
    Mihoko Fujimura, Bamberger Symphoniker, Jonathan Nott (SACD)
    Jessye Norman, Boston Symphony Orchestra, Tanglewood Festival Chorus, American Boys' Choir, Seiji Ozawa
    Ewa Marcinec, Boys of the Mainzer Domchors, Ladies of the Domkantorei Mainz, Staatsorchester Rheinische Philharmonie, Daniel Raiskin
    Birgit Remmert, City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra, City of Birmingham Symphony Chorus Women, City of Birmingham Symphony Chorus, Sir Simon Rattle
    Sara Mingardo, Gürzenich-Orchester Köln, Women's choir of Schola Heidelberg, Young singers of the Kölner Dom, François-Xavier Roth
    Anna Larsson, Women Of The Los Angeles Master Chorale , The Paulist Boy Choristers of California, Los Angeles Philharmonic, Esa-Pekka Salonen *
    Sonna Cervena, Leipzig Radio Symphony Orchestra, Hermann Scherchen
    Ruth Siewert, Mitglieder des Südfunk Chor, Knabenchor des Eberhard Ludwig Gymnasium, Carl Schuricht
    Stuttgart Radio Symphony Orchestra, Carl Schuricht
    Catherine Wyn-Rogers, Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Choir, Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Orchestra, Liverpool Philharmonic Youth Choir, Seattle Symphony Orchestra, Gerard Schwarz *
    Anne Gjevang, Danish National Radio Choir, Copenhagen Boys' Choir, Danish National Radio Symphony Orchestra, Leif Segerstam *
    Hannah Schwarz, Philharmonia Orchestra, Women's Voices Of The Philharmonia, New London Children's Choir, Giuseppe Sinopoli
    Helga Dernesch, Chicago Symphony Orchestra, Chicago Symphony Orchestra Women's Chorus, Glen Ellyn Children's Chorus, Sir Georg Solti
    Helen Watts, London Symphony Orchestra, Wandsworth School Boys Choir, Ambrosian Opera Chorus, Sir Georg Solti
    Michaela Schuster, Güzenich-Orchester Köln, Mädchen und Knaben der Chöre am Kölner Dom, Damenchor der Oper Köln, Markus Stenz
    Sona Swarowsky, Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra, RIAS Kammerchor, Staats- und Domchor Berlin, Hans Swarowsky *
    Diana Eustrati, WDR Sinfonieorchester Köln, Eugen Szénkar *
    Brigitte Pretschner, Sofia Philharmonic Orchestra, Bulgarian National Svetoslav Obretenov Choir, Bodra Smyana Children's Choir, Emil Tabakov *
    Ortrun Wenkel, London Philharmonic Choir, Southend Boys' Choir, Ladies Of The London Philharmonic Choir, John Alldis, London Philharmonic Orchestra, Klaus Tennstedt
    Waltraud Meier, London Philharmonic Orchestra, Eton College Boys Choir & London Philharmonic Choir, Klaus Tennstedt
    Michelle DeYoung, San Francisco Symphony, with Women of the SFS Chorus, the Pacific Boychoir and the San Francisco Girls Chorus, Michael Tilson Thomas (SACD)
    Polish National Radio Symphony Orchestra, Cracow Philharmonic Choir, Cracow Boys' Choir, Antoni Wit
    Lilli Paasikivi, Tiffin School Boys' Choir, Philharmonia Orchestra, Benjamin Zander (SACD)
    Birgit Remmert, Tonhalle Zurich, Zurcher Sangerknaben, Schweizer Kammerchor, David Zinman
    Kelley O’Connor, Dallas Symphony Orchestra, Women of the Dallas Symphony Chorus & Children’s Chorus of Greater Dallas, Jaap van Zweden *
  8. kimmiles

    kimmiles pfm Member

    Yes: that's quite a list and I wasn't expecting them all to be compared. BUT, to dismiss so many front-runners was unforgivable!!!
    I am positive that anyone who knows this symphony, whether they be 'classically trained' or not, would have been absolutely stunned to see some hugely respected versions just tossed away or not even mentioned (see my earlier post for examples!)
  9. alanbeeb

    alanbeeb pfm Member

    I haven't managed to listen to all of the programme - it stutters unacceptably on BBC sounds, at least it does for me - but I was glad it mentioned the Boulez/VPO recording, which is surprisingly good. You'd need at least 3 hours to do all the main contenders justice.
  10. Stunsworth

    Stunsworth pfm Member

    France Musique have a similar programme called 'La Tribune des Critiques de Disque" where a handful of commentators discuss 6 versions of a particular piece. The interesting thing is it's done without them being told what the 6 versions are - all is revealed after they've chosen their favorite version. That programme generally lasts two hours.
  11. davidjt

    davidjt pfm Member

    I've been listening to France Musique all morning, and their Radio France Concerts stream has been a delight. If only the BBC could run seven different streams on R3 instead of trying to compete with ClassicFM half the time! As things stand I can always find something to listen to on France Musique, just the occasional evening or lunchtime concert and Record Review on R3 if I remember to check the listings. (As mentioned above, just listening to RR for confirmation that yours is/are the best available recording(s) is bound to disappoint now and then. :()
  12. George J

    George J Herefordshire member

    I happen to adore the late Haydn Symphonies. Over the years I have owned several highly praised recordings of the Number 102 [and all the other last twelve], but nowadays have just two.

    Mogens Woldike with the Vienna State Opera Orchestra [the VPO by its other name, at the time exclusively under contract to Decca] which brings something special. Danish energy and musicology combined with the great Viennese tradition in a none-too-bad recording for its time on Vanguard CD.

    And the wonderful 1965 recording by Klemperer, who clearly relishes this music in a well paced and supremely balanced performance.

    Here for your delectation!

    Best wishes from George
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  13. kimmiles

    kimmiles pfm Member

    It ALMOST happened again this Saturday! The wonderful Purcell Dido and Aeneas was the subject but, what saved it in my very humble opinion, was that the main reviewer SOUNDED like an expert and gave really rational reasons for her selected comparison choices. She was interrupted so many times by Andrew McGregor that I was surprised that she didn't tell him to shut up!!!
    Yet again, I didn't agree with her final choice (I rarely do these days: I must be getting old!!!!) but the reasons that she gave for her selected choice almost made me go out and order it straight away!!! (I don't think that I can justify a fifth version!!! Or, maybe just ONE more?????)
  14. gustavm

    gustavm pfm Member

    Just in case you anyone missed my link in "Bargain Box Sets" the Chailly box set (Complete Mahler, Bruckner, Beethoven, Brahms +++) is now only £60 on Amazon - guess it won't stay at that for long....


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