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Supernait 3 on way?

Discussion in 'audio' started by JoeJoe, Jun 26, 2019.

  1. Craig B

    Craig B Re:trophile

    Input voltage 'suitability' values don't really tell the whole story. What counts are input sensitivity (typically 75mV, 47kΩ on line in for all NACs and NAITs in the past, but, apparently, 130mV for SN3) and overload margin (typically 40dB on all inputs at all audio frequencies).

    WRT phono, Naim do appear to be barking up a rather elderly tree with their new SUPERNAIT 3...
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
  2. barryb

    barryb pfm Member

    470pf seems high - what's the thinking behind that?

    Also, didn't a lot of Naim's engineering pedigree jump ship?
     
  3. Craig B

    Craig B Re:trophile

    Perhaps new Naim have a thing for Grado Fluxbridgers.
     
  4. matteo.renesto

    matteo.renesto Only '80's

    I had been told by Naim that 470pF is the same value of the current Stageline N

    I’m curious to know the cartridge they used for tests though.

    M.
     
  5. Allaboutmusic

    Allaboutmusic pfm Member

    I don't really understand the capacitance but asked naim about the input voltages and they do seem low. Max 3V for line in and max 7.5mV for phono. In comparison rega is something like 10V line and 10mV phono before overloading
     
  6. Craig B

    Craig B Re:trophile

    Sounds about right (or half wrong, if SN3 line input sensitivity is actually 130mV with the same overload margin).

    Naim's stated line input sensitivity was always 75mV with overload margins being 40dB on all inputs; so, the quoted max 3V would be accurate, as .075V x 40 = 3V.

    MM (NA322) input sensitivity was 2mV 47kOhms with the same overload margin; .002 x 40 = .08 (or 8mV; close enough to the stated 7.5mV, aka .075V).

    It is the stated phono input capacitance that intrigues, as this demonstrates that Naim have gradually become somewhat out of touch with the electrical requirements of the typical MM phono cartridge wrt providing a more even bandwidth response, particularly at HF. Hence my comment above, as a typical Grado IM (i.e Induced Magnet, aka MI or Moving Iron, aka Grado 'Fluxbridger') is rated 5mV and is relatively insensitive to capacitive loading (as are Nagaoka MP Series but these are 3mV output).
     
  7. Allaboutmusic

    Allaboutmusic pfm Member

    Interesting. Any idea how my cartridge would perform, do you believe it would cause an issue? I have the rega exact, here is a link to the specs. Not sure if it gives you enough to go on though

    http://www.rega.co.uk/exact.html
     
  8. Ptah

    Ptah pfm Member

    Dunno but the demo pic shows the LP12 Majik, so maybe a Linn Adikt.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
    matteo.renesto likes this.
  9. Craig B

    Craig B Re:trophile

    When the manufacturer only lists 6 technical specifications, including among them 'colour' and 'fixing', it is difficult to generalize/hazard a guess, other than to say that with an output rating of 6.8 - 7.2mV it should play loud enough without having to twist the knob fully clockwise!:)

    Leaving subjective comments aside, objectively, it is important to make a distinction between cartridge output/phono input sensitivity and gain vs. cartridge electrical loading requirements for best performance.

    WRT output/gain; with Naim's comment that 'the gain is perfect for 5mV moving magnet cartridges', combined with their history of providing 40dB of overload margin, it is hard to imagine that a worst case scenario of an Exact, even one with a high side 7.5mV output, would cause overload distortion; certainly, it won't be as hair trigger as CD on some Naim amps either.

    WRT phono stage input loading, it is more a case of optimizing frequency response at HF vs. avoiding audible ringing in extreme cases.

    Not a very 'exact' method, but reading between the Rega product specifications should suggest a preferred range. Fono MM input loading, for example, is listed as 47kΩ in parallel with 100pF capacitance. By comparison, Brio (2017) is rated 47kΩ in parallel with 220pF. In either case, on the loading side one must add in tonearm cable capacitance. The old RB300 'improved' grey lead measured 85pF from RCAs to arm pillar plug terminals; plus roughly 15pF internal, so circa 100pF. Therefore, an Exact into Fono MM should be presented with a capacitive load of 200pF, whereas, into a current Brio the total is 320pF. I suspect that Rega have chosen these values plus a high overload margin (40dB), as they want their phono stages and integrated amps to appeal to a wide market regardless of whether or not their own very high output MM cartridges are used (a lowish 2.5mV, as specified for Carbon, for example).

    Whether an Exact would perform as well with the 470pF of Naim (circa 570pF total) is a question worth pursuing before committing to purchase. A fellow who posted on the Graham Slee forum measured the internal resistance of both his Elys and Exact and then estimated the internal inductance by plotting the impedance/frequency graph. He measured 165R and subsequently determined 100mH. With the latter value it is possible to calculate the resonant peak frequency for various capacitive loadings. For example, combining an internal inductance of 100mH with 570pF puts the HF resonance peak up to 21.1kHz, well above the audible range. For reference, the resonant frequency is given by the following equation (where L = internal inductance and C = capacitance):

    [​IMG]

    Typically, the larger the internal inductance, or the larger the capacitance, the lower the frequency of the resonant peak within the audible band (also increasing in amplitude along with the reduction of frequency point); however, dramatically lowering one variable whilst increasing the other can have the opposite effect, as is the case of Exact into Naim above. That is, assuming an internal inductance of 100mH to be correct.

    P.S. This is the closest thing to full specifications that Rega (via their American distributor, The Sound Organisation USA) has published for dealers...
    https://soundorg.com/content/Rega_Info/Rega-Full-Line-Comparison-Chart-July-2017.pdf
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
    matteo.renesto and Allaboutmusic like this.
  10. Craig B

    Craig B Re:trophile

    Although Linn stopped publishing the output voltage of Adikt on their web site at some point, the included pictographic instruction sheet lists output voltage as the same 6.5mV +/-1.5 dB as it is for the Goldring 1000 Series (with its Gyger II tip, Adikt is essentially a 1012GX with built-in overhang and offset alignment for Linn geometry tonearms).

    Recommended load capacitance is quoted as 150 - 200pF (again same as Goldring's) so it's likely to be either; 1) not the exact cartridge Naim had in mind, or 2) that Naim haven't given much thought to lowering the input capacitance of their MM circuits since they began making them back in the 1970s. I suspect both to be true.

    Interestingly, internal inductance is 570mH for the Goldring 1000 Series generator, so, with an expected total capacitance of 570pF with Naim (including typical tonearm wiring), the resonant peak lands at 8.8kHz. Perfect for us aging Linn/Naim aficionados with onset HF hearing loss.

    On the other hand, plug Adikt into Fono MM (typically 200pF total) and get a reasonable 14.9kHz resonant peak.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
    matteo.renesto and Allaboutmusic like this.
  11. Olsen

    Olsen pfm Member

    I read somewhere Naim used a Planar 3/Elys or Planar 1/Carbon (AT3600) as this seem to be widely used kit

    Guess a Project/Ortofon 2M or AT95 too

    They now seem to be looking at a wider customer base rather than their previous analog attempt (Superline, Aro)
     
  12. Ptah

    Ptah pfm Member

    Not just that - the latest generation of 'budget' turntables and phono stages are many times better than 20 or 30 years ago.
     
  13. PerF

    PerF Member

    I partly agree

    My new Planar 1 sound better than an old P3 from the 90'ies
    Maybe an unfair compare

    My old Fono is still going strong, not sure how much these are changed apart from the looks
     
  14. Strictly Stereo

    Strictly Stereo Trade: Strictly Stereo

    It is an Adikt.
     
  15. Craig B

    Craig B Re:trophile

    Yes, and it should sound like one whom has just scored a bag of speed too!
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2019
  16. cromodora

    cromodora foshfishfie

    The Supernait 3 innard pics.
    Opamp phonostage in a Naim?
    Sacrilegious!
     
  17. Musicraft

    Musicraft Trade: Musicraft

    Just received our new SuperNait 3 :) chilling out on top of JL Audio's Reference Gotham v2 subwoofer :cool:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    jackbarron likes this.
  18. Whatsisnaim

    Whatsisnaim pfm Member

    The UK RRP is a little higher than it was for the SN2. I would imagine the lower US price is largely down to weakness of Sterling, but perhaps there is also a rethink going on with the distributors.
     
  19. Craig B

    Craig B Re:trophile

    Super Nait and the Daleks, good name for a rockabilly band!
     

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