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So that's the climate f****d then

Discussion in 'off topic' started by avole, Jun 1, 2017.

  1. Marky-Mark

    Marky-Mark pfm Member

    I actually mentioned this theory before somewhere in this thread with the admission I needed more time with it, which directly refutes your opening suggestion.

    I honestly don't understand how post #798 can be taken in any way other than a "Hey, this is a theory I find interesting. I've been exploring it lately, so here's a brief outline of it. Maybe check it out if you'd like" context unless there exists a preexisting prejudice that discounts it on face. That might explain the effort you took to explain your "big problem" with me rather than look at what I'm describing before dismissing it summarily, as you've pretty much done with every position I take not in lockstep with your own.

    My view of the impending climate catastrophe is shared by a lot of people, including many climate scientists. The gist of that view is that (a) there is no solution to what is baked-in already unless we could begin carbon capture at scale immediately (and we can't), and (b) the biggest obstacle to anything resembling mitigation of our dilemma is behavioral. The theory addresses that problem, and other important aspects of this calamity, head on. It's a dire conclusion, no doubt, but you don't have to wholeheartedly adopt a conclusion to find merit in the work.

    As for the actual theory you didn't bother with, as presented its not terribly difficult to understand. However, if you have deficiencies of knowledge in any of the areas discussed, such as natural selection, what is meant by 'overshoot' (peak oil etc.), and are willing to spend a little time getting acquainted with the basics of thermodynamics in the context of the relationships and interplay between all forms of energy including ourselves --somewhat complex, at least I find it so-- it's fascinating and compelling reading. To me, anyway. A kind suggestion would be that you simply ignore my views on this going forward.
  2. avole

    avole The wise never post on Internet forums

    With you, Mark, and unfortunately for more years than I care to remember. vuk is voicing the same thing many onus said all those years ago. I spent 25 years of my life in Australia, and there was heaps of talk and noise going on in the cities, where around 80% of the population live. Sadly, the minority who could do anything about it were the Packers, Murdochs, RTZs etc, in other words the mining companies and the media. To be fair, the ABC did its stuff, but, apart from the cricket, most people don't listen to it, except for when there's a Chernobyl or a new war breaks out. One group is missing from that list, and that is the farmers. Bright farmers got rich by putting their cattle into feed lots to sell the beef to Macdo, irrigating, spraying and so forth. The only plus for the environment, and perhaps the greatest success, given the impact when the others on the planet begin to decay, remains the single nuclear reactor not far from Sydney, Lucas Heights. However, the other side of the coin is that Australian burns coal for its power stations, has huge open cut mines, and sell an enormous amount of coal to other countries. Not convinced that nuclear power is ever going to be a solution, but not having it seems just as bad.

    vuk's solution is a simplistic pipe dream. Even if all the defence budgets in the world went into research, the impact overall would be minimal, plus there's the awkward fact that we pretty much know already what could reverse a downward trend in many areas.
    Marky-Mark likes this.
  3. Marky-Mark

    Marky-Mark pfm Member

    I read a reasoned opinion of the acceptance process people go through with this early on. The author (I think it was Chefurka) used a ladder metaphor to describe it, where the first stages move from basic awareness to the recognition of a serious but single problem, in this case the climate, and then on to the higher rungs where there's a realization of the vast interconnectedness of several problems occurring simultaneously, and then finally the acceptance that it's actually a predicament rather than a problem, and one that it is inclusive to every aspect of life on earth as we know it. At that point the concept of there being a solution strikes you as ridiculous.

    It's difficult to wrap a head around, that's for sure. It causes me a lot of stress not only reading about it every day, but seeing the changes with my own eyes. I've learned to take breaks but I need to do more of that since I tend to bite into this stuff like a Rottweiler.

    Back on topic, this is interesting
  4. vuk

    vuk \o/ choose anarchy

    i didn't give "a solution".
  5. russel

    russel ./_dazed_and_confused

    The UK spends more on petfood than the worldwide research budget for fusion, having 10% of the defence budget would be massive.
  6. avole

    avole The wise never post on Internet forums

    You most certainly did. Rather than argue the toss, just leave it for once. We are all human, and therefore making mistakes is part of that basic humanity. Just as a reminder:
  7. vuk

    vuk \o/ choose anarchy

    i didn't give A / ONE solution, which your phrasing implied. i suggested a few things we could do to get the ball rolling toward a solution.
  8. avole

    avole The wise never post on Internet forums

    You won’t win on that one, vuk because even on that you are simply wrong. Why not just admit it. No-one’s going to ignore you from now on, you haven’t blown your credibility with one slip. I mean, look at how you wrote that last paragraph, then look at your denial. A newcomer to pfm would simply say your response was paltering with the truth, and your laughable defence had you hoist on your own petard.

    I’ll give you a hint though. If you continue trying to defend the indefensible, it will have an effect on your supporters and credibiliiy.
  9. Marky-Mark

    Marky-Mark pfm Member

    That's ^^ actually a somewhat decent analog to climate collapse since it derives from a lack of system level thought from within the same system.
  10. Joe P

    Joe P certified Buffologist / mod

    After 15+ years of posting about climate change on pink fish, most fishies — save Paul R and that bloke who has weird ideas about debt— think climate change is happening, we're the cause, and that it's gonna be bad. However, the debate is now at the stage where there's nothing we can do about climate change because, well, humans. We're going to have to live — or not — with its consequences.

    Man, to think I wore out seven keyboards over this.

    Mr Cat likes this.
  11. DonQuixote99

    DonQuixote99 pfm Member

    Nothing is done about climate change, but we must be sure to denounce each other mightily on the interweb!

    I'm coming around to Marky-Markian despair.
  12. Marky-Mark

    Marky-Mark pfm Member

    I'm not really so much in despair, though I do feel that from time to time, but rather it's an odd mix of fear, bemusement and feeling incredulous.

    As for the denouncement thing, I think a good deal of that comes from self-projection. I've noticed that when I'll write long-winded the response from a few posters implies a POV that I'm not including myself in anything taken as an indictment. Or maybe the preachy effect of it obscures any point I'm trying to make.

    That's not to say I don't occasionally indirectly indict -- who here doesn't? -- but most of the time any viewpoint I offer that includes "people" do or don't / this or that, I'm including myself.
  13. avole

    avole The wise never post on Internet forums

    Well you’d know more about that than most!
  14. avole

    avole The wise never post on Internet forums

    People like short, sharp, bit-sized approach to facts now. They also don’t like the truth, especially when it’s backed up by cogent argument and facts.

    I do agree, though, long-winded = read first and last paragraph and guess the rest for many. Incredulity, more amazement in some cases. I try not to denounce, merely point out a few insistencies, but, once every x months a statement is made that makes your jaw drop. No names, no packdrill.

    Then again, it’s controversy that adds to the ‘fun’ of forums. I’m only glad that I wasn’t stupid anough to volunteer to run one.
  15. Joe P

    Joe P certified Buffologist / mod

    It's not an entirely analogous situation, but back in the 1980s, after years of scientists and activists sounding alarms about CFCs depleting the ozone layer, all that research and effort led to the Montreal Protocol, which effectively stopped production of ozone-depleting gases.

    The gases that had been emitted to that point continued to split up O3 molecules in the atmosphere, so ozone depletion continued for some time after CFCs were phased out of production. But, slowly, the ozone layer started to repair itself.

    Phasing out carbon is a much larger problem, with monumentally more vested interests digging in their heels, but do you really believe if we faced an existential threat we'd do absolutely nothing? Well, I think Trump, his supporters and Republicans would happily do nothing, but those dinosaurs will go extinct at some point and be replaced with the Greta Thunbergs of his world.

  16. Joe P

    Joe P certified Buffologist / mod


    Man, that's cold shit. I hope Tony doesn't see it.

  17. DonQuixote99

    DonQuixote99 pfm Member

    If one denounces, to include 'implying a POV that does not include oneself in anything taken as an indictment,' one should expect nothing but a defensive response. I know this, but I'm still pretty likely to be moved by an impulse to tell a wrong person that they are such. My enlightenment proceeds by fits and starts.
  18. avole

    avole The wise never post on Internet forums

    Wasn’t meant to be. most people knew from my first post onwards that you couldn’t pick a self confessed idiot like me to run a forum, way too unreliable. Fun was in inverted commas because I don’t think they are fun at all, as the few outbursts from the usually restrained mods here shows. The only reason most of us argumentative bastards are on here is thanks to wise moderation.
  19. TheDecameron

    TheDecameron Unicorns fart glitter.

    Avole, what’s going on with you at the moment?
  20. Marky-Mark

    Marky-Mark pfm Member

    I'm very likely to be moved by that impulse!

    In all honesty, I do have a bone up my ass for social media. There's no doubt about that. After spending a lot of time with it, I came to loathe the usual suspectory and dropped the entire social media grid for the most part. Then my real world shrunk again in a devastating way, and even though I rarely tire of my own company, arguing with myself strikes me as a potentially worrying turn!

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